It was in one of my swarms that I got this year. Thanx to the advice from micheal i believe not to smoke them when looking for her. It was no trouble at all to see her, she was huge much bigger than a drones. the ones that I bought and lost were very small compared to this one. If they are all this big after they get started laying I think I might be able to find them. I was about to despair of ever seeing one so I was just going by clues, as to one being present. I have one nuc going in which there seems to be no queen no brood just a lot of uncapped honey. there are very few drones, but when I started it there was a lot of drones, I think I gave them a lot of capped drones back several months ago when I started but they are not so many now. they have been this way for some time, I don't see why they don't have a laying worker by now. I plan to give them some brood to make a queen with, but I don't want to take it frome the small hives. My big hive is populated by a huge population with a very short fuse, and to tell the truth I don't know if I can work it all the way to the bottom. I know I can't without smoke. I will have to do it eventually but they are the mean ones I wrote about earlier and I have to really make myself go into it .. I will just have to do it anyway.lol thanx a lot you guys