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Author Topic: Grafting to a laying worker nuc  (Read 14084 times)

Offline drjeseuss

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Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« on: May 13, 2015, 11:37:54 am »
I have a few nucs that were split from a full hive.  All four made queens, but only one made it to laying.  One emerged w/ a bad wing, and two disappeared around mating time, likely bird food now.  I pulled the laying queen and combined in the bees from one of the other nucs.  Now, the remaining two continued to work tirelessly, and eventually turned to laying worker.  Now that I'm there, I've heard a few strong opinions...  shake them out and move on is most popular.  Next up is to add frames of brood until they stop laying and make their own real queen, two to three weeks to start that.  Now to my own observations and curiosity.  I've noticed every few days they seem to try making an emergency cell from one of their drone eggs.  Of course this doesn't work, but it seems to me they want a queen.  This in mind, if I give them a few newly grafted cells, are they likely to feed them and finish them out, or will they terminate that before the process can complete?  I've read it both ways, but I'm thinking in terms of behavior...  while they think they have a queen, wouldn't they also see her as a failing queen since all eggs are drone, and want to supercede her?  In this case, wouldn't the main body of workers carry on this process just as they would in a queenright hive where the queen is old or otherwise failing?  If not, what's the hangup?  When these are torn down, is that the laying worker removing competition or the general population removing unnecessary replacement?  For sake of time, I'd like them to take and finish a grafted cell...  failing that I think I'll shake and replace.
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Offline CaseyT

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #1 on: May 13, 2015, 08:44:32 pm »
It's fascinating to me that you post this very topic today!  This is the very reason why I joined the forum today in the first place!

I have an observation hive that I started from my main hive, probably about four weeks ago.  I was purposely doing this as a way to raise a new queen and essentially create a split, while allowing my young kids the learning opportunity of having the observation hive in the house.  The first attempt did not yield a queen attempt as the bees only clustered on the frame of capped brood, rather than the frame of young brood.  After a week and the young brood dying and turning rancid, I removed that frame and replaced with another frame of young brood, and lots more bees.  This time the cluster was large enough to cover both frames adequately and they started half a dozen emergency cells.  The queen emerged over this past weekend and appears healthy and in good shape.

However, about two-three days ago, I noticed a worker that the bees responded differently to and I began to suspect that I had developed a laying worker.  Last night, I was able to confirm that she is a laying worker as I observed her laying an egg.  Interestingly, for a brief moment, both the virgin queen and the laying worker came into contact and the queen made some brief move toward the worker but the worker moves around the hive so quickly that I could not observe what the queen intended to do with the contact.

I have not previously run into any literature or anecdotal accounts of how the hive, queen, or laying worker will interact and what the outcome will be in these cases.  So, it goes without saying, that I'm fascinated to see how this situation will resolve.  The laying worker is apparently an older bee, as she is quite bald, and I have no idea if her age has played into her reproductive development.  The worker appears to have completely ignored the presence of the virgin queen, so I'm curious as to whether they recognize each other as queens and whether this will have an impact on the queen's mating process and subsequent interaction.

Unfortunately, our weather here is forecasted to be poor mating weather through this coming weekend, so I am very hopeful that the weather will turn in time for her to mate appropriately so that I can observe the outcome.  Will the pheromones from the mated queen revert the worker's reproductive system to the inactive state?  Will they fight for dominance?  Will they continue to lay side by side until ultimately one of them dies naturally (likely the worker)?  The queen did appear to kill the other queens in their cells, and those cells have been torn down for the most part, so I suspect that the hive is not viewing this as a swarming opportunity.

I suspect that in my case, the laying worker developed or was developing as the queens were still in their capped cells.  As such, I would suspect that in your case, the hive would raise and care for grafted queen cells appropriately.  If you do accomplish a graft, I would be fascinated to learn the results.  Best of luck!

Offline don2

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2015, 09:46:13 pm »
Stumped. d2

Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2015, 09:48:47 pm »
In my nucs, one had a fresh frame of brood put in last week so I hoped it would raise the grafts. The other was laying worker longer. Sadly, when I checked today, both nucs have licked the cells clean. I lost faith that they can be helped, so I shook one out, and will do the other tomorrow. I'll refill both with new stock and grafts this weekend.
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Offline CaseyT

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2015, 10:40:02 pm »
It would be interesting to see what may happen if you put a capped queen cell into the nuc.  But then, I suppose, that essentially gets you to where I am.  I'll keep you posted on my outcome.

Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2015, 11:47:29 pm »
I've read a laying worker hive will think it is queenright and will tear down cells and ball queens added. Where I'm stumped is that laying workers seem to attempt to build emergency cells (which won't work since they are all drones), yet won't easily take grafts, cells, or new queen.  I've  also read that most hives will have a few laying worker all the time, but low number kept in check by other workers and queen... Much higher count in a laying worker hive.  CaseyT, I suspect you spotted an oddball and that once you're virgin's mated and laying you'll be fine.  I hope to have my observation hive made before June.
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Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2015, 08:17:07 am »
>Where I'm stumped is that laying workers seem to attempt to build emergency cells (which won't work since they are all drones), yet won't easily take grafts, cells, or new queen. 

This is a matter of timing.  Early in the laying worker digression they will start queen cells.  At that point you could give them a frame of brood and they will start queen cells.  You can even introduce a queen and they will accept her.  It's only later in the process that there are enough laying workers generating enough small amounts of queen pheromones that they accumulate enough to think they are queenright.  At this point they will neither start queen cells, nor accept a queen.  Only when you have suppressed enough of those laying workers with open brood will they start to be open to making a queen or accepting a queen.
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Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2015, 12:17:54 pm »
These nucs have been queenless going on 6 weeks now and have been laying long enough that drones are nearly emerging (purple eye).  I've noticed in the past two weeks that they've drawn cells off the bottom and face of the comb into emergency cells several times (about 8-10 cells total), then about 2-3 days into that process they pull the larvae and tear the cell down.  Is this disagreement among the workers and the layers?  Maybe the cells are started by workers drifting from another hive that are not yet in agreement with the slight hint of pheremones?

On the same topic...  as the workers lay, wouldn't their own brood give off pheremone that would suppress their own drive to lay...  maybe in cycles?  This might allow a brief window when things quiet down and they start emergency cells, only to be thwarted by the layers picking back up.
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Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2015, 01:09:59 pm »
As soon as the bees determine that it is not a viable female they remove it.
Drones larvae do not suppress laying workers. Only worker bee larvae do that.
Jim
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Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2015, 01:28:31 pm »
Any idea what happens to grafted cells then, as these would be viable for queening?  Do the layers assasinate them, or do the other workers perceive no need and remove them for resource conservation?  As I see QCs built out in queenright hives through completio, I don't see why a LW colony would treat them any different...  though in queenright hives, I'd imagine they only allow this for swarm or supercedure, not just whenever they feel like it.  In a LW colony though, shouldn't the non-laying workers be irritated by the failing 'queens' due to the 100% drones and WANT to supercede them in any way possible (such as taking a graft)?  This certainly didn't work out for me (tried only once), but I don't see why not.
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Offline don2

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2015, 06:24:01 pm »
May be the laying workers are putting just enough queen cent to tell them they are queen right. d2

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2015, 01:08:32 pm »
>On the same topic...  as the workers lay, wouldn't their own brood give off pheremone that would suppress their own drive to lay...  maybe in cycles? 

Like Jim said... worker brood is what is needed.

>May be the laying workers are putting just enough queen cent to tell them they are queen right.

Once there are enough of them...
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Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2015, 02:02:21 pm »
  Just an update on this.  After failing to produce queens, my mating nucs wouldn't get back in gear (in short time), so I shook them out.  After a few days I pulled brood frames from a swarmy hive to rebuild 4x 2-frame nucs.  I left them for a few hours until they started to roar, then grafted cells.  My previous attempt at grafting was only about 40% accepted (though all were lost due to a mis-step of mine after).  This attempt was 75% accepted (6 of 8).  I consider this amazing considering the conditions!

  I have a habit of making things harder than they need to be.  I had a schedule set out and decided I needed the grafts in Sat or Sun this past weekend.  The forecast for Sat was spotty showers, and Sun was full day rain and storms.  I decided then I HAD to do things Sat.  I pulled the brood frames in the morning (around 10am) during a light mist.  The bees were flying and didn't seem to mind.  The hives are under tree cover, so they weren't really getting hit from this. The day cleared up a while and after lunch, I pulled my donor frame and grafted cells.  I cut strips of pollen patty for the nucs and prepped syrup w/ HBH to keep them going strong as they build out the QCs.  Just as I started to place the cells into each nuc it began to rain a bit.  I leaned over the nuc to keep them from the direct rain, though they were still taking on water.  By the third nuc it went into a full downpour!  I knew I had to get these closed up, but also didn't want to toss the new grafts, so I rushed to drop the cells between top bars so I could just go.  They got more water in them than I'd like in the process, and the patties were starting to melt in the rain.  Disaster!  Sunday provved the weather man to be wrong by being warm and sunny, a good flying day.  I pulled open the nucs to see just how bad it was.  The cells were being tended to and drawn out, even those sitting across top bars.  I carefully pressed each good cell (6 of 8) into a depressing in each frame.  The bees were enjoying the softer patties and eating them at a pace I've never seen before.  This may be a new technique for me (moistened patties, not grafting in the rain!)  I was glad to see there were only a couple dead bees in the nucs, not handfuls as I had feared.

  I hope I never have such an experience again, but it did show me that while sensitive, the grafting process is far more tolerant than I had ever understood from any book or forum post!  For anyone that hasn't tried it, it's not that scary.  :)  Also worth mentioning, I have a chinese grafting tool that works so-so for me, but I've found better luck using a paperclip with the end flattened and slightly curved.  I now use the chinese tool occasionally to gently push larvae off the clip, though usually this is not necessary.  Also, any time I find queen cells I remove them and collect the jelly, putting it in a glob in a bottle cap which goes into the freezer.  When grafting, I let one of these warm, and moved a small amount to each JZBZ cell cup prior to grafting, not so much to cover the bottow, but around 60-75% covered, and deep enough that the flattened paperclip could dip into it a bit.  While grafting, this allowed the larvae to easily 'float' off the tool.  I suspect though that my failures might be due to sticking on the tool, causing them to dip too deep in the jelly.

  For those that graft a lot, I've always ready to use just the tiniest minimum in the bottom of the cup.  In my experience, this was not the case.  Since using jelly, wouldn't it give them a head start to feeding the cell?  Also, might it be possible to go even further, filling the cup half way or more, giving the larvae all the food it needs, with the bees only needing to cap the cells?
Pleasant words are as a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
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Offline CaseyT

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2015, 09:58:31 pm »
Just an update on my situation.

The weather actually broke last week and it appears that the queen was able to fly on Thursday, as the bees began responding to her more and more throughout the afternoon/evening as they do to a mated queen.  Due to frame coverage in the observation hive, I am unable to see egg pattern in the cells, however, I did witness the queen laying last night.  So I consider it a successful mating flight as we are well within two weeks of her emerging.

The same worker is still in the hive and still appears to be eliciting a queen response from surrounding workers.  I have been unable to witness her actually laying recently, but I suspect that she still is.  Interestingly, her abdomen appears distended and certainly elongated.  However, if I didn't know what she was, it would look very similar to a bee engorged with honey.  She appears to not do any work within the hive as I only ever see her sitting around placidly, or conducting rapid and erratic movements throughout the hive.  I believe the rapid and erratic movement is when she is preparing to lay an egg, and I would almost wonder if she begins experiencing pain as the egg is ready to lay.  She appears to begin by inspecting cells at random and then finally, it seems almost in panic, she lays an egg.  This might explain why laying workers have such a poor egg pattern, often with several eggs in a cell.

Since it appears, at least for the time being, that the queen and worker are continuing to lay side by side, this brings up another question for me.  Since laying workers do not seem to be concerned with multiple eggs in a cell, I can guess that there would occur the circumstance where the queen might lay an egg in the bottom of a clean cell and then the worker(s) might lay additional egg(s) in the cell.  Are the bees then able to distinguish which eggs are worker brood and which eggs are drone brood, and cull the eggs appropriately?  Perhaps if they do cull the eggs appropriately, it is also possible that it is merely by chance due to the fact that the queen will generally lay on the bottom of the cell while the worker can't always reach to the bottom, so the drone eggs (by default) might be the ones culled just because they are the first ones reached by the nursery workers.

Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2015, 11:13:17 pm »
Regarding the worker laying in and fouling up a cell the queen already laid in, I've wondered the same.

I'm jealous and hope to get my observation hive done soon so I can get it populated, hopefully well before summer dearth .
Pleasant words are as a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
-Proverbs 16:24

Offline CaseyT

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #15 on: May 21, 2015, 11:17:35 pm »
Last night, I watched both the worker and the queen laying.  The queen seems to be ramping up and laying in a fairly tight pattern.  It's pretty hard to quantify, but it's possible that the other bees were not responding quite as much as previously with the laying worker.  I still can't visualize inside the cells due to coverage of the frame by the bees.

Offline drjeseuss

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2015, 12:10:17 am »
I've managed to stay out of my grafts so far. Today I looked in on a few without touching the QC frame at all and being very gentle otherwise. The cells are well drawn and capped (yesterday I believe), with a full cup of jelly visible at the top. If they all made it to this stage I'll have 6 ready to emerge Thursday.

 I made sure each frame only got one cell each. They are all in 2-frame compartments of a queen castle. Wednesday the cells should be safe to handle a bit. Hating to see any go to waste, I've considered splitting the compartments that have 2 cells on Wednesday. Would this be spreading them too thin? I've considered I could pull emerging brood from another hive to boost each new split, though I also don't want to overtax my donor.  My goal this year is increase so I want to keep every queen I can. Would cutting them back to one frame weaken them to much to make it, even with feeding? If their mother is any indicator I think they'll lay like mad this year, but I worry about the time until that pays off. I don't want to lose them to robbing during  summer dearth. Any suggestions to get the most from what I have?
Pleasant words are as a honeycomb, sweet to the soul, and health to the bones.
-Proverbs 16:24

Offline capt44

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2015, 11:19:53 pm »
If you seen the worker laying pinch her head.
That will end the problem and the queen can go on laying.
There is a process to go thru to get rid of a laying worker.
Richard Vardaman (capt44)

Offline CaseyT

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 01:26:38 pm »
Capt, I am allowing the situation to play out as I'm curious as to the natural outcome in this case.  The queen appears to be laying a strong, tight pattern, so I don't see the laying worker as a threat at this point.  But if it actually comes down to it, I can find her and destroy her if I need to.

In any event, I did see the worker on Friday night still getting queen-like attention.  I also briefly saw a cell getting capped with a drone cap.  It doesn't surprise me that the first cap I see is drone, as the laying worker appeared to be active possibly even before the queen emerged.  I'm anxious to see how much of the open brood eventually drone caps vs. worker caps.

Offline BeeMaster2

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Re: Grafting to a laying worker nuc
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 11:06:27 pm »
Capt,
Most hive that go queenless and end up with laying workers have numerous laying workers. Not just one. I do not think it would do much good to remove just one.
Jim
Democracy is 2 wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb contesting the vote.
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