Author Topic: Why are they creating queen cells in this situation? (Read 6541 times)

Duane · « **on:** May 24, 2016, 09:20:21 pm »

This is the hive which I started late summer. They only were on a few frames, I was concerned about their food, so gave them some sugar water before winter. Then it looked they were basically empty so added an empty box to put dry sugar on top of the frames through the winter. Mid April, they still had empty space in the bottom, noticed not the best brood pattern. I thought about taking the top box off, but worried that would upset their "plans"? So I added empty frames to it. (Foundationless) By first of May, noticed nice brood pattern, still space in the bottom, and not started in the top. A week later, 8 frames of the bottom 8 frame box had brood. Moved one frame up to the still empty top box. Middle of May they had 2 additional frames going with brood in the top box. That's when I noticed a queen cup. Which looked like it had an egg in it.

Now I've heard they start them and tear them down. But would they tear down one with an egg in it? Then I checked again Sunday, and the cup is now a cell. I checked through the bottom and found several queen cells, mostly along the bottom area, some in the middle. None were capped, but one was narrowing towards the end. I looked through and could not find the queen. I did see eggs in the top box and checked it again for the queen, but no luck. So many bees, hard to see the comb. And it was getting late. I didn't know what to do, so closed it back up, but worried I was going to lose half or more of my bees. Then I started thinking, if I just moved half to a new box, I would only lose a quarter of the bees. Why, if I moved them into three boxes, then I'd only lose 1/6 of my bees. Am I thinking right? So early Monday, I split the 12 frames up into 3 boxes. More than one cell in each. Still didn't see the queen, but there were still eggs. So many bees!

Questions:
Why did they create queen cells with plenty of, at least upper space, throughout most of the winter?

What will happen, assuming the queen is still there somewhere, when one of the 4 frame box's queen cells hatch out with the queen in it? Will they take half the 4 frames of bees and leave? Or could the queen kill the queen cell before it hatches? How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?

With my other 1 box hive, I had added an empty box of empty frames to it. I noticed their bottom box is full now, so I moved one frame of brood up to the top box. Is this what you have to do, to suggest they can use the top box when there's just empty frames up there?

(The more I do bees, the more it seems like an art rather than a science!)

Psparr · « **Reply #1 on:** May 24, 2016, 09:37:31 pm »

They were full on the drawn frames they had available, that started the swarm. The bees will draw out comb on their own schedule. Your splits should stay put maybe. When you move frames up, move two up with a foundation less frame between. Better chance of drawing it out.
Leave them alone until the queen should be laying.

cao · « **Reply #2 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:08:42 am »

>Why did they create queen cells with plenty of, at least upper space, throughout most of the winter?

If the queen is honey/nectar bound they will start the swarming process especially this time of year. Remember swarming is how they reproduce.

>What will happen, assuming the queen is still there somewhere, when one of the 4 frame box's queen cells hatch out with the queen in it? Will they take half the 4 frames of bees and leave? Or could the queen kill the queen cell before it hatches? How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?

Provided the bees feel that they now have enough room the first queen that hatches wil kill the rest. A queen cell is capped in 7 days and hatches 7 days later +/- a day. So I would leave them be for at least two weeks maybe 3. Give the queen(s) time to get mated and start laying.

sc-bee · « **Reply #3 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:55:23 am »

How bad do you want to find the queen and save her if she is still there? Do you know what a shaker box is?

Acebird · « **Reply #4 on:** May 25, 2016, 08:39:53 am »

Quote from: Duane on May 24, 2016, 09:20:21 pm

How often should I keep looking through trying to find the queen?

Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.

Duane · « **Reply #5 on:** May 25, 2016, 10:12:22 am »

Quote from: Acebird on May 25, 2016, 08:39:53 am

Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.

I like that!

Ok, it seems like there was no place for the queen to lay so they are swarming. Still not sure why they didn't create new space in the top box for the queen to lay. But now I know I need to move frames up, or have empty comb above. The other box, by moving one frame up, I added an empty below, so that should hold them a couple of days. I'm wondering, that although people say they move up or down, but if there's no comb up or down, they move sideways until the hit the edges and then they think they're done. And maybe, leaving them in an upper box after the winter, they will move down easier than up?

Anyway, I've read about the shaker boxes, but I don't have a queen excluder. Not sure I would want to go to that extreme anyway. If I find her, I would remove the queen cells from that box. But my question is, the one with the queen and only 4 frames of brood and a queen cell, will she still leave?

cao · « **Reply #6 on:** May 25, 2016, 10:38:43 am »

Quote from: Duane on May 25, 2016, 10:12:22 am

But my question is, the one with the queen and only 4 frames of brood and a queen cell, will she still leave?

Probably not. But sometimes bees don't follow the rules.

Acebird · « **Reply #7 on:** May 25, 2016, 12:28:41 pm »

Quote from: Duane on May 25, 2016, 10:12:22 am

I'm wondering, that although people say they move up or down, but if there's no comb up or down, they move sideways until the hit the edges and then they think they're done.

Remember that it is a colony and the colony makes the decisions not the queen. If they have decided to make queen cells they have decided to swarm and changing their mind is not easy. They don't necessarily have to fill out all the side frames to make that decision. It is far easier to prevent the situations that encourage swarming then to stop one. The only way the broodnest gets filled up is if the bees are backfilling with nectar. It will not be capped because when they swarm they will consume that nectar and thereby create space for the new queen.
Splits work to some degree because essentially you are making man made swarms.

Duane · « **Reply #8 on:** May 26, 2016, 09:53:29 am »

I didn't really notice much nectar. Just brood from side to side. Am I missing something? Like I imagine by "backfilling", it means that as the brood hatch out, they fill the frames with nectar. I didn't see that.

Acebird · « **Reply #9 on:** May 26, 2016, 10:11:39 am »

I think we need pictures of each hive separately to sort out what you have. I would say it is unusual for a colony to fill a hive with brood and have no food source. And then make a plan to swarm??? These are variables I am not familiar with.

sc-bee · « **Reply #10 on:** May 26, 2016, 12:20:56 pm »

Quote from: Acebird on May 25, 2016, 08:39:53 am

Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?
Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.

I must have missed something in the translation of the long original post... I would put her in a split without cells...in particular if she is a good queen... did I miss something?

Duane · « **Reply #11 on:** May 26, 2016, 06:02:27 pm »

You might have missed, that I haven't found her. And if I did, I would put her in a box without the cells. But what do I do in the meantime, I split them anyway. Now if I look through the three boxes, there should be no eggs. So if I find eggs, then I know where the queen is. However, several suggested I leave them alone. I'm thinking about at least switching positions to even out the workforce. The cells should have almost a week before hatching.

As far as food source, they had some honey cells among the brood, but it seemed to me it was a hand to mouth thing, no excess.

sc-bee · « **Reply #12 on:** May 26, 2016, 06:42:10 pm »

Quote from: Duane on May 26, 2016, 06:02:27 pm

You might have missed, that I haven't found her. And if I did, I would put her in a box without the cells. But what do I do in the meantime, I split them anyway. Now if I look through the three boxes, there should be no eggs. So if I find eggs, then I know where the queen is. However, several suggested I leave them alone. I'm thinking about at least switching positions to even out the workforce. The cells should have almost a week before hatching.

As far as food source, they had some honey cells among the brood, but it seemed to me it was a hand to mouth thing, no excess.

No I didn't miss it. Replier stated Where did that get you? What will you do if you find her?

Put her in a nuc by herself that where it would get you...

Acebird · « **Reply #13 on:** May 26, 2016, 07:15:31 pm »

SC he has already put her in a nuc by herself and hasn't found her yet. Do you see how easy a solution that was?

Dallasbeek · « **Reply #14 on:** May 26, 2016, 07:22:20 pm »

OldMech · « **Reply #15 on:** May 26, 2016, 07:41:04 pm »

Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.

Well said Acebird.. So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL

Acebird · « **Reply #16 on:** May 26, 2016, 07:44:43 pm »

Quote from: OldMech on May 26, 2016, 07:41:04 pm

So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL

Absolutely not otherwise why would we all be here discussing what we think the variables are?

OldMech · « **Reply #17 on:** May 26, 2016, 07:49:29 pm »

Dont know why that posted.. was not done typing.. finished and it would not let me post??? odd.. anyhow...

Beekeeping is a science with an infinite amount of variables. The art is figuring out the variables.

Well said Acebird.. So.... has anyone figured out all the variables yet??? LOL

I don't think you did a bad thing... As Acebird said.. there are SO MANY Variables... If you broke the hives down, the bees with the queen "may" tear down the queen cells, they "may" still swarm... I have made a nuc with a queen and several frames of brood as an artificial swarm to keep them from swarming, and four days later they swarmed anyhow.. the entire nuc with the old queen, leaving about a dozen bees behind with the brood... No eggs... That one left me scratching my head.
As I see it, you have played the odds.. It is how I manage my bees.. Reduce the odds to the best of my ability, and deal with what comes after that. You did this, you have done what you can.. Have you considered that they DID swarm already since you cant find the queen? It is possible, though they usually wait until at least a couple cells are capped before swarming, it is by no means a rule they follow.
IF.. you lose a swarm, you have still gained and extra hive, maybe two!

Acebird · « **Reply #18 on:** May 26, 2016, 08:09:37 pm »

Quote

Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

I just noticed this. If you are looking for comfort I suggest Southern with a little ice. Sip it slowly until you feel the comfort. MM good. Not to much though if you are working your bees. They don't like a clumsy beekeeper.

Duane · « **Reply #19 on:** May 26, 2016, 08:26:56 pm »

Yes, I had thought they may have already swarmed. I am hoping not. I did see eggs, so only missed it by days.

That is interesting that bees will leave a nuc with brood behind without a chance of raising their own queen because they had made up their minds to swarm. So I guess nothing is absolute. At that rate, I might really need to put the queen in a nuc by herself! But then who knows, they may swarm without a queen, huh?

About queen cups and cells. Are you saying they may tear them down even with an egg or larva in them? Just wanting to know what it means when I see it.