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Author Topic: Supersession in progress?  (Read 4222 times)

Offline Mklangelo

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Supersession in progress?
« on: May 08, 2007, 07:58:45 pm »



I doubt such a recently installed colony that is still in population decline would swarm.  I've had some good input from Mici and Kathyp on this but what exactly should I look for to find out exactly what is going on here?  I'm going to do a more detailed inspection tomorrow of that hive alone.


Thanks in advance.


Notes:

Of the three hives, I believe this one has the least amount of brood.  Upon my last full inspection, 9 days ago, this colony was the most active and had a head start on drawing comb compared to the other two.  There are at least 4 or 5 frames for them to work on still.  Which again tells me it isn't a swarm in the making.  Unless I'm completely wrong on that.   :-\

As always, thanks in advance!
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2007, 08:08:00 pm »
take more pics.

they can swarm even if they have room.

my guess is that they are replacing the queen.  it happened to me last year with a new package.
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Offline doak

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2007, 08:15:06 pm »
If it is a new packaged hive, go in and find the queen and get rid of her first. Take out all the queen cells you can find. (check) good. go back in 10 days and check for more cells, and any eggs, that would tell you if there is another queen. once you have all queens, cells and eggs out, requeen with a new queen from a reliable source.
 Some time this can happen with a package. A bad queen the workers don't approve of. doak
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2007, 08:19:41 pm »
Quote from: kathyp on May 08, 2007, 08:08:00 pm
take more pics.

they can swarm even if they have room.

my guess is that they are replacing the queen.  it happened to me last year with a new package.

did you let them do it?  Or did you requeen it yourself?
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2007, 08:57:34 pm »
they requeened and did a great job of it.  in fact, i ended up with more than one queen in the hive, but didn't realize it until much later.  unfortunately, that is the hive i lost this winter.  we learn from our mistakes..... :-(
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2007, 09:10:29 pm »
Quote from: kathyp on May 08, 2007, 08:57:34 pm
they requeened and did a great job of it.  in fact, i ended up with more than one queen in the hive, but didn't realize it until much later.  unfortunately, that is the hive i lost this winter.  we learn from our mistakes..... :-(

Why wouldn't the two queens fight it out?  I was under the impression that the first one to emerge will destroy the others...


Do you think that that supercedure had anything to do with your loosing the colony?


The thing is, in 10 days I'm off on my vacation for 9 days.  I may have to let them handle it themselves.  If I get rid of the queen and the existing queen cells tomorrow, in best case scenario, I will be able to requeen on the day I leave.  It's a bit of a quandry...


I might just follow Michael Bush's advice: Everything works if you let it...   the season is young.


I'll get some better pics up tomorrow...

Thanks Kathy!
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Offline Kathyp

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2007, 09:28:02 pm »
i don't know, but it ended up being a three deep brood box hive and gave me two full supers of honey.  that from a package.  later, they must have booted a queen out.  i found one on the front porch  but there was one still laying inside.

no, it was my fault for not realizing that i'd lost the queen over the winter.  we had some really nasty weather late, and i didn't check.  by the time i realized i'd lost her, the numbers were way down.  i attempted to requeen, but it didn't take.  the last of the bees from that hive were combined with one of the new packages and that seemed to go ok.

i don't have enough experience to give you any advice on letting them go, or requeening.  i tend to lean toward MBs way especially this early in the year.  requeening is a bit of a crap shoot, but if they pick their own queen, your odds of keeping her are better i think.  it just takes longer for her to get up and going.
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2007, 10:00:30 pm »
Quote from: kathyp on May 08, 2007, 09:28:02 pm
i don't know, but it ended up being a three deep brood box hive and gave me two full supers of honey.  that from a package.  later, they must have booted a queen out.  i found one on the front porch  but there was one still laying inside.

no, it was my fault for not realizing that i'd lost the queen over the winter.  we had some really nasty weather late, and i didn't check.  by the time i realized i'd lost her, the numbers were way down.  i attempted to requeen, but it didn't take.  the last of the bees from that hive were combined with one of the new packages and that seemed to go ok.

i don't have enough experience to give you any advice on letting them go, or requeening.  i tend to lean toward MBs way especially this early in the year.  requeening is a bit of a crap shoot, but if they pick their own queen, your odds of keeping her are better i think.  it just takes longer for her to get up and going.

As for that hive you lost, who would have suspected problems after they were doing so well after the supercession?  Two supers full of honey on a new package?  That's great.

Well, to be honest, I'm very tempted to just let the ladies handle their business.  In an effort to not bother them too much, I decided not to do the inspection I had planned for last Friday.  If I had, I very well might have gotten a jump on this in time to handle a requeening properly before I go out of town. 

As for their having "booted a queen out"  Am I wrong in thinking that there can be only one queen.  If there are two or more, it's battle time.  Correct?  Or at least the first to emerge will destroy the others?  Yes, no? 


thanks again Kathy.  I'm getting some good perspectives here.
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Offline wtiger

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2007, 03:29:47 am »
From the things I've seen and read on the forum sometimes a supercedure queen will lay side by side with the old queen.  At least for a while.
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Offline Mici

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2007, 08:37:04 am »
i would let them requeen themselves..no actually i did let them do it :)
i really don't know why almost all of my queens got superceded this year but hell, if they want it...
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2007, 08:39:08 am »
Quote from: Mici on May 09, 2007, 08:37:04 am
i would let them requeen themselves..no actually i did let them do it :)
i really don't know why almost all of my queens got superceded this year but hell, if they want it...

I'm very willing to let nature take it's course.  Should I get rid of the present queen?  Will that help matters?


I'm going to get some decent pics up later.  I'm trying to decide if these queen cells are "Natural" or "emergency" cells.  From what I know, the Emergency cells will be larger and downward opening (not sure)  And will produce queens that have begun their transformation from worker to queen from early in the larval stage. 

The Natural queen cell is a voluntary creation and it's inhabitant is starting her transformation from the egg.

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Offline Mici

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2007, 08:41:04 am »
i think not, i mean..why bother searching her, taking her away...and all, all in all, what if the the virgin queen doesn't mate succesfully, or she gets killed or anything?!?!
i surelly wouldn't kill the old one.
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Offline Shizzell

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #12 on: May 09, 2007, 02:17:01 pm »
Don't kill the old one, thats not a good idea. Maybe it might take the chance away from the two queens fighting and both dieing, but the negatives way out number the positives. Let nature take its course, I sometimes find that the queens that they raise are better than the ones I have bought in the past. Beginner books (Like Beekeeping for dummies) are great for simple knowledge, but don't believe everything you read. Experience is gold. Anyways, its your choice, if there is plenty of queen cells, the chance that one of them works out is great. I have 3 queen cells on a hive that I split (I just gave them a frame of eggs + brood) and I'm going to let them raise their own queen.

Jake
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2007, 03:09:58 pm »
Quote from: Shizzell on May 09, 2007, 02:17:01 pm
Don't kill the old one, thats not a good idea. Maybe it might take the chance away from the two queens fighting and both dieing, but the negatives way out number the positives. Let nature take its course, I sometimes find that the queens that they raise are better than the ones I have bought in the past. Beginner books (Like Beekeeping for dummies) are great for simple knowledge, but don't believe everything you read. Experience is gold. Anyways, its your choice, if there is plenty of queen cells, the chance that one of them works out is great. I have 3 queen cells on a hive that I split (I just gave them a frame of eggs + brood) and I'm going to let them raise their own queen.

Jake

yeah.  I'll let nature take it's course.  They know their business better than I ever will...lol

I'm seeing at least 4 queen cells.  Good odds.
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Offline Brian D. Bray

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2007, 09:05:57 pm »
The queen cell is definately located where a supercedure cell should be.  If you have 4 then the bees are hedging their bets.  They will problably hold all the queen in the cells by resealing them as fast as the queen can open it, while still feeding her.  they will then pick the queen they like the best and kill the others.  they may wait until after their chosen queen is mated before killing the old queen just in case.  The senerio differs hive to hive with the most common way being the old queen being killed at the time the best of the reared queens is selected.

A 1st generation supercedure queen should be more than adequate.  I wouldn't worry to much about buying a queen unless you insist.
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Offline Mklangelo

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Re: Supersession in progress?
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2007, 08:24:23 am »
Quote from: Brian D. Bray on May 10, 2007, 09:05:57 pm
The queen cell is definately located where a supercedure cell should be.  If you have 4 then the bees are hedging their bets.  They will problably hold all the queen in the cells by resealing them as fast as the queen can open it, while still feeding her.  they will then pick the queen they like the best and kill the others.  they may wait until after their chosen queen is mated before killing the old queen just in case.  The senerio differs hive to hive with the most common way being the old queen being killed at the time the best of the reared queens is selected.

A 1st generation supercedure queen should be more than adequate.  I wouldn't worry to much about buying a queen unless you insist.

Thanks for the post Brian

I won't re queen for three reasons:

1.)  I'll be out of town shortly.

2.)  I'll let the bees be bees...

3.)  The existing queen did lay some brood so there will be some new workers emerging around the 18th of this month.  That should coincide nicely with the new queen's arrival on the scene at least a couple of days prior to that and things should take off nicely around that time.  I think I'm in good shape!

PS: God willing and the creek don't rise!  Short of opening up and doing an intensive inspection, which I'm not keen on at this time, I guess I'll just wait to see the usurped monarch's corpse at or near the landing pad, correct?
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