Swarm cells...what's next?

[mwiehn]

Hi, second year beekeeper here, have one strong hive (2 deeps full of bees and brood, two supers partially filled with capped honey and foundation in various stages of being drawn out), one weeker hive (one brood box), and one newly installed 3 pound package two weeks ago (doing very well). i inspected the strong hive yesterday and saw several queen cells with larvae in them on bottom of frames in upper deep. I destroyed most of them, but am afraid they will still want to swarm. I had been hoping for a good honey harvest from that hive. I tried to stop them from getting in the swarm mood earlier in the year, seeing how strong they already were in March. I reversed brood boxes in early April, added second super in late April so they would have enough room to expand. So far most of the bee are in the two bottom deeps, they haven't really "exploded" into the two honey supers above. What are my options at this point? Split the hive equally? Find the queen and three or four frames and make a small split leaving most of the old hive intact, but get the swarming "out of their system" and hopefully leave the old hive strong enough to make some honey this year? What would you recommend?
Thanks in advance for your answers and help.
Marc

[Finsky]

Stop swarming

You get normal yield this year if you do this:

Move hive 10 beet. Put new hive with foundations in old site.  You may take least drawn foundations from your big hive.  Take queen and one frame of young larvae to new hive.

Most of bees fly to new hive  on old site. They draw soon foundations and they forget swarming. Queen continues egg laying.

Old hive is not albe to swarm. Dont brake queen cells if they have such.

Look how much new hive get bees and give another box of foundations if needed.

After a week join hive parts together if you have honey flow going.

[Finsky]

THE BIG PICTURE

one strong hive (2 deeps full of bees and brood, two supers partially filled with capped honey and foundation in various stages of being drawn out), they haven't really "exploded" into the two honey supers above.

It seems that they really want to swarms. First I thought that hive is too tight but ..

one weeker hive (one brood box),

This seems normal hive and it goes forward.

and one newly installed 3 pound package two weeks ago

To this hive I should give 2 full frames of emerging bees from another hives. It gives good kick up  to package.

When one week has gone and new queen has emerged in swarm hive I should prefer to do this:

I should kill the new swarm queen and put swarmed hive and package hive together.

You old queen has swarming habit. In proper time I should change it to new commercial queen. If you take queens from swarm hive they will probably swarm next summer.

[Michael Bush]

>I tried to stop them from getting in the swarm mood earlier in the year, seeing how strong they already were in March. I reversed brood boxes in early April, added second super in late April so they would have enough room to expand. So far most of the bee are in the two bottom deeps, they haven't really "exploded" into the two honey supers above.

Are you using an excluder?  If so that's what's stopping them.  Try removing the excluder until they are working the super and then put it back on (if you insist on an excluder or leave it off)

> What are my options at this point? Split the hive equally?

Are you seeing swarm cells?  I'd be puttin a couple of empty frames in the brood nest to keep it open and give that mass of bees something to keep them busy.

> Find the queen and three or four frames and make a small split leaving most of the old hive intact, but get the swarming "out of their system" and hopefully leave the old hive strong enough to make some honey this year? What would you recommend?

If you can leave it intact and prevent swarming you'll get more of a crop than doing a split too far before the flow.  If the flow is immenent (like in the next two weeks) you could pull all the open brood (except one frame with some eggs), most of the stores, and the old queen in one brood box and do a cut down split which will free up nurse bees to forage and keep the old hive from swarming, because it's busy rearing a queen, and the new hive from swarming, because it has no field force and get a good crop because the old hive has all the field bees and some of the nurse bees and no brood to care for.  You'll also get a brood break which will help with the Varroa.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesswarmcontrol.htm

[mwiehn]

Thanks a lot for your answers, Finsky and Michael. It took me a day to really get it (I hope...lol). Ok, here is how I understood it:
Finsky, you suggest to move the old hive, put a new one in it's place etc. I got that part. But then you said to join hive parts after a week. Do you mean to combine the old and the new hive again? If so, which queen do you kill, the old one or scrape off the new queen cells?

What confuses me is that you than suggested to combine the "swarm hive" (I guess that would be the new hive in the original spot of the old hive) with the newly installed package bees, and kills th swarm queen. I sort of understand that as well, since the queen of the package bees is young, marked and should be well mated. So which one would you combine then, the old hive with the swarm hive, or the swarm hive with the package?

Ok, and if you haven't been confused yet (I am), what happens if I just keep the strong hive split and increase my hive count by one? Would I still harvest some honey this year from the remnants of the strong hive?

LOL, OMG I confused myself now... In any case, I like your suggestion Finsky about the splitting. I think I'll give it a try. Michael Bush, your site is awesome, I spent too much time (at work) yesterday reading the various posts.
Thanks for you answers, and sorry for all the questions, I wish one of you  guys lived closer so I could ask all those questions in person.

Marc

[Finsky]

But then you said to join hive parts after a week. Do you mean to combine the old and the new hive again? If so, which queen do you kill, the old one or scrape off the new queen cells?

It takes at least a week and you get a new queen there. However you a queen which continues brood raising. It takes 2-3 week until the new starts egg laying and it is too big brake in this time of summer.

So which one would you combine then, the old hive with the swarm hive, or the swarm hive with the package?

If you have package hive, it it best shoice to combine brood and package. That hive gets a good queen and queen gets a lot nurser bees.  You get a good hive from thsi combination.

Ok, and if you haven't been confused yet (I am), what happens if I just keep the strong hive split and increase my hive count by one? Would I still harvest some honey this year from the remnants of the strong hive?

It is not wise at all.  

Brood part has very few foraging bees and it takes a month that it is in foraging condition

Foundation part gather a while hone and it take 2 months to get balance in nurser bees and foraging bees.

If you have 5 frame nuc , it takes 2-3 months to gather honey.

*** You get best advantage when you give to package queen a good colony.

If you need third hive, you may make it later. Get a new egg laying queen and play first with these two hive and let them raise.

[mwiehn]

Finsky, thanks a lot for your patient answers. Out of curiosity, where in Finland do you live? I am a native of Germany and moved here in 1998.

Marc

[Finsky]

, where in Finland do you live?
Marc

I live in capital city Helsinki. My bees are 150 km to north east  on summer cottage.

[mwiehn]

Finsky, that's quite a drive you have to see your bees... the things we do for our passions... :-)

Last night I sketched out how I will follow your advice about splitting the strong hive and then combining the mainly brood hive with my package hive. The more I thought about it the better I liked that idea. One detail though I didn't quite get.
I scraped off all swarm cells in my strong hive last Sunday. I am guessing that the bees will have started constructing new swarm cells about three to four days later and that the queen may have laid eggs in there within another two to three days. In other words, this Sunday they should be where they were last Sunday. Do you think that's plasuble? If so, then that would mean the new queens couldn't emerge from the swarm cells for another two weeks or so from today. If I go ahead and split the hive this coming weekend, then wait another week to make sure both hives are ok, wouldn't that mean that the brood hive doesn't have a virgin queen just yet, but is about to see one emerge. If I scrape off all queen cells at that point, make that hive queenless for a day, then combine it with my package hive, wouldn't that have the advantage that that hive wouldn't loose more time waiting for the virgin queen to emerge, than fly, mate and finally start laying eggs before I need to find her and kill her so I can combine that hive with another one. Does that make sense? Did I miss something in my chain of logic? :-)

 :D I bet I am making this more complex than it is, but it is also a heck of a lot of fun to work with the bees instincts and biology to get what I want without forcing them to do things they don't want to do.
Thanks again for your feedback, I am looking forward to your answer to this one.

Marc, Indianapolis

[Finsky]

Quite often hive succeed to hidden queen cell and beepeeker believes that he has destroyed all. On another hand if queen cell is capped, hive may swarm when ever when day is good.

It is not wise to push forward actions.

Third thing, and very important, that when hive waits for swarming, queen almost stop egg laying. You get a big gap in brood production and it affects  in main flow after a month.

[Finsky]

If I scrape off all queen cells at that point, make that hive queenless for a day, then combine it with my package hive

A big danger is that swarm hive bees do not accept the package queen and they try to kill it.  They do not accept what ever, and further more they raise their own queen and they do not need "foreign" queen. That is risk.

wouldn't that have the advantage that that hive wouldn't loose more time waiting for the virgin queen to emerge, than fly, mate

It is really long course.

and finally start laying eggs before I need to find her and kill her so I can combine that hive with another one.

It depends when you have your honey flow. You do not loose time you you have not good yiedl on fields.

If you have time you get a new egg laying queen. If you do so, you may take 2 frames of emerging bees from swarm hive, give them to package hive. It gets a good kick.

Did I miss something in my chain of logic? :-)

There are many ways to handle these things. You need use  harsh mind.