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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Jim134 on April 05, 2013, 03:42:08 am

Title: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 05, 2013, 03:42:08 am
Dan Rather Reports - Buzzkill
Published on Apr 3, 2013  


This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S. Some of the country's biggest beekeepers have lost over 60%. Some say they won't be able to rebuild their numbers with such high losses and if these kinds of losses continue, the industry may only be able to sustain itself a few more years at most. WIth one in three bites of food we eat dependent on bees for pollination, will there be enough bees to pollinate the crops this year? The almond orchards in California are the first test where 85% of the world's almonds come from. Enter a fascinating world of the largest mass pollination event on earth.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ5riRX1_3w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ5riRX1_3w)



        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: hardwood on April 05, 2013, 10:11:05 am
Thanks for the link Jim. I actually just got done watching this show on tv and found it interesting although depressing. The 2013 "summit" they covered was a joke...EPA and pesticide manufacturers dancing around the issues like politicians.

Scott
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Nimrod on April 05, 2013, 10:30:37 am
I just watched a report on BBC World News, the bee problem is world wide.  They are having the same problem in England.  I live in South Georgia and I have noticed a drastic change in animals and varmints in our area.  Last year I didn't see a single bee in our flower garden.  I know longer see frogs and toads out at night.  I no longer see tadpoles in streams or ponds.  I don't see as many snakes.  I don't catch as many fish, and I do know how to catch fish, they just are not in the rivers here any longer.  There are not as many birds as they were ten years ago.  Coons and possoms are fewer as well.  There is something wrong in our environment.  I believe it is in the water.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 05, 2013, 11:49:55 am
I just watched it.  It was pretty depressing, but misery sells.  It seemed heavy on the sky is falling of sensationalism that uses stats and info that were anecdotal not scientifically based.  With that type of reporting you can then lead your audience to the conclusion you want to promote.  It being Dan Rather "reporting" does not help as it's been proven he's willing to ignore some obvious truths if it gets in the way of a good story.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Nimrod on April 05, 2013, 12:04:14 pm
D you are right.  The news media reports things in a way that is best for them, not all but most.  I have lost faith in the national news media.  We have to do our on investigations and work with our university systems to figure out what is going on.  I can tell you from my own observations something is really wrong.  I have been raised outdoors, I have lived my life outside and I can document the changes I have seen.  Like I said above, it is in the water.  Just from things I have seen locally, things that are raised in water are on a decline.  Could it be from our local E. I. Hatch Nuclear Power Plant?  They have had some accidents there.  The plant has been in operation since 1973 and all the used fuel rods are being stored on site. 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 05, 2013, 11:00:08 pm
I just watched it.  It was pretty depressing, but misery sells.  It seemed heavy on the sky is falling of sensationalism that uses stats and info that were anecdotal not scientifically based.  With that type of reporting you can then lead your audience to the conclusion you want to promote.  It being Dan Rather "reporting" does not help as it's been proven he's willing to ignore some obvious truths if it gets in the way of a good story.

   I have been doing bees for the lasts 56 years from World War II to about 1983 before
Varroa mites the USA had about 5 million hives after Varroa mites the number of hives are about 2.5 million 1984 to now.
   In 1960 to 1980 my winter losses were about 3% to 5% after Varroa mites winter losses are about 25% or so.

   I do not know if the sky falling or not just look at the numbers and you tell me but I can only tell you what happened to me and yes I have kept the bees on the same property for all these years.


             BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)

Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 06, 2013, 01:11:29 am
jim,
i agree that the mite issue has been a big blow for honeybees and now the hive beetle but this is trying to pin everything on pesticides.  
they made one really good point, hives from almost every state are shipped into one small area at the same time then after being exposed to each other shipped back to where they came from.  bees are being exposed to problems from every part of the country.  i'm not a big fan of migratory pollination because of that and the fact that it's stressful on the bees in general.
they also pointed out that when you treat for varroa you are trying to kill a bug on a bug.  so, when people use the various pesticides designed to kill the mites what is that doing to the bees?
is there a problem? definitely.  can it be blamed squarely on agriculture?  i doubt it.  
i think one of the biggest dangers for bees is beekeeping these days.    
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: derekm on April 06, 2013, 05:28:06 am
I just watched a report on BBC World News, the bee problem is world wide.  They are having the same problem in England.  I live in South Georgia and I have noticed a drastic change in animals and varmints in our area.  Last year I didn't see a single bee in our flower garden.  I know longer see frogs and toads out at night.  I no longer see tadpoles in streams or ponds.  I don't see as many snakes.  I don't catch as many fish, and I do know how to catch fish, they just are not in the rivers here any longer.  There are not as many birds as they were ten years ago.  Coons and possoms are fewer as well.  There is something wrong in our environment.  I believe it is in the water.
Its insects that are the problem...  so many things eat them,  frogs toads fish birds , small mammals, they are fundamental to the food chains.  We are destroying all the insects, so we are starving the frogs, toad, birds and small mammals.

Ask a motorcyclist. A bikers visor in spring samples a cross section of flying insects.

Agriculture is going to kill insects, that isnt going to change, but we need to change the amount they kill.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 06, 2013, 06:58:52 am
.
What I understood, USA was last summer extremely hot. Am  I right?

It has influences of quality and amount of pollen and it has bad influences on bees wintering.
Huge losses  have appeared on areas which suffer  from dryness.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 06, 2013, 10:29:53 am
I just watched a report on BBC World News, the bee problem is world wide.  They are having the same problem in England.  I live in South Georgia and I have noticed a drastic change in animals and varmints in our area.  Last year I didn't see a single bee in our flower garden.  I know longer see frogs and toads out at night.  I no longer see tadpoles in streams or ponds.  I don't see as many snakes.  I don't catch as many fish, and I do know how to catch fish, they just are not in the rivers here any longer.  There are not as many birds as they were ten years ago.  Coons and possoms are fewer as well.  There is something wrong in our environment.  I believe it is in the water.
Its insects that are the problem...  so many things eat them,  frogs toads fish birds , small mammals, they are fundamental to the food chains.  We are destroying all the insects, so we are starving the frogs, toad, birds and small mammals.

Ask a motorcyclist. A bikers visor in spring samples a cross section of flying insects.

Agriculture is going to kill insects, that isnt going to change, but we need to change the amount they kill.

i ride 60 miles one way from my house to my farm.  there are thousands of acres of peach orchards and hundreds of thousands of acres of cotton/soybean/sunflower fields and i have to wash my windshield every day because of all the insects on it.  the problem with the frogs is definitely in the water.  there have been several studies over the last ten or 20 years about the decline of frogs.  part of that problem is fertilizer and pesticide run off but only part of it.  
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 06, 2013, 10:33:07 am
.
What I understood, USA was last summer extremely hot. Am  I right?

It has influences of quality and amount of pollen and it has bad influences on bees wintering.
Huge losses  have appeared on areas which suffer  from dryness.

.
yes, it was hot as well as a drought.  in late june i drove from alabama to south dakota and back.  the state of arkansas looked like it was ready to go up in flames it was so dry and the midwest and plains states were hit right after that.  there were also some very big wildfires at the time. 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 06, 2013, 10:45:39 am
.

We had extremely dry in 2003. Then in Finland, Sweden and in North Germany  66% hive losses were very common.  it was quite large climatic area.

2 years ago (?) I read about isle of western  coast of USA, where they lost 90% of their hives.
It was in news that it was very dry there.




Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: derekm on April 06, 2013, 02:22:51 pm
I just watched a report on BBC World News, the bee problem is world wide.  They are having the same problem in England.  I live in South Georgia and I have noticed a drastic change in animals and varmints in our area.  Last year I didn't see a single bee in our flower garden.  I know longer see frogs and toads out at night.  I no longer see tadpoles in streams or ponds.  I don't see as many snakes.  I don't catch as many fish, and I do know how to catch fish, they just are not in the rivers here any longer.  There are not as many birds as they were ten years ago.  Coons and possoms are fewer as well.  There is something wrong in our environment.  I believe it is in the water.
Its insects that are the problem...  so many things eat them,  frogs toads fish birds , small mammals, they are fundamental to the food chains.  We are destroying all the insects, so we are starving the frogs, toad, birds and small mammals.

Ask a motorcyclist. A bikers visor in spring samples a cross section of flying insects.

Agriculture is going to kill insects, that isnt going to change, but we need to change the amount they kill.

i ride 60 miles one way from my house to my farm.  there are thousands of acres of peach orchards and hundreds of thousands of acres of cotton/soybean/sunflower fields and i have to wash my windshield every day because of all the insects on it.  the problem with the frogs is definitely in the water.  there have been several studies over the last ten or 20 years about the decline of frogs.  part of that problem is fertilizer and pesticide run off but only part of it.  
but how many bugs on the visor 10 years ago?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: buzzbee on April 06, 2013, 06:25:00 pm
.

We had extremely dry in 2003. Then in Finland, Sweden and in North Germany  66% hive losses were very common.  it was quite large climatic area.

2 years ago (?) I read about isle of western  coast of USA, where they lost 90% of their hives.
It was in news that it was very dry there.






Finsky, you mean these high bee losses has happened before?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 06, 2013, 07:20:38 pm


Finsky, you mean these high bee losses has happened before?


yes...
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 06, 2013, 10:25:30 pm


Finsky, you mean these high bee losses has happened before?


yes...

first documented in 1869.   records of it happening at various places several times since then. 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 07, 2013, 05:23:22 am
.
It was Vancouver Isle of Canada 2010
 
Vancouver Island beekeepers say 90 per cent of their hives have been wiped out by a lethal combination of disease and a long summer last year.
 
Vancouver Island is home to a quarter of all the honeybees in British Columbia, but commercial operations were devastated over the winter by a high mortality rate for honeybees.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 07, 2013, 06:41:55 am
.
It was Vancouver Isle of Canada 2010
 
Vancouver Island beekeepers say 90 per cent of their hives have been wiped out by a lethal combination of disease and a long summer last year.
 
Vancouver Island is home to a quarter of all the honeybees in British Columbia, but commercial operations were devastated over the winter by a high mortality rate for honeybees.

Finski........
This is Canada not the USA.


      

           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: BeeMaster2 on April 07, 2013, 07:27:08 am


Finsky, you mean these high bee losses has happened before?


yes...

I am reading The Beekeeper's Lament, only about half way through. The author documents numerous times going back as far as the written history of beekeeping of this happening over and over. Langstroth talked about it happening due to the wax moth but it goes back much further than that.
Jim
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 07, 2013, 07:42:50 am

Finski........
This is Canada not the USA.


Yes, I saw it from map.

. International bee forum

"Me America, me no varroa"
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 07, 2013, 11:22:42 am
.

We had extremely dry in 2003. Then in Finland, Sweden and in North Germany  66% hive losses were very common.  it was quite large climatic area.

2 years ago (?) I read about isle of western  coast of USA, where they lost 90% of their hives.It was in news that it was very dry there.



.
It was Vancouver Isle of Canada 2010
 
Vancouver Island beekeepers say 90 per cent of their hives have been wiped out by a lethal combination of disease and a long summer last year.
 
Vancouver Island  is home to a quarter of all the honeybees in British Columbia, but commercial operations were devastated over the winter by a high mortality rate for honeybees.

Finski........
This is Canada not the USA.


       

           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


This is not my Quote


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 07, 2013, 11:35:30 am


This is not my Quote


       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Neither mine.
Whose is it?
.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: greenbtree on April 07, 2013, 12:47:56 pm
Here in Iowa we had major drought last year.  Followed by a cold, long Spring, with no occasional warm days.  My losses are huge this year, it may be as high as 75%.  Can't tell for sure yet, still not warm enough to open the hives on any days, willows and red maples are just starting to bloom, so it is very hard to tell early robbing from hive survival.  Finally supposed to reach close to 60 with sun today, I am hoping there will be enough pollen out there for me to tell which hives are bringing in, and not just taking out.

JC
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 07, 2013, 01:29:41 pm
  Finski  did you post this ???

Reply #11,Reply #16



        BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 07, 2013, 01:45:38 pm
  Finski  did you post this ???

Reply #11,Reply #16


Never!
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 08, 2013, 12:18:18 pm
I just watched it.  It was pretty depressing, but misery sells.  It seemed heavy on the sky is falling of sensationalism that uses stats and info that were anecdotal not scientifically based.  With that type of reporting you can then lead your audience to the conclusion you want to promote.  It being Dan Rather "reporting" does not help as it's been proven he's willing to ignore some obvious truths if it gets in the way of a good story.

   I have been doing bees for the lasts 56 years from World War II to about 1983 before
Varroa mites the USA had about 5 million hives after Varroa mites the number of hives are about 2.5 million 1984 to now.
   In 1960 to 1980 my winter losses were about 3% to 5% after Varroa mites winter losses are about 25% or so.

   I do not know if the sky falling or not just look at the numbers and you tell me but I can only tell you what happened to me and yes I have kept the bees on the same property for all these years.


             BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)



Yes, bee numbers have declined as have the beekeepers (until recently, but those are mostly non commercial).  What are you getting at?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Semple on April 08, 2013, 02:18:21 pm
We are in the drought area and my losses are > 50% this year also. One yard in particular that had very little fall forage around it only had 3 surviving hives out of 17. I won't be wintering bees over there again.

Worse the feral colonies have really taken a hit, I know of only 2 colonies alive out of 20 or so that I watch, so swarms here are going to be in short supply.


Bummed.

Don




Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 08, 2013, 08:24:58 pm
Yes, bee numbers have declined as have the beekeepers (until recently, but those are mostly non commercial).  What are you getting at?

The USA have only 1/2 many bees now as in 1955 or so.



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Bush_84 on April 08, 2013, 09:10:30 pm
The drought likely has something to do with the rough winter, but here in Minnesota I believe th bigger issue was the winter weather.  We never got those nice days for bees to break cluster and cleanse/rearrange stores.  Not only that but we had some bad cold streaks.  I don't care what everybody says, a week straight of highs of 0 f and lows of -30 f cannot be good for bees.  So long stretches of bitter cold matched with zero days of cleansing flight weather makes for poor overwintering of colonies. 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 08, 2013, 11:21:52 pm
jim, agriculture has changed since 1955.  in the south east we grow more pine trees than anything now.  this means a lot of natural forage is simply gone as well as a lot of crops that the bees used.  we don't have the plants to sustain the populations that we had 60 years ago.  there is way more going on that gmo and new pesticides.  if ddt didn't wipe them out i don't think nicotine based pesticides can.  add mites and beetles plus various viruses and the fact that bees from every state get crammed together in california where bees from one region are exposed to (and carry home) strains of those pests and viruses.  beekeeping is killing the bees as fast as anything.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: derekm on April 09, 2013, 08:55:17 am
This is all getting too much like the "Sheep look up"  by John Brunner.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 09, 2013, 10:41:16 am
Yes, bee numbers have declined as have the beekeepers (until recently, but those are mostly non commercial).  What are you getting at?

The USA have only 1/2 many bees now as in 1955 or so.



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Yes, you stated that prior and I accepted the given.  But what's your point?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: 10framer on April 09, 2013, 10:48:07 am
This is all getting too much like the "Sheep look up"  by John Brunner.

i don't think america is going to burn just yet.  i do think that aside from the mid west and some of our mountain ranges we've changed the face of the continent an awful lot over the last 200 years and it hasn't been for the better.  
as far as the honeybee issues go, i think the average beekeeper here has probably learned to expect 20 percent losses or more due to mites and beetles and the really big losses are mostly if not all found within the migratory pollination industry.  i also think we really messed the bees up through what is basically line breeding over the last 100+ years.  we bred a lot of diversity out of the honeybee and that is biting us in the posterior now.  
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 10, 2013, 08:31:55 am
       
Yes, you stated that prior and I accepted the given.  But what's your point?

D Coates.......

Why must there be a point???
The USA has lost 2.5 million hives sense the 1950s THIS is a fact not my opinion.



       BEE HAPPY Jim 134  :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 10, 2013, 04:41:15 pm
To me?  Yes.  Why say something if there's no point?  So the US has lost 2.5 million hives since the '50's, you've stated this 3 times now.  So what?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: dfizer on April 10, 2013, 05:05:34 pm
I think the "point" is that there are far fewer bees now than years ago... just goes along with the theme in the subject line.  I found it interesting and compelling.  I often give talks about beekeeping to my sons private school and this fact or as you call it point only adds to the concept that bees may be struggling.  It may encourage others go get involved and take up beekeeping... get my point?

Could it be that you are being a bit argumentative? Arguably, one could very well ask what your point was in asking what his point was... 

It's ok to lighten up a bit sometimes!~   8-)

David
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 10, 2013, 06:47:14 pm
The USA have only 1/2 many bees now as in 1955 or so.

            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)



They are a lot less pollinators to pollinate food crops and I believe the U.S.A.  Population has gone up a lot since the fifties.


            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 09:28:34 am
D Coates.....
Maybe you can understand this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOibhTS8-o (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zOibhTS8-o)




                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 11, 2013, 10:32:27 am
I watched the "news" article the first time but thanks for the excerpt.  I knew there was a point you were trying to make.  What the beekeeper is claiming is anecdotal.  As soon as there's an actual shortage of food due to bees not being able to set crops then the claims will get some traction.  Until then it's merely another boy crying wolf.  CCD, Neonics, GMO, HFCS, monoculture's, bee shortages, blah blah blah, yet the shelves always seem to be stocked of whatever we want. 

People eventually get numb to all the doom and gloom claims people push about the sky falling, Mr. Blather and this article are no exception.

Dfizer, I assumed that's what Jim134 was beating around the bush at, but assuming can get you in trouble.  Do you now see my point?  I too do presentations at the school my children attend as well as BSA, I promote others getting into beekeeping and help local newbees if they request it.  But when asked about this kind of gobbledygook I roll my eyes, voice my opinion, and change the subject back to actual beekeeping.

Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 11:22:38 am
I watched the "news" article the first time but thanks for the excerpt.  I knew there was a point you were trying to make.  What the beekeeper is claiming is anecdotal.  As soon as there's an actual shortage of food due to bees not being able to set crops then the claims will get some traction.  Until then it's merely another boy crying wolf.  CCD, Neonics, GMO, HFCS, monoculture's, bee shortages, blah blah blah, yet the shelves always seem to be stocked of whatever we want. 

People eventually get numb to all the doom and gloom claims people push about the sky falling, Mr. Blather and this article are no exception.

Dfizer, I assumed that's what Jim134 was beating around the bush at, but assuming can get you in trouble.  Do you now see my point?  I too do presentations at the school my children attend as well as BSA, I promote others getting into beekeeping and help local newbees if they request it.  But when asked about this kind of gobbledygook I roll my eyes, voice my opinion, and change the subject back to actual beekeeping.


D Coates....

You may have watched it but did you understand it ???
Do you now see my point?



              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 11, 2013, 04:24:48 pm
Oh I understood it perfectly.  Some people simply find it easier to accept and dwell on the negative without really considering the claims. 

Speaking of which lets do some math.  It's a common claim that 1/3 of all food is reliant upon bees for pollination correct?  The US population has increased from 151 Million in 1950 to 570 million in 2010 correct?  The amount of bees has gone down from 5 million hives in 1950 to 2.5 million hives in 2010 correct?  Going from 1950 numbers, how are we able to create food for 3.7 times the population with only 1/2 of the bees?  As per those accepted claims we should all be starving yet obesity is epidemic. 

This is exactly why this kind of Chicken Little stuff gains no traction.  Do you understand that?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 11, 2013, 04:59:48 pm
The amount of bees has gone down from 5 million hives in 1950 to 2.5 million hives in 2010 correct?   Do you understand that?

The same has happened everywhere.
But if you look honey yields, they have gone up-

Reason is that 50 years ago colonies were 1/3  that of modern hives.

I do not know about professional hives in USA, but hobbiest kept all kind of unbreeded bugs. Walk away and do nothing hives.

People has moved from farm villages to cities. Whose fault is that?

In good old days like in USA, it was easy to make honey when state byed the honey which you was not able to sell.
Open markets came and lazy business men dropped off.

Number of hives dos not tell much aboput number of bees or avout wellfare of bees.  But of course now CCD is a big issue and quite much mystery

(http://geo-mexico.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/honey-graph.jpg)

(http://www.thefarmsite.com/reports/contents/12-4-20Farm9.gif)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 05:22:32 pm
D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: bilder on April 11, 2013, 06:15:41 pm
I would bet good money that GMO's play a part in it all.

When Monsanto makes a plant that can have roundup dumped on it and still live, you are asking for trouble.

Farmers now use herbicides like Roundup on their crops without fear of losing the harvest.  All this poison gets into the soil, water, and any animal that uses the crops for food.  That would be bees, cattle, chickens, and humans. 

It is already taking out the bees, only a matter of time before it starts to wipe out larger critters too.

And through this all, you have former executives from Monsanto, Bayer, and others heading up the very organizations that are supposed to prevent this from happening.  The foxes have been guarding the hen house for decades and we are now facing the result.   They do not care though.  They make millions while our food system is on the brink of collapse.   
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 07:10:51 pm
I do know then Varroa mites first came (1984) to New England beekeeper lost about 75% of the hives





            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 11, 2013, 07:14:08 pm
Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.  Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 07:55:40 pm
D Coates............
 

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.   Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.

Can you proven this ???

D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.



                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

 Did you not see this ???

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 11, 2013, 08:16:13 pm
Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.  Honey is perceived as a commodity and many other folks do it cheaper.  People by in large purchase what cheapest when buying what they perceive as commodities.  I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  The 5 million in '50 to 2.5 million in '10 stats kept getting thrown out and I'm showing how "stats" can be completely deceiving and used to further Chicken Little causes if one is not careful and thinking for themselves.

Bilder,

Your timing with an additional unproven anecdotal evidence theory couldn't have been timed better if I had asked for it.

Finski,

Interesting insight and points.  I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of todays hives, and I don't know if the US govt. ever bought surplus honey though.  Wished the chart on hive honey production was for the US but for this discussion Mexico will have to do.

The USA gov do give price supports to beekeepers in the 70s and maybe the 80s for surplus honey.


               
                  BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 12, 2013, 02:31:11 pm
jim,
i agree that the mite issue has been a big blow for honeybees and now the hive beetle but this is trying to pin everything on pesticides.  
they made one really good point, hives from almost every state are shipped into one small area at the same time then after being exposed to each other shipped back to where they came from.  bees are being exposed to problems from every part of the country.  i'm not a big fan of migratory pollination because of that and the fact that it's stressful on the bees in general.
they also pointed out that when you treat for varroa you are trying to kill a bug on a bug.  so, when people use the various pesticides designed to kill the mites what is that doing to the bees?
is there a problem? definitely.  can it be blamed squarely on agriculture?  i doubt it.  
i think one of the biggest dangers for bees is beekeeping these days.    
I think this makes a lot of sense. I'm an organic farmer, but the crops that get the most spray and are GMO don't tend to be bee crops. I think it's incredibly dangerous to put most of a nation's pollinators in 1 area, on 1 crop and all together.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 12, 2013, 02:32:17 pm
.
What I understood, USA was last summer extremely hot. Am  I right?

It has influences of quality and amount of pollen and it has bad influences on bees wintering.
Huge losses  have appeared on areas which suffer  from dryness.

.
I would guess this was a pretty big stressor for the bees. Extremely hot and extremely dry for 6 weeks here.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 12, 2013, 02:36:02 pm
The drought likely has something to do with the rough winter, but here in Minnesota I believe th bigger issue was the winter weather.  We never got those nice days for bees to break cluster and cleanse/rearrange stores.  Not only that but we had some bad cold streaks.  I don't care what everybody says, a week straight of highs of 0 f and lows of -30 f cannot be good for bees.  So long stretches of bitter cold matched with zero days of cleansing flight weather makes for poor overwintering of colonies. 
Here, too. One of my hives that died had a lot of honey left. Probably just too cold to get to it.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 12, 2013, 03:42:19 pm
I don't know how one would prove the 1/3 strength of today's hives,

I have only my own experience as prove that colonies are now 3 fold compared to 50 years ago.

When I look old hives from internet, which we had in Finland 50 years ago. There was one brood chamber and tiny super. That was all.
In Finland all those hives are now rotten.

Of course every country has its own figures and history.

But why beehive numbers should same as 40 years ago?


In USA it was such system that bees wintered in south and they were moved up to Canada's fields
but was it something 1975 when Canada closed the border.


80% of Canadian beekeepers are professionals.


Svenska bikupa. These hive's origin is propably in Germany.
They were videly used with German Black bees.  Very few use any more German Blacks
.

(http://217.70.34.228/artiklar/images/bilder/hl-bikupa.jpg)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 12, 2013, 05:58:52 pm
D Coates............
 

Jim134,

There's no surplus honey because commercial folks make more money in pollination.

Can you proven this ???

D Coates....

IMHO What you need to know is how many bee hives in the 50s were on honey production and how many were on pollination and how many were on making bee packages and you need to know these same numbers for 2013.   I do know the USA used to have surplus honey WWII to 1985 or so 1985 to now no  surplus honey.

                 BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

 Did you not see this ???

               BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)

Yes I did.  That's why I said, I have no interest in heading down the honey, pollen, and package hives rabbit holes.  That's a fools errand.

As for proving there's more money in pollination than honey?  Okay, let's do the math again.  You're currently making $125 to $150 per strong hive per almond contract.  Then you move to various fruit trees where you'll make another $75 to $100 per hive.  The you can head to the Blueberries, cranberries, strawberries, raspberries, and black berries where you can make $50 to $75 per hive.  Then head off for squash, pumpkins, peppers etc. for $25 to $50 per hive. 

As a commercial beekeeper let's assume you hit 3 of the four and get the lowest rates.  You've grossed $250 per hive.  To make something similar via honey getting a very generous $3 per pound of honey you'd have to produce over 80 pounds of honey per hive.  Drop it to 2.50$ and it's 100 pounds etc.  Pick up a 4th pollination and or get a slightly higher pollination rate and you can quickly see how honey doesn't pay like pollination. 

This is especially true when demand outstrips supply as was shown in the "news" report.  A vacuum has been created by the supposed shortage of bees, pollination prices are going to go up, new beekeepers will enter the market to fill this vacuum, prices will go back down.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: derekm on April 12, 2013, 06:40:00 pm

what happened to all the other pollenators?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 13, 2013, 10:40:50 pm
D Coates......
Is Kim Flottum also wrong ???

http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/opinion/flottum-bees-death/index.html?hpt=us_t5 (http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/02/opinion/flottum-bees-death/index.html?hpt=us_t5)





             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 14, 2013, 06:18:19 am

what happened to all the other pollenators?

The world is full of pollenators, all kind of bugs. And most of food pollination happens via wind and via self pollination.
Lets cry together.



.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 14, 2013, 01:50:22 pm
  Every year its the same keepers that consistently supply premium hives
theres no secret that lack of bee forage has a huge impact on colony health
theres also no secrete that varoa can disseminate your hive count---last year there
was a big push to get APIVAR a section 18-there where pending lawsuits against
makers of miticides that contain the active ingredient AMITRAZ for off label non approved
treatments as a result the the products where pulled from market shelves in the USA
this forced the approval of apivar with its active ingredient Amitraz-small victory for section 18
this had huge impact on commercial world-amitraz was smuggled in from MEXICO and flown in
legally from AUSTRALIA cost was at a premium---
nutritional needs where guided more by economic attitudes rather than bees needs-costs of protein sub
are monumental in the commercial world--
no longer can beekeepers skate by and cash in on the almond pollination gold rush--
this years crop was set and looks to be near record lbs per acer--and it was done by the keepers who
understand the cause and effects of mites and nutrition and will manage there colonies by tending the bees needs
 :)  yes times are a changing RDY-B
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 14, 2013, 03:46:14 pm
Bret Adee, who is an owner, with his father and brother, of Adee Honey Farms of South Dakota, the nation’s largest beekeeper, described mounting losses.

“We lost 42 percent over the winter. But by the time we came around to pollinate almonds, it was a 55 percent loss,” he said in an interview here this week.

I believe Adee Honey Farms of South Dakota, has about 85,000 Hives.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/science/earth/soaring-bee-deaths-in-2012-sound-alarm-on-malady.html?smid=fb-share (http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/29/science/earth/soaring-bee-deaths-in-2012-sound-alarm-on-malady.html?smid=fb-share)



              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 14, 2013, 04:20:08 pm
thats a lot of hives to treat for mites--beekeepers have been blaming farmers for loses since the beginning
AG is not going to change-keepers must adapt to survive--there is a blurry line these days between CCD and
systemic pesticide--the days of pollinating row crops back to back or as some seam to think 4 sets one right after the other
are gone --almonds drive the beekeeping industry--after almonds there are no loses only gains :lol: intil august--management
of livestock is what we are talking about-there is no shortage of bees after almonds and as long as the almond crop gets set there never will be -my bees are the best since the past ten years -perfect weather has them busting at the seams
there was no ran in almonds this year -bees made honey and came back heavy-its not even may and i am double suppering
with the bottom supper full- :) most years they swarm at this time --this year drawn comb above held them-because
they where able to move honey up into the supper-not needing feed-dont get me wrong any press for beekeepers helps shed light on are la-bores problems -but doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result each time part of the strugle
beekeepers bring on them selfs-- 8-) RDY-B
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: RHBee on April 15, 2013, 08:54:31 am
Do you all think that we can agree that we have a situation here? The honey bee is under attack on many fronts. I don't care which way you look at it the outlook is dire. There are so many factors that are out side of our control.
I for one can't sit back and accept the given that I should expect 20-30% losses. I am a firm believer in the saying "You can't do what you've always done and expect to get what you've always got". Beekeepers have to change their ways. In the face of adversity the adaptable can survive. In chaos lies opportuinity.
This is how I see this situation. I know I'm new to beekeeping but I'm no stranger to problem solving. There are basics to any trade or craft but then it comes down to the individual.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 15, 2013, 10:45:10 am
Reason is that 50 years ago colonies were 1/3  that of modern hives.

Finski.........
    Most all beekeepers around where I live have used Langstroth hives for the lasts 125 years or so.



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 15, 2013, 10:59:33 am
Reason is that 50 years ago colonies were 1/3  that of modern hives.

Finski.........
    Most all beekeepers around where I live have used Langstroth hives for the lasts 125 years or so.



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


And your bees there has been as productive layers like modern bees?

Where have you lost your breeding skill?

At least all bee races have come from Europe and in Europe hives have bee smaller 100 years ago.

. yes, I have seen a story about langstrothy hive...

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 15, 2013, 11:08:58 am
Jim 134,

From the questions and links you keep posting you spend a whole lot of time looking for bad news.  It's easy to find bad news and worry yourself sick over it.  If that's how you want to spend your time so be it, but I honestly feel sorry for you.  Try turning off the computer, TV, and radio to head outside and enjoy the outdoors.  As for the video, it was from 2008 and it's CNN.  Notice how they claimed only 25% of all food needs bees not the 1/3 that's bandied about now?

I respect Kim, his book Backyard Beekeeper is the first one I read that got me into beekeeping.  His opinion is a exactly that.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 15, 2013, 11:20:19 am

 hives for the lasts 125 years or so.


Jim, when you started 55 years ago, what size were the hives? How many langstroth boxes they had?

Here German Black bee disturbed beebreeding. Most of beekeepers did not selected their queens. They just kept them.

Then 25 years ago varroa started to kill colonies. German black went to sky and old fashion hives rottened.
You cannot keep modern queen in old fashion small hives.

Now almost 100% of  hives are here langstroth and most of hives are poly material.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 15, 2013, 11:47:54 am
Oh I understood it perfectly.  Some people simply find it easier to accept and dwell on the negative without really considering the claims. 

Speaking of which lets do some math.  It's a common claim that 1/3 of all food is reliant upon bees for pollination correct?  The US population has increased from 151 Million in 1950 to 570 million in 2010 correct?  The amount of bees has gone down from 5 million hives in 1950 to 2.5 million hives in 2010 correct?  Going from 1950 numbers, how are we able to create food for 3.7 times the population with only 1/2 of the bees?  As per those accepted claims we should all be starving yet obesity is epidemic. 

This is exactly why this kind of Chicken Little stuff gains no traction.  Do you understand that?
I doubt the foods we are getting obese on are pollinated by bees.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 15, 2013, 01:00:30 pm
.
Stupid debating.

But that is not stupid that the biggest bee company loses 40%  of hives. It is not at least lack of skills.

Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 15, 2013, 02:03:12 pm
I doubt the foods we are getting obese on are pollinated by bees.

Undoubtedly.  I also question that 1/3 of all food must be pollinated by bees.  Are we talking physical mass, physical weight, caloric value, monitary value?  People like to spout the 1/3 of all food claims needing bees but are they simply parroting someone else?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 15, 2013, 02:52:25 pm
.
Stupid debating.

But that is not stupid that the biggest bee company loses 40%  of hives. It is not at least lack of skills.



 this is not a new situation for the countries largest operation--2008 just as bad

  http://blogs.covchurch.org/newswire/2008/05/30/6324/ (http://blogs.covchurch.org/newswire/2008/05/30/6324/)

**Last December, Adee sent 155 semi-trailers carrying 70,000 hives to California in order to pollinate the crops. Within two months he had lost 28,000 hives – 50 semi-trailers worth of bees. Each hive can have 40,000 to 60,000 bees.**


 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 15, 2013, 08:14:49 pm

 hives for the lasts 125 years or so.


Jim, when you started 55 years ago, what size were the hives? How many langstroth boxes they had?

Finski.......

When you started 56 years ago, what size were the hives?
(langstroth) This is the same size as today available in both 8 and 10 in frames hives

How many langstroth boxes they had? ALL
I over wintered in 2 Hive Body 10 frames deeps (9 5/8") 1957 to 1983
Now I use all 10 frames mediums 3 for the brood nest (6 5/8") 1984 to Now


              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 15, 2013, 10:01:39 pm
[
How many langstroth boxes they had? ALL

Can you answer, did they had 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 langstroth boxes.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 16, 2013, 04:05:48 am
How many langstroth boxes they had? ALL

Can you answer, did they had 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 langstroth boxes.

Comb Honey supers 4 3/4"
Shallow Super 5 3/4"
Medium Supers 6 5/8''
Deeps Hive Body 9 5/8"





            
                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 16, 2013, 04:37:29 am
[
Comb Honey supers 4 3/4"
Shallow Super 5 3/4"
Medium Supers 6 5/8''
Deeps Hive Body 9 5/8"



At least you have  good memory.  I do not even remember what I have now in hives.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Duane on April 16, 2013, 02:57:59 pm
I doubt the foods we are getting obese on are pollinated by bees.

Undoubtedly.  I also question that 1/3 of all food must be pollinated by bees.  Are we talking physical mass, physical weight, caloric value, monitary value?  People like to spout the 1/3 of all food claims needing bees but are they simply parroting someone else?
If I were to assume the only pollinators are honey bees and if I were to assume that all honey bees were to die, I'm having trouble coming up with ANY significant food eaten by the masses which would no longer be pollinated. 

For example, almonds are a crop, which if were no longer pollinated would be devastating to almond growers.  However, how much of the diet of the obese masses do almonds play a part of?  True, they may not get to eat their deep fried, sugar encrusted, almond snack while watching TV.  But, if they couldn't get almonds, would they their bodies know it? 

What am I missing here, what food would make a difference to the masses, if it was not pollinated?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 16, 2013, 03:58:33 pm
.
Guys are just breeding self pollinating almond.


Agricultural Scientists Develop Self-Pollinating Almond Trees


Apr. 8, 2010 — Self-pollinating almond trees that can produce a bountiful harvest without insect pollination are being developed by Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists. This is good news for almond growers who face rising costs for insect pollination because of nationwide shortages of honey bees due to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) and other factors.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 16, 2013, 04:15:27 pm
If I were to assume the only pollinators are honey bees and if I were to assume that all honey bees were to die, I'm having trouble coming up with ANY significant food eaten by the masses which would no longer be pollinated. 

Any fruits or nut that are not self pollinating is all I'm coming up with.  Some folks don't want bees around during their pollination as it creates seeds in the otherwise self pollinating fruit (clementines).  I don't see how the 1/3 pollination number can be claimed.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 16, 2013, 04:20:18 pm
.
What I should do is to kill all little birds which eate my self pollinated berries! GRRRRR

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 16, 2013, 05:10:47 pm
How many langstroth boxes they had? ALL

Can you answer, did they had 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, or 8 langstroth boxes.

Comb Honey supers 4 3/4"
Shallow Super 5 3/4"
Medium Supers 6 5/8''
Deeps Hive Body 9 5/8"





            
                      BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Finski .......
I Forgot one use a lot in the Western part of the USA 7 5/8" Supers and are still maker today at Western Bee www.westernbee.com (http://www.westernbee.com) 7 5/8" Supers are not use a lot in New England where I live.



                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 16, 2013, 06:11:32 pm
.
Guys are just breeding self pollinating almond.


Agricultural Scientists Develop Self-Pollinating Almond Trees


Apr. 8, 2010 — Self-pollinating almond trees that can produce a bountiful harvest without insect pollination are being developed by Agricultural Research Service (ARS) scientists. This is good news for almond growers who face rising costs for insect pollination because of nationwide shortages of honey bees due to Colony Collapse Disorder (CCD) and other factors.


 there is much to be learned in this area-first the term self pollinate is often misused as is this case--what they are developing are self fertile strains-there is a difference--and it takes less bees -there will always be bees in almonds
 ;) ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 16, 2013, 07:01:41 pm
.
I do not know what they are doing but I read "self-pollinating".

"After 20 years of fruit-tree breeding and 15 years of working with almonds as director of Burchell Nursery’s breeding program, John Slaughter is edging closer to his goal of developing commercially viable self-fertile Nonpareil and California-type almond varieties."


Plan B
"ARS geneticist Craig Ledbetter is developing self-pollinating almond trees that can produce a harvest of nuts without insect pollination. "
.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Nature Coast Beek on April 16, 2013, 07:46:27 pm
Bear claws would be pretty boring without almonds and I'm sure there are plenty of those "obese" peeps eating them. Just because the average Joe Six Pack eats out of a box doesn't mean we all do. Don't know about y'all but I like my blueberries and blackberry cobbler. Just Google "crops requiring pollinators" and several papers in PDF format pop up with all the facts and figures fer yer cypherin'
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 16, 2013, 11:21:19 pm
**Don't know about y'all but I like my blueberries and blackberry cobbler.**

 yes but from what i hear they grow those all over the place--almonds are only grown in a few
places with success -I also hear the Chinese have devloped quite a taste for almonds but cant grow any  :lol: RDY-B
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 17, 2013, 03:12:09 am
.
I have read that almond is the best productive plant as incomes /acre

.Lets hope that Chineses buy cultivation land from Africa and they hit almond prices down.  :roll:

Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on April 17, 2013, 06:16:55 am
.
I have read that almond is the best productive plant as incomes /acre

.Lets hope that Chineses buy cultivation land from Africa and they hit almond prices down.  :roll:


Finski.........

 I do know almond do grow in North Africa when I was in the Peace Corps in Tunisia I did seen a few hundred hectares of almond trees growing.

RPCV 1983-85 Tunisia 

                BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :) 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 17, 2013, 08:56:37 am
.
Production of almond 2001, tonnes

USA............ 376,480
 Spain .........257,000
 Italy........... 112,812
 Iran ..............97,144
 Morocco......... 81,820
 Greece ...........55,267
 Syria ..............49,487
 Turkey ............42,000
 Pakistan ..........33,236
 Lebanon ..........33,000

Since those years Australian almond production has rised 4 fold in 10 years and is now 53 000 tonnes (2012).
in 2017 production will be 90 000 tonnes
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 17, 2013, 01:41:27 pm
 problem with australia is there are many years they have huge catastrophes drought and even floods
 they are not a stable environment for the kind of yields we get in california---

  http://www.freshfruitportal.com/2011/12/21/aussie-almond-industry-to-crack-greater-global-market-share/ (http://www.freshfruitportal.com/2011/12/21/aussie-almond-industry-to-crack-greater-global-market-share/)

** California is miles ahead of any other region when it comes to almond production with around 82% of the total crop, followed by Spain with 8% and Australia at 3%. But while the Aussies only account for a small fraction of the world’s annual almond cultivation, they have the fastest-growing industry.**

 did not find any data of africa -it is possible they consume all they produce and dont export
  8-) RDY-B
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 17, 2013, 02:31:52 pm
I doubt the foods we are getting obese on are pollinated by bees.

Undoubtedly.  I also question that 1/3 of all food must be pollinated by bees.  Are we talking physical mass, physical weight, caloric value, monitary value?  People like to spout the 1/3 of all food claims needing bees but are they simply parroting someone else?
Like something that comes to be common knowledge, without ever being verified? I know what you mean. I know that a ton of the foods I love most do need bee pollination.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 17, 2013, 02:34:51 pm
I doubt the foods we are getting obese on are pollinated by bees.

Undoubtedly.  I also question that 1/3 of all food must be pollinated by bees.  Are we talking physical mass, physical weight, caloric value, monitary value?  People like to spout the 1/3 of all food claims needing bees but are they simply parroting someone else?
If I were to assume the only pollinators are honey bees and if I were to assume that all honey bees were to die, I'm having trouble coming up with ANY significant food eaten by the masses which would no longer be pollinated. 

For example, almonds are a crop, which if were no longer pollinated would be devastating to almond growers.  However, how much of the diet of the obese masses do almonds play a part of?  True, they may not get to eat their deep fried, sugar encrusted, almond snack while watching TV.  But, if they couldn't get almonds, would they their bodies know it? 

What am I missing here, what food would make a difference to the masses, if it was not pollinated?
How about most fruit and nuts? Both of which make up a significant amount of my family's diet, including almonds. Cucumbers (most), squash, melons, berries.

Then there's seed growing. I don't know if broccoli NEEDS bee pollination to become seed for next year's crop, but I know I see bees all over my broccoli and radishes that have gone to seed. As a vegetable farmer, I would love to know how many seed crops depend on pollination, even if the food version (like a head of broccoli) doesn't.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 17, 2013, 02:38:34 pm
I spent a chunk of yesterday calling 15-20 bee companies across America, desperately trying to find packages. The ONLY place that still had them was in California, but it would cost me $120 just in shipping for 2 packages. Every person I talked to, I asked about availability and demand. They all said bee numbers were way down this year.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 17, 2013, 03:48:07 pm
I know that a ton of the foods I love most do need bee pollination.

It is quite childish idea that food froduction of the world depends on honey bee. Of course that is one of the hypes we love, but it really has no base.

First: nothing is killig honey bees. There is no evidence for that.

Food production and honeybees are spead so widely that if somewhere happens something, it is only a piece of cake.

Common food is not depend on bees: wheat, rice, potato, corn, cucumbers .....

World is full of bugs which pollinate flowers.

When I looked in Malaysia  fruit trees, coconuts and what ever, it is difficult to find honeybees. There are much pollinating bus like giant bumbblebees, solitary bees,  and so on.  In plant catalogue they say that it is honeybee which pollinate flowers.

For example it said that tomato needs bumbblebees. That is not true. The stem needs only saking that pollen drops from flowers.


Bees are dying...It has too much goal oriented propaganda. Childish crying.

Actually scietists are crying more money to their projects. I have seen that too many times.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 17, 2013, 03:51:11 pm
.
Error in cucumber production: they are pollinated


(http://puutarha.net/keskustelukanava/img/20097/86269.jpg)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 17, 2013, 05:55:57 pm
I know that a ton of the foods I love most do need bee pollination.

It is quite childish idea that food froduction of the world depends on honey bee. Of course that is one of the hypes we love, but it really has no base.

First: nothing is killig honey bees. There is no evidence for that.

Food production and honeybees are spead so widely that if somewhere happens something, it is only a piece of cake.

Common food is not depend on bees: wheat, rice, potato, corn, cucumbers .....

World is full of bugs which pollinate flowers.

When I looked in Malaysia  fruit trees, coconuts and what ever, it is difficult to find honeybees. There are much pollinating bus like giant bumbblebees, solitary bees,  and so on.  In plant catalogue they say that it is honeybee which pollinate flowers.

For example it said that tomato needs bumbblebees. That is not true. The stem needs only saking that pollen drops from flowers.


Bees are dying...It has too much goal oriented propaganda. Childish crying.

Actually scietists are crying more money to their projects. I have seen that too many times.

.

I realize there are many native bees pollinating crops--I see them on my fruit trees every spring. However, if ag production keeps up the way it is in many areas--very monoculture--we should also be worried about loss of native bees.

I saw very few natives when I first took back my 1 1/2 acres from conventional grain production. After a few years, I saw more and more and now I could depend on them to get the job done. I got into beekeeping because my first few years as a fruit and vegetable grower, I didn't see any pollination happening until my neighboring beekeeper got his hives back into the neighborhood.

I guess the 15-20 bee companies I just talked to yesterday are full of crap when they tell me there were large bee losses in America this past winter.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 17, 2013, 06:26:54 pm
Yes, there we're losses.  What were they actually and how do they compare to previous years?  The losses are from what?  It's easy to blame the whole monoculture, big Ag, and chemical companies though there's no proof.  It could have been just as easily Vorroa, nosema, AFB, EFB, stress, starvation or any combination of any of these.

People numb up to these unsubstantiated claims so quickly when the sky doesn't fall as claimed. That's exactly why those boogie man claims gain no traction except by those who go on feelings and anecdotal evidence, not scientifically repeatable evidence and results.  However, going with feelings and anecdotal evidence is exactly how lynch mobs develop.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 17, 2013, 06:30:05 pm

Bees are dying...It has too much goal oriented propaganda. Childish crying.

Actually scietists are crying more money to their projects. I have seen that too many times.

Dang Finski,

You're dead on.  As gentle as a hammer to the forehead, but dead on.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 18, 2013, 12:50:07 am


You're dead on.  As gentle as a hammer to the forehead, but dead on.

Haa. I prefer to die to hammer  than to stupidity.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 18, 2013, 12:57:07 am
.
Like in Canada, beekeepers recommend to put 4 beehives to canola hectare.  So to 50 hectares it oufgt to be 200 hives.
Who idiot is  going to put 200 hives to same canola field?  And canola does not need bee pollination.

In Australia they say that if you want to maximise canola honey yield, put 1 hive / 2 hectares.

-
My favorite is that: If you are a beekeeper, you need NOT to be stubid.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 18, 2013, 01:22:37 am
.
Like in Canada, beekeepers recommend to put 4 beehives to canola hectare.  So to 50 hectares it oufgt to be 200 hives.
Who idiot is  going to put 200 hives to same canola field?  And canola does not need bee pollination.

In Australia they say that if you want to maximise canola honey yield, put 1 hive / 2 hectares.

-
My favorite is that: If you are a beekeeper, you need NOT to be stubid.

.

**Australia presents the most striking dilemma for those isolating their attacks on neonics. On a per crop basis, it is one of the world’s heaviest users of the pesticide—and has among the healthiest bee colonies in the world. Government records indicate there has not been even one adverse experience report from either the public or beekeepers concerning the use of neonics. The other thing they don’t see in Australia—but we do see everywhere else in the world where CCD is claimed—is the Varroa mite, the culprit in the 2005/06 bee death march.**

 8-) RDY-B
 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 18, 2013, 01:44:18 am
.
In Australia ministry and beekeeprs have noticed long time ago nutrition knowledge as a part og beekeeping.

They first sector in beekeeping is diseases, and the second nutrition.

They have found CCD-type dwingling in beehives if the yield plant is unifloral.

a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers.

Like blueberry plantation, Australians have measured that blueberry is very poor plant as pollen and as nectar plan.

I have had hives on natural blueberry pastures many times and thera hives are starving. I have here hundreds hectares billberry around hives and bees get nothing from it except very wetty nectar. So you move hive to blueberry pollinating duty and what happens.


https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054

FAT BEES. SKINNY BEES. -a manual on honey bee nutrition for beekeepers-. A report for the Rural Industries. Research and Development Corporation ...
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Duane on April 18, 2013, 10:07:56 am
Bear claws would be pretty boring without almonds and I'm sure there are plenty of those "obese" peeps eating them. Just because the average Joe Six Pack eats out of a box doesn't mean we all do. Don't know about y'all but I like my blueberries and blackberry cobbler. Just Google "crops requiring pollinators" and several papers in PDF format pop up with all the facts and figures fer yer cypherin'
I'm glad no one suggested there'd be no tomatoes in pizza sauce.  :-D

Yes, I know most people do eat some pollinated foods from time to time.  And some people do enjoy some pollinated foods often.  And there are many crops requiring pollinators.  But what I'm asking here is about significant (in amounts) foods eaten by the masses rather than the few.  Personally, my diet would be much reduced by loss of pollinated foods.  But most people I know think I eat weird.

Sounds like fruits and nuts is what most here have suggested.  What portions do those supply in most people's diets?  I'm thinking they are at an insignificant level. 

Now, if you are a honey bee seller, or a honey bee equipment seller, or a honey bee researcher, why not ride the wave of the hype?  But do the ends justify the means?  If some logic and reasoning is not applied, once the wave crashes, you may be left high and dry with little sympathy for another ride.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 18, 2013, 10:40:51 am
.
Nuts are self pollinating.

Nobody is taken from you pollinted food.  it is like "if you are not nice, Santa will not bring to you presenst".

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 18, 2013, 11:48:07 am
Now, if you are a honey bee seller, or a honey bee equipment seller, or a honey bee researcher, why not ride the wave of the hype?  But do the ends justify the means?  If some logic and reasoning is not applied, once the wave crashes, you may be left high and dry with little sympathy for another ride.

Thwack!!!...  (That was the sound an arrow makes when it hits the target dead on.)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 18, 2013, 10:36:00 pm
Here's a thought, perhaps much more of people's diets should come from pollinated foods rather than grains and grain-fed meat.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 19, 2013, 03:06:00 am
Here's a thought, perhaps much more of people's diets should come from pollinated foods rather than grains and grain-fed meat.

 Sounds revolutionary.  You are going to abandon 90% of food stuffs.

80 y ago 20% of Finland's fields' harvest was used as fuel : hay and oats. It was horse's food.
Then come tractors and now we have only toy horses everywhere.
.

Cow is a creature which need pollination. Otherwise it does not start to give milk.
Hen does not need pollination.

.

.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 19, 2013, 10:56:04 am
Here's a thought, perhaps much more of people's diets should come from pollinated foods rather than grains and grain-fed meat.

Sure.  That would be great.  How and who's going to police that?  A nanny state with PC food police makes my skin crawl.

Fortunately, for the most part we have the freedom here to eat and drink what we as individuals want.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on April 19, 2013, 11:20:22 am
I would never suggest policing it or forcing it. But I would say that meat, dairy and grains have enormous lobbies that push in Washington for all things that benefit them. If you think we eat grain and meat-heavy diets today simply because that's what we've always wanted most, I would argue that they've been pushed on us by some powerful lobbies. And subsidized into cheapness.

Fortunately meat and grains are not 90% of the food diversity in the world. It just seems that way since 90% of our diets come from them.

But, back to the topic at hand, does anyone have good information on foods that truly rely on honeybees for pollination? Or even bees in general?
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: BeeMaster2 on April 19, 2013, 12:33:15 pm
Here's a thought, perhaps much more of people's diets should come from pollinated foods rather than grains and grain-fed meat.

Sure.  That would be great.  How and who's going to police that?  A nanny state with PC food police makes my skin crawl.

Fortunately, for the most part we have the freedom here to eat and drink what we as individuals want.
As long as you do not live in NY.
Jim
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: D Coates on April 19, 2013, 01:57:59 pm
As long as you do not live in NY.
Jim

Hense "for the most part".  It's shelved currently as it's working through the court but Bloomburg appears to have his eye on food police.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: rdy-b on April 20, 2013, 07:41:01 pm
 take time to read this and find out whats realy going on---         

 
http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d/files/What_Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf (http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d/files/What_Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf)
 
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Finski on April 20, 2013, 07:53:49 pm
.
Bees have allready died 8 years. How long it is going to continue?
-
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on May 03, 2013, 12:02:03 pm
Here are a few more problems for a commercial beekeeper

http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=d35e939f49&e=c77bf64a2f (http://us1.campaign-archive1.com/?u=5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d&id=d35e939f49&e=c77bf64a2f)



            BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: hardwood on May 03, 2013, 12:18:42 pm
Citrus sprays got me last year. Found out the poison was mustang.

Scott
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: CapnChkn on May 05, 2013, 11:32:27 am
Foods that don't need bee pollination are the main foods the world eats because they produce, are more easily planted, store easily, and grow under harder conditions.

There's a reason foods like this are considered sacred in some cultures.  Rice, Wheat, Barley, and Maize have all been lifted to a "holy" status in different times, under different cultures, and even in ours.

"Bread."  Made from wheat.  It's used at communion to remind us of the sacrifice Jesus Christ made.  Barley was the symbol of Demeter or Ceres, and where we get the word Cereal.  Rice is the most widely grown crop in the world, and rice flour is used to bless with; though I can't think of an example, and Maize is the sacred food of Native Americans and has been for thousands of years.

Even the Lakota, who are hunter-gatherers traditionally, have maize as one of the four sacred foods.  To make offerings with.  Spring water, Dried meat (Preferably Buffalo), Dried berries (Preferably Chokecherries), and Corn (Maize)...

The simple truth is:  If we tried to feed the world using nothing but the foods bees pollinate, we would starve.
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: hardwood on May 05, 2013, 09:11:45 pm
If we ate only the foods don't pollinate it would be one bland diet!

Scott
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: Jim134 on May 05, 2013, 09:40:36 pm
  :th_thumbsupup: :goodpost:



             

                       BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: luvin honey on May 06, 2013, 11:50:36 am
Both quite true--I'm grateful for easy staple foods, and I'm grateful for all the rest, too :)
Title: Re: This year marks the highest losses of honey bee populations in the U.S.
Post by: melliferal on May 06, 2013, 01:23:23 pm
take time to read this and find out whats realy going on---         

 
http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d/files/What_Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf (http://gallery.mailchimp.com/5fd2b1aa990e63193af2a573d/files/What_Happened_to_the_Bees_This_Spring2013_opt.pdf)
 

That is a measured and well-researched paper by Mr. Oliver. 

Pesticides are of course a problem; but it's too easy to say "neonics" every time any issue comes up with the bees; it's like announcing that every dead-out is "CCD" - in both cases it's some problem you personally cannot avoid, and therefore there's no reason to scrutinize your own beekeeping.  I certainly applaud the efforts of those working on the Pesticide Problem, but what's going on with our bees is more complex than that any one thing and we owe it to our industry and our bees to explore every corner of what's going on.  That means honestly identifying what problems are neonics, what problems are neonics-plus-x, and what problems aren't pesticide related at all.