Remedy for a weak nuc?

[shinbone]

Hi All,

I would like some help deciding what to do about a weak nuc.  Here's the scenario:

I picked up two nucs on April 29th.  One from New Mexico and one local to Denver.    The NM hive had about 3 frames of bees.  The Denver hive had about 1-1/2 to 2 frames of bees.  These are the first nucs I have ever bought and the first bees I have had in about 35 years.  In other words, I am quite inexperienced with modern beekeeping.  

A few days later, the Denver hive gets robbed and is substantially weakened before I stop the robbing and install a robber screen and reduce the entrance down to about 1/2".  A few days after the robbing I inspect the Denver hive.  I found a few hundred dead bees, about 1 frame of live bees and the queen still alive.  After the robbing, the Denver hive has some but not much activity at its entrance.  I am thinking that this hive is now so weakened that it may not build up enough to survive the winter.  Plus, it is now a potential target for wax moths and SHB, despite the reduced entrance.

On May 5th I pick up two more nucs from Grand Junction.  One hive is Italians and one hive is Carniolans.  Both are strong nucs, with about 3-1/2 frames of bees for the Italians and over 4 frames for the Carnies. There is lots of activity in front of these hive each day, especially bees orienting each afternoon.  Both of these hives have moved into the medium super I placed on each brood chamber and are building comb in the medium foundationless frames.

It seems I have two options regarding the weakened Denver hive:

1)  Leave it alone and let Nature take its course.

2)  Swap in a frame of brood and nurse bees from the Carnies or Italians (probably the Carnies since they are growing the fastest), and swap hive positions with the Carnies or Italians (probably the Italians just to spread the bee-donation load out between hives) in the middle of the day.  My thought is that this would boost the brood numbers, boost the nurse bee population, and boost the field force.  Such manipulations would hopefully strengthen the Denver nuc to get it back on track to survive the winter, with little negative affect on the donor hives.

My feelings are I hate to do #1 because I don't want to write off the $125 I just paid for the Denver nuc so soon after buying it.  Also, since the hive was robbed, it never got a chance to show what it could do, and it may in fact be a perfectly good strain of bees that are worth saving.  I suspect that the person who supplied me the nuc, threw it together just before I bought it, and I got little more than a package with queen instead of a nuc.  Something that is not a fault of the bee's genetics.  (However, since this hive was damaged by the robbing, I think it is too late for me to go back the seller for some sort of recourse).

I hesitate to do #2, though, because if the weakened Denver hive is doomed to perish even with a boost, I don't want to take, and therefor waste, resources from the other hives.

A few other notes:  I am a hobbyist (obviously) and so saving the hive is more important to me than maximizing cost efficiencies.  In other words, I am in this for the fun and learning, not to make money, and don't mind spending a little extra to save a worthwhile hive.  These hives are in my backyard, so it is easy for me to put whatever work is necessary into saving the Denver hive.  The 24hr mite drop on all of these hive is less than 2 or 3.  We had a warm and dry winter this year, and the Spring so far has been no better, so I am thinking we are going to have reduced forage available for bees this season.

Is doing #1 a no-brainer; or, is doing #2 a no-brainer; or, am I in a gray area with no obvious answer, and I just have to roll the dice with either #1 or #2 and hope for the best?  Do I have another option?

TIA.

--shinbone

[hardwood]

#3 combine your two weakest nucs (even three frames of bees is not a real strong nuc) and split them once they've built up. The more population in a nuc, the faster they will build.

Scott

[Robo]

If the queen is laying good,  and population is the only thing keeping them from growing,  than just swap the location with one of the strong nucs.   If needs be wait a week or so and swap it with another as well.  it is all about supporting population if the queen is strong.

With a good laying queen,  there is still time for them to build up strong before winter.   I take 2 frame queen mating nucs and let them build up.

[BeeMaster2]

Shinbone,
I would stop paying full price for 1/2 or less full nucs. A nuc should have 3 frames of brood and frames with pollen and honey. It should be full of bees. My second nuc was just 3 frames of bees. I wondered when he put them in my hive box why he pulled 3 frames at once and then the other 2 together. It wasn't until the following week that I found out. 2 weeks later I was going to take it back and was told they refund my money but when I went to take it back the hive was obviously growing very fast and it survived and made honey. It did not make it through the winter.
Jim

[shinbone]

Thanks for the responses.

I guess I'll check the brood pattern this weekend.  If the queen isn't laying well, I'll go with hardwood's Option #3; pinch the queen and do a newspaper combine with my 2nd weakest nuc.

If the queen is laying well, I will go with my Option #2 and put in a frame of brood and nurse bees from the Carnie hive, and swap hive positions with the Italian hive to boost the foragers.

And, yes, now that I have an idea what to expect, I will be more careful when buying nucs.  Although, all but one of the four nucs I bought this year were ordered and paid for months in advance.  Seems like it may not be an easy thing to get my money back from an unscrupulous or sloppy seller if I am not satisfied with the nuc.  Not to mention I would have to open the hive and pull a few frames at pick-up to verify its contents, which may not be the best thing to do just before putting it in my car to take home.

Thanks everyone!

[shinbone]

Just an update on dealing with this weak nuc:

I checked the brood pattern of the queen, and it does not look good.  In the brood area of the frames, I would say one in twenty cells was capped brood, the rest just empty cells.

Consequently, I went with Option #4: on May 30th I ordered a new queen from Purvis Brothers.  I figured an already laying new queen would minimize the delay in brood production, and I had heard good things about Purvis queens as well as their customer service, and I figured this was a good opportunity to give them a try.  Rosie Purvis was very helpful through the whole buying and shipping process!

I installed the new Purvis queen 36 hours after dispatching the original queen.  I inserted the queen cage between the most active frames and let the bees eat the candy plug from the JZBZ queen cage (i.e., no direct release).  I checked for successful queen release 3 days after installing the queen cage, and the new Purvis queen had been released.  

Interestingly, when I opened the hive to check for queen release, I immediatly noticed that the bees were much calmer than they had ever been before.  Also, this hive always had about half a dozen dead bees on the landing board behind the robber screen, but now the landing board was clear of dead bees.  Plus, from watcing the hive entrance, the hive seems to have fewer foragers flying.  Not sure if this is just coincidence or if it is somehow related to the hive finally having a good queen.

So far so good, and I am hopeful that the new queen will start laying soon and I will get a good buildup going in this hive.

I will check on how the new queen is doing in about 10 days and report back.

Thanks for everyone's suggestions.

[yockey5]

A good fertile queen should be laying within 3 days AFTER she is released.

[shinbone]

yockey5:  3 days - good to know.  Thanks.

FWIW, the instructions Purvis included with the queen said not to disturb the hive for at least 7 days after the queen is released.  I guess the reasoning is the queen needs to lay some eggs to become "invested" in the hive to minimize the risk of her flying when you start pulling frames for inspection.