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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Greg Peck on October 28, 2006, 01:00:36 am

Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on October 28, 2006, 01:00:36 am
Hello all, I am new to beekeeping and love reading all these post.

My question is that my bees (I only have one hive) have not been taking the sugar water that I have been giving them. The Bee Inspector was here several weeks back and gave the hive a good bill of health but told me to keep feeding them as much as possible because their stores were not up to par. I have been feeding 1to1 sugar water with 2 table spoons of cider vinegar in a gallon pail feeder sitting on the top of the frames (inspectors instructions). Over the past 4 or 5 weeks they have only taken about 1 gallon. I change it out routinely . When I change it out there are allways bees "eating" out of the feeder. I know that they will not take it if they are gathering from other sources but it has been pretty cold and has frosted several time here in central Pa, I have not seen much out of hive activity.  The last inspection with the inspector showed several frames completely empty with very little capped honey in the top hive body. Is this ok? Am I screwing something up?

Thanks in advance for any input or suggestions.

Greg
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 28, 2006, 02:34:06 am
When you feed for winter, give syrup 1:2  during one week as much as they take.

Then when you are new beekeeper, look inside what is there. How much bees have stored, capped food and how much brood.

Vinegar is not necessary in winterfood.

So, look first inside and we know more.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on October 28, 2006, 08:46:40 am
Greg,

If your worried about them not having enough stores,  You can build a sugar board.
http://robo.hydroville.com/v12/content/view/20/2/

Or just make some hard candy to feed in an emergency
http://robo.hydroville.com/v12/content/view/23/2/

Either way, they can get to the food when it is cold and you don't have to worry about them suffering from dysentery from all the liquid.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 28, 2006, 09:16:57 am
Robo, syrub is the easiest way to give winter food to bees. One box hive take whole winterfood in couple of days.

No promlem is somewhere else if bees have not got enough food in 4 weeks.  

It is better to him to look into hive than we give bad answers.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on October 28, 2006, 09:34:46 am
Quote from: Finsky
Robo, syrub is the easiest way to give winter food to bees.


I agree, but easiest is not always most full proof way for a beginner.   Feeding too thin of syrup too late in the year is the easiest way to get dysentery.  I agree he should look into the hive and see.  But if he is still concerned,  providing hard candy for insurance is harmless.  If they don't need it, they won't eat it, and it provides no harm like syrup.

You have seen many times where beginners become too attached to their bees treating them as pets.  Although they are good intended I believe they tend to over feed and doing so with syrup is not good for hive moisture.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 28, 2006, 10:01:29 am
Difficult to know. Bees have had one month time to fill their hive.  I guess that it is full and that is why they do not take.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Michael Bush on October 28, 2006, 01:10:41 pm
Sometimes the bees just have to make up their mind to do something.  Like take syrup, or move up to the next box etc.  When it's cold they won't take syrup.  If the syrup is warm they will take more.  I'd make 2:1 (2 parts sugar to 1 part water) for winter feed.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 28, 2006, 01:39:08 pm
I have had many hives which have started their wintering and do not take syrup. I have poured syrup into combs and I have put box full of syrup under their box. They are obliged to move it upp.

But feed in autumn with dry sugar or with candy, it is odd idea. Bees must work harly before they can dilute dry sugar. They have to get water from bonds. If you give 66% syrup bees start to carry drinking water.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on October 28, 2006, 10:22:06 pm
Thanks for the replies. I opened the hive today to remove apistan strips, to check on their stores  and to make sure that I had not screwed them up by giving them 1to1 syrup. The hive consist of two hive bodies and two empty suppers to cover the pail feeder.  Early in September I have swapped the hive bodies due to the top one being heavy and the bottom one being very light. The bees did not have much stores at that time. Today I noted that the top HB had good amount of liquid in the cells but not much capped off. I did not pull any of the bottom HB’s frames out as it was only about 56 degrees out and the bees were not to happy. I could see that  the top of all the frames were capped off as far down as I could see.  I put a pail of 2to1 syrup on and closed things up.


Robo - these bees are my pets and I have each one named. There is Mary, Beth, Jen, Sara, Tiffany……… LOL just joking. I dont think they are pets, but they are my first bees and I would like to see them make it through the winter.

Thanks guys,
Greg
 
Here are a few pics that I took today. You can see more and full sized pics here (http://peck.secondfast.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=15)

(http://peck.secondfast.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN5701.JPG)
This is how I am feeding them

(http://peck.secondfast.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN5835.JPG)
Top of bottom HB

(http://peck.secondfast.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN5836.JPG)
Capped cells in bottom HB

(http://peck.secondfast.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10001/normal_DSCN5837.JPG)
Top of top HB
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on October 29, 2006, 12:41:10 am
Quote from: Greg Peck

Robo - these bees are my pets and I have each one named. There is Mary, Beth, Jen, Sara, Tiffany……… LOL just joking. I dont think they are pets, but they are my first bees and I would like to see them make it through the winter.


Greg,

My statement was not meant to condemn or criticize.  I too am into beekeeping because I enjoy it and use it to escape from the hectic, stressful world I live in.   Finsky on the otherhand is in it as a business and to make money.  There is nothing wrong with either, but the goals you have is what dictates how you will manage them.   Time is money in a business model, whereas you and I can spend all the time we want with our bees.  One thing that we struggle with on these forums is to realize that our goals may not be the same as the person asking for help and therefore our methods (although best for us) may not be the best for them.

Good luck.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 29, 2006, 01:06:43 am
Grek. it seems that you have not enough bees fo two box for winter.

You should look through the hive. At least you may take another box away and winter in one box.

Pick upp brood frames and capped frames. Put them into on ebox and let bees crawl there.

If you had enough bees for two box, you cannot see upper frames.

Perhaps reason to you "not take syrup" - hive is that colony is small and is  able to keep warm only a part of hive.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Brian D. Bray on October 29, 2006, 07:22:43 pm
2 tablespoons of cider vinegar to a gallon of 1:1 syrup?
I would suggest cutting the vinegar by at least half and going to 2:1 syrup.  
I use 1 teaspoon to a gallon of 1:1 syrup and the bees take it readily--2 tablesppons is 4 times as much; which could turn the mixture too acidic for the bees.
Trying lowering the vinegar and then monitoring their intake.  
It could also be, as suggested, that the bees have reduced their consumption rate due to having already taken enough stores.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 30, 2006, 04:35:27 am
Grek, your combs seem very dark and old. Next summer you should get foundations and arrange to them new combs in brood area.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on October 30, 2006, 07:58:34 am
I cant find where I read to use 2 table spoons of vinegar but I did read it somewhere. When I looked at the hive the other day I put on 1:2 with no vinegar. Thanks for the info

I bought this hive from a local beekeeper who needed to get out of beekeeping due to a family death. I got it in September but it had not had any upkeep done to it all year due to this gentleman’s family problems. I don’t know if you can see in the pics but the bottom HB is the halflap joint type and the joints are coming apart and it looks like water is getting to the wood . So the hive needs some work, I built new hive bodies already and am just waiting for spring to switch them out. I will be changing out the foundation as well. The idea for me was to buy these bees to learn about them so that next year I can set up several hives and hopefully have most of the newbee mistakes out of the way.  

I am building my new hives out  of poplar wood  due to the cost. I cam build 2 HB,  2 med Supers, outer cover, and bottom board for the same cost as one HB from the catalogs. Not including cost for time but woodworking is my other hobby so that is not a problem. Do you see any problems with using poplar wood. It gets painted anyway so I could not see why it would be a problem.

Thanks again

Greg
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 30, 2006, 02:22:48 pm
Well Greg, you have good attitude. If you don't make mistakes you will not learn. If you really want to learn beekeeping you need several hives. Reactions of different hives tell what is succesful and when it is even mistakes.  There are a lot differencies in hives' responses.

Bees are wild animals, not tame. It takes time to get such an experience that you may anticipate what they are going to do.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: randydrivesabus on October 30, 2006, 03:02:05 pm
as long as you paint the poplar it should be as good as any thing else.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 30, 2006, 03:15:10 pm
Your hive size for winter

I noticed you picture gallery. It seems to me that you colony is quite small. One box is enough over winter.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Brian D. Bray on October 30, 2006, 04:00:16 pm
Popular, as with most hard woods, unlike evergreens, have a tendency to dry rot if exposed to weather, which is why it's not used in building construction.  That said the boxes should still last for5-6 years before developing any serious problems, if painted.  The various varities of Fir, Pine, and Cedar (including Cypress) will last for decades if properly cared for.  If you like wood working rebuilding your boxes every few years shouldn't be a big problem.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: randydrivesabus on October 30, 2006, 05:10:39 pm
i don't mean to post just to contradict you Brian so it is with all due respect that I want to point out that poplar is an excellent wood for construction and that many log homes (not those kit things) are built of poplar. it is not, however, a carefree material.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on October 30, 2006, 07:56:06 pm
Thanks for the comments on the Poplar. I had the same feelings about the wood. I just wanted to see if anyone had any major problems with it. About painting I have read both to paint the inside and outside. It does not seem right to me to paint the inside. What is the ruling on that?

Finsky, about putting the bees in one HB. What do I do with the bees stores in the upper HB most are not capped. How do I go about getting the bees out of the top HB. Also I need to move this hive about 200 yards from its current location at some point. Would I be better off moving it now in the cold weather or wait till spring when things warm up?  As you can see in the gallery the location is not the best due to the trees and limited sun light. I have another area that will accommodate probably up to 10 hives and they should get more sun light.

On a side note I had put the 1:2 sugar water  on the hive on Saturday today I looked at it and it does not appear that they have touched it. I did notice condensation on the pail.

Thanks again
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: pdmattox on October 30, 2006, 08:40:53 pm
I would not paint the inside of the hive, outside only.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Michael Bush on October 30, 2006, 10:02:09 pm
I NEVER paint the inside.

But then I seldom paint the outside:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beeslazy.htm#stoppainting
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/EightTenEightHives.jpg
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on October 30, 2006, 10:50:49 pm
Quote from: Greg Peck

Finsky, about putting the bees in one HB. What do I do with the bees stores in the upper HB most are not capped. How do I go about getting the bees out of the top HB. Also I need to move this hive about 200 yards from its current location at some point. Would I be better off moving it now in the cold weather or wait till spring when things warm up?  


Bees generate warm in their beeball and their respiration rises up and moisture condensates in cold combs. During the winter syrup will start to ferment. Bees will be sick and you loose you colony.

You may extract the syrup from combs and cast it away. It is not so expencive. Perhaps 20 lbs sugar. Or you store it in a can and add there rdry  sugar so it will not ferment.

The hive is best to move when it is time to make cleansing flight or during winter when they do not fly any more.
.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Zoot on October 30, 2006, 11:20:30 pm
The problem with poplar arises when it is exposed to standing water and unable to dry out completely and quickly (the undersides of hive boxes for instance). It will rot away in a heartbeat.  While more expensive, fir or any of the cedars will repay the investment with their longevity.

I'd paint the outside of poplar boxes thoroughly. Not as much of an issue with high grade cedar, etc.
Title: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 01, 2006, 02:30:52 am
Grek send me more pictures. It seemed very clear that colony had too much room. I valuated that colony may be pressed to 5-6 fames for winter.  There is screened bottom and no inner cover. So warm air escapes from ordinary bee area and they are not able to handle syrup in cold hive.

And Harrisburg Pa in in quite cold winter area. It is time to get hive in winter condition.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Trot on November 01, 2006, 09:49:27 pm
Greg,

don't know about open SBB in your area..?  But one thing kind of bothered me from the start: Judging from your pictures - you have no inner cover?
Finski finally noticed also. So, IMO the bees are cold, that is why Finski believes that the bees are not strong enough... ?
You said that you are handy? Quickly build yourself an inner cover. In the rim, cut an 3" X 6 mm top entrance.  That said and done, put the feeder pail of 2:1 (you keep writing 1:2 ?) on top and only one empty on top of that...
It is good idea to weigh the hive to see how much food they have? Use scale with the hook on a stick. The total weight of 2 body hive should be 50 to 60 kg !  That means 25 to 30 kg on side or back, times two...
When pail is off, put on inner cover a sheet of teen-test, ( pressed newspaper/wood product) not the one used to sheet the outside walls of houses, cause that one is impregnated with tar. You get the clear stuff. On top of this put a piece of Styrofoam, about 1.5" thick. this will prevent condensation on inner cover in cold weather...
Wrapping? Your choice.  Tar paper, with cut out for top entrance - very important!!!

Regards,
Frank
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on November 01, 2006, 10:43:41 pm
Thanks again for the input.

Frank, I do have an inner cover and I had it set up as you described with the inner cover on the top of the top HB then the pail feeder on top of the cover over the hole. The bee inspector told me to put the pail on top of the frames because he thought that the bees were not going up into the hole to get to the feeder. It probably was true that the bees did not go into the hole but that was probably because they were not taking the sugar due to getting natural sources. I did not notice any increased usage once the pail was placed on the frames. He did not indicate how long to keep it this way but he probably only meant to do it for a little while or something.

You indicated to use Teen-test. I am not failure with this product. Is there another name it is also know by and where do you get it. Local hardware store?

I will be moving the bees into a single HB as Finsky instructed. I would have done it the other day but I wanted to take some more pics for Finsky and make sure it was the right move.

The weather here is to be in the 40’s and 50’s this week. What is the coldest that I could move the bees into one HB? Would it be better to just make the move in the cold or wait to see if it warms up above 60.

I am feeding 2 parts Sugar 1 part Water. I must have been typing it backwards.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 02, 2006, 12:39:53 am


When you generally put hive in winter condition, every gap between frames should be full of bees - to lowest pats of frame.  If not, take exra frames off and put medium wall.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Trot on November 02, 2006, 12:15:47 pm
greg,

inspector should have known that at this time of the year is not good idea to be without inner cover if nothing else - because of lack of top entrance, which is very important when bees work the sugar feed, (getting rid of excess moisture)

This teen-test is also called  " Homasote " but is lately hard to get, without asbestos/silica added. Needs to be pure paper/wood mixture, kind of fluffy, (it wicks out moisture which forms where warm and cold meet)
You can look for this stuff in lumber yard, Home depot?
I could not get it this year here in Canada. So I was looking for old-fashioned ceiling tiles. They used to be made from this stuff. But they are also now full of glass wool and silica which is carcinogenic for you and not good for bees.(made in China)
I have, by chance, found in the pre-cut section of the lumber yard, this 2'X4' pieces of CORK-board !  The kind used to pin on notes in schools and offices. It's about half inch thick and you cut it on table saw to the size of the hive.  It's a bit more money but once you have it it will last forever...

About the move? It will have to be your call. I wouldn't move nothing when bees are in a cluster, is very stressful for them.  When temp is around 60 is OK, but I personally do not open nothing below telescopic cover, this time of the year!  Cause, bees have now propolized all the cracks and crevices for winter!  If you break it up they will be distressed cause it's too late for them to get propolis and fix it up. They may get chilled if it gets windy!?

I thought so, that it was a typo about sugar mixture...
Don't worry too much, you're doing OK. People here will turn you in the right direction. Just like they say: "Two heads are better than one!"

Regards,
Frank
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on November 03, 2006, 03:06:27 pm
I went today to take the pail feeder off and to move the inner cover down. But I noticed that there were very few bees actually in the top HB so I quickly removed it. There was maybe a 100 or 200 bees I had to shack and brush off the bottom of some of the frames but for the most part they all were in the bottom HB. So that is done. I don’t know for sure if the queen is in there but I was not going to go digging for her as it was in the low 50’s.

Finsky, you said to let he bees rob from the other frames if they need. Do you mean to set one of the frames from the top HB  near the hive for them to take from?

I have purchased some Styrofoam insulation board that I intend on using to insolate the outside of the hive with tomorrow.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on November 03, 2006, 03:20:03 pm
I have purchased some Styrofoam insulation board that I intend on using to insolate the outside of the hive with tomorrow.

Greg,

I would not recommend putting the insulation on the outside of the hive. On the top as Frank suggests is a good idea to help prevent condensation dripping onto the cluster.   If you do the outside of the hive,  it will prevent the sun from warming up the hive on sunny days which allows the bees to move the cluster to new stores.  If you want to wrap, use tar paper.  It helps eliminate any drafts thru the supers,  and also raidates the warmth from the sun into the hive quite nicely.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 03, 2006, 03:52:27 pm
I don’t know for sure if the queen is in there but

I saw larvae in your pictures. You  have a queen there.

Look then, how many frames bees occupy. You may make middle wall into the box. It helps a lot in wintering and outside styrox.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on November 04, 2006, 01:49:10 am
It helps a lot in wintering and outside styrox.

Finsky, Are you saying that is does help to insulate the outside of the hive with Styrofoam?
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 04, 2006, 03:15:52 am

Finsky, Are you saying that is does help to insulate the outside of the hive with Styrofoam?

Yes, many have used it here during winter. It hepls greatly during spring build up too.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on November 04, 2006, 07:31:23 am
There is a difference between using styrofoam hives and placing stryofoam on the outside of a wooden hive.
Furthermore, with a top entrance for ventilation you aren't keeping heat in anyway.  But you are preventing the sun from heating the hive.

I would suggest reading this ->http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html (http://www.beeworks.com/informationcentre/wintering.html)
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 04, 2006, 09:01:11 am
There is a difference between using styrofoam hives and placing stryofoam on the outside of a wooden hive.


Robo, you talking about such thing which you do not know.
insulating plates on outer side of wall diminishes 30% food consumption. I had 25 years solid wooden boxes where I afterwards put insulating plates. After that insulating no colony died by starwing. Later I byed styrox hives.

Look at the picture. I have wintered bees in those uninsulated boxes in front of picture. http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/Kuva_051.jpg


Quote
Furthermore, with a top entrance for ventilation you aren't keeping heat in anyway.  But you are preventing the sun from heating the hive.



Absolutly wrong! Top enrance is extremely   necessary. And sun does not shine at night when it is coldest.

In our country sun does not heat hives during Ochtober to end of February. Hive generates 23 C temperature in the ball. It does not get sun heat.
In winter we may have too months clouds that we cannot se sun not at all.


Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 04, 2006, 09:10:01 am

 On the top as Frank suggests is a good idea to help prevent condensation dripping onto the cluster. 

Dripping on the cluster is not possible because heat comes from winterball, heat goes up, spreads vertically when it reaches inner cover. Then dew point comes in coldest corners and edges of the hive.

I can see that happen in my wooden inner cover during winter. The center of inner cover is dry and edge areas are moist. Then warm transmit moisture through insulation into gap between outer and inner cover. But of course not if insulation does not transmit moisture

Question is, where is the dew point, where is cold surfaces where moisture forms droplets.

.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Robo on November 04, 2006, 09:38:45 am
Robo, you talking about such thing which you do not know.
insulating plates on outer side of wall diminishes 30% food consumption. I had 25 years solid wooden boxes where I afterwards put insulating plates. After that insulating no colony died by starwing. Later I byed styrox hives.

Finsky,  you are not the only one with experience here.   I DO know what I have tried and what has worked best for me.  I HAVE placed styrofoam on the outside of hives and they DID NOT do as well as others right next to them wrapped with tar paper.

Quote
Absolutly wrong! Top enrance is extremely   necessary. And sun does not shine at night when it is coldest.

Read my post again.... I did not say top entrance where bad or where not needed.  I said they let heat out.    Sun does shine during the day and provides a great heat source. Ever walk into a insulated building in the winter before noon that has no heat?

Quote
In our country sun does not heat hives during Ochtober to end of February. Hive generates 23 C temperature in the ball. It does not get sun heat.
In winter we may have too months clouds that we cannot se sun not at all.

Well in our country sun shines almost every day and provides an excellent source to radiate heat into the hive.

Quote
Dripping on the cluster is not possible  because heat comes from winterball, heat goes up, spreads vertically when it reaches inner cover. Then dew point comes in coldest corners and edges of the hive.

Dripping on cluster IS possible.  Yes it forms in the corners first but as the condensation freezes in can slowly progress inwards. 

There are different methods that work best for different people iin different climates, but I guess Finsky's is the only "right" best.

I will stop adding any confusion to this topic. 

Greg - all the best
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 04, 2006, 10:49:48 am
Well in our country sun shines almost every day

I believe it. From Hawaiji to Alaska  :mrgreen:   ... I live on same latitude as  Anchorage.

PS: 65% of US hives are wintered in California.

Our bees are inside hive from October to March all the time. And they are alive after that. Many even here do not know how moisture acts in the hive but they get all hives alive over winter :)


That moist hive cannot be that droplets come onto beeball. That is why hive needs upper entrance open. Nosema is the worst which bees get in moist hive.  One guy kept glas plate as inner cover. Of course moisture condensates onto cold surface like in the car or in the refrigerator cooling element.
.
 
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Zoot on November 04, 2006, 11:45:48 am
In some recent visits to nearby beekeepers I noticed an interesting variant on the use of styrofoam insulating panels used by one gentleman who has been in the hobby for about 50 years (of all of the locals he's the only one I know of who insulates some of his hives) -he covers the sides and backs but leaves the front faces exposed. This side faces south and recieves sun all day - which can be frequent here - while the insulated backs and sides bear the brunt of the cold wind which blows invariably from the west and s. west here in winter.

He claims that his insulated hives do consume food at a lower rate and always survive. He said that he feels that there is some heat absorption through the front hive face when the sun hits it and the panels on the backs and sides help to retain it through the colder nights - those hives are measurably warmer.

We also discussed top entrances as I am considering changing to them and he said he had limited expeience. He ventured the theory that they had some advantages and in the matter of heat loss/water condensation he thought there was a trade off: some heat might be lost but probably no more than through the top vent hole you'd be using anyway, and that they would probably aid in ventilation further reducing condensation.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 04, 2006, 12:05:14 pm


Upper entrance helps when bees die so much that lower entrance is blocked. That happens when hive has nosema.

If climate is mild, bees fly out to die fo nosema. If it is too frost, bees die inside and fall onto bottom.

My upper entrances are in winter the size that I may put my little finger in. Bigger is unnecessary. During hard frost -20C upper entrance is blocked with ice crystals which come from bees' respiration air.

 
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 04, 2006, 06:53:54 pm
And now, hopefully, we can get back to Finsky's suggestion of putting a dividing board in the hive to make a smaller space for the bees to keep warm. 
It's a good idea, one I endorse, as it is much like reducing the small or weak hive to the size of a nuc and wntering that.  Extra space takes extra heat which means the bees consume stores at a faster rate.  Reducing space prolongs the available stores as it allows the bees to make the best use of those stores.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 05, 2006, 12:48:34 am
suggestion of putting a dividing board in the hive to make a smaller space for the bees to keep warm. 

Towards spring, when bees start to raise brood they raise winter ball temperature from 23C to 32C.  ( 73F --> 90F). Then the heat loss is much more bigger and they are not able to widden brood area as in warm room. Then bees consume food faster.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Zoot on November 05, 2006, 01:19:28 am
Brian,

When istalling a diving board(s) in a box does one also have to install a board at the bottom of the space that is "divided" off to keep the bees from coming up into that void? It seems that a simple vertical board would only stop lateral migration, not vertical, upwards migration.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 05, 2006, 05:22:20 am
Brian,

does one also have to install a board at the bottom of the space that is "divided" off to keep the bees from coming up into that void?

I use to prefer the wall which is a little bit open in lower part.

1) When bees go to empty part they are easy to come back
2) When you install the the diving board you may use two systems:
 2a old inner cover push the board down or
 2b board is higher than inner cover. So you cut from styrofoam ne proper inner cover.

When spring comes and you enlarge bees' room the flexible system is better. When you take room off or add frames 2a works best.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 06, 2006, 12:52:54 am
The hive body can be divided into 2 or 3 sections or cut so it can be used either way (this makes 2 5 frame nucs or 3 3 frame nucs.  Just make a 1/4 inch saw cut up the inner wall of each end section for each divider board desired. Oversize cut the dividerboard so that its bottom rests on the bottom board and about 3/8 inches sticks above the top edge of the hive body to enclose the open space between the top of the frames and the inner top.  Using 1/4 inch plywood works well.
You can use the hives so divided as holding nucs for extra queens, rearing your own queens, or wintering nucs. 
If you use divider boards a inner top can also be made so that all sections (2 or 3) can be fed at the same time without problems--just cut the necessary holes in an extra inner top and use it when needed.
When wintering with divider boards it is important to remember that the small masses of bees will require more attention during the winter--more feeding required. Also they should be expanded into larger nucs ASAP in the spring.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Greg Peck on November 06, 2006, 05:52:30 pm
Thanks for all the input. I have placed a piece of Styrofoam under the inner cover, added a screenless bottom board, and will probably be insulating 1/2 the hive and wraping the whole thing in tar paper. I noticed today that the bees are still out getting pollen from somewhere.

As far as the vent for the top of the hive, I have an inner cover that has a small notch cut out of the one end for a top entrance. Is this good enough or should I make a 1/2 or 3/4 inch hole towards the top for a bigger top entrance/vent?

Thanks
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Brian D. Bray on November 06, 2006, 06:08:41 pm
If you're using the standard bottom board entrance the notch in the inner top to vent moisture should be adequate.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Trot on November 06, 2006, 08:15:54 pm
Greg,

I see that you made up your mind? That is good! One should listen, read and learn
and also know how to make ones own decisions.
Don't' forget!  No insulation on the front of the hives, if they are facing the sun! 
As it was already said here, such findings tend to work in areas where they are practiced and are not universal...
I insulated my hives for many years and when you run bees for profit, small things are not important, especially if they consume time or money - which is the same thing when you come to the bottom line...
With time I began asking myself: "Why were some winters, healthy, strong hives dying?  They had plenty of food?
With time I had realized what was going on and the answer was simple, but sometimes hard to see.
The insulation has locked the hives in cold and they were not able to move.  Most the time food was only inch or two away.
Of course, if one is lucky and blessed with a few sunny days now and again, than everything is well and nobody is the wiser.

Finsky's bees do well for 9 moths of winter and I am glad. But than only he knows how many make it and how many don't. And lets remind ourselves that he also uses heaters.

Our bees are in a cluster about 8 months, give or take a few days.  I did some testing with heaters last winter - without the bees - cause they are 124 km away.  I determined that that extra heat is just enough what keeps the area on centre from dripping?  I also found, as he said, the sides and corners would be frosty and on warmer days - dripping. One big plus with heaters is that it keeps bottom board relatively dry.  My observation was, that if heater wasn't on the bottom board - hive would be probably half full with ice.

This is like space exploration. Both, Ruskis and Americans are there, but we all know at what greater cost did one achieve the same over the other!

Regards,
Frank
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Finsky on November 06, 2006, 09:47:45 pm
Greg,

Finsky's bees do well for 9 moths of winter and I am glad. But than only he knows how many make it and how many don't. And lets remind ourselves that he also uses heaters.


I have had 45 years bees and I have used heaters 3 years. I use heaters only for raising brood in spring after cleansing flight, not for wintering.
Title: Re: Bees not taking sugar water
Post by: Trot on November 07, 2006, 12:37:29 pm
Thanks Finsky.  So noted...

Regards,
Frank