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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: TwiceOnSundays on February 19, 2011, 01:00:17 pm

Title: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 19, 2011, 01:00:17 pm
Hi folks, I just discovered my hive was lost this winter and am looking to learn from the situation, any ideas are appreciated.

I finished my first year of beekeeping, my hive struggled for most of the year and went into the winter with limited stores.  I fed them am a lot in the fall to try to get them through the winter.

We had a lot of snow in late January (I'm in southern Wisconsin).  On Superbowl Sunday, I went out to check on them (it was mild) and I was delighted to hear s good solid buzz inside.  I poured
Some sugar on the top inner cover, and I unblocked the entrance (only a single bottom entrance) it had been blocked by snow, and also several dead bees that I cleared out.  Later that day I noticed a few bees had left the hive and were dying in the snow around the hive.

Then we had a week of very cold weather, so last weekend I went out to check if they needed more sugar and discovered that the whole hive was dead. 

I brought the hive inside to clean it out and see what I could learn.  There was no food, and many bees face-first in empty cells.  So, I'd conclude that they just starved and couldn't get to the sugar I left.

But there are a couple of concerning things:

First, there is a lot of brown junk on the top of the lower deep frames, and splotches all around the upper deep.  My reading would normally indicate nosema, but I'm wondering if the entrance was blocked for too long and the bees had to dedicate in the hive, moving to the top area, away from the swarm, to do so.

Secondly, the hive smells terrible.  It's a sweet , rancid smell that permeated the entire house.  It could be related to issue 1, or it could be that the dead bees are relatively fresh, in that when I was pulling some out of the cells, they have pretty fresh, gooey insides.  I'd imagine a couple pounds of decaying bees has some smell, but it also seems to have affected the combs too.  A piece fell off and my daughter was going to take it to school, but just the comb was pretty rotten smelling.

Lastly, there are some light signs of mold on one of the middle frames. 

So, my primary concern is trying to figure out what went wrong and how to avoid it, and secondly determine if I can reuse these frames and if there are any precautions I need to take to do so.

Any input is appreciated.  I've already determined that my hives next year will have a top entrance for the winter, and. I'm going to take more care to make sure it's well-ventilated.  I have a screened bottom that I thought would make noisier a non-isse but the mold says otherwise.

Thanks much!
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: D Coates on February 19, 2011, 03:35:01 pm
I am not an expert.  From what you describe, I'd say they starved and started to decompose.  You said they were struggling for a while so they may have been winter hearty.  The brown in the hive could be nosema but it could be other things too.  Unless you have them tested, and it's confirmed I wouldn't worry about it.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 19, 2011, 03:54:20 pm
Bummer.  The brown spots were likely bee-poop, but 'could' be nosema.  Without seeing a picture it's hard to determine if it was more or less than normal accumalation. 

TOP entrances should be considered, especially if bottoms can be covered up by snow and prevent cleansing flights.  How was the moisture/condensation?  Was it Dry or wet inside? 

Was any of the sugar you left them still there, or was hive completely void of anything?  Once feeding starts we cannot stop until bees start bringing their own in.

Dead bees can stink pretty bad.  Clean it all up as best as you can, leaving as much comb as possible to re-use on new bees.  They will take care of the rest.  Welcome to beekeeping.

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: bee-nuts on February 19, 2011, 07:41:12 pm
Sounds like they starved to me.  I just lost one too.  A friend called me and said their was lots of dead outs reported in his beekeeper meeting.  One guy lost 27 of 30.  I am really worried now that any more sub zero cold snaps will keep knocking out colonies stuck on brood. 

Good luck with your next bees.  You better hurry and order em now!  You wont be the only one needing a replacement.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Trot on February 19, 2011, 08:51:06 pm
It sounds like a classic die-off from moisture, rot and of course starvation.  
Mouldy and mushy combs in center is as bad a moisture problem as it gets.  Poor creatures went the hard way!  Cold, wet, starved with gut full of crap!

I keep at it, but I gues people just don't read?  If they do, it seems to go in one ear and out the other?  
I hate to point fingers here, nor am I looking for an argument - but there is no need for bees to suffer like this.
I constantly harp, that upper entrance is needed, for many a reason.  In this case all of the reasons are represented, came together in one hive?  
That is rare.  
Just one of the above mentioned problems will do them in....

Especialy this, last season is for many a beek loaded with problems.  Hives are not set up for weather conditions that you people are experiencing lately.  Things were working fine before, but this winter all of your 50 states had snow, at one time or another!  Even Hawaii!?
Your bees are not used to this kind of weather and/or fast changes as we experience the lately.  They don't know what to do, but eventually figure things out, cause, cold automatically sort of brings them together and survival instinct eventually takes over.  But all that takes time - where our "northern bees' know, even foretell the weather in advance and act accordingly.  In a way, for northern bees life in the extremes is a bit easier. . . .

Bees usualy stay under the top (is warmer there) and if they have to go, they have to go all the way down and out.  
Here they could not even go out - the entrance was blocked, if I get this right?
If there was even the smallest entrance, up top?  For one bee at a time?  They could easily went poop elsewhere, cause through the upper hole - outside is only a few steps away!   Bees being cold blooded, they can make it from the top - never from down below.  
Think about it people, would you go around the block, when you have the sh..., or just run two steps to the john across the hall........?  Which route would you take and keep the drawers clean?

And don't forget this all important part!  Lay a piece of Styrofoam on top of inner cover!  To keep the roof over their head dry!  
Where moist, warm air from the cluster, meets the cold surface of the inner cover, it will condense and in short time it will start to drip on them.  If it is too cold outside, frost and ice will form under this cover and make them awfully uncomfortable.  When the weather warms, or sun warms the hive, this will melt and drip on them - do them in!  
Wet bee is a dead bee!  Insulation above their heads will keep them dry and alive, of course if some other requirements are also met?
  
Keep those hives tilted slightly forward!  If using SBB it makes almost no difference, but solid bottoms are problematic if tilted towards the back!   :'(  :shock:

Regards,
Trot
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 08:23:10 am
We all know its hard to come on this forum and read what new beeks have done 'wrong' to their bees.  While unfortunate and frustrating we also know that without beeks like Trot who consistently try to 'learn us the right way' we and our bees would be doomed.

The problem for many, especially new beeks is there is SO MUCH conflicting info out there. 

Trot;  Have you seen the type of instructions that come with a basic hive kit lately??  Well, for Northerners, its almost useless, yet hundreds attempt to raise and keep bees that way 'because they know no other way.'

So I again say "thanks Trot and thanks to all you other beeks so willing to put up with the frustration of having to repeat, repeat, repeat and repeat the lessons we need to learn.  Many of you are quite good teachers (that certainly includes Trot), some are smart and they know their bees, but suck at trying to teach, so the newbeeks (and those w/ some moss growing on them) are always in wait for those who can and do teach.  It can take alot of time, but that's what winter is for, right?

Thanks again Trot and please remember, newbeeks are entering the glory of beekeeping all the time, so its not always that people aren't reading your posts (well some don't I suppose), just that new ones are coming on board every day :). 

I for one hope this fact makes you even more willing to share (and teach) your beekeeping experiences.

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 09:29:32 am
Hey Bee-nuts, where are you in NW Wisconsin?  I'm in Stone Lake.  Sorry, just noticed your location.

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 12:28:34 pm
Can you give us a little heritage/history on the queen?   How big was the cluster on dead bees?   How big of hive (# of hive bodies) and how of the space was filled by the bees vs. unoccupied?  When you last feed them sugar,  did you see excess moisture?

A lot of the symptoms you describe can be secondary.  If the hive has too much space relative to the number of bees,  you can find mold and moisture.  Even when a dry hive dies, moisture moves in and can give a false impression.   If the colony had dwindled enough,  the cluster can not keep warm enough to move to the stores you gave them. 

Dark brown fecal stains indicated dysentery (and perhaps Nosema).

I would not jump to the conclusion it is moisture related without considering queen failure.  Where they strong with plenty of brood in the Fall?
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Trot on February 20, 2011, 12:43:39 pm
Thomas,

thanks much for nice and encouraging words of wisdom.  I much too often write something and than realize that is too 'direct' and that could perhaps ruffle feathers too much, so I erase and go away.  Much help, on this and other forums is good, but I constantly find that hives and equipment are not used and utilised to a degree for which they were intended.  Beekeepers are to eager to change, thinker and omit, as if they knew better than the 100 or more years of use and experience which is attached to the equipment that is the mainstream of our craft.

I do not blame the newbies?  Blame should go to those who manufacture and those who sell this?  They should realize that not all the equipment is going to 'experts and professionals!"  
Most, if not all, of today's equipment is no longer made the way it was, say 20 - 30 years ago.  In those days the inner cover had the entrance already cut in to it.  One can find other shortcomings whic are in/on equipment sold today - simply so done to save money.  Which IMHO is totally wrong and unfair to a consumer.
Granted, professionals and old salts don't need detailed instructions how to properly equip and use standard hive components - but newbies do!

Well, I will go now and hope that all those who read, know what I am trying to say?  
Another thing is, when we were young, starting out, we devoured all the books and knowledge that could be had, especialy in winter.  Winter is the perfect time to read, read and read some more...  Winter is time to make intelligent plans for the up-coming season in which mistakes from seasons past will not, should be repeated.  
Another important thing, to take in hand, as the new year/season starts; do not prepare bees the old way - the way the old timers do - the way we did it in the past years.  Times, weather patterns are changing drastically and I for one think that upper entrance with insulation under the lid is now more important than it ever was before.  
Just look what happened?  
This winter all 50 states had snow and cold temperatures.  This comes and goes?  Changes are frequent and quick!That is not normal and bees can not handle it.  They must have sufficient food in the hive, despite the fact that in years past certain amount was always enough and they could gather some more outside?  Now, one has to make sure that they have some, that they have more than they had in all the years past.   Times/ weather is a changing and one has to change with it or pay the consequences!  It is always easier to remove it, than to give it to them, when the need suddenly arises.
Well, I better go before I ruffle too many a feather.  But, be prepared - always for the worst.  It may cost a few bucks for pound or two of sugar, but that is far less what it will cost even for one lost colony.
 
You people down there are lucky.  Last year we were paying  $175 for a 4 frame nuc, with only two measly frames of brood and barely enough bees to cover the brood.  The other two frames should/must have the polen and honey - now they stick them in completely empty.  Also they must cull all useless frames/comb and save them for the nucs?  They are probably good people out there who sell good bees - but I am yet to find one in  my neck of the woods.  
And this year the situation will be worse, cause bees will be in greater demand!
The situation don't look too promising?  
It has became "dirty" business.  They sold me a cat in a bag, as it were - what will they sell to newbies?

Good luck to all...

Regards,
Trot    
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 20, 2011, 01:24:13 pm
Thanks for the info folks.

To answer a few questions:

There was very little condensation on the top cover, and not what I would call excessive moisture, but again since I'm new I don't have a lot to compare to.  The inner cover was dry.  And there was some of the sugar left on it, but I suspect because of the extreme cold they couldn't break to get to it.

The hive struggled all year.  They were extremely slow to build up, and without a good comparison (the one piece of newbie advice I should have heeded was to start with two hives, i think it would have been more apparent early that they were struggling).  I didnt confirm until July that they were being robbed pretty mercilessly.  Once i got that resolved, they took off and really were busting tail into the fall, and I didn't harvest any of their stores and was feeding them all fall.

As far as my prep, I read the beekeeping for dummies multiple times (which in retrospect im less impressed with) and attended the local beekeping starter seminar.  I don't claim to know a lot, but im starting to figure out that a good many vendors and book writers  aren't in the business of making me a successful beekeeper so much as in the business of selling stuff (which is why i sought out this forum).  How many hives come with a top entrance?  None that I saw.  I was aware of the option, but it certainly wasnt presented as a must have.

That said, I'll have one going forward.

Again, thanks for the input.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 20, 2011, 01:58:59 pm
Oh, and the cluster of bees in the hive was probably 6-7 inches around.  Lots of them dead at the bottom, and a small number sort of frozen in time walking around the hive. 

I don't suspect the bees were terribly strong from the outset.  A more experienced beekeeper in the area got her bees at the same place (Dadant in Watertown) and hers were dead within a few weeks.  Circumstantial evidence, though.

Does anyone have opinions on wrapping for the winter?  I wrapped in tar paper, but I notice other beekeepers in my area do not, and some of the local advice I've gotten suggests that ventilation is much more important than insulation.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 02:28:42 pm
Does anyone have opinions on wrapping for the winter?  I wrapped in tar paper, but I notice other beekeepers in my area do not, and some of the local advice I've gotten suggests that ventilation is much more important than insulation.

Another controversial issue with beekeepers.  Some will say it holds moisture in the hive,  others will claim it gives solar radiated heat to the hive on sunny days allowing the cluster to move to more stores.   I use to wrap before moving to polystyrene hives.  Michael Palmer, who I consider very successful,  swears by it.    Is it required, No.   You need to decide which side of the issue best fits you.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 02:34:41 pm
How many hives come with a top entrance?  None that I saw.  I was aware of the option, but it certainly wasnt presented as a must have.

It is not.  And from the sounds of what you have described, the hive was weak (poor queen?) from the start and not a moisture issue.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 02:42:11 pm
I'm adhering to the advise I've tailored and combined as told by Michael Bush, Trot, BjornBee, and even Finski  :), all of this forum, as well as other Northern Beeks too numerous to mention..Some will say otherwise but I believe that top entrances, in addition to bottom entrances, make perfect sense and likely "let out more than just heat" during winter months, which is very likely a good thing.  I used to wrap, then stopped, but may start again, but only the sides and back.

Today on another thread I came up with, quite accidentally, a new beek saying; "Beeks are as different as people are different"  who knew??? :-D

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 03:06:39 pm
Some will say otherwise but I believe that top entrances, in addition to bottom entrances, make perfect sense and likely "let out more than just heat" during winter months, which is very likely a good thing.

Including the bees if you would listen :-D

If it is all about ventilation, and not about quality of the queens,  I don't understand why we are seeing such a high rate of winter loss. :?

Back in the 70's, long before upper ventilation became so prominent,  5% winter loss was quite common amongst the beekeepers in this area.   Must be global warming......  But then again, I haven't noticed a higher die off with ferals in the last handful of years.  In fact, for some reason, the ferals I track have a lower failure rate than a lot of the beekeepers I know.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 03:11:07 pm
 :?  C'mon, what kinds of treatments were bees getting in the 70's?  How many BIG commercials were there? 

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 04:01:27 pm
:?  C'mon, what kinds of treatments were bees getting in the 70's?  How many BIG commercials were there? 

thomas
I'm not following?  What does treatment have to do with winter ventilation?   Who's talking big commercials?

If your trying to imply higher winter fail rates are due to chemicals/treatments or commercials producing inferior queens,  I'll buy that.  But winter ventilation ain't going to make it better.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 04:27:05 pm
Robo, you're the one who brought up the 70's and compared it to now :).  I'm uncertain what exactly you are debating if you really want to know.  

Upper ventilation as has been explained eleswhere (there was a thread comenting on it todayin fact) actually began many years ago when inner covers had notches already placed in them, for ventilation(?).  

Upper ventilation, Its about as new as foundationless beekeeping I think, which goes back quite awhile.  

What is it exactly that "you" have against top entrances Robo, your argument so far, hasn't changed my mind.

And who said anything about treatment?  Not me.  I don't, with anything synthetic anyway.  I do agree with you that poor quality queens is an issue, but who's fault is that?  Blame must imply intent Robo and if there's intent then you and i and every beek out here should be calling them out and telling other s who they are :-D

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 04:58:22 pm
Robo, you're the one who brought up the 70's and compared it to now :).  I'm uncertain what exactly you are debating if you really want to know. 
Yes, I bought up as a comparison for the claim that upper ventilation is required/key to winter survival.  Back then, every beekeeper I knew used the standard Langstroth setup that the catalogs sell and had no where near the winter loss that we have now.  That is why I question all the ventilation claims.   Personally,  I think a lot of people are mislead into diagnosing their winter losses as ventilation/moisture related.  Just today, two people reported loosing hives and people jumped right to ventilation.  A little digging and questioning revealed they where weak going into the Fall (perhaps poor queens?)  Is adding ventilation to their weak hives next year going to give them a higher success rate?  I doubt it.

Quote
Upper ventilation as has been explained eleswhere (there was a thread comenting on it todayin fact) actually began many years ago when inner covers had notches already placed in them, for ventilation(?). 

Yes the inner covers did and probably still do have notches.  But they where used on the top lip of the inner cover and under the telescopic cover and were small enough that bees couldn't pass thru.  That is a far cry from an upper entrance at the top of the nest.

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What is it exactly that "you" have against top entrances Robo, your argument so far, hasn't changed my mind.

Personally,  I believe heat retention is a higher priority.  The bees use less stores and build up quicker in the spring.   If people want to use upper entrance go for it. I'm not trying to convince anyone, I just like to give the opposing opinion so people can make an informed decision for themselves.  Too many people write off their winter losses to moisture.  The fact that ferals don't rely on upper entrances and excess ventilation also stands out in my mind.  If anything, I would find a mid entrance more appealing, that way you would still have heat retention above.

Quote
And who said anything about treatment?  Not me.  I don't with anything synthetic anyway.

Yes you.....
Quote from: T Beek
C'mon, what kinds of treatments were bees getting in the 70's?
perhaps attempting to say you I can't compare the winter loss rate in the 70s without upper entrances to the winter loss rates now.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Kathyp on February 20, 2011, 05:38:33 pm
robo and i disagree on plenty of things, but on this we do not.  especially when people insist on having and upper and lower entrance.  there is no sense to that near as i can tell.  if you want to test how bad this is, open your front door, turn on your heat, then open the flue on your (cold) fireplace.  you will feel the heat suck up and out of your house. yes, moisture may go with it, but how much dry cold do you think it takes to kill?

don't feed syrup late. let the bees seal the hive, and stay the heck out of it for the winter.  whatever moisture the bees create, they will deal with.  if the hive is well fed and prepared for winter, they do not need multiple holes in the hive to "help".  those same holes in a damp climate will let moisture in.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 20, 2011, 06:39:41 pm
Robo, thanks for more complete explanations of your viewpoint:).

KathyP, not sure yet what your up to ;).  

"Just because you/me/anyone just heard of or just discovered something new, doesn't make it new for anyone but you/them/me."

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Kathyp on February 20, 2011, 07:13:38 pm
Quote
KathyP, not sure yet what your up to

maybe i'm not being clear?  if a hive is properly ready for winter the last thing it needs is airflow allowing the heat to suck out.  is that better?
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Bee Happy on February 20, 2011, 07:20:42 pm
I have the luxury of a pretty mild climate - we get a few nights in the teens and that's about it - but if the bees aren't flying in the day I don't open the hives.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 20, 2011, 07:40:29 pm
Robo, thanks for more complete explanations of your viewpoint:).

No problem, and I respect your viewpoints.   It is always good to get multiple view points out there so that folks can make an informed decision on their own. 
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: bee-nuts on February 20, 2011, 09:03:58 pm
T-beek

Im on the LCO Reservation right now.  I live in Eau Claire and keep bees in Chippewa County.  Im thinking it would be nice to keep bees up here in the middle of Chequamegon-Nicolet National Forest north of here by barns or somewhere and have a few organic colonies. 

Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Trot on February 20, 2011, 09:19:12 pm
Everybody has a right to own opinion, but, some are prety weak, to say the least and I continuously wonder what is there with this upper entrance thing that so terrifies people?  This well known concept has been around in Europe for at lest two centuries, if not more?  
Remember - beekeeping is supposed to be about bees, their needs and not needs and likes/dislikes of us, people!  Until people drop their personal opinions/likes/dislikes, bees will continue to fail.

About failing queen?
Sure,could be?  
But, bees are to know that first, long before beek catches on, that queen is failing and they should have dealt with it?  The times where queens lasted 7 to 9 years are long gone.  
That hive was only 6 months old (first year keeper?) at best and already a failing queen?  Possible but not likely.  I in all of my 56 years of beekeeping have only encountered a few such failures - bees catch such things long before they come to my attention.  Remember; their lives depend on it!
One should safely tuck away the notion about a feral hive in a tree?   Far too often I encounter such bold scenarios.  We are not talking about no feral hive here.  We have a dead and dying hives that are dropping like flies (pardon the pun) all over the world.  The answer; in a tree is so and so...  That does not help none cause we are comparing sour apples with oranges.  This is not just American problem, or Canadian?  It is happening all over and this is only the start.  Sorry, but so it goes, the facts speak for themselves. . .  
Tree itself IS an upper entrance!  The trunk itself, dead or alive, is a living wick for all the moisture and ails of a feral swarm that found refuge - home in such a cavity!

The analogy of open door and open flue in the fireplace?
That is exactly the scenario one must stay away from!  That is CROSS-draft of which I have already preached a lot on this very forum!  Sure, everybody knows that it will suck out most of the warmth of the house?
But, it is a common knowledge that bees don't heat the hive.  They heat only its own cluster.  Any heat that escapes from there goes strait up and under the inner cover where it condenses and drips back if not insulated.  
(There is your moisture of which some think that is not there, impossible even???)  
The interior of the hive is often colder than the exterior.  Tests have long ago proved, that it takes about 72 hours for the temperature to equalise in the hive with temps from outside and vice versa.  (longer if hive is insulated)

Some 'house' analogy would now come handy here though?  I build many a houses in my time and know all about them.  Build one last summer - all alone, despite my advanced age.  
You young bucks...  Have you ever held a 2x6x16 feet on one end, up on the roof and nail it on exact place where a rafter is called for?  I think not!  Carried 4x8 play and  over 100 bundles of shingles up the ladder, alone?  Not many I bet.  Do it when you aproach 70?  Than we will talk some more...

For this "door&chimney" would have to be like this:  Open door = (bottom hive entrance.  
Plus: Fireplace/flue scenario?  
That open flue would have to be directly above the open door to resemble real hive conditions!  Than the draft would go straight up and gently draw with it the moist and dead air from the house.  
Not across the whole house, from the main door, if only open a crack, and to the fireplace, wherever that may be?  That would be deadly scenario, both, for people (in winter) and most certainly for bees - anytime for them!

Thomas?  Didn't I tell you that people don't read and if they do, it is only what interests them - they only pick the stuff that gets surely stuck in their craw?

Anyway, don't you people fret no more, I will not disturb your piece and simple-mindedness on this forum no more.  Do as you will, for that is what have you been doing until now.  Learn as you will...
It is all fine with me.  
I did not come here to lock horns with those who are equipped so and waiting for someone who has something real and time-proven to say and share?  
I came because of the people.  I came to help those who asked for it and firstly I came to help those poor bees, cause they are stuck between the rock and a hard place and such thinkering is not helping them none.  I aim, I hoped to help poor bees, because they have no voice!  They are stuck in those ill prepared boxes and are forced to live there - not by their own design - but simply by fate.  Human hands put them in peril and human hands must help them, for they can not help themselves.  
We took that choice away from them and now they suffer!
Is that fair?
I think and hope not!
Just the other day I read, on some other forum, where someone else also gave up on free help that he selflessly offered!  At the end he said something like this:  "Have it you ways, I have no time nor inclination to argue.  Do as you will, I just pity those poor bees.  On the end it comes simply down to this: "You have dead bees - I have live ones!"

And that, my friends, there in the passing wind goes all the knowledge and the difference that  it could make.

Nobody even heeded: "Learn on the mistakes of others, not on your own."  
We, the old timers, we already paid our dues.  Nobody offered help than - like it is offered now. Free help for the mistakes that are made again now!  We went through that long ago, we paid dearly, bees paid dearly.  Long time ago we erred and we learned from that - does anybody think that we would still be around if we didn't?  Learn right, I mean. . . .

Now I go back to lurking and shaking my old head in disbelief and sorrow. . .
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 20, 2011, 10:12:09 pm
Everybody has a right to own opinion, but, some are prety weak, to say the least and I continuously wonder what is there with this upper entrance thing that so terrifies people?  This well known concept has been around in Europe for at lest two centuries, if not more?

And something I was introduced to by my mentor back in 1959.
 
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Remember - beekeeping is supposed to be about bees, their needs and not needs and likes/dislikes of us, people!  Until people drop their personal opinions/likes/dislikes, bees will continue to fail.

Correct, the question should always be, "what is best for the bees?"

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About failing queen?
Sure,could be?  
But, bees are to know that first, long before beek catches on, that queen is failing and they should have dealt with it?  The times where queens lasted 7 to 9 years are long gone.
That hive was only 6 months old (first year keeper?) at best and already a failing queen?  Possible but not likely.  I in all of my 56 years of beekeeping have only encountered a few such failures - bees catch such things long before they come to my attention.  Remember; their lives depend on it!

These days bees are subjected to a whole host of chemicals placed in the hive to cure varroa & tracheal mites, hive beetles, wax moths, ants, slugs, and even mice. Then they forage where they encounter another avalanche of fungicides, herbicides, and pesticides. Purchased queens are being superseded by receiver hives as soon as sufficient eggs are produced to enable rearing a replacement. The foraged nectar is dehydrated, concentrating the various "..cides" into a toxic mixture. It's nearly impossible to get good queens, except from an organic beekeeper, and impossible from any beekeeper where the state requires chemicals for the treatment of parasites be utilized in anytype of commercial beekeeping business.

Ventilation is necessary to get as much of that junk out of the hive as possible, don't you think that during the evaporation process of turning nectar into honey that a certain amount is going to mix with the atmosphere within the hive?

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One should safely tuck away the notion about a feral hive in a tree?   Far too often I encounter such bold scenarios. We are not talking about no feral hive here. We have a dead and dying hives that are dropping like flies (pardon the pun) all over the world.  The answer; in a tree is so and so...  That does not help none cause we are comparing sour apples with oranges.  This is not just American problem, or Canadian?  It is happening all over and this is only the start.  Sorry, but so it goes, the facts speak for themselves. . .  
Tree itself IS an upper entrance!  The trunk itself, dead or alive, is a living wick for all the moisture and ails of a feral swarm that found refuge - home in such a cavity!

Couldn't have said it better.

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The analogy of open door and open flue in the fireplace?
That is exactly the scenario one must stay away from!  That is CROSS-draft of which I have already preached a lot on this very forum!  Sure, everybody knows that it will suck out most of the warmth of the house?
But, it is a common knowledge that bees don't heat the hive.  They heat only its own cluster.  Any heat that escapes from there goes strait up and under the inner cover where it condenses and drips back if not insulated.  
(There is your moisture of which some think that is not there, impossible even???)  
The interior of the hive is often colder than the exterior.  Tests have long ago proved, that it takes about 72 hours for the temperature to equalise in the hive with temps from outside and vice versa.  (longer if hive is insulated)


Correct again. The vent must be on the same side and directly above the entrance to avoid cross drafts that will rob the hive of heat as well as moisture. If the hive is slanted forward, the moisture will run downhill to the vent and out of the hive.  

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Some 'house' analogy would now come handy here though?  I build many a houses in my time and know all about them.  Build one last summer - all alone, despite my advanced age.  
You young bucks...  Have you ever held a 2x6x16 feet on one end, up on the roof and nail it on exact place where a rafter is called for?  I think not!  Carried 4x8 play and  over 100 bundles of shingles up the ladder, alone?  Not many I bet.  Do it when you aproach 70?  Than we will talk some more...

For this "door&chimney" would have to be like this:  Open door = (bottom hive entrance.  
Plus: Fireplace/flue scenario?  
That open flue would have to be directly above the open door to resemble real hive conditions!  Than the draft would go straight up and gently draw with it the moist and dead air from the house.  
Not across the whole house, from the main door, if only open a crack, and to the fireplace, wherever that may be?  That would be deadly scenario, both, for people (in winter) and most certainly for bees - anytime for them!

Meaning improper or careless location of the vent can doom the hive.  If you want to grow mold and ruin your ceiling remove the vents from the attic.   
For the bees, in today's world, a vent is necessary to allow the foul mix of chemicals to escape from the hive or  let them die from asphyxiation.  We can't live in a house full of natural gas or C2

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Thomas?  Didn't I tell you that people don't read and if they do, it is only what interests them - they only pick the stuff that gets surely stuck in their craw?

If you only read one book about bees you are bound to repeat the experience of the person who wrote the book.  Read several books and you find out there's several points of view, and you also have a larger cache of knowledge from which to draw conclusions when something goes wrong (and it well).  The contents of this forum is akin to a 3rd volume to go with "The Hive and The Honey Bee" and "The ABC & XYZ of Beekeeping."  Use it, Heed it, consult it frequently.

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Anyway, don't you people fret no more, I will not disturb your piece and simple-mindedness on this forum no more.  Do as you will, for that is what have you been doing until now.  Learn as you will...
It is all fine with me.  
I did not come here to lock horns with those who are equipped so and waiting for someone who has something real and time-proven to say and share?  
I came because of the people.  I came to help those who asked for it and firstly I came to help those poor bees, cause they are stuck between the rock and a hard place and such thinkering is not helping them none.  I aim, I hoped to help poor bees, because they have no voice!  They are stuck in those ill prepared boxes and are forced to live there - not by their own design - but simply by fate.  Human hands put them in peril and human hands must help them, for they can not help themselves.  
We took that choice away from them and now they suffer!
Is that fair?
I think and hope not!
Just the other day I read, on some other forum, where someone else also gave up on free help that he selflessly offered!  At the end he said something like this:  "Have it you ways, I have no time nor inclination to argue.  Do as you will, I just pity those poor bees.  On the end it comes simply down to this: "You have dead bees - I have live ones!"

And that, my friends, there in the passing wind goes all the knowledge and the difference that  it could make.

Nobody even heeded: "Learn on the mistakes of others, not on your own."  
We, the old timers, we already paid our dues.  Nobody offered help than - like it is offered now. Free help for the mistakes that are made again now!  We went through that long ago, we paid dearly, bees paid dearly.  Long time ago we erred and we learned from that - does anybody think that we would still be around if we didn't?  Learn right, I mean. . . .

Now I go back to lurking and shaking my old head in disbelief and sorrow. . .

Don't go, you're a good mentor to those who listen and those who should.  For those who should listen, as with most newbees, a mentor much have an extraordinary amount of patience.  But good mentors are hard to find, are highly prized, and their knowledge is sorely missed when no longer available.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: BlueBee on February 20, 2011, 10:20:44 pm
Anyway, don't you people fret no more, I will not disturb your piece and simple-mindedness on this forum no more.  Do as you will, for that is what have you been doing until now.  Learn as you will...

Now I go back to lurking and shaking my old head in disbelief and sorrow. . .

Hello Trot,

Please don’t leave!  I read EVERY word you type and think you have great input.  I’m sure a lot of the silent majority feels the same way.  There are a lot of open minded people out here and we certainly value your inputs.  I’m using insulated hives like Finski, so maybe I can’t apply all your ideas, but I have still gained a lot of insight about bees from your posts.  You clearly have a real love of bees.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Kathyp on February 20, 2011, 10:48:22 pm
edited out by me because it was....witchy.... :(
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 21, 2011, 10:15:06 am
Trot and Brian, you guys (and a few others) are the reason I even come around here. Either of you would be greatly missed if you decided to stop adding your experiences with such eloquence.  

We can't let the naysayers get us down. They're stuck for their own reasons and we have to accept that its OK, or it can drive you crazy.  

I don't come here to change anyones mind, only to share what works for me and mine and to learn from 'everyone', even those I may disagree with, Robo ;).   A disagreement over methods shouldn't equate as some kind of challenge to anothers methods, not here on the web anyway, its way to easy to just shut people down and out.   Some of the 'disagreements' on this site 'have' proven very informative, but too often digress to the point of irrelevance.  Some of us should 'pretend' we are right in front of those we are addressing before typing a word.  Its a worthy exercise.

Regardless of the type of forum some will always be looking for a fight, as if beekeeping (life) were some kind of competition.  Hhmmm, ITS NOT :)

PS; (besides bee stuff my other most common ongoing project these days is building bookcases :)
, never have enough)

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: bee-nuts on February 21, 2011, 10:30:14 am
Thats a lot of valuable time wasted that could be used for more productive things like building beehives.  What a shame!
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 21, 2011, 10:42:14 am
Thats a lot of valuable time wasted that could be used for more productive things like building beehives.  What a shame!
yeh I know, but my body won't let me do too much else these days.  We're practically relatives bee-nuts (well I believe we all are actually).  Spent many years at LCO, 1st at WOJB 84-93, Drove a Hayward School bus route through the rez for 6-7 years and worked at the LCO Housing Authority for 5-6 years during the 90's).  We'll have to get together once the weather breaks and talk bees, don't you think?

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Kathyp on February 21, 2011, 11:13:54 am
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Regardless of the type of forum some will always be looking for a fight, as if beekeeping (life) were some kind of competition.

would that be like the people who insist that you accept what they say or they will take their marbles and go home?  Trot has a lot of knowledge and what he writes is defiantly worth reading.  however, he does not have the right to demand (implied) our respect.  on ventilation, i disagree with him.  that's ok with me.  it seems not to be ok with him.  
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 21, 2011, 11:18:47 am
Everybody has a right to own opinion, but, some are prety weak, to say the least and I continuously wonder what is there with this upper entrance thing that so terrifies people?  This well known concept has been around in Europe for at lest two centuries, if not more?  
Remember - beekeeping is supposed to be about bees, their needs and not needs and likes/dislikes of us, people!  Until people drop their personal opinions/likes/dislikes, bees will continue to fail.
Weak?  You are right, everyone is entitled to their own opinions,  but just because you don't agree does not make them weak.  I have no problem with people deciding to use upper entrances.  My concern is when people promote it as the "only" or "best" way.   That is exactly what you are doing by calling anyone's opinion that differs from yours as weak? If upper entrances are required, why is it that for decades many beeks had losses in the 5% range with no upper entrances?


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About failing queen?
Sure,could be?  
But, bees are to know that first, long before beek catches on, that queen is failing and they should have dealt with it?
This is also one of the problems I have with your arguments.  Bees know best, let bees do what they decide, yada yada yada,  oh, except for sealing the nest, don't let them do that they don't know they need extra ventilation.

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 The times where queens lasted 7 to 9 years are long gone.  
Very true.

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That hive was only 6 months old (first year keeper?) at best and already a failing queen?  Possible but not likely.
This is where I disagree.   Why are we hearing of so many package bees immediately attempting to supersede queens?  Let's assume they know best,  do they weigh the current resources/conditions to determine if the risks of attempting to raise a new queen outweigh the faults with the current queen?   If they raise a queen from the egg of the current "bad" queen,  is there a chance that the bad traits will be passed down?  You may disagree, but I truly believe a good portion of winter losses can be attributed to the poor quality queens that are commercially available.  Whatever the cause maybe,  whether it is propagating traits of weak queens that have been nursed along with medication,  or the use of chemical treatments that are detrimental to the queens.

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One should safely tuck away the notion about a feral hive in a tree?   Far too often I encounter such bold scenarios.  We are not talking about no feral hive here.  We have a dead and dying hives that are dropping like flies (pardon the pun) all over the world.  The answer; in a tree is so and so...  That does not help none cause we are comparing sour apples with oranges.  This is not just American problem, or Canadian?  It is happening all over and this is only the start.  Sorry, but so it goes, the facts speak for themselves. . .  

 
Why is it that folks always want to equate feral with trees?   95% of the ferals I deal with are not in trees.  In fact, they are in structures that are more similar to a Langstroth than a tree.  Is a 2x4 wall cavity of an unoccupied building with no insulation and clap board siding more like a tree or a Langstroth.   How about a owl house made out of 3/4" pine?   You can ignore what the ferals are doing, but I will continue to look to them for guidance.  They don't seem to be experiencing this world-wide phenomenon you describe.   Now maybe because they experienced great devastation a decade ago with varroa.  But that seems to point towards survival of the fittest, and not the medicated, nurse along weak bees that we have been doing.  

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Tree itself IS an upper entrance!  The trunk itself, dead or alive, is a living wick for all the moisture and ails of a feral swarm that found refuge - home in such a cavity!
Some maybe, but the majority of the tree colonies I see are more likely to have a mid or bottom entrance.   The same goes for ferals in structures (which aren't a "living wick")
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Anyway, don't you people fret no more, I will not disturb your piece and simple-mindedness on this forum no more.  Do as you will, for that is what have you been doing until now.  Learn as you will...
It is all fine with me.  
I did not come here to lock horns with those who are equipped so and waiting for someone who has something real and time-proven to say and share?  
Why not stick around and share your experiences, obviously some people agree.  Why is not my real and time-proven methods equally as valuable to be shared, discussed and compared?

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I came because of the people.  I came to help those who asked for it and firstly I came to help those poor bees, cause they are stuck between the rock and a hard place and such thinkering is not helping them none.  I aim, I hoped to help poor bees, because they have no voice!  They are stuck in those ill prepared boxes and are forced to live there - not by their own design - but simply by fate.
Although we may disagree on certain practices,  I for one am glad you are here and share your thoughts and what works for you.   I do not want this place to be a one method place.  It benefits no one.  I want multiple, and even opposite views expressed so people can make their own educated decisions.  We don't need more Lemming beekeepers, we need more beekeepers who understand the rationale behind what they are doing.  



Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 21, 2011, 11:24:03 am
We can't let the naysayers get us down. They're stuck for their own reasons and we have to accept that its OK, or it can drive you crazy.  

That is a two way street my friend.  I won't argue that bees can survive with upper entrances,  that has been proven by many.   I will dispute the fact it is required.   
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 21, 2011, 02:29:46 pm
I don't know man, I can accept that at least for some, it (it being top entrances) is/are required in order to have their bees survive.

As exampled; some have been successfully using top entrances for a very long time which doesn't say "anything" (positive or negative) about anyone Else's methods.  

The main factor I've come to believe is that beekeeping is largely a "regional" endeavor, something most KIT & Bee sellers don't even acknowledge much.  In other words, successful beeks are those who seek the advise from those beeks who've been keeping bees successfully in 'their' area the longest, its what the great majority do one could suppose.  

I've changed my methods and uses of equipment alot since I first caught this bug and I'm STILL evolving and will until I stop keeping bees.

I think that way to often sides are drawn unnecessarily, like lines in the sand.  And if anyone thinks I've done that to anyone here, then I apologize :) and will be more careful in the future, but will also call it out when i see it happening ;)

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 21, 2011, 02:35:07 pm
and will be more careful in the future, but will also call it out when i see it happening ;)

Fair enough.  We all get too emotionally involved in a discussion at times......
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 21, 2011, 02:41:18 pm
Interesting discussion, and really supports what I've heard about beekeepers as a group. :)

For what it's worth, I'm going to try an upper entrance on my hives this year.  A local expert at a recent seminar said he uses them in is area and even cited some local researcher who went with a bottomless hive for a winter to prove that air flow isn't as dangerous as some would think, and that insulation isn't as helpful as some think.  I'm sure there's a limit and at some point too much air flow is harmful, but it seems reasonable to me that some is ok.

If nothing else, it will ensure my bees always have a way out for cleansing flights.

In regards to procuring bees, does anyone have a recommendation for a good source of bees and queens?  I would "go local" but it would seem our local suppliers just get truckloads in from the south and west.

Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 21, 2011, 03:00:35 pm
If you want local, Ask around for beeks selling NUCs.  Make them promise that they're giving you LOCAL bees.  There's at least one about an hour from me, but he doesn't have any until July 4th, which tells me they are likely his bees and not just shipped North.  NUCs are great for a newbie, wish I'd known someone selling them when I sarted out.

Otherwise you may have to settle for shipped bees, of which there are several very good suppliers (and even more availability if your willing to drive to get them).  Don't wait much longer though, the push is on RIGHT NOW so put your order in.

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 22, 2011, 11:39:38 pm
An upper entrance is not required, an upper vent is.  An upper entrance provides an entrance and a vent, look at it as economy of use.
But a means of venting from the bottom is still needed (notice I didn't say required) to provide adequate ventilation be it from SBB, slatted racks, bottomless hive, or reduced lower entrance some means of air flow is necessary for the health of the hive.

In a regular beehive bearding develops quite often during the late spring and throughout the summer.  Bees beard as much to provide ventilation as it is to cool the hive due to crowding.  If bees near the entrance are watched closely it should soon dawn on an observer that some of the bees aligned along the entrance portion of the bottom board are fanning their wings to push air into the hive and another part are fanning their wings to pull air out of the hive, they are airconditioning the hive.  Inside bees are fanning air up one side and down the other in an effort to keep the hive from overheating.

Forage bees returning to the hive land on top of the fanning bees, and enter the hive, forage bees leaving the hive climb up the box a ways and then take off.  Meanwhile the bees aligned along the entrance of the hive (Often referred to as washboarding) continue pushing air in and pulling air out, circulating the air to vent the hive.

The beekeeper in placing an upper entrance/vent (hopefully leaving the lower entrance operational) makes the work of the bees doing the airconditioning less strenuous on the bees as they only have to move the air in two directions, in and up, they no longer have to move it sideways, down and out.

When the bees are heavily engaged in "washboarding" you can actually feel the air movement with your hand, both the in on one side and out the other side of the entrance.  Remove the top for inspection and the air flow stops being returned to one side of the entrance, instead it all flows up and out.  If one watches the entrance where the bees are busy fanning, they can actually see the bees on the return side actually shift there stance and begin fanning in the opposite direction than they had been.

That's why proper ventilation works, the bees are going to do it anyway, feral or domesticated, so why not help.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: hardwood on February 22, 2011, 11:49:42 pm
Brian, not trying to be argumentative but fanning and washboarding are separate events. If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

Scott
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: VolunteerK9 on February 23, 2011, 12:07:37 pm

For what it's worth, I'm going to try an upper entrance on my hives this year.  A local expert at a recent seminar said he uses them in is area and even cited some local researcher who went with a bottomless hive for a winter to prove that air flow isn't as dangerous as some would think, and that insulation isn't as helpful as some think.  I'm sure there's a limit and at some point too much air flow is harmful, but it seems reasonable to me that some is ok.
 

But like mentioned before, entrance placement doesn't really even come into consideration if you have a poor queen. I'm not sure how things were with package bees in the 70's cuz at it's peak I was only 6, but in 2010 out of my first 3 packages, 1 superseded within weeks and another never laid the first egg and turned into a laying worker hive. Bad performing package queens seem to be the norm, especially when we as beekeepers are an impatient bunch and have to have them yesterday-basically too early for proper queen mating. By all means, switch to an upper entrance if thats what you want to do, but the first thing you need is a GOOD performing queen.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 23, 2011, 12:12:03 pm
If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

Honeybee Washboarding (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjF-yIastp0#)
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 23, 2011, 12:37:49 pm

For what it's worth, I'm going to try an upper entrance on my hives this year.  A local expert at a recent seminar said he uses them in is area and even cited some local researcher who went with a bottomless hive for a winter to prove that air flow isn't as dangerous as some would think, and that insulation isn't as helpful as some think.  I'm sure there's a limit and at some point too much air flow is harmful, but it seems reasonable to me that some is ok.
 

But like mentioned before, entrance placement doesn't really even come into consideration if you have a poor queen. I'm not sure how things were with package bees in the 70's cuz at it's peak I was only 6, but in 2010 out of my first 3 packages, 1 superseded within weeks and another never laid the first egg and turned into a laying worker hive. Bad performing package queens seem to be the norm, especially when we as beekeepers are an impatient bunch and have to have them yesterday-basically too early for proper queen mating. By all means, switch to an upper entrance if thats what you want to do, but the first thing you need is a GOOD performing queen.

Oh yes, point taken.  I am switching vendors this year (as I only had one hive I need to re-start).  I think my primary motivation is the fact that my lower entrance was plugged and the bees couldn't escape for cleansing flights.  That wouldn't have given them more food, nor do I think my moisture problem was bad, but it seems like there is enough support for them and local guys using them that it seems like a reasonable way to go.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 23, 2011, 01:03:47 pm
Robo; that was amazing.  Thanks a bunch.  Nothing like moving pictures heh?

thomas
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: bee-nuts on February 23, 2011, 02:38:42 pm
I have been pretty fortunate with my queens.  I have bought most of mine through a commercial outfit near me and they have weeded out the bad apples (from what I gather) when it comes to queen rearing outfits who just are out to make a fast buck.  I have yet to have a queen fail but in mid summer I noticed a good portion get supercieded even after scraping first batch of e-cells.  Not sure if that is queen quality or something else.  I like my own swarm cell queens the best, hands down.

I agree with the patience thing.  I think you are better off waiting a month or even longer and waiting for local bees from a local outfit.  Someone local is not going to want to sell crap in his/her own back yard.  A nuc a month behind or so is still better than a package thats a coin flip.  I meet a guy who lost three of four packages last season.  Sounded like everyone who got packages in his beekeeping association from what ever source had similar luck.  He bought one nuc from me and he wants three this year.  he may have to wait a few weeks longer but a five frame nuc is like a month old package anyway as far as Im concerned.  May pay a bit more but at least you know you are getting a decent laying queen.  You get what you pay for.

T-Beek  If you want to get together over some coffee or a peek at your bees this summer, Im game.  Let me know.  Ill show you how a top entrance works, LOL Just kidding.  Im not sure if they are any better either.  I have one colony that did not get one and its seems to be doing great.
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 23, 2011, 03:46:19 pm
Brian,

An eloquent response as always.   I'm not looking to get into a debate on our differences of opinions either. Some believe excess ventilation is required and are successful beekeepers.  Some believe differently and are equally as successful.   My concern/objection, is the almost immediate write off of winter failure to moisture/lack of ventilation.  This post is the perfect example,  the gentleman admits his bees where weak all year and yet folks immediately suggested moisture as the issue.   The gentleman even states he did not see any condensation on the inner cover when he checked them a few weeks ago.     

It just is mind boggling to me that folks can't look past ventilation as the cause and consider queen failure.   We are seeing package bees supercedure in epidemic proportions and commercial queens not even lasting an entire season.   All the ventilation in the world ain't going to save a weak or failing colony.

An upper entrance is not required, an upper vent is.  An upper entrance provides an entrance and a vent, look at it as economy of use.
Most of my hives have zero upper ventilation and are doing fine, while I have heard reports of others in my area already claiming 75-80% loss.  I do consider it an economy of use. My well insulated hives help the bees retain heat and they use ~25-30% stores compared to my other hives.   The retained heat also allows them to build up quicker in the spring. I can't imagine anyone debating the fact that warmth allows the bees to cover more brood.
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In a regular beehive bearding develops quite often during the late spring and throughout the summer.  Bees beard as much to provide ventilation as it is to cool the hive due to crowding.  If bees near the entrance are watched closely it should soon dawn on an observer that some of the bees aligned along the entrance portion of the bottom board are fanning their wings to push air into the hive and another part are fanning their wings to pull air out of the hive, they are airconditioning the hive.  Inside bees are fanning air up one side and down the other in an effort to keep the hive from overheating.

Forage bees returning to the hive land on top of the fanning bees, and enter the hive, forage bees leaving the hive climb up the box a ways and then take off.  Meanwhile the bees aligned along the entrance of the hive (Often referred to as washboarding) continue pushing air in and pulling air out, circulating the air to vent the hive.

Around here, air conditioning refers to more than just moving air,  but also removing humidity from the air you are displacing with.   The general consensus seems to be that the more air that moves through the hive,  the easier it is for the nectar to ripen.   Yet Ed Clarke in "Constructive Beekeeping" does the math to show that if the bees had to rely of ventilation only,  you would see fog coming out of the entrance and they would need a ridiculous amount of air exchanges per hour.  His hypothesis is that they rely much more on condensation than evaporation.

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The beekeeper in placing an upper entrance/vent (hopefully leaving the lower entrance operational) makes the work of the bees doing the airconditioning less strenuous on the bees as they only have to move the air in two directions, in and up, they no longer have to move it sideways, down and out.

I don't want to get into the beekeeper's will verses the bee's will again,  but I still can't overlook the fact that when given a choice, it seems that bees prefer a closed cavity over an open one.  Why would that be if ventilation is so critical to them?
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 23, 2011, 03:49:07 pm
I meet a guy who lost three of four packages last season.  Sounded like everyone who got packages in his beekeeping association from what ever source had similar luck. 

Bee-nut,  this is not isolated to just your area,  seems like their are similar reports from all over the country.    This is why I believe queen quality is a bigger issue than most what to admit.

Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: TwiceOnSundays on February 23, 2011, 04:43:25 pm
Brian,

An eloquent response as always.   I'm not looking to get into a debate on our differences of opinions either. Some believe excess ventilation is required and are successful beekeepers.  Some believe differently and are equally as successful.   My concern/objection, is the almost immediate write off of winter failure to moisture/lack of ventilation.  This post is the perfect example,  the gentleman admits his bees where weak all year and yet folks immediately suggested moisture as the issue.   The gentleman even states he did not see any condensation on the inner cover when he checked them a few weeks ago.     

Im very uncomfortable being referred to as "The gentleman"

From what I've gathered by the reponses, had I a moisture problem it would have been more apparent.  I have one of those plastic bottom boards that's pitched to the center and has ventilation on the bottom, and the tray didn't have excess water in it.  I'm still a little worried about the small amount of what appears to be mold on one frame though.

I was more concerned about the smell and the brownish gunk.  And it seems reasonable that freshly deceased bees smell, and that if my entrance was closed it was a matter of "when ya gotta go..." which im sure didn't help anything.  But at the end of the day, they ran out of food and I failed to take enough action early.  Im still going with an upper entrance, but that wouldn't have saved them.

It's still my fault (or at least partially my fault, they may have been doomed from the beginning), but im committed to learning and not repeating when I can.

I'm grateful for all the opinions and feedback
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Robo on February 23, 2011, 04:49:01 pm
Im very uncomfortable being referred to as "The gentleman"

I'm being polite and giving you the benefit of the doubt :-P

I must admit, when I read your response, I had an "Oh Sh-t" moment and quickly scurried to find your gender.   :-D
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: Brian D. Bray on February 24, 2011, 12:16:14 am
Brian, not trying to be argumentative but fanning and washboarding are separate events. If I understand the definition of washboarding (pretty sure I do) I've never seen a bee beating it's wings as in fanning at the same time...just moving back and forth with the occasional flip of the wing.

Scott

I shouldn't post when I've got a raging migraine.  In my mind I was trying to distinguish between fanning and washboarding and ended up confusing the two and looking like and idiot (my word, not anyone else's).

Robo:
I don't disagree that beekeeping without ventilation can be successful, in fact I believe I described what bees do when the lack of equipment ventilation is present.
Quote
If bees near the entrance are watched closely it should soon dawn on an observer that some of the bees aligned along the entrance portion of the bottom board are fanning their wings to push air into the hive and another part are fanning their wings to pull air out of the hive, they are airconditioning the hive.  Inside bees are fanning air up one side and down the other in an effort to keep the hive from overheating.
My point is that providing ventilation makes it easier on both the bees and the beekeeper.  I try very hard not to say things have to been done they way I do them.  I will, however post what I believe is the best way to keep bees, readers can take it or leave it.  Also, I will often post answers to questions to methods I don't believe in, so that the requesting beekeeper has an understanding and appropriate answer to his question.   

There are as many correct ways to keep bees as there are incorrect ways. The best any of more experienced beekeepers on this forum can expect is to pontificate what we've learned from our experience and let those who read heed or disregard that experience as they desire.  I'm in a unique position, I had a mentor who began keeping bees in the late 1890's attempt to teach me eavery thing he learned in over 60 years of beekeeping, to that I've added what I've learned in over 50 years of beekeeping.   
I'm still learning, experimenting, and changing the way I do things as a result, Why should I ask anymore of those that read my posts?
Title: Re: Help diagnose a lost hive
Post by: T Beek on February 24, 2011, 06:42:17 am
Right On Brian!!!!  I try to stay off this thing when in too much pain (or medicated) ;)

thomas