22 days still no eggs, give them a few days more then combine?

[windfall]

we split up a hive preparing to swarm 22 days ago. I left quite a few capped and uncapped cells in the parent hive. About a week ago I checked on it and added a SBB and saw a queen outside the nest being denied access and was pretty sure I heard one inside piping as detailed here:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,34073.0.html

Today I went through it again carefully. Saw no queen, saw no eggs.
So I have some questions:
-how many more days should I give them to see if they successfully requeened themselves? I thought anything beyond 25 days post cap was pretty unlikely?
-If I add a frame of eggs to test for a queen do I need to remove the adhering bees? How long do you give them to see if they build cells?

I am reluctant to use the frame of egg test. We have 5 laying colonies right now, but they are all pretty weak (new splits and swarms)and pulling a full frame of drawn comb, eggs and brood would seem to substantially set them back. My intent was to combine some of them together anyway before winter, so I was thinking I could either:

A) combine the hive of concern with a swarm I hived 3 weeks ago. It had a virgin but she is now laying on the 3-4 frames they have drawn. This option seems most attractive as both hives have had a complete brood break, and it seems a shame to waste that management oportunity. I was thinking of using a frame from this swarm to "test" for queenlessness but it's super fragile (no foundation) and I would definetly have to leave the bees on it, hence the earlier question regarding adhering bees.

B) combine with the original queen which was removed as a split 22 days ago

C) purchase in a mated queen from Mike Palmer her in Vt ( I am pretty sure he still ahs them but have not checked yet) I am least inclined to this option as it seems I have the resources "in house" to deal with this.

[D Coates]

How are they acting?  Are they loud, quick to fan, aggressive or lethargic?  Do they act like they have a queen?  How often have you looked for eggs?  22 days does seem long but I've had queen that have had stage fright from me looking too often when I was first starting out.  When in a pinch, I've moved a frame of eggs from a weak hive and left it in the possibly queenless hive for 2 days.  I'll learn my answer by what they do with the cells.  After 2 days I put the frame of eggs back into the "donor" hive.  Otherwise, I'll leave the eggs in the possibly queenless hive to give them an earlier boost.

[windfall]

They are certainly more aggressive the last two time I was in, but not excessively so... and both times weather was moving in shortly. They are pretty easy going just walking around the hive.
I don't have the experience to say weather or not they act like they have a queen.
I had not thought of returning the test frame to the donor hive....that makes a lot of sense ( in my particular situation) so long as it does not make for too much confusion/fighting?

[Kathyp]

i would make my decision on the time of year.  you are heading into winter with some admittedly weak hives.  if you are sure there is no queen, i think my choice would be to combine this one with the weakest of the others.  you don't have a lot of time left for them to build up and build stores.

[FRAMEshift]

i would make my decision on the time of year.  you are heading into winter with some admittedly weak hives.  if you are sure there is no queen, i think my choice would be to combine this one with the weakest of the others.  you don't have a lot of time left for them to build up and build stores.

I agree with this, but be sure there is no queen.  If this were here in North Carolina, I would give the hive 2 more weeks to see if there will be a laying queen, and I would still have time to build up before winter.  But Vermont is a different animal.

[windfall]

Yes, Summer is running fast here and fall is short.
We are just now starting in with Goldenrod and the main fall flows(s). Hard frost usually don't come till end of september/early october but you never know up here.

As I said, I was planning on doing several combines and hopefully going into winter with at least 2 strong and a couple more akin to (nucs) Right now we have 5 laying and 2 we are waiting to see if they start laying.

If the elapsed time is not adequate to feel confident they are queenless and I should do a test with frame of eggs:
Should I brush/ shake off all bees first?
How long without q-cell building is considered "proof" of queen?

Frameshift, I know you run mostly long hives and the hive of concern is a longhive. How do you do combines? I built it so I could super standard boxes as a possibility and was going to do that with newspaper. Do you just add the new hive frames to the front or rear directly?

[Kathyp]

Should I brush/ shake off all bees first?

you can give the frame a gentle shake, but not so hard that you dislodge eggs or larvae.  if the hive needs the bees there's no harm in moving them also.  just make sure you don't move the queen. ;)  there might be a small amount of fussing, but not much.  the nurse bees are interested in tending brood. 
make your move during the warmth of the day so that you don't move so many forages, or have to deal with them.

[FRAMEshift]

Frameshift, I know you run mostly long hives and the hive of concern is a longhive. How do you do combines? I built it so I could super standard boxes as a possibility and was going to do that with newspaper. Do you just add the new hive frames to the front or rear directly?

I mist the frames in both hives with vanilla extract (2 drops in 1 quart of water).  This calms the bees and masks queen pheromone odors.  Since we are talking small hives, there should not be much of a problem anyway.  I would add the frames at the rear (away from the entrance) and do not intermingle the frames.   We also build our boxes for supering but I don't see any reason to do that for the combine.

[windfall]

I will put in a frame with eggs today to test. Does it matter where in the hive I insert it?

As I read up on combines I see very little info on follow-ups once the combine is complete. It seems you would have a split broodnest unless you go back in after a week or so and shuffle things around. Especially so on a long hive if I add to the back...at least 3-4 frames of stores between the old empty broodnest and the new frames with queen and brood.

Do you go back in and consolidate? or just let the bees figure it out themselves?

[FRAMEshift]

I will put in a frame with eggs today to test. Does it matter where in the hive I insert it?

I would just stick it in the middle.  You can leave the nurse bees on the frame as long as you are sure you are not moving the queen.

As I read up on combines I see very little info on follow-ups once the combine is complete. It seems you would have a split broodnest unless you go back in after a week or so and shuffle things around. Especially so on a long hive if I add to the back...at least 3-4 frames of stores between the old empty broodnest and the new frames with queen and brood.

Do you go back in and consolidate? or just let the bees figure it out themselves?

If you have frames that are all honey, I would move them to the far end as you do the combine. 

[windfall]

Frameshift,
when you spray with vanilla, are you pulling each frame and spaying it's face (easy for the 3-4 frames being transferred, but more involved for the larger 12-15 frame hive they are going into), or just spraying down through the gaps of the receiving hive?

[FRAMEshift]

Frameshift,
when you spray with vanilla, are you pulling each frame and spaying it's face (easy for the 3-4 frames being transferred, but more involved for the larger 12-15 frame hive they are going into), or just spraying down through the gaps of the receiving hive?

Probably ok to just spray the 15 frames from the top.  If you aren't moving them, the bees should stay calm.  I would spray the face of the frame facing the frames you move.

[L Daxon]

I've done a lot of egg moving between hives this year and had no problem with the girls from one hive getting along with the nurse bees.  If you are giving a hive a frame of eggs and brood, the needy hives is usually happy to get it and doesn't pay too much attention to the nurse bees that come with it, in my experience.  But it wouldn't hurt to spray with a vanilla spray, or something to mask the pheromones temporarily until they adjust.  Smoke works, too.

[FRAMEshift]

If you are giving a hive a frame of eggs and brood, the needy hives is usually happy to get it and doesn't pay too much attention to the nurse bees that come with it, in my experience.  But it wouldn't hurt to spray with a vanilla spray, or something to mask the pheromones temporarily until they adjust.  Smoke works, too.

I don't bother with spray if it's just a frame of eggs with nurse bees.

[Michael Bush]

>bout a week ago I checked on it and added a SBB and saw a queen outside the nest being denied access and was pretty sure I heard one inside piping as detailed here:

So a week ago you heard them piping.  It will be two to three weeks to a laying queen from when you heard them piping which is another week or two.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesmath.htm

[windfall]

Michael, the "bee math" page is a handy reference that I have used several times this season and quite a bit this last 2 weeks. Thanks for making it available.
I did not realize that piping could be used as a marker on the timeline. I thought queens could be heard piping anytime from just prior to emergence on...even sometimes after mating?

I did add the eggs yesterday. Smoked the hive pretty heavy when I put them in. Peering up through the screen 20 min later the hive was definetly "agitated" but I assumed some confusion would be normal.

[bee-nuts]

I have some queens laying a week or so after they emerge and other take 3 weeks or more.  Usually just as im about to through in the towel on the ones well past any capped brood being left, I find a frame of eggs or young larva.  I just finally found 24 hour larva in one I made with capped queen cells on 7-1-11.  I have others made from same batch that have two or three frames of capped brood already.  Why the huge difference i dont know but I think a breeder should take not of this and breed from the ones that are laying a 7-10 days after emerging.

[windfall]

Well, that large a variation in times is interesting to note. It may well be that I am being a bit impatient. That would certainly be in character for me! But I do also feel that I am strating to get up "against the clock" with the time of year as Kathy and Frameshift pointed out.

I guess I will check on that frame of eggs tomorrow and see what that tells me (is 3 days in the hive enough to test?) . If no q-cells started I will have to decide if I keep giving the colony time or begin searching for their queen to eliminate her and proceed with a combine.

[Kathyp]

3 days is enough and if they have not started cells you can relax a little and give them/her a little more time.