Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?  (Read 589 times)

Offline Acebird

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #20 on: May 19, 2017, 09:56:12 PM »
You better have six or seven super on. Where the average yield is roughly 200 pounds per hive.

That is nuts.  Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive.  Way easier to work.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline cao

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 638
  • Gender: Male
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #21 on: May 19, 2017, 10:11:43 PM »
I know this is getting a little off topic but it is interesting. 
Back to one brood box, our good queens will fill a frame totally with brood, two teaspoons of honey in the top corners, and will fill 6 frames like this, even will layout the insides of frames 1 and 8. Very rarely will they lay on the outside of 1 and 8.
It would be interesting if you would get more than double the honey if you gave your good queens a second box to lay in.  I know my larger hives that are laying in multiple boxes produce much more than my small to average hives.  I don't use excluders so the larger hives are laying in 2-3 boxes.  I have 5 hives that are 6-7 boxes tall right now(2-3 for brood, 1 empty just added last week and 3 boxes of partially capped honey).  I will probably get 5-6 boxes of honey off each of these hives this year.  By the end of the year they will bee back to 2-3 boxes for winter.

     If you do not have enough room on. You will slow the bees down. What happens bees can bring in nectar faster than they can evaporate the water.
That's what I've found with my larger hives.  They can draw out, fill and cap a medium box in about 2 weeks during a good flow.

That is nuts.  Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive.  Way easier to work.
The problem with that is if you split, you won't get 100 lbs per hive.  My smaller hives only give about 1/4 -1/3 as much honey as the bigger one.

Offline Oldbeavo

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2017, 12:03:58 AM »
We don't stack them, may be a hive might get to 3 supers, but as they fill one we take it and replace it with an empty.. This also allows us to keep varieties of honey separate for marketing.
We wouldn't have enough supers to stack 6-7 high, on average we run 2.5 supers per hive and keep a rotation going. It would be a big cost in supers and frames for us to run 6-7 supers per hive.
Also our extraction system runs best at a max. of 70 supers per run per day.

Online Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2017, 12:34:55 AM »
You better have six or seven super on. Where the average yield is roughly 200 pounds per hive.

That is nuts.  Split the hive, use the same number of boxes and get 100 pounds off from each hive.  Way easier to work.

    If I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore. As a beekeeper you can do one of three things you might like to do with your bees. Grow bees, do pollination or make honey,


                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :smile:
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:47:54 AM by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Acebird

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2017, 08:57:06 AM »
We don't stack them, may be a hive might get to 3 supers, but as they fill one we take it and replace it with an empty.. This also allows us to keep varieties of honey separate for marketing.

That is what I said in the first place.  You pull boxes off unless you want bragging rights.

Quote
  If I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore.

Good luck with that theory Jim.  You have to grow bees to make honey no way around it.
There are many beekeepers that use QE's and limit the size of the brood nest to one deep.  Then there are those that don't use a QE and the brood nest grows to 2 or 3 deeps.  They both make about the same amount of honey.  Logic says that if you let the hive grow to two deeps and split it in half it will make more honey than not splitting it.  Obviously a mated queen has to be introduced.  The purpose for managing the hives like this is to limit the height of the hives so you don't have to pull the honey AND to cover losses for overwintering.  If you end up with too many hives in the spring you sell them off at a very high premium.
This is something a hobbyist can do if they are running 8 frame equipment and don't want to work that hard.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Oldbeavo

  • House Bee
  • **
  • Posts: 170
  • Gender: Male
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #25 on: May 20, 2017, 09:05:25 PM »
I suppose to get back to the original topic, the thing that has come out of the discussion is that there are many systems to harvest honey. Therefore you need to develop a system that suits you and your nectar sources.
As a bee keeper that was around when the Beatles and Stones were the biggest thing around, I need a system that suits my ability to lift and move hives, 6-7 high is too high for me in a migratory system and to shift bees it is better at two high.
This also means that I favour 8 fr due to weight and then use full depth to lessen the number of frames that we handle at extraction.
If I was a stationary bee keeper then I would still run 8fr, maybe 2 brood boxes ( as I would be interested to see what area of brood the queen would use compared with one brood box). Even 2 brood boxes I would still run a Qx for ease of management at harvesting time.
The system you develop must be a compromise of honey yield and efficient management, this is related to the number of hives you run. At hobby level the system may be different to us that have a small business of 300 hives and have moved bees 6-7 times since the end of August.
We have a range of production per hive due to circumstances (lost queen, poor honey location) and genetic quality, we have expanded rapidly in the last 2 seasons, 130 hives to 300 in two seasons. So our range of yield per hive would be 40lb at the bottom to 220lb from our best hives. Need them all at the top end.

Offline little john

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 867
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2017, 04:34:56 AM »

Quote
  If I did as you suggested. It would be lucky if I got 40 to 60 pounds of honey per hive. I really do not want to grow bees anymore.

Good luck with that theory Jim.  You have to grow bees to make honey no way around it.
There are many beekeepers that use QE's and limit the size of the brood nest to one deep.  Then there are those that don't use a QE and the brood nest grows to 2 or 3 deeps.  They both make about the same amount of honey.  Logic says that if you let the hive grow to two deeps and split it in half it will make more honey than not splitting it.  Obviously a mated queen has to be introduced.

Hi Brian.
What you appear to be saying is that if you take a hive of 2x-strength, and divide it into 2 hives each of 1x-strength, then - after supplying the obligatory queen - by working independently of each other their combined honey yield will be greater than that of the '2x hive'.  Hope I've got that right.

I'm not a honey-farmer, and restrict myself only to 'growing bees' and raising queens. One system currently on trial here has 3 queens in one box - that's one 'mother' queen with 2 of her daughters separated behind mesh partitions.  If this trial is successful, then that system will be maxed-out to 5 queens per box (one mother with 4 daughters similarly housed).
Because of this large number of laying queens (even for a relatively short time), an abnormally large concentration of various queen pheromones will exist within the box, and so I've been researching the possible consequences of this.

The only information I've gathered so far has been related to 2-queen systems - meaning '2-queen honey production systems' in which, by the taking of two 1x-strength hives, and putting them close together with a single stack of supers over, common to both hives - the honey yield has then vastly increased, well in excess of '2x'. In several articles, the increase in the amount of honey returned by effectively doubling the brood strength was dramatic - several hundred pounds per 'twin-hive', contrasted with seventy or eighty per individual hive.  Thus it would appear that there is an exponential correlation between brood box strength and honey-gathering potential.

The only down-side to this mode of operation appears to be that it's something of a hassle to set-up and run, and as such doesn't lend itself well to migratory operation.
LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.site90.com

Online Jim 134

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2696
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2017, 07:12:52 AM »
This is something a hobbyist can do if they are running 8 frame equipment and don't want to work that hard.

     If this is your goal, I would definitely look into AZ Hives. Where you only lift one frame at a time.Also you are on a continuous Harvest cycle.


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134   :smile:
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Acebird

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2454
  • Gender: Male
  • Practicing non intervention beekeeping
Re: Starting to like to 8 frame deeps and mediums, any down side?
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2017, 12:04:32 PM »
Hi Brian.
What you appear to be saying is that if you take a hive of 2x-strength, and divide it into 2 hives each of 1x-strength, then - after supplying the obligatory queen - by working independently of each other their combined honey yield will be greater than that of the '2x hive'.  Hope I've got that right.

Or at least equal.
Assumptions:
1  The 1x split must be large enough that it does not impede either queens capacity to lay eggs.
2  This must occur before the first major flow so it is not lost.

Item 2 just about forces the need for an overwintered hive with a good queen.  It is unlikely, especially where I am to accomplish this with a package or nuc.  But if we are talking a package or nuc then the problem of a hive getting too high isn't going to happen anyway even with 8 frame equipment.  Just about the time the package or nuc gets to the 1x size the major flow is over.  The colony goes into winter survival mode and usually won't swarm unless the beekeeper makes a mistake.

A 2x hive after the major flow can become a robber hive and pounce on the little guys next to it making it continue to grow into a bragger hive.  Michael P suggest making nucs in July and August for overwintering and I wonder how he avoids this potential problem.  My only guess is that he robs the production hives of honey which will knock them down and then crams them full of sugar water in September to build the hive and the stores back up for winter.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

 

anything