Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: wtiger on November 05, 2007, 12:38:01 am
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I was just wondering what different peoples favorite method was and why. I have tried several a basic sifter, a screed and a brush, carefully bumping between frames, the baby powder container hand poof method and I also tried using a new/never used rose duster, but the volume was just too low to be effective. My personal favorite is like the baby powder container method on crack. I use clean bay powder container with a small hole drilled in the back end connected to an air nosle and and an 11 gallon compressed air tank. I can set it up and go out and treat 2 colonies with a fine cloud of powdered sugar in less than 5 minutes. The only real drawback I've found is that there is a little excess dust in the form a white cloud that coats everything it touches with a thin coat of very fine sugar although not enough sticks around to cause a major problem with pests. The 2 best things I've found is that it is very fast and I know for certain that every square inch of the inside of the hive and everything in it is throughly coated in a thin layer of fine sugar dust. Oh and another problem I just thought of is that you have to be careful of over pressurizing the baby powder container. Otherwise the top blows off and several cups of powdered sugar is instantly turned into a very large choking cloud and the cap can be difficult to relocate. Just imagine a guy in a bee suit stumbling out of a large white cloud, coughing, and searching frantically in the grass for little white cap and you can imagine how my first experiment with my contraption turned out. I just had to learn how to throttle my air pressure a bit better.
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A cup of powdered sugar for each deep, sprinkled on top of second box and brushed in between the frames.
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wtiger. I did some powdered sugar treatments this late spring. I initially used a flour sifter and that took too long, so basically what I did was just took handfuls of powdered sugar (my hands are quite small) and put it on the top bars and brushed it down over the bees. I had read somewhere that it should be like an avalanche going over the bees. That is what it looked liked and I know it did quite a lot of good with reducing mite counts, that weren't even high to begin with. I did three treatments 5 days apart. At the end of the season I did a 3 day sticky board count, just to see how the mite levels were, just for my own personal information. The counts were so low that I felt that I didn't need to do an early fall treatment.
I have inserted sticky boards (just for fun and my own information) on Saturday that I am removing today to see what the mite levels are at this late stage of the game. This is simply information gathering, some say it is a waste of time to count mites, but I find nothing with the bees a waster of time. It is information gathering and knowledge of what is going on in the hive during certain parts of the year.
I will post my results of the mite count in the next few days. I have 9 colonies that are being checked. It is quite cool out, they are mostly in the winter cluster, except for yesterday, it was beautiful and warm and man did the bees have a field day, flying around. I didn't see any pollen coming in, but then I didn't watch them all day either. I was too busy building my new raised bed for my garlic and throwing more rocks to add to my great rock pile, :roll: ;) :) Have a wonderful day, in this great life of ours. Cindi
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Cindi,
Since you are up in Canada, how are your temps so far. What temperature do you still work your hives? Thanks
Dennis
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I do not want to criticize, but I thought it wasn't a good idea to get all that sugar all over the place?? Could start a robbing situation. Well if it works for you then I guess it is fine. I am always careful not to get too much sugar all over the place.
I have used my flour sifter and a bee brush after to brush the sugar down between the frames. I have used about 1 cup per super and I usually start from the very bottom and work my way up to the top. It is very hard on me to always move the heavy supers off the hive, but the results have been really good with the mite counts.
I do this once a week for as many weeks as it takes to get the counts down. Now, I am only doing the dusting from the top supers as the cooler weather approaches and I do not want to break the seals on the supers.
Good luck
Annette
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Oh no, Annette, I think that I should have elaborated a little further on my sugar dusting. I forgot one very important part. When I did the powdered shakes, I had replaced the solid bottomboards with screened bottomboards. Of course, I did definitely not want all that sugar around so I placed sheets of newspaper beneath each colony and gathered up all the remains that fell onto it.
I am not sure that powdered sugar would start a robbing situation, such as would be if a lot of sugar syrup spilled. I don't think that powdered sugar would be overly appealing to bees, honestly. I think that they are more anxious to obtain a liquid in their honey stomach, like nectar or sugar syrup, not dry sugar. I think that that would be fairly hard to collect. I am pretty sure about what I am saying here. But just speaking out loud, I could be wrong for sure.
One point that you spoke about Annette, was you said you work from the bottom up. Obviously you are removing the second brood chamber and then putting it back, right? If you have honey supers on, I don't think that you should sugar shake, but then again I am not too sure about that either, again, just thinking out loud.
When I did the sugar dusting, I did not do the chambers separately, I simply left the two brood chambers in place and dusted from the top. I am pretty positive that the amount of sugar floated all down and covered the bees in the bottom box too. Did you hear somewhere that you need to do each box separately, maybe I missed something and am doing it wrong myself. Living, learning, eh, girl?
Dennis, I am in the southwestern corner of Canada, near a place called Vancouver, I am about 45 km from the ocean. We have pretty mild temperatures in the wintertime. We have experienced some fairly hard frosts for the past two weeks when the skies are clear. But living in a rainy climate, the weather usually remains above the freezing point. We on occasion get some snow that may last for a few days to a couple of weeks, the latter is infrequently. January will tend to be our coldest month. We can get a couple of weeks of deep freezing, no snow, because when it freezes here the skies will certainly be clear. We can have freezing ground to a depth of about 8 inches, never ever deeper than that. Now and then the small lakes in our areas will freeze over, but again that is unusual. We are rainy and cool.
I am not working with the bees any more, there is no need to. They have been fed plenty for winter stores and I feel their hives are very heavy. The bees will still come out in great numbers. For example the past couple of days the weather has been very warm, when the sun is shining. I don't know the temperature that has been during these warm days, but I have worked outside with a T-shirt for a couple of hours when the sun was higher on the horizon, but when the sun waned, the coat came back on. Cold. Today is rainy. The temperature currently is: 8 C ( 46 F). We begin to feed pollen around the middle of February for brood stimulation. Is this the kind of answer that you needed to have? Have a wonderful day, beautiful life, loving this life we live. Cindi
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Cindi,
I was referring to wtiger about all the powdered sugar going everywhere, not you. But you have enlightened me about the powdered sugar perhaps not being a problem if it goes all around. I do know that it attracts many ants though, but they do not bother the hives.
I remove all the supers and start from the bottom, because that is what I was told would be the best way to get at all the mites. But it was a very hard summer for me having to remove all those supers and I think that for now on, I will just do the second brood box as you mentioned, and let it trickle on down. I do not do the honey supers that are for me. I remove them first, then do the dusting. But the honey super for the bees, I do powdered sugar dust them also.
Thank you for your reply. I am also learning every day and am open to everything.
Sincerely,
Annette
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I think that powered sugar is not recommend in Europa. It is vain job in varroa control. It is more beekeepers therapy than real control.
Europa is at least 5-7 years ahead USA and Canada, and somehow USA want's do same researches as Europa 5 years ago.
But if powered sugar makes beekeeper sleep better, it is value too. But mostly in this Forum varroa control systems do not stand European skill level - Sorry. I think that this forum do not learn new in varroa issue.
Sad to say that.........sugar system is only a toy....
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The sugar all over the place was only really an issue that one time the cap blew off. I had yellow jackets and ants all over. Otherwise there isn't enough that settles around the hives to make a difference.
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Sad to say that.........sugar system is only a toy....
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Too funny Finsky! :-D :-D
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Enlighten me Finsky... of the great European socialist way to control Varroa.
I really want an answer from you.
Bill from NJ
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bill from NJ
Read over this topic a little on oxalic acid
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=11708.0
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Billl from NJ. Ensure that you do read that post that Robo put in his post for sure. It is important to be informed and understand about what we are using for our bees. The varroa mite hazzard is real, it will terminate colonies eventually, if the bees have the mites. To do nothing is wrong. (there is considerable evidence that small cell works for some beekeepers in some areas with the varroa destructor mite, that is talked about all over this forum). It is our job as tentative great beekeepers to look after our girls, for sake of the pollination that they do that provides food for human beings, the byproducts of the hives that us as humans (and animals too actually, bee pollen is fed to livestock, hee, hee) love and enjoy. Have a wonderful and beautiful day, greatest of health. Cindi
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Thank you for the opportunity to allow me to see how some people here really are.
It doesn't take long to see their true colors.
Regards,
Bill from NJ
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Enlighten me Finsky... of the great European socialist way to control Varroa.
European countries have carefully went through varroa control methods. They are tens. If we take all sosialist Russian methods into use, they are maybe 50.
By the aid of European Union, some countries co-operated and sieved best and safest methods some years ago.
One key person has been professor nanetti from Italy.
Our forum master Seppo is a member of that varroa group. He is whole day beekeeping researcher in Finland and has a lot of hives. He has studied beekeeping in Los Angeles University.
I have collected best reports in this forum http://bees.freesuperhost.com/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?board=english
I am that nick name jiihoo
If I have insulted 300 million American people collectively, I have had a good reason :-P
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awhhh, come on finsky. you know you love us. :evil:
i used powdered sugar this year consistently. i had very few mites by the time i did the apiguard treatment in the fall. i'm not sure that the PS was really needed this year because i had all hives queenless at one time or another. bad year.
the PS treatment makes sense in that it stimulates the grooming behavior. as a stand alone treatment for mite control, i doubt it is enough for most of us. i look at it as a way to keep numbers down until fall treatments that really kill the suckers.
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i used powdered sugar this year consistently.
I handle varroa only once a year , trickling them next weekend. They are not worth further attention.
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OA is not approved for use here yet. maybe when it is, we can all go for once a year and forget the rest :-)
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Until it's approved we can bleach the wooden frames! ;)
As was said before ,powdered sugar isn't approved for that either,nor is mineral oil fogging or oxalic vapors!
Like Finsky said, drivibg over posted speed is also not legal. For the record I am not advocating breaking the law. we need to band together to get oxalic approved!!
Sorry, this topic is for favorite method for PS.
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As was said before ,powdered sugar isn't approved for that either,nor is mineral oil fogging or oxalic vapors!
true, but both PS and mineral oil are approved for ingestion. OA is not. if i sell my honey i will not get busted for having sold out of a powdered sugar dusted hive. OA? that's another story.
as for aproval...yes, that would be good. you'd think they'd be hot on that.
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As was said before ,powdered sugar isn't approved for that either,nor is mineral oil fogging or oxalic vapors!
true, but both PS and mineral oil are approved for ingestion. OA is not. if i sell my honey i will not get busted for having sold out of a powdered sugar dusted hive. OA? that's another story.
as for aproval...yes, that would be good. you'd think they'd be hot on that.
There are at least 20 approved good methods in varroa control. Why you have shoosed the most laborous?
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If oxalic is applied when the bees are in winter cluster,there is no residual to get ingested by eating the honey from these hives.Otherwise the US would not be able to import Canadian honey to sell in the supermarkets.
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There are at least 20 approved good methods in varroa control. Why you have shoosed the most laborous?
Perhaps because it's the least toxic? Maybe because she wants to? Why are you belaboring the point? If someone wants to do something that's been shown to work why is it such a problem for you?
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As was said before ,powdered sugar isn't approved for that either,nor is mineral oil fogging or oxalic vapors!
true, but both PS and mineral oil are approved for ingestion. OA is not. if i sell my honey i will not get busted for having sold out of a powdered sugar dusted hive. OA? that's another story.
as for aproval...yes, that would be good. you'd think they'd be hot on that.
Natural honey has oxalic acid in it. Research has shown that treating with oxalic acid does not adversely affect the amount of oxalic acid in honey.
http://www.apimondia.org/apiacta/slovenia/en/nanetti.pdf
Marion Ellis is working on a 2 year study with oxalic acid
http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm
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If someone wants to do something that's been shown to work why is it such a problem for you?
Everyone here seems to be adult. Every one makes just what he wants. But why he gather support their makings with "disinformation". And why they doom others doings? - Nonchemical beekeeping. I think that many have passed his chemistry lessons in shool.
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Marion Ellis is working on a 2 year study with oxalic acid
http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm
In Europa researches have worked 10 years with the issue and they have revield out questions. And that stuff seems to be extremely good in beekeeping.
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Marion Ellis is working on a 2 year study with oxalic acid
http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm
In Europa researches have worked 10 years with the issue and they have revield out questions. And that stuff seems to be extremely good in beekeeping.
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Yes, but the USA is not going to approve it for use based upon European research. My response was to the question of it becoming approved in the US, and not how effect it is. I think those that bleach their frames know its effectiveness.
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Everyone here seems to be adult. Every one makes just what he wants. But why he gather support their makings with "disinformation". And why they doom others doings? - Nonchemical beekeeping. I think that many have passed his chemistry lessons in shool.
finsky, you know i'm not one to jump on the "organic" band wagon. most of the things that people are doing are either unproven, or proven to be ineffective. however, the powdered sugar, as a mid-season way of knocking down mite numbers makes sense. for those of us who have been using it, and in the few limited studies i have seen, it seems to work to keep mite numbers down. anything that stimulates grooming, by default reduces mite numbers.
even i have a longer season than you do, but chemical treatment in the spring would not be practical. i have to wait until fall if i want maximum honey production. if i do that, i may have such a high mite count as to put my hives at risk. by using the powdered sugar early and often, i can keep mite numbers down and not lose time for honey collection to chemical mite treatment.
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however, the powdered sugar, as a mid-season way of knocking down mite numbers makes sense. for those of us who have been using it, and in the few limited studies i have seen, it seems to work to keep mite numbers down. anything that stimulates grooming, by default reduces mite numbers.
I have not looked for any studies on powdered sugar as it is too labor intensive to be viable to me. But I'm wondering have you seen any research that shows the cornstarch, wheat flour, or calcium phosphate added to prevent caking does not cause respiratory or other harm to the bees over the long run? Especially when dowsing then every 2 weeks.
Thanks
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I think Finskies objective is kill the mites when they are not hidden in sealed brood.That is what makes oxalic more effective.Sugar shakes only knock mites off of emerged bees while the population continues to grow under the capped brood.
Kinda like killing dandelions with a lawn mower,you knock the top off but it returns over and over again.
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that's it buzbee. just knocking them back until the kill :-). thing is, you can't go for the kill and the honey at the same time.
robo, i do not find the PS to be very labor intensive. just takes a few seconds per hive. as for the other thing, i'd not worry about it i guess. bees don't live very long anyway, so if they breath some stuff in i can't see that it's to big a deal.
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that's it buzbee. just knocking them back until the kill :-). thing is, you can't go for the kill and the honey at the same time.
robo, i do not find the PS to be very labor intensive. just takes a few seconds per hive. as for the other thing, i'd not worry about it i guess. bees don't live very long anyway, so if they breath some stuff in i can't see that it's to big a deal.
What's labor intensive about applying powdered sugar? I put on the shim with door screen tacked to one side, shake in the sugar, run a bee brush over it and go to the next hive. Besides, I'm not interested in killing the mites; I want to give the bees a chance to become resistant by aiding them with limiting the mite population to some degree while the resistance is developed, then I won't have to worry about the mites. IMHO, killing the mites with whatever chemical of choice is more stress for the bees that is detrimental in both the short and long term. Allowing them to develop a resistance might be detrimental in the short term but is probably the best solution in the long run.
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What's labor intensive about applying powdered sugar? I put on the shim with door screen tacked to one side, shake in the sugar, run a bee brush over it and go to the next hive. Besides, I'm not interested in killing the mites; I want to give the bees a chance to become resistant by aiding them with limiting the mite population to some degree while the resistance is developed, then I won't have to worry about the mites. IMHO, killing the mites with whatever chemical of choice is more stress for the bees that is detrimental in both the short and long term. Allowing them to develop a resistance might be detrimental in the short term but is probably the best solution in the long run.
Brian,
Do you just dust the top super?? I have been dusting all the supers and this has been very, very hard on me having to lift those heavy boxes. Is it enough to just dust the top super??
Annette
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Annette, oh, oh. I think that you have been doing too much work, honestly. I think that dumping the icing sugar on the top of even the second super is just fine. That is what I did and I know that it did help to knock of quite a few mites. I really don't think that you had to take the supers apart, oh dear........I now worry that you have gone too deep into the supers unnecessarily. Wait for responses. But I honestly don't think you needed to take apart the boxes. The powdered sugar goes EVERYWHERE!!!!! Have a wonderful and beautiful day. Cindi
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as for the other thing, i'd not worry about it i guess. bees don't live very long anyway, so if they breath some stuff in i can't see that it's to big a deal.
I guess that's an OK approach as long as you aren't the queen :-\ It seems there was a lot of people having issues with queen supercedure this past summer. I'm not try to insinuate that powdered sugar had anything to do with it, but until there is actual scientific research on the subject, it is a possibility. It wouldn't be the first time that something that was thought to be harmless wasn't :?
I want to give the bees a chance to become resistant by aiding them with limiting the mite population to some degree while the resistance is developed, then I won't have to worry about the mites. IMHO, killing the mites with whatever chemical of choice is more stress for the bees that is detrimental in both the short and long term. Allowing them to develop a resistance might be detrimental in the short term but is probably the best solution in the long run.
I'm not sure I follow this. How does limiting the mite population make them resistant? Any colony will survive and co-exist with a limited number of mites. Or are you developing resistance in some other manner? I assume you would get the same aiding whether you are knocking down the mite count with powdered sugar once a month or knocking the count down with oxalic acid once a year?
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To be honest, I actually felt that I caused the supercedure in one of my hives due to annoying them so much.
Annette
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robo, for what it's worth, i had my queen problems before i did any powdered sugar treatments. i had no problems after. we'll see how we come through winter.
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I'm not sure I follow this. How does limiting the mite population make them resistant? Any colony will survive and co-exist with a limited number of mites. Or are you developing resistance in some other manner? I assume you would get the same aiding whether you are knocking down the mite count with powdered sugar once a month or knocking the count down with oxalic acid once a year?
The theory I opperate under is that an overload of mites can kill the hive early on, but my limiting the population of the mites through the use of sugar shakes the bees have time to develop hygenic behaviors that will, in effect, make them resistant. Anamok Effendi?
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The theory I opperate under is that an overload of mites can kill the hive early on, but my limiting the population of the mites through the use of sugar shakes the bees have time to develop hygenic behaviors that will, in effect, make them resistant. Anamok Effendi?
I understand the theory, but the question I still have is what are you doing that causes them to develop a hygienic behavior? I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control, the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits.
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my favorite way is to get a old flour sifter and put powered sugar in it and shake it over hot roles or cakes and sometimes cupcakes :-D, I have never done it on bee's, how they taste :? ;)
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I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control, the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits.
Gradually less sugar shakes to increase mite load and observation for hygenic behavior. Give them what they can handle, them make them handle more.
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The theory I opperate under is that an overload of mites can kill the hive early on, but my limiting the population of the mites through the use of sugar shakes the bees have time to develop hygenic behaviors that will, in effect, make them resistant. Anamok Effendi?
Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.
What is your valuation how much bees need to develop behaviour? - I have seen none breeding program where sugar is the tool in bee breeding. Best tool is the instrument insemination and selecting queen and drone strains. They do this in every country but where are results. It is really difficult and SLOW. Very few makes success on this field.
And mite develops itself too......
Here is a research 2006. It says that presence of hygienic bees in colony does not help nonhygienic bees to clean comps. So it develops only via genes and via queen - drone genes. So sugar will not help neither
http://www.extension.umn.edu/honeybees/components/pdfs/ArathiSpivakAnimBehav06.pdf
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Congratulations, Finskey. You have once again managed to find disagreement because you choose to misunderstand what's being said.
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I understand the theory, but the question I still have is what are you doing that causes them to develop a hygienic behavior? I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control, the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits.
Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.
I believe Brian's approach is valid, I don't think he is necessarily trying to cause hygenic behavior right away. Rather, by keeping the bees alive, giving them time to supercede a few times, genes will be mixed and eventually the right ones will be expressed. At that time, sugar dusting will no longer be needed by him or his bees. What he is doing to achieve this is keeping his bees alive, for dead bees cannot pass on any potentially good genetics that are at the moment not being expressed. He is maintaining a diverse gene pool UNTIL that happens. Of course the other approach that must be mentioned now is- Don't treat, Don't monitor mites, Don't do anything and hopefully this will select for the same hygienic behavior. Perhaps another way to put it, he is allowing the bees more time, watching for good traits BEFORE culling any that arepotentially carrying but not expressing them at this time?
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I understand the theory, but the question I still have is what are you doing that causes them to develop a hygienic behavior? I still maintain that if one keeps the mite population under control, the bees will co-exist with the mites and will not develop any resistant traits.
Hygienic behaviour is in bees' many genes. With sugar you cannot change genes or gene pool around you. Only queen breeding and strong selection in breeding makes better results and it is not very effective neither.
I believe Brian's approach is valid, I don't think he is necessarily trying to cause hygenic behavior right away. Rather, by keeping the bees alive, giving them time to supercede a few times, genes will be mixed and eventually the right ones will be expressed. At that time, sugar dusting will no longer be needed by him or his bees. What he is doing to achieve this is keeping his bees alive, for dead bees cannot pass on any potentially good genetics that are at the moment not being expressed. He is maintaining a diverse gene pool UNTIL that happens. Of course the other approach that must be mentioned now is- Don't treat, Don't monitor mites, Don't do anything and hopefully this will select for the same hygienic behavior. Perhaps another way to put it, he is allowing the bees more time, watching for good traits BEFORE culling any that arepotentially carrying but not expressing them at this time?
And the Insight award goes to....BenC.
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I hope that USA universities soon apply Brian's method.
Give time - 2 years or 50 years?
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http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm
http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/pesp/regional_grants/2001/r7-2001-final.htm
you can find their studies in more detail, just didn't want to clog minds. one of the reasons they did not recommend PS as a hive control was that the mites could return to the bees. with the advent of the screened bottom board, the mites are dislodged from bees and drop through the screen. while i would not use the powdered sugar as my only treatment, i do think it is useful mid season as a way to reduce mite infestation. the more live bees, the more work done. the fewer mites, the less chance of mite related disease.
it is inexpensive and will do little harm to brood if not applied directly to brood.
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http://www.epa.gov/pesp/regional_grants/2005/R7-2005.htm
http://www.epa.gov/oppbppd1/pesp/regional_grants/2001/r7-2001-final.htm
These things are cleared out in Europe 5-7 years ago. I do not know what USA seach. Italian Nanetti is key person in these studies.
one of the reasons they did not recommend PS as a hive control was that the mites could return to the bees.
In theory that is good idea, but in practice it has been found that it does not work in practice.
with the advent of the screened bottom board, the mites are dislodged from bees and drop through the screen.
Goo idea, but i does not work in practice. It has been revieled out many times even in Canada.
while i would not use the powdered sugar as my only treatment, i do think it is useful mid season as a way to reduce mite infestation. the more live bees, the more work done. the fewer mites, the less chance of mite related disease.
The key point is that mite level must keep so small that after summer mite population does not violate wintering bees. When last bees will over winter, all mites concentrate themselves into last brood.
If mite level is high, you take honey off and soon after that you give some vapour treatment like thymol or formic acid.
As I have written, PS is not recomended in Europe. It is laborous and ineffective method.
Kathyp, you live quite in cold climate and it is most easy to kill mites with one treatment. It takes 30 seconds per hive.
You have brood brake there and it makes it easy.
http://pix.epodunk.com/locatorMaps/or/OR_15184.gif
You may keep your mind out and take what ever system into use, but just now, open your eyes and take into use best method: trickling. - But after that you have not so much talk about mites because hey are so hard to find.
If you have open mind, it cannot mean that you are 10 years after those who has closed mind. That is not purpose 8-)
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i will probably stick to the thymol until OA is approved in the US. it is an issue i don't want to deal with if i sell honey later. the thymol seems to work well, it just takes more time than i would like.
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i will probably stick to the thymol until OA is approved in the US. it is an issue i don't want to deal with if i sell honey later. the thymol seems to work well, it just takes more time than i would like.
Thymol is very good. Many here use it only and once per year when they have got mite level low enough. You have there longer brooding season and it gives time to mites to spread. Formic acid works same way.
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So...I have a two medium box hive going into its first winter. I sugar shook threee times before wrapping them up about a month ago- i just shook it across the tops of the bars and swept what landed ontop of the frames in between.
Now, I think it may be good to use some oxalic acid early this winter. Can anyone see any problems with vaporizing or trickling at this time with a two medium hive?
I'm wondering if a) I can treat the whole hive w/ one vaporizing or trickle. and b) which method is better for given outside temps
also, Finsky ( or someone who know) what are the size of cells in your hives?
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I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.
So then you all are talking about sprinkling powdered sugar, you mean the special stuff and not store bought powdered sugar, right?
It is beginning to look like the ones who do the best financially in Beedom are those who sell the supplies!
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>I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.
Plain old powdered sugar works fine for treating for mites. If you want to feed sugar, then the finely granulated sugar works better, but it's not actually fine enough to do well on Varroa.
The "just for bees" stuff is actually just "bakers sugar".
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Been using just plain old powdered sugar from the supermarket. It has corn starch in it, but for just dusting the hives, it is fine.
Annette
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I just read in a catalog that powdered sugar sweeping is not done with powdered suger, but with a special "just for bees" powdered sugar sold by the vendors. They said that normal powdered sugar can be harmful.
So then you all are talking about sprinkling powdered sugar, you mean the special stuff and not store bought powdered sugar, right?
It is beginning to look like the ones who do the best financially in Beedom are those who sell the supplies!
For mite control you could use Talcum powder or Flour if you wanted to, Powdered sugar is used (with or without additives) because it is more bee friendly--meaning the bees can consume if powdered sugar if they add water if they want to. BTW, I am not advocating using either Talc or Flour, I've been misunderstood on that before by those who don't read very closely. The point is that any powder can act as a lubricant to make the mites fall of the bees, powdered sugar is the most bee friendly of those powders.
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For mite control you could use Talcum powder
Talc (derived from the Persian via Arabic talq) is a mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate with the chemical formula H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2.
To babies back side and to women's face, why not on bees?
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For mite control you could use Talcum powder
Talc (derived from the Persian via Arabic talq) is a mineral composed of hydrated magnesium silicate with the chemical formula H2Mg3(SiO3)4 or Mg3Si4O10(OH)2.
To babies back side and to women's face, why not on bees?
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IT will dry out and kill the LARVE -RDY-B
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I think you should drop all that stuff an just move towards small cell.This could
save you alot of time and effort.The Bees would be happier also.
kirko
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I think you should drop all that stuff an just move towards small cell.This could
save you alot of time and effort.The Bees would be happier also.
kirko
Why would the bees bee happier with small cell?----Asking myself ????Smaller cells - Smaller bees---less storage area---smaller bees = less work? :?
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Less mites healthy bees
kirk0
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I think you should drop all that stuff an just move towards small cell.This could
save you alot of time and effort.The Bees would be happier also.
kirko
Why would the bees bee happier with small cell?----Asking myself ????Smaller cells - Smaller bees---less storage area---smaller bees = less work? :?
Missed the point. The Hexigon shape of the honey comb cell is one of nature's strongest. The shorter the sides of any multiple-sided object the stronger it is. The bees will make as much comb as it take to produce brood and stores, the size of the comb is really immaterial to that. What is important is that a small cell full of a bee pupae leaves little, if any, room for varroa mites. That's why the varroa prefer drone comb, there's more room that allows them to reproduce better. Also, small cell in Apis C., from where varroa came, is smaller still, which is why the varroa is almost exclusively lilmited to the drone comb in Apis C. In Apis M., being a larger bee the mite can more easliy fit into worker sized brood cells and therefore the varroa mite population multiplies much faster. Man, in his wisdon, has created wax foundation that is larger even than what Apis M. manufactures on their own, thereby compounding the problem.
Smaller cell size is only one of the answers in a multiple answer solution to a particular problem, but, IMO, a valid one.
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I have to share this with all of you. When I went to visit one of our forum members a couple of months ago, I noticed that his bees were very small in size compared to mine. Also when he does his sticky board to count the mites, he comes up with hardly any mites. He showed me the sticky board and I could not find more than a few mites. He is a new beekeeper and this is his first year with his bees.
So I asked him to find out what size the cells are in the hive, because I just had a gut feeling that his bees are regressed in size. Today he came back to tell me, after he measured them, that they are 5.0, which would be considered small cell.
So in this case, small cell definitely means less mites. This is very encouraging news for me since this is the way I want to go to get rid of my mites. This is first hand experience of seeing it actually working.
Thought I would share this.
Annette
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>This is first hand experience of seeing it actually working.
It is reassuring seeing it work.
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I second the Motion
kirko
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Annette,
So in this case, small cell definitely means less mites.
I'm certainly hopeful/optimistic that something such as small or natural cell will be found an effective tool for mite management, but after reading your message I have to ask:
How were you able to attribute the low mite counts to the 5.0 cell size. Could other factors be responsible? If small cell is the way you want to go then I hope it works for you, I just have the impression that the statement quoted above may not be entirely accurate.
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I do not have any direct experience with small cell except for what I am reading here on this forum. I guess there could be other reasons that the mite count was so low, but what would those other reasons be??? He did not do any sort of treatment for mites this year. I guess I will follow this beekeeper and see how his mite counts are doing.
In the meantime, I am going in this direction. Experience will tell the truth.
I should have said "In this case, small cell appears to be less mites"
Thanks
Annette
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one must remember it is sometimes difficult for someone-to accurately measure cell size - if they are just starting to take notice of what is happening-wasnt that person a first year newbee? -I am not saying they cant measure accurately -I am just saying to learn correctly can be difficult -and it is important to be accurate -I also think more people should pay attention to there cell size -happy bees make for happy beekeepers 8-) RDY-B
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He is a first time beekeeper and measured using the measuring tape from the website provided by MB. I know Linda in Atlanta has also used this measuring tape.
That is all I know.
Thanks
Annette
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reasons for a low mite count? Here are a few I can think of:
1.) Incorrect sampling method
2.) small or natural cell
3.) different genetics or a different expression of same genetics (do bees have phenotypes?)
what about grooming behavior?
4.) 1st year package or nuc, mites haven't gained a foothold yet. Wait till end of next year for assesment.
5.) low mite pressure in the area
6.) swarming/supercedure (or multiple ones) that broke the brood cycle.
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Check this out ecologicalbeekeeping.com go to the library and read the small cell
stuff one guy went to the Lusby's a few years back spent three days going through Dee and Ed's beehives about a thousand more or less there is a lot of
got info there.Read it and see that there really is a alturnative to chemicals
kirko