Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive  (Read 4865 times)

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« on: May 09, 2016, 09:01:50 pm »
I got 5 packages on 14 Apr? 4 hives are doing great. One hive either killed their new queen or she is not bred. The photo is what I found today after finding larva a week ago. 3 frames of drone larva

Lots of newbie questions and concerns?

I spoke with my supplier and am going up Wednesday morning and get a queen. He told me to dump the hive at least 50 yards away since there are laying workers. Laying workers lose their ability to fly. At least that is the way I understand it. True?

While I take the hive away to be dumped my dad is going to put a new hive I prepare with the queen on the stand. The good flying workers will return to the new hive. Thats all I've worked out so far.

My concerns... it has been 25 days and they are starting fresh, it will be another 20+ days before brood the new queen lays will hatch.

Should I put a frame of capped brood from my strongest hive in the new hive? Or a couple?

You know how bees will pull wax on both sides of the frame that is next to the side of a hive but the queen usually only lays on the side away from the wood? The side next to the wood usually has pulled wax with nectar and pollen.

Maybe I can get 3 frames like this from 3 of my hives? The new hive will then have 1.5 frames of capped brood total and 1.5 frames of pulled wax with pollen/nectar.

Also, what about all the pollen and nectar stores that are in the hive now? Should I kill all the drones and put some of those frames in the new hive? How long does it take for larva/eggs to die on a frame out of the hive and not cared for?

Thoughts anyone?

Offline Psparr

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 609
  • Gender: Male
Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2016, 09:44:12 pm »
After you dump them I would wait a day before putting the queen cage in. They may try to kill the new queen if they're not "queenless first". If there's not much in the way of  population, you could skip the  queen and just shake them and remove the hive. They will find a new hive to go to. Then when you feel your ready, you can split a strong hive.

Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2016, 09:56:05 pm »
Your concerns about your bees getting old are valid. Adding brood from your other hives is a good idea. Bee careful that you do not transfer a queen from one or more of those hives.
Laying workers, like laying queens put on extra weight while laying. That makes it harder to fly. I recommend dumping them further from the hive like 200 to 300'. They also are not field bees so they do not know where the hive is. Make sure you do not transport any bee back in the box when you bring it back.
Have the your dad have the  hive ready before you start shaking his he bees out. They will be back real quick.
Since you are adding brood to the hive I would not worry about removing removing unless you have a lot more comb than the bees can protect.
You must gut want to remove frames that are mainly drone brood.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2016, 09:59:41 pm »
IT looks as strong as the day I put in the package (3lb) but this hive did have more dead loss than the others, so 9 to 10K bees. I'd hate to lose than many.

From what I have read I do not want the laying workers getting into another hive. Technically all my hives are weak. So taking them away and dumping the hive seems to be the best bet. I have no problem taking them a 1/2 mile away through the woods onto my cousins farm and dumping them there.

Online BeeMaster2

  • Administrator
  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 13494
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2016, 10:05:55 pm »
I would not try to take them more than 100 yards. Some of those bees are new field bees or bees that have to do house work longer than normal. You do not to go past their comfort zone. Just far enough that the laying workers cannot find their way back.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
Ben Franklin

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2016, 10:24:53 pm »
Should I dump the hive tomorrow, pick up the new queen Wednesday and put her in Thursday morning?

Offline iddee

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 10853
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 10:46:35 pm »
OK, too much I disagree with to stay quiet any longer. I have dumped many laying worker hives 6 feet in front of the original location and never had a problem. I would move the hive 10 feet out, put the new hive with queen in it's place, wait 1 to 2 hours for the queen's pheremones to permeate the hive, then dump the bees 10 feet in front of the hives. The new queen's pheremones, plus the new hive, will take care of the laying workers.Then go in 4 or more days later and release the queen.
"Listen to the mustn'ts, child. Listen to the don'ts. Listen to the shouldn'ts, the impossibles, the won'ts. Listen to the never haves, then listen close to me . . . Anything can happen, child. Anything can be"

*Shel Silverstein*

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 08:32:52 am »
I certainly don't have the experience that iddee has, but I've dumped laying workers out about 10-15 yards away and it didn't work. In the same action I added a queen cell to the hive only to find it tore out from the side later.

One thing that probably won't be a bad idea is to smoke that hive really well before you dump. My thinking is they bees will fill their bellies (thinking it's a forest fire). If they return to a different hive they'll stand a less of a chance of being rejected because of the nectar/honey they'll have.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2016, 08:42:30 am »
Everything you ever wanted to know about laying workers but were afraid to ask:
http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslayingworkers.htm
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

Offline Matt J

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #9 on: May 10, 2016, 09:38:39 pm »
First year Beek here as well. I dumped my laying worker hive almost 2 weeks ago. I went about 75 yards because that's as far as I could go in my neighborhood. Installed a new queen that morning but left the cork in the cage for a day.  Then removed the cork the next day and 3 days later she was walking across the comb alive. She is still alive today, almost 2 weeks after install, but the hive does not appear to be doing well.   The first brood I am seeing capped today appear to be drones. I don't know if laying workers made it back, or if I have a drone laying queen, etc. Also, they seem pretty slow to draw out comb. But they did accept my new queen. So, I still have a very weak hive, but I learned a lot, and was able to get a queen accepted. 

Good luck with your hive. Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #10 on: May 10, 2016, 10:05:31 pm »
First year Beek here as well. I dumped my laying worker hive almost 2 weeks ago. I went about 75 yards because that's as far as I could go in my neighborhood. Installed a new queen that morning but left the cork in the cage for a day.  Then removed the cork the next day and 3 days later she was walking across the comb alive. She is still alive today, almost 2 weeks after install, but the hive does not appear to be doing well.   The first brood I am seeing capped today appear to be drones. I don't know if laying workers made it back, or if I have a drone laying queen, etc. Also, they seem pretty slow to draw out comb. But they did accept my new queen. So, I still have a very weak hive, but I learned a lot, and was able to get a queen accepted. 

Good luck with your hive. Hope this helps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks, I just went back and read your thread on the ordeal. I have 5 hives which gives a few more options but just like you I still risk losing the hive anyway. I have one really strong hive, on day 16 there were 3 and half frames of capped brood which would have hatched by now. I'm thinking of swiping a frame of capped and uncapped from them to bolster the numbers in my drone hive. I'm going to switch around some nectar and pollen stores as well. Still flying by the seat of my pants... Thanks again...

Offline Matt J

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #11 on: May 10, 2016, 10:15:02 pm »
I don't know about adding brood. Everything I've read said it helps, but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen, they would likely kill the queen and try to make their own.  Everyone else said they'd kill the new queen if I tried to introduce one in a cage, and David said they would not.

I think adding a frame of uncapped brood each week for 3 weeks is the best way to convert a laying worker hive. But I didn't have that option. I have another hive that is doing good, but I didn't want to mess with it.

Shaking laying workers seems to not be the best option, but I had access to a new queen, and I didn't have any other option.  Who knows what's right or wrong, everyone's got different opinions. I just weighed the options, and picked the one that fit my situation best.


Also, From reading one of your past posts, I think we got our bees from the same place. I'm in the Birmingham area. Got them from Lookout Mt.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2016, 11:26:34 pm »
I don't know about adding brood. Everything I've read said it helps, but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen, they would likely kill the queen and try to make their own.  Everyone else said they'd kill the new queen if I tried to introduce one in a cage, and David said they would not.

I think adding a frame of uncapped brood each week for 3 weeks is the best way to convert a laying worker hive. But I didn't have that option. I have another hive that is doing good, but I didn't want to mess with it.

Shaking laying workers seems to not be the best option, but I had access to a new queen, and I didn't have any other option.  Who knows what's right or wrong, everyone's got different opinions. I just weighed the options, and picked the one that fit my situation best.


Also, From reading one of your past posts, I think we got our bees from the same place. I'm in the Birmingham area. Got them from Lookout Mt.   


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yep, I'll be seeing David tomorrow. Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also, confusing. I didn?t make my plan with David on the phone but will go through it with him tomorrow. It?s his queen? so.

He?s giving a ?free? all day bee class this Saturday, bring your lunch and a chair, in case you haven?t heard.

Offline Matt J

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2016, 11:30:39 pm »
Yup.  I wanted to go to his class, but have to work. 

Offline Peanut

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 63
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2016, 11:40:39 pm »
For me it's 360 miles round trip... twice in one week at my age? going to try it though... need the knowledge.

Offline Matt J

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2016, 11:56:31 pm »
For me it's 360 miles round trip... twice in one week at my age? going to try it though... need the knowledge.


Wow!  That's a lot of driving for a bug!  Ha.

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2016, 08:21:37 am »
Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also

It's been said, "The only thing that two out of three beekeepers agree on is that the 3rd one is wrong."

Wish yall were closer by, I could help you out a lot. My bees exploded again this year and I would gladly give yall some resources.  I'm trying to sell some off but I think now is bad timing.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Matt J

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 113
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2016, 09:52:21 am »
Between here and FB I've gotten a lot of conflicting advice also

It's been said, "The only thing that two out of three beekeepers agree on is that the 3rd one is wrong."

Wish yall were closer by, I could help you out a lot. My bees exploded again this year and I would gladly give yall some resources.  I'm trying to sell some off but I think now is bad timing.

If you have something that could help my bad hive, it might be worth a drive for me.

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2016, 11:01:02 am »
Hey Matt, PM me.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Michael Bush

  • Universal Bee
  • *******
  • Posts: 19832
  • Gender: Male
    • bushfarms.com
Re: Correction for Laying Workers in Queen less hive
« Reply #19 on: May 11, 2016, 11:01:19 am »
>but David at Lookout Mtn said if I added brood and a queen...

Don't waste a queen on a laying worker hive.  A frame of eggs every week for three weeks will fix it and won't cost other hives anything.  A queen can lay 3,000 eggs a day.  Most hives can't take care of that many.  The donor hive will quickly replace the eggs.  They have little invested.
My website:  bushfarms.com/bees.htm en espanol: bushfarms.com/es_bees.htm  auf deutsche: bushfarms.com/de_bees.htm  em portugues:  bushfarms.com/pt_bees.htm
My book:  ThePracticalBeekeeper.com
-------------------
"Everything works if you let it."--James "Big Boy" Medlin

 

anything