Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Bee Curious on June 03, 2013, 05:22:06 pm
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New beekeeper here. Package arrived 23 days ago. I'm running 8 frame all mediums, with foundationless frames. Other than building some wonky comb, the girls seem to be doing well. Due to going foundationless AND horrible weather (unusually hot or unusually cold, and lots of rainy days) I've been feeding 1:1 syrup and a pollen substitute patty, which the bees have been enthusiastically eating. I was looking at my comb repairs today and noticed that some cells contain something the exact same color as the pollen substitute patty. Is it possible that they are storing the patty, like they are also storing pollen and syrup?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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I'm not familiar with pollen patty color but if it's orange(ish) it could be bee bread.
(Im new too and still learning)
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Pollen substitute patty is the color of peanut butter.
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I would lean towards yes. Because after the bee gets back to the hive, it removes the pollen from the pollen baskets and stores the pollen in the honeycomb. The pollen is mixed with honey or nectar and stored as food, called bee bread. Larvae are feed the bee bread for three to five days before becoming pupae. So I believe they are storing it and making bee bread.
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Bees store all pollen in cells because it has to be mixed with honey for them to take it.
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No they don't store it, they either use it or remove it from the hive.
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No they don't store it, they either use it or remove it from the hive.
Collecting nectar for the hive (days 12 to 18)
Young worker bees also take nectar from foraging field bees that are returning to the hive. The house bees deposit this nectar into cells earmarked for this purpose. The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.
http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-the-role-of-the-worker-bee-in-a-hive.html (http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/understanding-the-role-of-the-worker-bee-in-a-hive.html)
Pollen packing [edit]
Pollen brought into the hive for feeding the brood is also stored. It must be packed firmly into comb cells and mixed with a small amount of honey so that it will not spoil. Unlike honey, which does not support bacterial life, stored pollen will become rancid without proper care. It has to be kept in honey cells.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worker_bee)
Pollen is a brightly colored powder that bees collect from male plants and spread to female plants. This process is called pollination and allows plants to reproduce. But pollination is only a side effect of bees collecting pollen. Bees collect pollen to take to their hive to use as food, and there are a couple of ways that bees store pollen for their future use.
Read more: How Do Bees Store Pollen? | eHow http://www.ehow.com/about_6311010_do-bees-store-pollen_.html#ixzz2VFKtTwXt (http://www.ehow.com/about_6311010_do-bees-store-pollen_.html#ixzz2VFKtTwXt)
There is a lot more but here is just a few. Not saying you are wrong, but would love to read your source! Never heard of bees throwing out a protein source not to mention un-effectively working. Please post your source so I may learn from you as well.
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Researched the topic, about throwing out pollen, on just a few sites.. What I came up with is...
Michael Bush, of Bush farms, which is also a member here. "I think it's more likely that it is contaminated with fungicide and it won't ferment. It's supposed to ferment to make bee bread."
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?274608-Bees-throwing-pollen-out-of-the-hive (http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?274608-Bees-throwing-pollen-out-of-the-hive)
Thanks Michael Bush!
But still haven't seen anything about throwing away pollen, just to throw it away. If you have this happening, may wanna check what you are feeding them. Thanks for that push, didn't realize that this could happen. But would still like to know your source, we learn something new everyday and my day just started 2 hours ago! :)
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They very well might haul pollen or pollen substitute out if it falls to the floor as they view things on the floor as trash...
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Look up pollen colors on wikipedia, find some food dye that will color the patty some color not found in nature, put a dyed patty in the hive, and see what happens after the patty starts shrinking. If you find bee bread that color, you've found the answer. If you don't, you have further evidence that they don't store it in bee bread. You still don't know whether they just discarded it, though. You'll need to dissect a few to confirm they've eaten it, and maybe fiddle with the marker so it'll show up in the gut if the dye doesn't work. Maybe radioactive or fluorescent markers. Or just find a biology student looking for a senior or master's thesis.
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There is a lot more but here is just a few. Not saying you are wrong, but would love to read your source! Never heard of bees throwing out a protein source not to mention un-effectively working. Please post your source so I may learn from you as well.
Not wrong! we are talking about pollen patties, not natural pollen brought into the hive by bees. Yes bees will pack natural pollen away into cells to feed young.
Pollen patties on the other hand bees do not store. They either feed it to young or remove it from the hives, but they do not and will not store it. A few years ago while visiting with Randy Oliver this was discussed. He was working on a study where they treated the pollen patty with a fluorescing dye. The pollen patty never showed up in the comb. There has also been other studies done on this but I'm not going to look them up for you just to make a point. The data you supplied is about natural pollen and not pollen patties.
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They very well might haul pollen or pollen substitute out if it falls to the floor as they view things on the floor as trash...
what? they don't have the 5 second rule?!
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I have feeded pollen patty to bees 23 years, and can say that they do not store it.
I have not seen it ion combs and beed do not carry crumbs in their jaws.
Bees eate so little pieces to mouth, that I cannot even see it. If the patty stuff is coarse, bee drop crumbs onto floor like Michael said, or mostly, they stop eating it.
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Thank you, all, for this discussion. I liked the fluorescent dye idea. I guess they are not storing pollen patty, but are storing a similar colored pollen. I am a brand new beek, so I already have so much to look for/at when I open the hive, and I don't want to wear out my welcome with the girls. So far, they have been very patient with my inspections, and repairing their wonky comb. What I should do is film my inspections, with a video cam on a tripod, so I can go back and look at some of the details I miss because I'm nervous and trying to not take too long.
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:? This is a forum where people can learn from one another. Wasn't trying to attack you was asking for general info in order to learn. I do feel however you are being disrespectful, because this is not a post based on my opinions but the facts! That is why I put links up, to show where I am getting my source. I feel I have much to learn about bees, as this is my first year having them, but have been reading and working with them for years with others. So back to what I said before didn't say anyone was wrong but am looking for sources to better understand the bees! That is the only reason I asked that a source be posted. Not looking for points, as this wasn't a debate, just a source... So if anyone else has the "time" and a source that I may read please be so kind and drop one, thank you to those that truly understand how to help people learn!
I like to weigh all the facts, not just opinions! My bees... :jerry: ...my rules!
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Found this Bee Curious;
Pollen substitutes are best not used in conjunction with supers, as the bees may try to store the pollen substitute material in the supers.
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf (http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf)
You be the judge, your bees ;) Still looking online and sent an email to my professor @ UT, in the AG department. I would like to know as well. I have dissected a few to find fungi spores, intestinal scarring and other materials. Bees weren't my thing at time, I was studying soil samples at the time... worms! Lol, I have recently acquired the taste of the bee :) and know the lab isn't the only place to learn, hence why I am out getting field experience. I have a theory about CCD and will have to have my hives up and running for awhile so I can correlate my findings to my theory. I will just message you and let you know what I hear back, this thread may not be so willing to accept new science. Thank goodness we do not use stone wheels anymore! lol. :-D
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there is a process of inoculation with gut microbial and natural pollen that takes place when bees gather
pollen and store it as be bread-the bee bread is undergoing a fermentation process-this insures that no spoilage
takes place in the food source---bees can not inoculate protein substitute thats why they dont store it as surplus
food in the cells--
they store it in there bodies in the form of fat and vitilogen-this is the reserves that substitute supply for the bees
that generate hypergernal glands to produce bee milk-they share this form of protein from bee to bee as needed by trophalaxis this is how the protein reserves are managed---natural pollen is a whole other consideration---- :) RDY-B
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Found this Bee Curious;
Pollen substitutes are best not used in conjunction with supers, as the bees may try to store the pollen substitute material in the supers.
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf (http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/Portals/0/Documents/TDS%20number%209%20pollen%20substitute.pdf)
:-D
All kind of info stuff is moving around. Like that skimmed milk. It is not proper food to bees. 50% of skimmed milk is lactose, what bees cannot digest- Second, when hives have super, it is summer and they do not eate soya-yeast mixtures.
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The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.
No they don't. A pollen collector itself drops the pollen balls into cells. Home bee do not take it from forager.
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The workers similarly take pollen from returning field bees and pack the pollen into cells. Both the ripened honey and the pollen are food for the colony.
No they don't. A pollen collector itself drops the pollen balls into cells. Home bee do not take it from forager.
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They remove this load from their legs when they return to the hive and the house bees store it in a special part of the comb.
http://www.gpnc.org/honeybee.htm (http://www.gpnc.org/honeybee.htm)
Duties of the house bee
The duties of a house bee are -
a) cleaning the hive and the comb
b) feeding the brood
c) caring for the queen
d) making orientation flights
e) comb building
f) ventilating the hive
g) packing pollen, water, nectar or honey into the combs
h) executions
i) guard duty
http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0104e/t0104e05.htm (http://www.fao.org/docrep/t0104e/t0104e05.htm)
That is their words and that is two links. The second was a good read ;) It is an official FAO doc.
I have however witnessed both. In large bee colonies and small, even dying colonies. It's was this eye opener that brought me to bees. In the dying hives the house bees are less eager to help and work.
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I have received the waited email; He stated that the pollen patty is fed directly to the bees. His team has done the fluorescent dye in numerous batches but has never seen it stored in the combs, but did find it in the adults and even in the older larvae. The bees seem to recognize it as a direct food source and consume it when needed and pass it to each other. Study was done and recorded and I was invited to read their findings :lol: excited! This semester can not start up soon enough! Got some lab work I been wanting to do since last month!
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Cool, I hope you find something helpful with your lab work.
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But still haven't seen anything about throwing away pollen, just to throw it away. If you have this happening, may wanna check what you are feeding them. Thanks for that push, didn't realize that this could happen. But would still like to know your source, we learn something new everyday and my day just started 2 hours ago! :)
Hi. Yuo speak now something what you do not know.
I have nursed bees 50 yerars and Michael quite much too.
I have seen a video, how the forager unload thje pollen into cell.
A forager drops directly the pollen load to the cell. It push it off with middle leg.
Then nurser bees back the pollen tighly ontpo cell bottom.
When bees gather pollen, they mix it there 25-50% honey that they can tap the ball.
And I have seen so much pollen patty that I know what they do. I feed every spring about 100 kg patty to bees.
There are some good reports about pollen patty feeding, and no one says that it will stored.
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Thank you cklspencer, I only hope it will yield good result. Didn't doubt you but in the lab facts is what counts, hope you understand.
Finski please reread thread and links! Thank you
In response to your to what I know... well one can only know what one knows! Thank you for your rude comment!
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Finski please reread thread and links! Thank you
Thanks, but I have read all sensible reports about honey bee nutrition from internet. Internet is full all kinds of hobby carbage like Scottish beekeeper's.
The first scientific researches with pollen patty were in 1977, when they compared and tested different
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Was addressing the fact of the matter of what I know. But you obviously skip the post about learning and looking for facts. I will not address the issue no further. Please feel free to pm me anytime with information on your works and books you have written, would've said doctrine but didn't think that word was needed. So let please let me recap; I am almost certain that pollen substitute is not stored and will read the findings myself, I only know what lab studies I have read/ sites I have visited, and this is my first year handling bees in the field. Wow talk about trying to stay on track. Hence I only know what I know and am not ignorant to that fact. Thank you have a great day Sir, see you in my pm. Wonder if the bee space idea came as a shocker to some???
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value to read
Beekeeping cannot be so difficult as you try it to be.
here are some links
Australia
http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/117494/honey-bee-nutrition-supplementary-feeding.pdf (http://www.dpi.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0008/117494/honey-bee-nutrition-supplementary-feeding.pdf)
http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html (http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html)
http://194.47.52.113/janlars/partnerskapalnarp/ekonf/20130516/BrodschneiderCrailsheim2010.pdf (http://194.47.52.113/janlars/partnerskapalnarp/ekonf/20130516/BrodschneiderCrailsheim2010.pdf)
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf (https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/05-054.pdf)
[PDF]
Nutritional Value of Bee Collected Pollens
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/01-047 (https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/01-047)
[PDF]
Honeybee Nutrition
https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/06-052 (https://rirdc.infoservices.com.au/downloads/06-052)
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Thank you cklspencer, I only hope it will yield good result. Didn't doubt you but in the lab facts is what counts, hope you understand.
I understand, I'm the same way. I'm just tiered of looking it up over and over again. I have started to compile the good info I find into evernote so that I can just grab it and link to it but I still have a bunch I need to link over. I would be really interested to here what you will be doing. Are you going to be here in UT doing it or just working with someone here?
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Critical point in larva feeding
I wrote an article about pollen nutrition of nursing bees to Finnish beekeeping magazine this Spring.
I realized one thing in that feeding.
A worker larva is fed 5 days. It eates more after capping too, but the feeding...
A worker larva grows from egg to pupa 1000 times and a queen 1500 times.
First 3 days a larva is quite small but a real jump happens during last 3 days.
That jump, where a larva gets 80% of its weight in 3 days is huge.
And it needs a lot from nurser bees when they react on continuous feeding.
You may imagine for example, if you put 400 hives onto truck and you start to transfer them 500 kilometres and transfer mesh are open during journey? + loding and unloding.
What do you think? How much the bee colony stands that kind of disturbance?
No wonder that amount of brood start to decline when pollination transportation begins from pasture to pasture
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To; Cklspencer, I attend the University of Tennessee. I was doing research on soil samples here, working mostly with earthworms testing them for traces of the high protein feed fed to cattle and seeing if the soil was handling the "biodegrades" of the modified feeds. To our dismay we found that what the cattle passes, even though they have four stomachs, was not being fully absorbed. Which had been expected, but it was how much, not that it didn't absorb all. This made me question my colleagues about the bees. I had seen them doing studies on CCD and was quite astonished that not only bees were disappearing but also other critters as well. In a pasture of approx 38 acres we were losing worms and grubs. The soil had high amounts of trace minerals, highest we had seen anyway. Grass and other plants were growing very well. Well skipping to what I can say, because I know, I think it all may be linked somehow. Now I have to get the evidence, so I intend to get with the a botany team with my theory and see where it takes me. Not saying this will lead to anything conclusive, but hey it's research :-D If it pans out maybe I get my PhD!
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I have a biology researcher education. I have noticed in these forum pages that beeks are not able to understand beekeeping researches. Even if I link original reseaches, guys do no read them. They prefer to believe on old humbug and "I heard " -methods. Like for example how usefull is to invert sugar before feeding. Or why you pay 3-fold price for inverted sugar even if bees do not need it inverted.
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Critical point in larva feeding
I realized one thing in that feeding.
A worker larva is fed 5 days. It eates more after capping too, but the feeding...
A worker larva grows from egg to pupa 1000 times and a queen 1500 times.
for clarification purposes,what do you mean by this, that a pupae grows 1000% and a queen grows 1500% from the egg to pupae stage?
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Larva grows when nurser bees feed them.
Not pupa.
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100% = douple size.
1000% = 10 times.
I did not used percents.