adding supers

[ccwonka]

Okay, I know the standard answer here is when 7 frames in the last box are filled . . . BUT-

I have five hives now, and I have followed the above rule.  What invariably happens is that they do not begin drawing out the new supper, even when the bottom ones are filled 8 frames . . . they move into the new boxes and climb all over the wax strips (I alternate 1.5" wax starter strips and 'almost' full sheets as guides).  But they never seem to start producing, even though there is plentiful activity. And even worse, when I add the new super, the SHB moves in in force.

My current plan is to start doing a ground drench under the hives and to put out the roach motels outside the hives on the hive stands to try to cut back the SHB infestations . . . I have used the Beetle Eaters and they seem to be only marginaly effective.

Should I start feeding syrup again just to get them to draw out the comb?  I hate to be giving them sugar water this late in the season, as I was expecting (at least hoping) to get some honey off the hives this year?

Any and all opinions on this are helpful!  Thanx guys!

[bee-nuts]

You must have honey on the outsides of brood nest or are you worried about sugar water in them.  If you think the honey on outside frames is not sugar water, take them and then feed sugar water.  Then you will have honey and more drawn comb and so will the bees.  Win win situation.  You can also start moving honey up and putting empty frames in middle of brood nest.  Bees will work on frames of foundation if its next to stores or brood unless there is no flow.  I have not used foundation-less frames before so I can tell you how they will react to them.  Bees built wax from top down and from side to side in nature.  Maybe this is why they are reluctant to go up and start drawing comb.

Cant help with the shb.  Have never have one!  Yet.

[Joelel]

Okay, I know the standard answer here is when 7 frames in the last box are filled . . . BUT-

I have five hives now, and I have followed the above rule.  What invariably happens is that they do not begin drawing out the new supper, even when the bottom ones are filled 8 frames . . . they move into the new boxes and climb all over the wax strips (I alternate 1.5" wax starter strips and 'almost' full sheets as guides).  But they never seem to start producing, even though there is plentiful activity. And even worse, when I add the new super, the SHB moves in in force.

My current plan is to start doing a ground drench under the hives and to put out the roach motels outside the hives on the hive stands to try to cut back the SHB infestations . . . I have used the Beetle Eaters and they seem to be only marginaly effective.

Should I start feeding syrup again just to get them to draw out the comb?  I hate to be giving them sugar water this late in the season, as I was expecting (at least hoping) to get some honey off the hives this year?

Any and all opinions on this are helpful!  Thanx guys!

They will start on the new supper when they need to. Maybe the honey flow is slow. To keep beetles out,make the entrance smaller,just leave it big enough you don't get traffic jams.The guards will keep the beetles out if the entrance is not to big for them to guard.Don't use top entrances,they don't guard them very well. When you remove your covers always put them back the same and never remove the wax the bees sealed the cracks with. Push down on the covers to seal the cracks back as good as possable. The bees know how to build their house (hive) to keep wax moth and beetles out.Don't leave it messed up on them. Don't feed them if they have honey and bread and be sure there is clean water around,we water our bees in feeders.

[Brian D. Bray]

Bees only build comb under foot so if there is more space then bees the space goes wanting for comb until the hive builds up enough to crowd onto the additional frame, then they'll start drawing comb again.  Comb drawing is more dependent on bee population than honey flow.  If you have a honey flow and not enough bees they bees will backfill the brood chamber rather than build new comb.  The way to cure that is to leapfrog the outside storage frames away from the brood area to force the bees to build comb.  Honey stores do not require constant attendence so the bees will move off of them onto the empty frames to keep the cluster together.  With the storage frames on the outside of the empty frame they will usually draw brood comb in the 1st 2 boxes in the cluster area, but if they need drones they will draw drone comb wherever they feel like it, but drone comb makes good storage comb so put it on the outsides of a new super.

[SlickMick]

If the shb is moving into the empty supers in force as you say you are looking at a problem in the near future with larva. Ground drenching will not solve the problem.

Take the supers off, freeze the frames to kill any shb and their eggs and add them back only when the bees need the extra space even if it is adding only 1 or 2 frames at a time. The beetle is moving in because it can, there is no harrassment from the bees and there is plenty of time to lay. There are no bees to defend the extra room and you are asking for trouble by leaving the supers there. You need bees to cover the entire frame

Mick

[Joelel]

If you have an infestation of beetles,you need to get them out of the brood boxes also.You need to remove the suppers and freeze them and treat the brood boxes or put beetle traps in until they are gone.

[mswartfager]

Brian Bray....

If you have a honey flow and not enough bees they bees will backfill the brood chamber rather than build new comb.  The way to cure that is to leapfrog the outside storage frames away from the brood area to force the bees to build comb.

Can you explain that again....?

...Mark Swartfager

[Brian D. Bray]

Brian Bray....

If you have a honey flow and not enough bees they bees will backfill the brood chamber rather than build new comb.  The way to cure that is to leapfrog the outside storage frames away from the brood area to force the bees to build comb.

Can you explain that again....?

...Mark Swartfager

I'll try to clear the muddy waters.

1st bees only build comb under foot so if there are not enough bees to occupy all the frames in a box they will only draw comb on the frames they are congregating on.  Once the comb building has caught up to the number of bees, so all bees are standing on comb, they will stop building comb and begin to backfill the already drawn comb not occupied by brood.  They will will also backfill the cells as the brood hatches if they can beat the queen to the cell with nectar.  
Once the population of the hive has risen to the point that bees are crowed off the comb frames onto new frames they will again begin to build comb on the additional frames now accupied by the bees.

Almost always, the outside frames on each side of the box are honey storage frames while the rest of the frames might be used for brood rearing in the boxes that comprise the brood chamber.

Now for leapfrogging the frames:  Let's say that you have 6 frames of bees, on comb, and 4 empty frames, 2 on each side of the drawn frames next to the box's walls.  Of the 6 frames of drawn comb the outside drawn frame on each side of the core or cluster is honey stores, or at least the outer side of the comb is, the inner side might contain brood, but that is really immaterial to out discussion.  The important point is that by moving the storage frames the drawn, often capped frame of comb, is moved away from the core or cluster and an empty frame is inserted.  The bees will then move off the storage frames, as stored honey needs no attendence, and will occupy the empty frames.  This will then cause the bees to draw comb on the new empty frames they've been forced to occupy.

To illustrate our discussion, a hive that has empty (E) and occupied (0) frames thusly;  E E 0 0 0 0 0 0 E E will be changed to look like this; E 0 E 0 0 0 0 E 0 E and will begin to look like this within a day or 2: E S O O O O O O S E where (S) represents the vacated honey storage frames.

I hope this explanation is more comprehensive.

[lakeman]

I am a newby, but when I put my first super on for comb honey, I replaced one frame with a drawn frame from the brood super, and then when they started drawing, I went back in and reversed them putting the brood frame back down, and the new one in. Then when I decided I better get another super on top, I changed one of the new frames in it with a partially drawn frame from the 1st honey super, Then the next time I checked the hive, bees were all through all parts of the hive. Then when they were actively drawing comb, and putting up honey, I put a queen excluder below my supers for comb honey. I did this, after telling my mentors in our local beekeepers association they were not drawing out the new frames, and they informed me they need a little push to get started. Once they got started, my top supers are always full of workers when I go in.