Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Bee1 on May 19, 2007, 08:53:52 am
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Can you transition to small cell foundation one super at a time?
Basically my very new hive (5 weeks old, 1 deep, 1 medium) has not worked the second super yet and I’d like to go out in the yard today and change the foundation in the second hive to small cell. I don’t know when I’ll get a chance to switch the bottom deep, probably not this season, so the hive would be would working with 2 different size foundations for awhile.
Is the plan worth a try? This way I wouldn’t have to be changing foundation in the 2nd box.
Bee1
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It is not that simple. It takes small bees to build small cell. As long as you have large cell in the brood area, they will keep rearing large bees.
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:-\ Thats not what I wanted to hear..
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Are you going to regress to 5.1, then 4.9? If so, you can put 5.1mm in the top box, and let them draw it out and use it. Then switch the other box later. Most of the bees will still be bigger until you get both boxes switched, but at least it will be drawn out and the 5.1 shouldn't be a problem for the big bees.
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Actually, I peeked in today and it looks like they have been cleaning up and doing repairs in prep of moving up. I'm going to leave them alone for now and devise a new plan --- maybe something like if and when they need to be split I can be ready to move them into sc, and maybe even 8 frame boxes.
ciao,
Bee1 - slowing down, aaah.
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My new nucs will be going into 8 frame mediums soon. I wanted to go with the small cell but Bushy Hill's description of the small call foundation said for experienced beekeepers. I am new. Foundationless also interests me very much but I get the sense I should gain a bit of experience first.
Jack
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the more i measure my "starter strip" foundations comb, the more dissapointed i get. they just don't build small cells :? i'm really thinking bout importing some of that HSC or permacomb! it sure is expensive...with all the postal costs and stuff but for results..i hope it'll be worth it, if i do it.
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My new nucs will be going into 8 frame mediums soon. I wanted to go with the small cell but Bushy Hill's description of the small call foundation said for experienced beekeepers. I am new. Foundationless also interests me very much but I get the sense I should gain a bit of experience first.
Jack
I started out going to do small cell foundation and then ended up cutting the foundation into starter strips. I think it is best to start out the way you want to go instead of learning one way and then have to learn the other way. If you want to go foundationless then do it.
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i'm really thinking bout importing some of that HSC or permacomb! it sure is expensive...with all the postal costs and stuff but for results..i hope it'll be worth it, if i do it.
Yep. HSC for instant regression. That it the way to go these days. Enough for one brood box or a nuc and then from there go without foundation.
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Bee1- sure you can do it like that, but you will still have a transition period where the bees will rework some of the cell sizes. The process will not be finished after the bees have drawn the second box. I tried a few colonies a box at-a-time as you are suggesting, mine worked out alright. I did it because I would rather work by the box, instead of rotating frames out and up.
You could add a second box (smallcell foundation) now, a third box (small foundation)early summer. Remove the bottom box (old largecell) early next spring when the cluster is up high, and add a box of small foundation on top. Basically you do a demaree (I think that is what it's called) and at the same time do a swithcheroo of boxes. You will most likely have to rotate the second box(now the new bottom box) out of the stack too (later, perhaps) because the initial box (attempt) at drawing small cells usually doesn't look too pretty. By the middle of next season you would have removed all large cell boxes that are on the hive now, as well as the first box of smallcell that you installed.
I wanted to go with the small cell but Bushy Hill's description of the small call foundation said for experienced beekeepers. I am new. Foundationless also interests me very much but I get the sense I should gain a bit of experience first.
Jack
Shakerbeeman,
I read that in the dadant catalog, and took it to be nothing but a bunch of hoohoo. I see no way in which working with largecell foundation first will make you more capable of dealing with smallcell. Largecell is one choice, one direction. Smallcell is another. One methodology is not built upon basics learned by working in the other. Ask yourself why you wanted to try smallcell, and how using largecell first will help reach that goal :? The only reason I can think that a dealer would suggest smallcell for experienced beeks, is because experience teaches rule #1 the bees do what they want. They do not always draw foundation as intended, and in order to achieve "pretty" smallcell frames, you are going to deal with culling some practically new combs. Dealers don't want to deal with dissatisfied customers, especially those whose dissatisfaction is a result of not knowing rule #1. Hmmm, I just read this post to check for errors, sounds to me like I'm chewing you out or something- I don't mean it like that, not at all so please don't take it the wrong way. I just don't care to read that little "experienced only" disclaimer in the catalog, gets me kind of fired up
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This is great and thanks for the confidence. While you are at it, what do you think about skipping the small cell and just starting out with the foundationless. Each 5 frame nuc will be ready soon to transfer to 8 frame mediums. I could just fill them out with foundationless. I am in the process of making frames and at this point I still could make 45 degree angles on the inside of the top and even the bottom frame parts as I see in some pictures. What do you think?
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You could add a second box (smallcell foundation) now, a third box (small foundation)early summer. Remove the bottom box (old largecell) early next spring when the cluster is up high, and add a box of small foundation on top. Basically you do a demaree (I think that is what it's called) and at the same time do a swithcheroo of boxes. You will most likely have to rotate the second box(now the new bottom box) out of the stack too (later, perhaps) because the initial box (attempt) at drawing small cells usually doesn't look too pretty. By the middle of next season you would have removed all large cell boxes that are on the hive now, as well as the first box of smallcell that you installed.
In the ideal world that may be the case, but anyone who has worked with bees long enough knows things never go as planned. Even if it does work as planned, your talking multiple years and a lot of work. If your really intent on going to small cell, buy some HSC and be done with it.
I read that in the dadant catalog, and took it to be nothing but a bunch of hoohoo. I see no way in which working with largecell foundation first will make you more capable of dealing with smallcell.
I totally disagree with you on this and I believe you are missing the hole point by simply comparing small cell to large cell. The disclaimer says "experienced beekeepers" not "experienced large cell beekeepers". There are enough areas for the newbee to make mistakes with large cell bees on large cell foundation that just get worse when they attempt to regress at the same time. Just take a look around the forums of the issues people have installing packages. How many are spacing the frames too far apart and getting burr comb? Mishandling queens? etc. etc. You believe these people are ready to regress bees?
Since the dealers charge more for small cell foundation, you think it is in their best interest to deter people from buying it? They understand the issues that a first time beekeeper has to deal with and know regression at the same time only amplifies the chances of failure. It is in their best interest to make a successful first time beekeeper who will continue to buy supplies for years to come, not fail and quit.
I guess the bottom line is that if a newbee is so hung up on small cell, than buy small cell bees or HSC. Don't think you can just buy large cell bees and magically make them small cell with no beekeeping knowledge. It is great to see so many hobbyist getting into beekeeping, but I fear a lot will get frustrated and quit because of all the issues trying to convert to small cell. Yes it can be done, but is it not trivial. Michael Bush, who has more beekeeping knowledge in his little finger than most of us here spent years working at it. So don't believe someone who has never had bees before can just jump right in to it.
I am starting to see the same attitude towards regressing to small cell as I saw a few years back when essential oils was the cure all. People were so determined that it was the right answer, they only proclaimed the good results and wrote off the bad results to something else, and would attack those who provided objective findings. Now this is not an attack on small cell (I actually have some HSC and feral cutouts), just the fact that regression is not as smooth as some like to claim it is. It seems that the general process is always explained in the "ideal case" and very few actually have "ideal" results. Just take a look at Tillie's experiences. I'm sure there are others, I know I have, out there with similar experiences that just figure they did something wrong and just keep their mouth shut.
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I just have to add that I'm sure it all has to do with the person. Some people can work on their own cars, others haven't a clue what is under the hood. I rebuilt my first engine with out any prior experience from instructions in a book. Experienced mechanics around the shop kept telling me I was messing up. I got the engine together and in the car and it ran great.
I got my first bees from doing a cut out despite all the discouragement I got from people telling me how difficult it was gonna be, I had no experience and I would probably get frustrated and bla-bla-bla. (i did leave out in the earlier post the fact that my bees had the brood comb from the hives I removed from the walls.)
I keep making the mistake that people have a bit of intelligence. I keep thinking they are able to read and figure the stuff out. After all I did it. And I ain't all that smart.
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I wouldn't recommend starting with foundationless, or even starter strips, based on my past experiences. Robo, I don't think I'm missing the point in whole or even partly. The disclaimer is attached to the small cell add, but not the other (LC) foundation. That would imply "experienced large cell beekeepers", would it not? I have looked around the forums, and see the issues facing newbees. Spacing frames too far apart will cause problems regardless of foundation type used. Mishandling queens is just that, it can easily be done despite large or smallcell. From what I understand of Tillie's posts, she used starter strips and bees drew out a mess. I do not recommend strips because that was also my experience. I do believe "these people" are ready to regress bees if that is what they want to do. Small foundation is more expensive, I chaulk that up to marketing. It is still "new, special, different" and can sound enticing because of claims that it reduces varroa loads. I have, and am not, making any of those claims as I cannot say I've seen it myself. My bees survived on largecell foundation without treatment, and they are now surviving on smallcell. Of course dealers are interested in making (more) money and want repeat business. What I'm saying is that the "experienced beekeepers" disclaimer is easily eliminated from the equation once someone learns rule #1, bees do what THEY want. What that means is that (yes, I agree with you) this is not an ideal world and plans don't always work. Is that something that must be learned on one's own, or can it be shared on beemaster forums? If Shakerbeeman gets that, understanding that he may not get "pretty combs", I see no reason why I should not be willing to share my experiences. And yes, changing over to smallcell takes time and effort.
Glad to hear you don't believe in magic Robo, I don't either. But I don't think a transition from large to smallcell requires it either. I do think newbees do not have to learn all experiences on their own. How is a beekeeper to get experience with smallcell unless they 1.) try it, or 2.) ask questions of beekeepers who have? I just read Jerrymacs post, yes it depends on the person. If someone knows how to use their resources, I think they can work through just about anything. If someone can't identify or use those resources, it could turn out to be a very rough road. Asking questions on this forum is an indication of someone using a resource.
I keep making the mistake that people have a bit of intelligence. I keep thinking they are able to read and figure the stuff out. After all I did it. And I ain't all that smart.
Nice post Jerrymac, I can relate. I don't like approaching people as if they were lacking in intelligence
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Both of you guys are right; it does take a bit of lets see what happens and experiment. That is what it is all about. New procedures and products do not just happen, but rather from some experimentation. Some times it turns out sometimes it turns out real ugly real fast. It is all about the game plan, but in the end there has to be some purpose to the plan. I have read a lot about small cell and there seems to be some evidence that suggests that we may be on the right track. Please note I said some evidence and suggest, I am not attempting to infuriate anyone, but rather taking an overall look from the outside. We as of yet do not have the cure all system for anything in place (I think we never will).
If you want to go to small cell, there will be a learning curve, and time between from where you are at to where you want to go. As long as we all understand that this is all experimental in nature, I think we can all learn. The real “test†will be if it works across the board. I also believe that a lot of this will be“hand on†learning; however this forum will provide the ideas and common pitfalls for all of us to learn from. In the end we may gather information that may lead us to the ultimate cure for what ever problem we encounter as bee keepers.
Ron
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I wouldn't recommend starting with foundationless, or even starter strips, based on my past experiences.
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree again. From my experience, I believe a first time beekeeper will have much better luck regressing bees with TBH than Langstroth's with SC foundation.
The disclaimer is attached to the small cell add, but not the other (LC) foundation.
Perhaps because the bees people buy are large cell bees and do not have issues drawning LC foundation?
That would imply "experienced large cell beekeepers", would it not?
Where would you bucket TBH beekeepers?
My bees survived on largecell foundation without treatment,
So then why go thru all the effort to regress??
What I'm saying is that the "experienced beekeepers" disclaimer is easily eliminated from the equation once someone learns rule #1, bees do what THEY want.
And how do they learn that rule but from experience. When people have no hands-on experience, they have no idea what to expect or how to react to what they see. I don't care how many forums/books/whatever you read before you get your bees, you are going to make mistakes or have issues. There are a lot of folks here who did due diligence in preparing before they got their bees, and they still get worried of things because they don't have any hands on experience.
Look at all the post questioning dead brood at the entrance or "does this look normal" posts. My point is don't make it anymore painful (for the keeper or the bees) by trying to regress right out or the box. Give it a year so you understand Rule #1 first hand.
How is a beekeeper to get experience with smallcell unless they 1.) try it, or 2.) ask questions of beekeepers who have?
3.) Buy small cell bees
4.) Plan ahead and buy HSC
I don't have a problem with someone trying it, I have a problem telling someone who has no experience with bees to try it by regressing. Just like I wouldn't recommend somebody who is learning to fly jump right into experimental aircraft. As I stated before, if a newbee wants to try sc then buy sc bees or HSC. If it was as trivial to regress as some make it out to be, everyone would have small cell bees (except Finsky :evil:)
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n9kww, right on :)
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My bees survived on largecell foundation without treatment,
So then why go thru all the effort to regress??
I didn't consider it a large effort because I was interested in seeing what happened, how the bees might have been different. I am always looking to try new ideas, needed or not, just to add to my experiences and have fun with my keeping of bees. Finding something that works is not good enough for me- if I couldn't continue to experiment and grow in my understanding, I wouldn't bother at all.
Looks like we will have to agree to disagree again. From my experience, I believe a first time beekeeper will have much better luck regressing bees with TBH than Langstroth's with SC foundation.
Alright, we'll agree to disagree. I've posted my thoughts on this thread, I'm going to leave it at that rather than continue arguing.
Ben
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FWIW, I was in no way discouraged when my bees built cross comb on starter strips. I wasn't happy, sure, but I look at all of it as my learning experience. I share it here and on my blog because without the help of other people, especially the sharing in this forum, I would feel like a person in a boat without a paddle. I read a lot about bees and beekeeping and in the end I learn best by doing.
As Michael Bush pointed out when I had my messy hive experience, some hives just do that. I have 3 1/2 hives now and one of my hives, started from a nuc at the same time as the hive that created the mess, has done beautifully on SC starter strips - that's all I've put in that hive and they've drawn gorgeous comb. I haven't measured it to see how small the cells are, but it's easy to see without a measuring stick that the worker cells are smaller than my last year's hives and that they are drawing about the same amount of drone comb as the older hive. I am quite pleased with that SC experience.
I continue to learn from the messy hive. It has calmed down a lot and still seems less interested in SC or in drawing comb in general. I think the hive has a Russian queen mutt - (at least with more of that genetics) and the good hive has an Italian queen mutt (at least with more of those genetics). The messy hive now draws comb that is straight. I've not helped them with my interference, but all in all they are doing OK. I think they need a better location (they are in more shade than my other hives) and in general they are more cantankerous than my other bees.
Personally, I think beekeeping will always be a learning experience and I wish I had started last year with SC rather than heed the catalog companies about how I needed to be "experienced" first. But I am learning with every single thing I do with the bees. And as always I continue to appreciate the support and interchange of this forum.
Linda T in Hotlanta
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tillie, Ask any beekeeper who has kept bees for any length of time and they will tell you that they continue to learn. "IF" they don't, they are bee havers not beekeepers. :roll:
doak
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>Can you transition to small cell foundation one super at a time?
The supers are irrelevant. It's the brood nest that matters. The bees usually won't drawn the smaller (4.4mm to 4.9mm) cells in the supers. They will tend to draw drone cells or 5.2mm or so cells in the supers as they are building them for the purpose of honey storage and not for the purpose of brood rearing. In the brood nest is the only place I see them draw really small cells and in the brood nest is the only place you'll use it to get smaller bees who will build the really small cells.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm
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Because my bees are in transition, the difference in bee sizes right now is amazing. Some of the drones are HUGE from those out of control drone cells and they look like Gulliver up against some of the much smaller worker bees who are now emerging. The front landing of the hive looks like a motley crew.
Linda T
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now..when would be the best time to push them into brood rearing. i mean..bees draw different comb at different time, i noticed that the strong building urge in spring is not very good for regression, they built me lots of drone comb and i doubt they regressed a lot, but i'd had to measure it, i measured a few but..dissapointed, although they were smaller pieces, some even from supers, but still.
would it be better to remove most of brood comb in late summer and feed them stron-kind of in preparation for winter, plus they'd be forced to build comb for brood and the best of all, i doubt they'd want to build drone comb, well maybe a little, but it would be because of the "strong flow"
this popped to my head because someone once mentioned that beeks were at most pleased with comb built on buckwheat pasture, now--this pasture is very late-autumn one, when bees usually don't even build comb, most beeks around here say that after linden pasture(mid june) bees are reluctant to building new comb-so, with an artificial flow would it go?ah..i'll give it a try with at least one hive.
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Bees build three sizes of comb, not counting queen cells: drone comb, storage comb, worker comb. On a frame of comb the upper portion (1st inch or so) is usually storage comb, drone comb is usually on the ends and bottom corners, and worker comb makes up the majority of the rest of the comb within any frame within the brood chamber. Supers will usually be mostly storage with some drone sized comb.
The object of regressing is to get smaller cell size in the brood chamber. the way you do that is to take last years comb and move it up and let them build new smaller comb in the brood chamber. With in 2-3 years you have small comb in the brood chamber and storage/drone comb in the supers or for catching swarms.
Using starter strips or bare frames will cause the bees to self regress over a period of time.
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I've become curious about this particular aspect of regressing to small cell - the resulting array of cell sizes that will develope for various uses (drone cells, storage cells. etc). Can this create any level of complication for the 8 frame medium beekeeper who has been using frames freely for either brood or storage?
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If you want totally interchangable frames, it would be best to use 4.9mm foundation and cull combs that are oversized as you go. Eventually you'll have all 4.9mm and it can be put anywhere.
I'm having very good luck with the Mann Lake PF120 frames which are 4.95mm The bees seem willing to draw it and don't seem to mess it up or draw it larger.
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Can you transition to small cell foundation one super at a time?
Basically my very new hive (5 weeks old, 1 deep, 1 medium) has not worked the second super yet and I’d like to go out in the yard today and change the foundation in the second hive to small cell. I don’t know when I’ll get a chance to switch the bottom deep, probably not this season, so the hive would be would working with 2 different size foundations for awhile.
Is the plan worth a try? This way I wouldn’t have to be changing foundation in the 2nd box.
Bee1
It is not that simple. It takes small bees to build small cell. As long as you have large cell in the brood area, they will keep rearing large bees.
I've been thinking about this idea, and if the issue is that the large cells are on the bottom, and the bees will continue using that primarily for brood, what if the box of small cell foundation were placed under the current box (with larger cells)? If the tendency of bees is to have brood below and storage above, and storage cells larger than brood cells, wouldn't this setup encourage them to build out the smaller foundation below for brood and use the bigger cells in the upper box for storage?
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I've been thinking about this idea, and if the issue is that the large cells are on the bottom, and the bees will continue using that primarily for brood, what if the box of small cell foundation were placed under the current box (with larger cells)? If the tendency of bees is to have brood below and storage above, and storage cells larger than brood cells, wouldn't this setup encourage them to build out the smaller foundation below for brood and use the bigger cells in the upper box for storage?
Placing the small cell foundation under the large cell brood chamber doesn't move the brood area, and as Micheal stated about they tend to only draw small cell in the brood chamber. Your analogy of brood on bottom storage on top is how man wants it to ideally be, not necessarily what the bees want. Think of a feral swarm and how they develop their nest. They find a suitable cavity and start building comb for a brood area first from the top of the cavity and continue to build down from there. My TBH have mostly drone cells at the bottoms.
If one is looking to move toward small cell, I wouldn't worry about the supers, but start by putting small cell foundation (or foundationless frames) in the middle of the brood chamber. Remember, it is a regressive process and it takes small bees to make small cell. Your not going to get large bees to draw small cell. You can get large bees to draw slightly smaller than large cells in the brood area that will raise slightly small that large bees, who in turn will draw slightly smaller than slightly smaller large cell......... and you can regress your way down. This only works in the brood area, as Micheal also stated above, small cell bees draw larger cells for storage.
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Your analogy of brood on bottom storage on top is how man wants it to ideally be, not necessarily what the bees want. Think of a feral swarm and how they develop their nest. They find a suitable cavity and start building comb for a brood area first from the top of the cavity and continue to build down from there. My TBH have mostly drone cells at the bottoms.
Ah, I see. I thought brood on the bottom and honey storage above was their natural inclination.
If one is looking to move toward small cell, I wouldn't worry about the supers, but start by putting small cell foundation (or foundationless frames) in the middle of the brood chamber. This only works in the brood area, as Micheal also stated above, small cell bees draw larger cells for storage.
I wasn't going to worry about the supers, I was just looking to give them as much of a jumpstart as possible. I realize that they won't go from big bees to small bees in one generation.
I installed my packages this year (4 weeks ago), is there any disadvantage to starting their regression this season? Of course, my primary goal for them is that they have enough stores for the winter, and I don't want to encourage them to draw comb at the expense of winter stores...big bees are better than dead small bees. I'll be putting a second deep on each hive in the next week or so; they've drawn about 60%-70% of the frames currently in their single deeps. I'll use small cell starter strips, unless there's an advantage to using full sheets of small cell foundation?
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i'm really thinking bout importing some of that HSC or permacomb! it sure is expensive...with all the postal costs and stuff but for results..i hope it'll be worth it, if i do it.
Yep. HSC for instant regression. That it the way to go these days. Enough for one brood box or a nuc and then from there go without foundation.
What is this HSC again??? Is this something I can start using on my strong hive?? How to do this?? I want to go foundationless next year and is this a good way to start??
Annette
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What is this HSC again??? Is this something I can start using on my strong hive?? How to do this?? I want to go foundationless next year and is this a good way to start??
Annette
It is fully drawn 4.9 plastic frames. It takes a little persuasion to get the bees to use it at first. It seems they will ignore it unless they have no other choice. I have two swarms that I put into hives with just HSC and they are doing fine. It is reported that once the bees use the frame, the acceptance issue is not a problem. It is a good way to almost instant regression your bees. After a couple of brood cycles, you would have all smallcell bees.
http://www.honeysupercell.com
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I installed my packages this year (4 weeks ago), is there any disadvantage to starting their regression this season? Of course, my primary goal for them is that they have enough stores for the winter, and I don't want to encourage them to draw comb at the expense of winter stores...big bees are better than dead small bees. I'll be putting a second deep on each hive in the next week or so; they've drawn about 60%-70% of the frames currently in their single deeps. I'll use small cell starter strips, unless there's an advantage to using full sheets of small cell foundation?
Instead of just adding a supper of starter strips on top, I would consider slowly feeding them into the center of the existing brood chamber and move the current larger ones to the outside. It will lessen the chance of them drawing larger comb for honey storage and in the worse case over drawing into adjacent frame space with capped honey.
BTW foundation size for starter strips is irrelevant. It is not like they will draw out the SC foundation and continue the same size down the frame. They will build the size comb they want. So if your going with foundation strips, just buy the cheapest.
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Instead of just adding a supper of starter strips on top, I would consider slowly feeding them into the center of the existing brood chamber and move the current larger ones to the outside.
I've seen quite a number of times on these forums to not break up the brood nest with undrawn frames. Is regression an exception, or should I just place them at the edge of the brood frames?
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I've seen quite a number of times on these forums to not break up the brood nest with undrawn frames. Is regression an exception, or should I just place them at the edge of the brood frames?
You should not break up the brood area if the weather is cold or the hive is weak. Also keep in mind that there is a big difference between a starter strip or foundationless frame and a full frame of foundation. A full frame of foundation is like a wall separating the two brood areas. With the starter strip or foundationless frame, the bees will festoon in the open area and bridge the gap between the two brood areas making it one brood area again.
If your goal is to build small cell, then your best chances are in the brood area.
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>I've seen quite a number of times on these forums to not break up the brood nest with undrawn frames. Is regression an exception
Regression and swarm control are both good reasons for an empty frame in the brood nest. But you should make sure there are enough bees to quickly fill the space with festooning bees. Just make the space for the frame and wait few minutes. If they can't fill the space, you should put things back like they were and leave them alone. If they can then put the empty frame in between two drawn brood combs. In this particular case (between two nicely drawn brood combs) you don't even need the starter strip.
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If a a person buys a package of bees & a queen...shakes the bees into a hive body with HSC...even if the bees come from standard doundation...will the bees work the HSC without problems??? I am feeling that IF I start another hive, I might like to start with HSC even if it is extremely pricey IMHO...hhhhhmmm :-\
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If a a person buys a package of bees & a queen...shakes the bees into a hive body with HSC...even if the bees come from standard doundation...will the bees work the HSC without problems??? I am feeling that IF I start another hive, I might like to start with HSC even if it is extremely pricey IMHO...hhhhhmmm :-\
Well, nothing with bees is guaranteed "problem free", but absolutely. This is the best way to instant regress bees. I did what you described with 2 swarms (I don't buy packages because I'm SHB free and would like to stay that way) and they are doing fine. A little spotty at first with the brood pattern, but they are building up fine. Once you go thru a couple of brood cycles, you can start feeding foundationless or starter strips and draw your own small cell.
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Oh thanks Robo, that sounds doable...and then one can use the 4.9 foundation for brood OR do we let the bees make their own brood foundation as well...?
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Either 4.9 or foundationless would work fine. My plan is that once I get the hives regressed and building small comb to move the HSC to another hive for regression.
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>If a a person buys a package of bees & a queen...shakes the bees into a hive body with HSC...even if the bees come from standard doundation...will the bees work the HSC without problems???
If they have no choice they usually give in pretty quickly and use it. Some people use an excluder as an includer (between the queen and the exit) for the first couple of weeks until there is open brood.
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Some people use an excluder as an includer (between the queen and the exit) for the first couple of weeks until there is open brood.
Yes, I forgot to mention that. I poured syrup with lemongrass oil on the frames before giving them to the bees and I put an excluder on to of the bottom board to keep the queen in on one and the other was a small swarm that I put into a nuc with no includer. Both queens started laying in a couple days. It is difficult to see the eggs in new HSC. I see they are now offering black and green frames.
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Forgive me, but you all talke about moving spme frames out and replacing with HSC or empty...What do you do with the frame you removed? Won't it have brood? Where does it go? I think I get confused when talk of moving frames here and there and in and out gets going...
Yeah...confusing to me...
Thanks,
Shar
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>Forgive me, but you all talke about moving spme frames out and replacing with HSC or empty...What do you do with the frame you removed?
That depends on what is in it, and if you have the same sized boxes. You are always just moving frames around. You pull one out of a box somewhere and put it in the brood nest and put that one back in some box somewhere. If you have all the same sized boxes you have many more options.
> Won't it have brood?
I wouldn't pull one with brood. I would pull empty and honey frames.
> Where does it go?
If they are all the same sized boxes, probably in the super. If they are not, probably you'll extract it or let them rob it out.
> I think I get confused when talk of moving frames here and there and in and out gets going...
It always has to go somewhere even if it's just a super or another box.
You should always have a few extra boxes around just to juggle the frames into.
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Some people use an excluder as an includer (between the queen and the exit) for the first couple of weeks until there is open brood.
Yes, I forgot to mention that. I poured syrup with lemongrass oil on the frames before giving them to the bees and I put an excluder on to of the bottom board to keep the queen in on one and the other was a small swarm that I put into a nuc with no includer. Both queens started laying in a couple days. It is difficult to see the eggs in new HSC. I see they are now offering black and green frames.
I have a new hive that came from a nuc a few weeks ago. I am very interested in tryingthe HSC in this hive as it seems that since there are only about 4 frams built out, it would be ideal to start now rather than culling out later.
I am not sure that I understand the purpose of the queen excluder though in this case. I understand that it is to go under the brood box.
I have one deep brood box now.
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I am not sure that I understand the purpose of the queen excluder though in this case. I understand that it is to go under the brood box.
The purpose of the excluder on the bottom is when you put them on the HSC with no other comb (ie no brood). This prevents the queen from leaving and them absconding. If you are moving a 4 frame nuc with comb into a full size hive and filling it out with HSC, then the excluder is not needed. They will have brood to keep the queen. You will have more difficulty with then accepting the HSC though since they will have the 4 frames of wax. If you plan to shake them onto all HSC, then you should use the bottom excluder.
You could shake them on a full deep of HSC, put an excluder on top too (to restrict the queen to the HSC) and then put the nuc frames in another super on top until the brood hatches.
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You could shake them on a full deep of HSC, put an excluder on top too (to restrict the queen to the HSC) and then put the nuc frames in another super on top until the brood hatches.
I think my only concern with this idea is that there would bee too much room for these bees. I already and dealing with SHB and adding even more comb by putting a bottom deep and moved the deep with brood up top.
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You are probably right. Luckily I don't have to deal with SHB.
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Ok, I am still considering giving it a try. While this does cost a bit more, it does seem like a much easier and faster way to transition to small cell. It seems that I may be able to use a box of 20 to rotate them through my 3 hives until all are on small cell. It will still take a while and a good bit of work but alot less than the other methods....???
When using this, what is used for the honey supers? Do you have to use small cell foundation / strips / etc? Or can they just use what I have. Will small cell bees mess up standard cell wax foundation?
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if you have good established colonies, you should use the comb that they have now in the brood boxes, for honey supers.
when you regress them, why would you ever put normal foundation in again?
you should use either starter strips or SC foundation.
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if you have good established colonies, you should use the comb that they have now in the brood boxes, for honey supers.
when you regress them, why would you ever put normal foundation in again?
you should use either starter strips or SC foundation.
I would nt use normal foundation again in the brood box(es). I would let them draw their own (most likely with starter strips) or use SC wax foundation.
I already have a bunch of unnused standard wax foundation and frames and that is why I was asking about using it in the honey supers. If that messes things up then fine, I am just checking.
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well, i don't really know how bees would draw normal foundation, i said it just because...let's say you'd wanna make a split. and if you have standard comb, the split would have to go throu the whole proces of regression again...i mean, i hope you know what i'm aiming at.
basicly you could use normal foundation in honey supers, you'd only have to make sure you never put them into the brood boxes.
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Ok, I am still considering giving it a try. While this does cost a bit more, it does seem like a much easier and faster way to transition to small cell. It seems that I may be able to use a box of 20 to rotate them through my 3 hives until all are on small cell. It will still take a while and a good bit of work but alot less than the other methods....???
That was/is my plan, except I had a few good removal jobs and used the money to buy more HSC.
When using this, what is used for the honey supers? Do you have to use small cell foundation / strips / etc? Or can they just use what I have. Will small cell bees mess up standard cell wax foundation?
I used my standard honey supers, except on these hives I did use an excluder to keep the queen from moving up to the real comb and brooding more large bees. I want to go thru a few HSC only brood cycles to make sure I have all small cell bees before letting them build natural comb.
You could use your standard cell foundation as starter strips. They don't use it as a pattern, just a guide to place the comb. They will draw whatever size comb they desire, regardless of the size of the starter strip. In fact I use corrugated cardboard for my starter strips. A lot of people seem to get hung up on using SC foundation for starter strips when all it is doing is costing them more.
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I started 3 packages on starter strips this year and 1 on a deep 5 frame nuc with plastic frames. I finally gave the nuc a super below the nuc box because they just refused to work the plastic any more--it looks odd having a juc box atop an 8 frame super--I built a special top that slides down around the outside of the nuc and insteps the nuc over the super. The rest of the packages built out the 1st box of starter strips w/o problems--very good looking comb. The next super went haywire--a lot of cross comb on the hives with bottom entrances whereas the bees with top entrances drew the strips out fine.
I now use just a wooden rib down the center of the frame and spray it with sugar syrup when I install the frames. I also have taken to putting the super on the entrance side of the hive so that the bees have to travel over the empty frames to get to the brood nest. That's up for top entrances and supering below for bottom entrances. This works in keeping the combs straight with foundationless frames.
If you follow: I'm not using foundation at all any more in any form. I'm also supering hives with only empty frames sprayed with a little syrup. I've found that baiting the frames with syrup and then making the bees traffic across the empty area aids greatly in keeping the bees drawing straight comb without the guide of foundation or strips.
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I started 3 packages on starter strips this year and 1 on a deep 5 frame nuc with plastic frames. I finally gave the nuc a super below the nuc box because they just refused to work the plastic any more--it looks odd having a juc box atop an 8 frame super--I built a special top that slides down around the outside of the nuc and insteps the nuc over the super. The rest of the packages built out the 1st box of starter strips w/o problems--very good looking comb. The next super went haywire--a lot of cross comb on the hives with bottom entrances whereas the bees with top entrances drew the strips out fine.
I now use just a wooden rib down the center of the frame and spray it with sugar syrup when I install the frames. I also have taken to putting the super on the entrance side of the hive so that the bees have to travel over the empty frames to get to the brood nest. That's up for top entrances and supering below for bottom entrances. This works in keeping the combs straight with foundationless frames.
If you follow: I'm not using foundation at all any more in any form. I'm also supering hives with only empty frames sprayed with a little syrup. I've found that baiting the frames with syrup and then making the bees traffic across the empty area aids greatly in keeping the bees drawing straight comb without the guide of foundation or strips.
Holy Foundationless, Batman!!!
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Brian,
All of the frames that I have introduced this year with starter strips have been put into the upper supers where the bees have invariably built comb with huge cells - all of which has been used for storage. But I have a question about putting these frames into the brood area with the intention of starting the regression process: is there an issue with support here when using unwired frames? I may have asked this back in the spring so forgive my faulty memory.
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You have probably noticed that new white comb tends to bend if the frame is tilted off upright, however, after a few weeks the comb firms up and is as strong as comb built on foundation with wire support. If you put on starter strips the frames should be able to be used in an extractor after about a month or so. If you only have a few hives the cut and strain method works well--just cut out the comb, honey and all, and put the frames back on the hive. Having no wires allows you to harvest honey whenever you want some--1 frame at a time if you want. You can cut & strain or cut as chunk honey. If you're short on equipment this method also allows you to only have 2-3 supers per hive and harvest as you go.
With all medium boxes they can go wherever you want. It makes the operation incrediably simple.
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I have noticed all of the above. They did sag especially on extremely hot days. Does that mean that these unwired frames are also suitable for brood rearing?
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Zoot: I use nothing but foundationless/wireless frames now. For everything--brood, cut-comb, chunk, crush & strain, even extract. After the first 2 weeks the comb becomes fairly rigid. If you've ever had the opportunity to do a cut out of a feral hive you will have noticed how rigid aged comb can be. Feral bees do not use foundation or wires. I'm going natural as possible with Langstroth designed equipment.
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Threads are moved around here all the time - why hasn't this been moved to the Natural and Organic section?
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Brian,
I am doing as you are. Just slowly introducing foundationless frames with starter strips to get the whole hive on natural comb. I read lots of your posts and I agree that the bees can just do whatever size cell they need within the hive.
Have you tried extracting with the natural comb or do you do the crush and strain method???
I would still like to continue using my extractor if possible.
thanks
Annette