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Author Topic: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?  (Read 11477 times)

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« on: January 14, 2013, 01:25:22 pm »
Please share your knowledge of thermodynamics.
Cheers,
Drew

p.s. If anyone knows any entomologists or physicist/beeks could you please get opinion on thread. I'm dying a slow and painful death here :)


SAVE THE BEES ! :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 05:25:48 pm by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 04:09:22 pm »
From other forum:

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 10:15:37 PM
Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

Reply:
They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.
bees make condensation regardless ... this is about where it happens
if it occurs inside the insulated space below the bees you get 10% heat back

Re: Condensation in an observation hive
« Reply #34 on: Today at 01:51:47 PM »
Reply with quoteQuote Modify messageModify

DING ! DING ! DING ! WINNER ! WINNER ! CHICKEN DINNER ! applause

Also, (and more importantly), if it occurs in insulated space below bee's, you have dry B's !
Cheers,
Drew
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 06:04:25 pm by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2013, 04:57:50 pm »
From other forum:

No question should ever be considered unreasonable - the only unreasonable aspect of this thread are the responses from ... and his parrot, who cannot get their heads around a perfectly sound enquiry.

Warm air rises, and cold air descends - therefore the formation of a thermocline is always possible. But I would suggest that the existence of a thermocline within a beehive is highly unlikely ... for 2 reasons.

The first is the activity of the bees themselves. Wherever there is active circulation (often due to the cluster being located towards one side), there is unlikely to be stratification of thermal layers.

The second is that a vortex is created near the entrance to any occupied hive, due to the movement of air through a narrow space. (Clearly this would not apply where OMFs are fitted.) Such vortices would also 'stir the air'.

The only time I could envisage a thermocline being created would be when the bees are very tightly and centrally clustered, and when the upper part of the hive is 100% sealed. But the breaking of cluster would soon mix the air, thus destroying any temporary stratification.

At least, that's how I see events within the hive. But I could always be wrong !


Thermoclines are more usually associated with large outdoor expanses of water, where the water is heated (by the sun) from above. Warm water rises and the cooler water gradually migrates downwards (just check your domestic hot water tank) - thus creating the thermocline. I have often experienced these when diving in the Med - it's like moving through an invisible curtain between an oven and a fridge. Very strange.

Having said that - an immersion heater does heats the water from below, and a thermocline is most certainly created within a hot water tank (but it's a tank which isn't stirred), so it's far from being a stupid issue to raise.
Me:
I to am a scuba diver, and sky. My contention would be...... ready for it ? The atmosphere is static ! remember combs now, can you visualize how the heat would disallow condensation above thermocline ? Smile The honeybee hive is natures perfect distillery ! Smile
_Me
Of course it could be wishful thinking but, if you go back, re-read Langsroth, Huber, I'm working thru Swammerdam now, the clues are there. They saw the thing, just, like all since, missed the significance. They didn't understand thermocline
Me
Go, look @ your honeybee organism, again for the first time,........ think upside down moonshine still,..... think hermit crab.....can you see it now ? Smile



Offline Finski

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2013, 05:22:54 pm »
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OH LORD!
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Offline derekm

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2013, 06:27:42 pm »
work on bee thermal behaviour usually assumes thin wooden boxes not insulated ones.
I have found very little research and almost none that is well done on insulated environments .
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2013, 06:45:24 pm »
I know, can't find anything either. Could it be this has been completely missed ? I have emails out to mags and ent. depts. In any case, come spring, I have the necessary apparatus to test the theory. As they say, a pic is worth a thousand words.

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2013, 07:14:52 pm »
Good Lord double time  :angel: :angel:

Another good example of a thermocline would be a swimming pool in the summer with a solar cover.  As long as the pump isn’t running (to stir up the water), you end up with a layer of hot water at the surface that feels like a hot tub.  However if you sink too low in the water you freeze your butt off (at least in Michigan) as the water rapidly gets cold.  You see this in lakes to some extent too. 

I think your poster in reply #2 hit the nail on the head on this one.   If the bees are mixing the air then your thermocline idea is screwed!  If the bees aren’t mixing the air, then your bees are screwed due to asphyxiation. 

Drew would you concede that mixing of air by the bees will wreck a thermocline?

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2013, 07:29:16 pm »
Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga  :) Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course


p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2013, 11:14:55 pm by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline derekm

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2013, 08:08:36 pm »
there s a lot going on even without the bees mixing.
Air at the insulated walls is cooling and descending. warm moist air is rising from the bees.
water vapour is condensing releasing heat.
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2013, 08:25:15 pm »
 I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism. Except if you vent the roof of course :( I would add that I believe the colony could be fanning quiet substantially above and the effect on the thermocline below would be like that of blowing into a bowl of water.

Another way to say, Apis can, boil, the moisture down/out.


p.s. I feel obliged to add a word of caution @ this juncture for the benefit of any following. I do not recommend you run right out and throw a garbage bag and old sleeping bag on your hive/shell. Also, if ya happen to know any thermodynamics professors.... ?  Help !  :)

p.s. Although it gets tricky I suppose it could be to advantage to point out the 3D aspect to be expected of suspected thermocline @ this point. Although false it could help to see it as a sphere with the cluster @ center.
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 02:58:52 am by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline Finski

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 02:42:51 am »
Fill bowl with water......blow. Remember combs(hot/dry radiators), assume heat w/ no air movement. Do you have to flap your arms around to generate heat ? Try yoga  :) Apis would not
asphyxiate in a tree :) There is exchange occurring, under control, through thermocline. You could call it breathing ! IMHO of course


p.s. BlueBee, You are a keeper, I shall let you take line, I have tightened my drag a hair, but I will tire you, then I shall have you ! :)

Is beekeeping really that difficult?

.
.
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Offline derekm

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 05:39:48 am »
I do not disagree, my contention is, that function is @ the complete mercy of the organism...

you need to eat this elephant one bite at a time
If they increased energy bill for your home by a factor of 4.5 would you consider that cruel? If so why are you doing that to your bees?

Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2013, 10:46:53 am »
Well said sir  ! Yes, it sounds like the implications are starting to dawn on you.
p.s. Keep going, there is light
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:02:13 am by Maryland Beekeeper »

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2013, 10:51:36 am »
I’m a little anxious to hear what your next invention is going to be. :)

Offline Jim134

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2013, 11:08:20 am »
Is beekeeping really that difficult?

 :roll:  For some may bee



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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2013, 11:17:05 am »
from other forum:
?
Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?
me
Below thermocline, if your hive was upside down aquarium, under certain conditions, you would see a horizontal plane,...... defined, by a line of condensation.

Offline Finski

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2013, 12:31:51 pm »

Ok, so where does the moisture start to condense in a high density (100g/litre) polystyrene hive, sealed at the top?


I have used polystyrene boxes 25 years.  System is different than in wooden hives.

Wood sucks the condensed water inside. So the wood is more or less moist during winter. Ply may suck too 30% water.

We do not  "seal" hives here on top.  There is just cover on box.

Condensation happens in coldest surfaces. So inner cover must have best insulation that condensation does not happen there.


If the colony has too much space, the water condensates on unoccupied frames. It generates mould.
Usually condensation happens in the box corners.

Condensation is usual in side the hive. It does not kill hives. Too moisture however makes bees sick.
Keep the hive slanting forwards and water drills off from hive.


Mouldy hive means that the colony has too much space  and the heat of cluster does not keep the hive warm enough.

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Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2013, 12:49:06 pm »
Thank you Finski that is helpful.

Offline BlueBee

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2013, 06:21:34 pm »
How about forgetting the themocline and sticking some disposable diapers over you bees heads?  They use a highly absorbent polymer to soak up moisture.  This might just be the Cat's meow you're looking for. 

Before moisture:


After moisture:


Offline Maryland Beekeeper

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Re: Weak thermocline = Wet hive ?
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2013, 06:46:10 pm »
 clues ?  :

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7nPM4fVQCSMAehNXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1ZjczMG83BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMwRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=124b3gprg/EXP=1358320204/**http%3a//jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353.full

http://chopwoodcarrywaterplantseeds.blogspot.se/2012/06/hive-condensation.html


http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4897560653858276&pid=15.1

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG7iUm4fVQB1cAdQRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE1MzU1YXZnBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA1ZJUDA3N18xNjU-/SIG=12bu5brfh/EXP=1358320038/**http%3a//www.beebehavior.com/infrared_camera_pictures.php

I believe that one infra red pic depicts a winter cluster, that air is not moving. Or, better, only moving within its own color. The thermal layers are  visable, the red holes are the difference in temp between out and in. I believe this colony is quiet warm and dry both. Can you see how no moisture could condense in there ? Equally important, no vertical heat loss because no air loss ?   (false, but suits our purpose here).
Cheers,
Drew
Sorry u have 2 cut and paste.
p.s. Remember you are looking @ 2D slice.
p.s.s. I don't know anything about that pic, but it does match perfectly how I see things, a couple more like it, and it will be time to begin new post in equip. sec. Thermohive:Construction :)
« Last Edit: January 15, 2013, 11:59:17 pm by Maryland Beekeeper »

 

anything