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Offline Understudy

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moving a feral queen
« on: December 03, 2006, 07:23:02 pm »
Well I had a brillant idea that didn't work so well.
I have a neighbor who has a fereal colony living in the wall of her house. It is a concrete cinder block wall and the bees seem very happy there. They move in and out through the sophet. So I had a brillant idea. I would put the bee box under where  they came in and out of and force bee traffic through the bee hive box. We put ten frames in the bee box and the bees went to work on them and built up comb very quickly. An encouraging sign in my eyes. The bees were left alone to try to encourage the bees to move the queen to move to the bee box. After two months we had 10 frames of honey and not one frame of brood. The bees made great honey but didn't move the queen. We took half the frames and replaced them with fresh frames and now I am up for suggestion on how to encourage the queen to move into her new home.

You can see what I did here:
http://www.brendhanhorne.com/coppermine_dir/thumbnails.php?album=63

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Offline Jerrymac

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2006, 08:08:09 pm »
Seems you got a good deal going on. You get all that honey and don't have to mess with the brood.

Most times you have to tear into the wall to get to the queen.

I have heard of a "knock" method where you knock on the tree trunk (wall) and this would drive the bees, queen and all, into the new box. Never tried it.

Could rig up a bee escape where the bees leave and can't get back in. Still going through your box, and they will make a home there. Place some brood comb from another hive in there with nurse bees and they will raise a new queen. Chances are the old queen may not move out of the wall with this method. But as the new bees emerge from their combs and head out to forage, they also can not return. The queen might run out of food and care givers and come out to see what is going on or she just starves. When no more bees are comeing out of the wall, remove the bee escape and let the bees rob out what ever stores might be left in the wall.
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Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2006, 08:10:11 pm »
Very nice pics Brendhan.  You did accomplish something though.  Think of all the honey that you got.  You are a lucky person.  Great day. Cindi
There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2006, 08:14:31 pm »
Seems you got a good deal going on. You get all that honey and don't have to mess with the brood.

Most times you have to tear into the wall to get to the queen.

I have heard of a "knock" method where you knock on the tree trunk (wall) and this would drive the bees, queen and all, into the new box. Never tried it.

Could rig up a bee escape where the bees leave and can't get back in. Still going through your box, and they will make a home there. Place some brood comb from another hive in there with nurse bees and they will raise a new queen. Chances are the old queen may not move out of the wall with this method. But as the new bees emerge from their combs and head out to forage, they also can not return. The queen might run out of food and care givers and come out to see what is going on or she just starves. When no more bees are comeing out of the wall, remove the bee escape and let the bees rob out what ever stores might be left in the wall.

Jerrymac
Great innovation.  I read about this "knocking" to get the bees out of a place, it was referred to as "driving the bees".  Interesting stuff, this knocking must scare them out of where they live.  Great day.  Cindi
There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

Offline Understudy

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2006, 08:41:45 pm »
Where can I find out more about this knocking method?
How long do I knock?
How loud?
How frequent is the beat?
I would like to do this without putting holes in the wall.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2006, 08:48:09 pm »
Brendhan, I can't tell you.  I read it in my travels through books, it would have been in an old, old book, I like to read those.  Probably one by Langstroth on the Hive and Honeybee probably.  You will probably get some other great responses from other forum members.  Great day, good luck. Cindi
There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

Offline Jerrymac

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2006, 12:13:38 am »
Start here.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=2350.0

It is also called drumming
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Offline Jacmar

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2006, 11:01:39 am »
Brendhan,

Below is a section taken from my ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture 40th Edition on Page 142. Hope my typing is good enough not to miss anything.

As written;

DRUMMING - If one beats rhythmically on the side of a honey bee hive,gum,box hive or natural nest, the bees will respond by moving upward. The Queen and the drones will follow the workers, If a covered, empty super or box is placed above an opened hive, the bees will march into it in a orderly fashion in a matter of several minutes. This process, called drumming, is one method commenly used to force bees out of a fixed comb hive. It is important to smoke the the bees moderatley before starting the beating process, but once the bees start to move further smoking is not necessary. An uncoordinated beating will arouse the guard bees and cause them to attack but a rhythmic one does not. One may drum with bare hands, a stick, or other instrument, a rubber mallet works well.

The origin of drumming is unknown, but the method is widely used in Europe to drive bees out of straw skeps and other contrivances used as hives several hundred years ago. It is curious that bees will abandon brood when drummed, something they are not prone to do under ordinary circumstances.

Some producers of package bees place a queen excluder over a colony and drum the bees up into the empty super. The bees are shaken from the super into a package. The excluder prevents the Queen and drones from moving upward into the empty box. If the drumming is done in the middle of the day, the older bees are out foraging and the package is made up of young bees. This method of making packages is safe, fast, and convenient.

We do not know why bees respond as they do to drumming. Honey bees can detect substrate borne vibrations, and certain frquencies will cause them to freze or stand motionless on a comb. The sensory organs involved are apparently located on the feet. How far bees will move when drummed has never been tested.

End of section.

The only problem I see from what is written above is that if all the bees and queen move when drumming and leave the brood nest, you would have to do this a couple of times or more to get the new bees. Short of that, if you were sure you had drummed the queen out, would be to kill off what might be left in the block wall.

Hope this helps you.

Jack

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Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2006, 01:13:08 pm »
Brendhan,

Below is a section taken from my ABC and XYZ of Bee Culture 40th Edition on Page 142. Hope my typing is good enough not to miss anything.

As written;

DRUMMING - If one beats rhythmically on the side of a honey bee hive,gum,box hive or natural nest, the bees will respond by moving upward. The Queen and the drones will follow the workers, If a covered, empty super or box is placed above an opened hive, the bees will march into it in a orderly fashion in a matter of several minutes. This process, called drumming, is one method commenly used to force bees out of a fixed comb hive. It is important to smoke the the bees moderatley before starting the beating process, but once the bees start to move further smoking is not necessary. An uncoordinated beating will arouse the guard bees and cause them to attack but a rhythmic one does not. One may drum with bare hands, a stick, or other instrument, a rubber mallet works well.

The origin of drumming is unknown, but the method is widely used in Europe to drive bees out of straw skeps and other contrivances used as hives several hundred years ago. It is curious that bees will abandon brood when drummed, something they are not prone to do under ordinary circumstances.

Some producers of package bees place a queen excluder over a colony and drum the bees up into the empty super. The bees are shaken from the super into a package. The excluder prevents the Queen and drones from moving upward into the empty box. If the drumming is done in the middle of the day, the older bees are out foraging and the package is made up of young bees. This method of making packages is safe, fast, and convenient.

We do not know why bees respond as they do to drumming. Honey bees can detect substrate borne vibrations, and certain frquencies will cause them to freze or stand motionless on a comb. The sensory organs involved are apparently located on the feet. How far bees will move when drummed has never been tested.

End of section.

The only problem I see from what is written above is that if all the bees and queen move when drumming and leave the brood nest, you would have to do this a couple of times or more to get the new bees. Short of that, if you were sure you had drummed the queen out, would be to kill off what might be left in the block wall.

Hope this helps you.

Jack



Jack, now that was a very interesting piece of information from the book of ABC and XYZ, that you spent the time typing out (good for you).  I have an old version of the ABC...written in 1845.  I would  love to get my hands on the 40th edition, like you have.  I will be on the lookout.  The part your wrote about the bees being able to detect substrate born forms of vibration and certain  frequencies, some frequencies that may make them freeze or stand motionless,  is more than interesting.  Why I say so will follow:  The queen's piping is also a phenomenon, she has a "voice" which is spoken about in the old ABC and XYZ.  When a virgin queen is the first to emerge from her cell, she emits a sound by placing her thorax on the comb and my understanding is that she vibrates her thorax and this makes a sound that is her "war cry", called piping (or another word used is "quacking") to other emerging queens that are still imprisoned in their cells before birth.  It is her "death call".  The other queens still  not emerged, may respond too.  I have researched this queen's "piping" indepth and have actually pulled a "wav" file off the internet of this sound that someone had recorded.  Fascinating.  Apparently when the queen uses her "voice", the bees will freeze temporarily, stand still. I will write more of my experience of the queen piping later, because I witnessed this personally this summer, I don't have time right now, but I will.  It should be an interesting read, but because my story will be somewhat of a lengthy one, I would want to compose it in word first and then paste it into a forum post.  Great day!!!  Cindi
There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

Offline Scadsobees

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2006, 02:49:43 pm »
I assume that you aren't trapping them with a wire screen cone?  Just letting them use the added supers as a "front porch"?

You will probably have some trouble luring the queen out in that situation.  You very well might end up without the queen.

You could also try....(after swarm season and you've captured the swarms, of course! :-D )
Add some brood to the box of frames.  The queen might view the "front porch" as a brood chamber.  Currently she has all she needs in the wall...the extra is just storage.

Adding drone comb?  They have some in the wall chamber, but my queens will travel up through 3 full supers to lay in a frame of drone comb in a super.  Who knows what might happen....

If nothing else...wire cone/screen cone the entrance, and add a frame or 2 of eggs to the boxes and have them raise their own queen.  Then let them rob out the cavity and then seal it shut so they don't come back.

She may be a feral queen, but the chances are good that she is just from a swarm from a domesticated source anyway.  *Probably* not a great loss.

-rick
Rick

Offline Jacmar

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #10 on: December 28, 2006, 09:52:43 am »
Brendhan

Haven't heard anymore on your trapping situation. Did you ever try the drumming of the hive to see if it works ???

Jack
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Offline Understudy

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #11 on: December 28, 2006, 01:32:57 pm »
I have been traveling to Atlanta and a few other cities and am suppose to be on vacation this week. I am out of town with the wife. :)

I have not had a chance to implement it. I would like to try it with a small motor so I can leave to tap for a 24 hour period because I would like the bees to move the queen out also. And she deep in the wall.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
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Offline Finsky

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #12 on: December 28, 2006, 02:38:27 pm »


If you put open brood frame into your box bees occupy  faster the box. If you se queen in the box you may stop it's route back with exluder.

Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2006, 12:39:39 am »
If you put open brood frame into your box bees occupy  faster the box. If you se queen in the box you may stop it's route back with exluder.

Finsky, the bees go to open brood more quickly because of the higher need to keep open brood warmer than capped brood???  Are the open brood more susceptible to cold than ones that have a little more warmth by the capping?  Great day. Cindi

There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

Offline Finsky

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2006, 12:49:57 am »

Open brood need nurser bees which feed larvae. It is easy to queen come and lay eggs among larvae. If you have only capped brood bees fill cells with honey.

Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2006, 12:59:00 am »

Open brood need nurser bees which feed larvae. It is easy to queen come and lay eggs among larvae. If you have only capped brood bees fill cells with honey.

Absolutely, I knew that but just did not think of it at the time.  Once the cell is capped, the bees pretty much have no duty to that baby in capped cell, right?

Do the bees have to physically cover capped brood to keep it warm?  Or is it the internal temperature of the brood chamber enough to keep capped brood warm?

It is easy to queen come and lay eggs among larvae
Do not understand what you say.  Do you mean the queen lays more eggs in the same cell as larvae.  Sorry, not understanding your saying.  Great day. Cindi
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Offline Finsky

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2006, 01:47:21 am »

I mean that queen likes to lay eggs on area where is open brood.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2006, 08:36:39 am »
The cone method would be your best bet in a situation like this if you don't want to tear open the soffit.

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Offline Cindi

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Re: moving a feral queen
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2006, 10:47:43 am »

I mean that queen likes to lay eggs on area where is open brood.
Finsky, OK, that makes sense now.  Great day. Cindi
There are strange things done in the midnight sun by the men who moil for gold.  The Arctic trails have their secret tales that would make your blood run cold.  The Northern Lights have seen queer sights, but the queerest they ever did see, what the night on the marge of Lake Lebarge, I cremated Sam McGee.  Robert Service

 

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