5 frame nuc (Deeps) verses 3 lb. package?

[harvey]

In amount of bee's how does a 3 lb package compare to a five frame nuc?   I am considering buying a nuc next monday.  It is a five frame with a carnolian queen.  They guy wants 128 dollars for it.  I take my deep and five frames and for 128 bucks he puts the five frames, along with the current laying queen into my hive body.  Is this a good price?   How do Carnies compare to Italians??  How fast will a nuc build up verses a package???  and lastly,  what do I do when I get to many hives????

[bee-nuts]

I cant answer all your questions but $128 is to much for me.  I heard someone around my neck of the woods was selling 3lb packages for $120 too.  I think these prices are highway robbery but maybe thats just me.  A nuc will build up faster.  Oh, current laying queen?  How old is she?  3 years old?  I would think twice about this if I were you.

[The Bix]

I picked up a Carniolan queen in a cardboard nuc a few weeks ago for $90.  $128 is a bit much in my mind.

[gardeningfireman]

I have seen 5 frame nucs advertised from $85 to $125. Three pound packages seem to average about $80. Nucs build up faster because they already have various stages of brood, foragers and nurses, and drawn comb. When you purchase a nuc, you should get a young queen with it. When you have enough hives, either sell some, move some to another location, or just let them swarm naturally to replenish the wild population.

[AllenF]

Packages are nice when you already have drawn brood ready for bees, and they come in the mail so you don't have to drive very far.  Nucs are great because you have a already have a hive (though small) with them.  Nucs are easier to install, and are probably better for the money, but I think anything over 125$ is robbery.   I would not pay over 100$ for a nuc unless I was in dire need or they were some good bees.

[harvey]

probably a dumb question but I would stand a better chance of seeing some surplus honey from a nuc verses a package right?

[luvin honey]

I'm pretty sure that's a yes, since they are set up to explode into action.

[MacfromNS]

I payed $300 for 2 nucs last year with Carniolan

[harvey]

I like that answer.  Now upon placing them into a ten frame deep we really havn't had a main flow yet so I should be good to put them in the center and undrawn frames on the outer edges?  I am thinking then when the five frames hatch of moving those frames up into a second box and replacing the frames down below with foundationless?   I want to transition the hive but kinda unsure on how or when.  maybe wait till spring when the bees are moved up and then put all foundationless in the bottom?   or move frames outward kinda checkerboarding them with empty frames?   Maybe add five frames (foundationless) now and then move one frame to the second box when it is called for along with nine empty foundationless?    Bee's are so much fun!   so many questions!!!   I don't know why I am so facintated by them but I defineately am!

[harvey]

MacfromNS    How did the Carnies do for ya?   I have never heard much of them.

[gardeningfireman]

You can alternate foundationless frames with foundation, or you can just go with the foundationless. The bees will draw out their own comb faster than using foundation. I have some of each in my hives, and I am finding nice natural comb on the foundationless frames and absolutely nothing drawn out on the foundation.

[Finski]

.
5 frame nuc is very good if it has 3 brood frames. When  one brood frame emerges, it produces 3 frame bees. So you get almost one box full of bees from the nuc. And new bees are emerging all the time.

Package bees make combs and nurse larvae. It take 4 weeks before they have new bees and the colony start to grow.

First of all, you win 4 weeks summer when you bye a nuc. Soon the nuc is douple size compared to the package.

.

[Finski]

You can alternate foundationless frames with foundation, or you can just go with the foundationless. The bees will draw out their own comb faster than using foundation. I have some of each in my hives, and I am finding nice natural comb on the foundationless frames and absolutely nothing drawn out on the foundation.

That thinking needs a little bit vivid imagination.

Bees draw new combs as soon as they need them. They do not store" new combs.

I recommend foundations. I cannot see any self value in natural combs.

.

[harvey]

The two new packages that I installed I put on all foundation less frames.  They have definately outdone the swarm I hived last year on foundation!  By double!!  The comb looks real nice to, nice and white and they are drawing it straight.  I like the idea that they draw the size they want.  I am also hoping that it helps reduce varroa numbers!  I never did treat the swarm last year and at this point have no intention of treating the two hives that I just put the packages in.  I am crossing my fingers and hoping to raise some bee's that survive on there own. 

[MacfromNS]

MacfromNS    How did the Carnies do for ya?   I have never heard much of them.

Harvey,I like them. One swarmed last Sept and I got it out of tree.First swarm I ever seen,they are not common around here.I didn't take any honey off of them last year, I just divided up .

[gardeningfireman]

[/quote]

That thinking needs a little bit vivid imagination.

Bees draw new combs as soon as they need them. They do not store" new combs.

I recommend foundations. I cannot see any self value in natural combs.

.
[/quote]
Well, the value as I see it is money savings by not buying foundation, healthier and happier bees because they build the comb as they need it as opposed to how we want it, clean wax that isn't recycled from God knows where, and if in the super, cost savings by not buying/renting an extractor. And, based on experience they do build their own comb faster than drawing out foundation.

[wd]

I've read this a post a few times and had the same thoughts on each... Lets not forget that nucs can have their setbacks too. If all one is after is clean fresh comb from the get go, why not start out with a package to begin with. How well does foundationless comb stand up if moved around through out the year?

[fish_stix]

Foundationless stands up real well if it's completely filling the frame. We just finished extracting our orange blossum honey; the foundationless deeps held up very well.

[Finski]

.
That foundation wax dirty is rumour too.
But in USA you should change combs more because you really have black combs. - I see from pictures.

Without  foundations the comb building is the most expencive. Every Lanhstroth box needs 15 kg honey to make combs. Foundation have 1 kg wax and it is value og 7 kg honey.

Further more free comb building means that bees make more dronecells and drones does not forage.

Look here: http://www.honeybeeworld.com/diary/articles/fdnvsdrawn.htm
http://www.apidologie.org/index.php?option=article&access=standard&Itemid=129&url=/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

[bee-nuts]

But I like my black comb.  It is easy to see those eggs in.  Just kidding.

Those commercial folks love to give us their black combs in those five frame nucs we buy. Thats how I got mine.  Every time I pull some out to get rid of them, a colony needs a box and Im short on frames so they go back in.  Whoops!!

Dont worry Finski, I will get rid of them yet!!