Is this ok to do?

[Grid]

I have a nuc coming on Monday.  Yay!

As some of you may recall, I also have another hive that is maybe queenless, maybe a chronically virgin queen, but I'm not sure.

In order to avoid killing another hive (my 'queenless' hive got that way by my starting Formic Acid treatment, and doing a shakeout of my first maybe queenless hive), my plan is to install them in a deep, and then leave them alone!  (Yay, he can be taught!).

However, after a week, I'm thinking of moving my 'queenless' hive some distance away, hoping that the foragers will join the new hive's ranks.  I could do a newspaper combine, but I don't know/trust what's in my 'queenless' hive, and I do NOT want to mess up my new one.

Since I may have killed my last hive by a shakeout - something I thought was a good idea - I want to get feedback on this idea before I proceed.  Good idea?  Leave everything alone once the nuc is installed?  Something else?

Thanks in advance!
Grid.

[Ollie]

Pretty sure you can combine both hive doing with the news paper, but wait untill the new package has the queen laying eggs, otherwise, the laying workers will fill any suitable clean cell. Also the pheromone given off by fertilized eggs will stop the workers from wanting to lay eggs.

[Michael Bush]

There is a simple solution to every laying worker/queen problem.  It's a frame of open brood and eggs every week for three weeks.  It's the "take two asprin and call me in the morning" thing.  It will cure almost any queen ills.  The bees if they are unhappy with an existing queen will raise a new one.  Laying workers will be supressed by the presence of open worker brood which will allow the others to raise a new queen.  If you have a drone layer, odds are they will sense that and replace her now that they have the resources.  Nothing is as foolproof as this method.  It doesn't interfere if they have already replaced the queen but the new virgin isn't laying yet (the most common senario in what a beekeeper thinks is queenlessness), it will cure laying workers, it will set things in the hive to rights and give them the resources to resolve whatever the issue (which the beekeeper may misinterpret).  It is literally the panacea for queen issues.

[Grid]

If I had a hive to steal the frames of eggs from, I'd be all over that.  I fixed a LW hive last year that way - worked like a charm! - but I had a healthy booming hive to take frames from. 

A friend is willing to give me a frame of eggs/brood, but he is 1.5 hours away, and the weather this weekend where he is will be cold and rainy.  Maybe next weekend.

Unfortunately, I now have only this one questionable hive, with a nuc arriving on Monday, so my options are limited.  Probably best to just leave them alone, and once I have extra frames of egg+brood from my new hive, then proceed. 

For my education:
- Once I have installed my nuc into a 10-frame deep, when can I take a frame of eggs from them without harming them?  2 weeks?  When there are at least 2 frames of eggs? ...?
- I have read a lot of people saying that to boost a nuc's population, move away a (possibly unrelated) busy healthy full-o-bees hive and put the nuc / new hive in its place so that the foragers will return to the nuc / new hive.  Is this asking for a battle field and dead bees, or is it reliable?

Thanks as always,
Grid.

[luvin honey]

There is a simple solution to every laying worker/queen problem.  It's a frame of open brood and eggs every week for three weeks.  It's the "take two asprin and call me in the morning" thing.  It will cure almost any queen ills.  The bees if they are unhappy with an existing queen will raise a new one.  Laying workers will be supressed by the presence of open worker brood which will allow the others to raise a new queen.  If you have a drone layer, odds are they will sense that and replace her now that they have the resources.  Nothing is as foolproof as this method.  It doesn't interfere if they have already replaced the queen but the new virgin isn't laying yet (the most common senario in what a beekeeper thinks is queenlessness), it will cure laying workers, it will set things in the hive to rights and give them the resources to resolve whatever the issue (which the beekeeper may misinterpret).  It is literally the panacea for queen issues.

Thanks for this clear and excellent advice!

Grid, good luck with resolving your problem...

[Grid]

Anyone?   :)

Thanks.
Grid.

[luvin honey]

How long has it been queenless? I'm assuming you looked inside already and didn't find swarm/supercedure cells?

I'd follow MB's advice, assuming your hive isn't about to collapse from age and no new brood. My failing hive has been hanging in there for over 4 weeks now, so it's possible that yours can hang in there for a week or so that it would take to have the new queen laying. Then, you could start loaning the queenless hive the brood bars, right?

I'm a newb, but these are my thoughts :)

[Michael Bush]

Bees have little invested in eggs.  They have more invested in open brood and even more in capped brood.  If you pull a frame of mostly eggs and a little open brood it will not set them back much at all, but will give the hive with queen problems the resources to deal with their queen problems.

[Grid]

Thanks Michael.  I appreciate your help.  I have a plan now.  :)

Come on Monday!

Grid

[Grid]

LOL!  It doesn't rain but it pours.  Today I got a call from the local bee supply - the queen I ordered from them 2 months ago is in.  3 weeks too late, 3 weeks too early.   :-\

So I have this questionable hive, a queen today, and a nuc coming tomorrow.  Might install the nuc and leave it alone so I have at least ONE good hive, and then take a chance and put the queen in the other hive.

Oh well!  Not a bad problem to have, all things considered.

Grid.

[MacfromNS]

I hope it works out for you.

[Grid]

I'm leaving the nuc alone.  Installed it last night, it has 2 frames of mostly capped brood with some eggs, one frame of honey, and a frame of foundation.  I don't want to jeopardize that hive by robbing it of 50% of its brood.  At least at this point I have one good hive establishing itself.

Today at lunch I am going to go and inspect the poo hive.  If it is queen-less as I suspect, and if there is no sign of laying workers, I will try introducing my new queen in her shipping cage.  If there is sign of LWs, or the hive attacks the caged queen, I will probably do a variation of the following from Michael Bush's site:

Put a box with some empty comb on the bottom, a double screen on top of that and the old brood nest on top of that. Put the top entrance in the opposite direction. The field bees will leave the top box and return to the bottom one. After a day you have only nurse bees and the laying worker in the top. Remove them and 24 hours later introduce a queen to the bottom box.

Here's hoping.  :)

Grid.

[Grid]

The nuc is doing well.  I added 4 frames of honey and pollen to that hive, and I'm leaving it alone.  The unknown hive didn't look too bad.  No brood - just a tiny bit of capped drones - and absolutely no eggs.  Which is good.  No multiple eggs so no laying workers yet, and no drone laying queen.  I figure I could have just put my queen in there, and she'd have had a good chance, but then I would have made that double screen board for nothing.  Plus I'd left her at home and had to get back to the office as it was.

So I lifted off both hive bodies, put the empty super with drawn comb on the stand, and went ahead and put the double screen on top.  Then I put the original hive bodies on top of that with an upper entrance facing backward.  Hopefully the foragers will come home to the bottom box now.  Tomorrow, I will lift off the original hive and put it on another bottom board with a lid, and then put the queen in the new hive.

Here's hoping!

 :roll:

[Grid]

Hmm.  The bottom super had bees, but only 2 frames worth.  The VAST majority were still upstairs.  Oh well - did a normal queen intro after all.  Since I had a 2" riser there not being used, I put it on, and just placed the queen cage screen up on the top bars, attendants and all.  Some bees were exploring it, but no biting or stinging attempts that I could see, but it was only 5 minutes in.

Here's hoping!

Grid.

[Grid]

It looks like the new queen was accepted - looked yesterday, and there were eggs - one per cell standing up right in the middle of the bottom - but only on about half of one side of one frame out of 2 deeps.  I guess she's a slow starter.  My new hive from a nuc developed chalkbrood.  I had the SBB closed with the entrance reducer in on large opening with an upper entrance about 3" by 1/4".  Opened up all the ventilation and hopefully they will be ok.

The adventure continues!

[Kathyp]

if the worker numbers are down in that hive, the queen will not lay as much.  she'll only lay what the workers can care for.  be patient  :-)

[Grid]

There are a LOT of bees in that hive, but they will be older since the hive has been queenless a while.  I guess once the population of nurse bees increases, things should start hopping.  I added a frame of eggs from my other hive to help them out.

Thanks for the help all.
Grid.

[Vibe]

if the worker numbers are down in that hive, the queen will not lay as much.  she'll only lay what the workers can care for.  be patient  :-)

Not intending to highjack the thread, but I have a similar question.
If you have a couple of hives close together, and one is much stronger than the other, could you just swap their locations and let the returning workers from the strong hive reinforce the population of the weaker one. Or would the guard bees turn away fully loaded foragers?

[Two Bees]

That's a good tip about using 3 frames of brood spread over 3 weeks.  I had a nuc that didn't raise a queen when initially split.  Then, I replaced one of the nuc frames with a frame of larvae, eggs, and brood and they didn't raise a queen either.  So, I decided to combine with another nuc.  Should have stayed with the 3 week plan!   :-D