Keep feeding 7 weeks old packages? HELP!!

[TNBeeLady]

I'm in middle TN & have 2 packages started June 1.  I have been feeding them with the understanding I would stop about 4-6 weeks after installing.  But they are still taking about a gallon a week in the top feeder.  The feeders were bone dry again today, but I took them off.  Did I do the right thing?  One hive has the 2nd brood box drawn 70% and the other has the 2nd brood box drawn 40-50%.  The queens are laying like crazy.

[Finski]

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That makes any sense.

How many frames of brood you have there?
Calculated as full frames?

Feeding whole summer?


If the queen really lays like grazy, they should have 2 boxes full of brood, about 16 frames.
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[TNBeeLady]

They have honey stored in the outside frames, and the frames with the brood also have some honey stores and pollen.  So I'm not sure of a percentage.  And I guess my definition of crazy is that they have all stages of laying going on, from eggs to bees hatching, with brood frames that are being laid compactly.  And everytime I check, they are still drawing out new frames.

[Finski]

They have honey stored in the outside frames, and the frames with the brood also have some honey stores and pollen.  So I'm not sure of a percentage.  And I guess my definition of crazy is that they have all stages of laying going on, from eggs to bees hatching, with brood frames that are being laid compactly.  And everytime I check, they are still drawing out new frames.

I know very well what they do. I have had bees 50 years and I have feeded them that they make combs with sugar. But I have feeded swarms only one week, not more.
I know too, how to make maximun amount of brood to the hive. Sugar only spoils the maximum production.

I have had not such hive, which cannot do new combs when needed. They allways do them.
Making new combs is not the goal in beekeeping. It is first goal is to get much brood, then becomes much bees and bees make much honey.  

Our summer is very short to make operations.  Yield period is only 2 months.

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[Finski]

They have honey stored in the outside frames, and the frames with the brood also have some honey stores and pollen.  So I'm not sure of a percentage.  And I guess my definition of crazy is that they have all stages of laying going on, from eggs to bees hatching, with brood frames that are being laid compactly.  And everytime I check, they are still drawing out new frames.

Yes, so they do. But stop feeding now and look what they get from nature. Take full food frames off from hive.

[10framer]

welcome to beekeeping and the forum.  you wouldn't know it but everyone doesn't choose to berate new members for asking questions.
pull the feed for now and see what the bees do.  my bees haven't been productive since late may.  i'm hoping for a decent late summer/fall flow but not counting on it.
if you find that the bees have made no progress in a couple of weeks and that the stores are lower than they are now you may want to put the feed back on them.  i'm in middle georgia and i don't know how our flows compare to middle tn, but the best of it is behind us down here.
i don't feed much but starting from packages as late as june first i can see where you might need to. your goal for this year is to get the bees through winter. 
good luck and have fun.

[TNBeeLady]

Thank you 10framer for understanding my question.  Since June is 2 months later than the normal to start a package here, I was just wondering because everything I read says feed new packages for the first few weeks, and they will stop taking it on their own.   But they aren't stopping.  I will try what you suggested and keep an eye on their stores.  Thank you again!

[Finski]

 But they aren't stopping. 

Then you must continue feeding if you do not know how to stop it.

[GSF]

 

 But they aren't stopping.  

Then you must continue feeding if you do not know how to stop it.

:lau:

Where would we be without Mr F.?

Welcome TNBeeLady! I too am very new to beekeeping as well. There's plenty of good folks on here who can help.

[sc-bee]

Welcome Tnbeelady - some folks don't belive in feeding as I think you see. Some folks you have to just..... weeellllll  :-X

You will get several different scenerios and answers to the same question. Evalaute and do what works for you. It is important to look at the style of beekeeping you want and does the posters style fit yours. Loacl is important. I won't keep my bees her in the south as someone would in say Mi. Some things are similar some are totally different.

Now 10 framer give you some valid point and good info. On the other hand if my bees were drawing comb, you ahd no natural flow and I could afford to feed them, I would until the second boxes were drawn out. My flow is over and I have problems getting bees to build comb after the flow is over. They just pack the sugar in empty space.  With that said NO they will not stop when they no longer need it. They will keep taking it in, store it in the brood chambers and the queen can become honey bound with no place to lay which can lead to swarming.

But you said they are still drawing frames and the queen has plenty brood space drawn out to lay- -- correct? That is the important part do not overfeed where there is no space for the queen to lay.

[sterling]

They will stop drawing comb and slow down brood rearing without some feed. We are not in a dearth but unless you are near cotton or some other type of crop  there is not enough nectar comming for them to build up a lot. They will probably get by OK just will not expand much. We are in middle Tn not Finland.

[Farm 779]

What may be missing, is to check your pollen intake. I feed my bees like crazy, gallons per 6-9 days until the pollen begins to be consistent flowing (with caveats such as splits). I also check color for which type of fauna the pollen is coming from.

I use pollen intake as a predictor if I require hive supplements.

[sc-bee]

We are in middle Tn not Finland.

 :jerry:

Another locale thing. Do you get a fall flow? I don't so I really don't care to feed to stimulate for growth if I already have enough bees to winter and enogh feed to get them through. This may be controversial to some.  I care not to make extra bees to through the winter. For nothern climates needing bees for warmth or if you have a fall flow coming your needs may be different.

Of course for me I try and make it a no brainer after establishment and let them have what they want. Their own honey :-D

[TNBeeLady]

As a new beekeeper, I'm trying to learn.  I don't mean to ask stupid questions.  Anyway...I feel better after reading the last few answers.  Once again, I appreciate 10framers advice.  And thanks for the encouragement, GSF!  And sc-bee, yes they are still drawing comb out in the 2nd boxes & the queens do still have room to lay.  I think there's goldenrod around here in the fall, but I don't know about anything else.   And sterling, I appreciate hearing from someone in middle TN as I'm not familiar with the way the nectar flow goes yet, but I'm trying to learn.  There are no crops to speak of close by that I'm aware of- I'm in a very hilly forest area.  Is there a fall flow in our area?   And Farm 779, they seem to be bringing in quite a bit of pollen right now, from what I don't know though.  Thanks again everyone for the help.  I feel I have gained a lot by the answers you've given me  :)

[sc-bee]

Your question was not stupid by any means. Some of your answers were ........... rude as usual. Unfortunately it's like a day care around here sometimes and some folks you have to learn to ignore :-D Ask away and learn, most encourage it :th_thumbsupup:

[BlueBee]

The feeding debates are pretty mild compared to the wintering debates. :laugh:

I lived in Memphis for a time and it normally gets pretty dry down there in the summer.  It is much different (and cooler) at the Northern latitudes.  As SC bee says, you do need to take local conditions into account so local advice may be a better source to listen to.  I never feed in the summer up here because there is almost always plenty for the bees due to our cooler, wetter climate.  Down there, as long as you’re not promoting robbing and you’re not getting honey bound, maybe some feeding is ok for a package.   

[Finski]

What may be missing, is to check your pollen intake. I feed my bees like crazy, gallons per 6-9 days until the pollen begins to be consistent flowing (with caveats such as splits). I also check color for which type of fauna the pollen is coming from.

I use pollen intake as a predictor if I require hive supplements.

Finland and Alaska are at same level.

I extract honey like grazy, and you feed hives like grazy. It is July now. That it the difference when you laugh there  in Great America.

(Small point. Pollen comes from flora, not from fauna.)

Bluebee feeds bees along winter like grazy. We do then nothing to hives.
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You speak about local, but mostly Florida and Alaska are the same porriage in your speaks.


What we have common: in every country beekeepers are as grazy.
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[BlueBee]

Bluebee feeds bees along winter like grazy. We do then nothing to hives.

Especially on the holidays  :-D

There isn't much nectar in Michigan after the snow flies  :angel:

[Finski]

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You love to laugh (with) me. I give to you a good reason to laugh.

When I put my hive on balance, it had allready 50 kg honey and after that it has brought 80 kg honey in one month.

Lets continue. Me Finland, me much mites.

http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa.php?vuosi=2013&kunta=112

The brown figure tells what hive brought when it was in false swarm state. I gove to it 3 medium boxes foundations to stop swarming fever. Then I joined swarm hive and brood hive.

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[Finski]

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And if you look my writings, I have never asked help from American beekeepers.
That is the laughable difference.

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[sterling]

TNBLy,   That 4-6 week rule applies mostly to packages started around April in our area. you started alittle later then normal with a package and they will do fine weather you feed them or not. I have a couple nucs I started in May that I didn't feed and they built up fine but we had a good flow in June. And a I caught a couple swarms in June that I am feeding some now because there is not much nectar out there to collect. So every situation is different. The bees will adjust to the situation. If they have nectar or syrup they will expand the hive if they do not they will slow down. You can manage them the way you like.
For a learning experience for all of us feed one hive and not the other. In a month let us know how they did. Which hive grew and which hive stayed the same or backed down.
BTW under normal conditions in middle TN there is plenty pollen winter and summer.
Goldenrod usually starts blooming around Labor Day here in Mt. Juliet and a lot of other wild flowers do also.

[Finski]

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If bees have not pasture plants in the middle of summer, then only way is to move them to better pastures.

So I did when I started beekeeping. And I am on save way after 46 years.

I moved my first hive into the woods in 1967. I made 15 km trips with bicycle. Then I got moped.
8 years later I got a car.

I have had places even later that huge hives have got minus yield in July.
= dry lanscape, and and cliffs.


Here is my balance hive now 8 kilometres away from my cottage. It allready had 50 kg when I put it on the balance.  

http://koti.tnnet.fi/web144/vaakapesa/selaa.php?vuosi=2013&kunta=112

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[sterling]

Sugar is cheaper then gas here in middle TN and it takes gas to move hives and gas to check on them because I would have to move them to cotton fields about 150 miles away to find a good flow of nectar. There are cotton fields nearer but they spray them pretty heavy with pesticides.
I can buy a 55 gallon drum of sugar [about 400#] for $100.  55 gallon of gas is $192.50 at current prices and my truck gets about 15 miles a gallon. And I'm to old to ride a bicycle.

[Finski]

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OK, 4
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[Finski]

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Actually I live and I worked in capital city and my bees have been on summer cottage 30 years. It is 150 km from my home.
It is exatly 2 hours to drive.

It is really expencive to drive with car for bees, but there are more stupid hobbies than summer cottage and bees.
I just like it. I have here all kinds of things like 2 green houses.

- When wife says: Are you going to cottage again?
- yes, I must nurse bees

(my age is 66)

[sterling]

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Actually I live and I worked in capital city and my bees have been on summer cottage 30 years. It is 150 km from my home.
It is exatly 2 hours to drive.

It is really expencive to drive with car for bees, but there are more stupid hobbies than summer cottage and bees.
I just like it. I have here all kinds of things like 2 green houses.

- When wife says: Are you going to cottage again?
- yes, I must nurse bees

(my age is 66)

Summer cottage and bees, sounds like you have a nice setup. But I'm older then you.

[TNBeeLady]

Thanks sterling for your reply.  I appreciate the local help.  And Finski, I appreciate your posts.  I can tell that you are very successful at beekeeping.  Thank you for your input.  It sounds very nice to have your bees at your summer cottage.

[TNBeeLady]

sterling, do you know any Gardners in Mt. Juliet - last name, not profession :)  My uncle and cousins live there.

[Michael Bush]

I don't know what the flow is doing there.  It's drying up here.  If you are in a dearth and they are not built up enough for winter, you may need to feed now.  You probably didn't need to feed the last six weeks...

[Finski]

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It is really long time  to winter. Feeding with what? At least sugar does not help.

[Michael Bush]

>It is really long time  to winter.

If you have drawn comb for them to store their winter supplies it's probably too early to worry about winter. If you don't, though, they may not want to draw comb in October.  Now may be the time to get some drawn.  If there is a flow, I would not feed.

[sc-bee]

>It is really long time  to winter.

If you have drawn comb for them to store their winter supplies it's probably too early to worry about winter. If you don't, though, they may not want to draw comb in October.  Now may be the time to get some drawn.  If there is a flow, I would not feed.

Do you have a tip on getting comb drawn after the flow is over. I have tried with no success. If you catch the bees before the flow has completely stopped and continue to supplement they will draw. If not they just back fill the chamber and chew holes in new comb. That has been my experience in the dearth ridden south. Of course you are foundationless.

I you found a certain ratio tha stimulates comb drawing better after the flow stops?

[Gametracker]

Do you have a tip on getting comb drawn after the flow is over. I have tried with no success. If you catch the bees before the flow has completely stopped and continue to supplement they will draw. If not they just back fill the chamber and chew holes in new comb. That has been my experience in the dearth ridden south. Of course you are foundationless.

I you found a certain ratio tha stimulates comb drawing better after the flow stops?
[/quote]

I agree with SC-bee...I've been having problems getting the colonies that I bought established in medium brood chambers to draw out foundation in the deep supers I've placed on top of them. I started out by nadiring the new deep supers below the existing brood chambers and that didn't work, so I moved the deep above the brood chambers.  It's that black wax coated foundation and I can see some white wax starting on the cells of the foundation, but after 4-gallons of 1:1 syrup in 3-weeks...I'm dissappointed.  However, the two new swarms that I installed are drawing out foundation at a fantastic rate!  You gotta love the motivation of a new swarm to find the urgency in having to draw out new comb for the queen and storage.

[Finski]

>It is really long time  to winter.

If you have drawn comb for them to store their winter supplies it's probably too early to worry about winter. If you don't, though, they may not want to draw comb in October.  Now may be the time to get some drawn.  If there is a flow, I would not feed.

When you have the whole long summer time to rear your hive big, it is then late to start to calculate time when summer begins to slant towards autumn.

If a new beekeeper  did not have skills to rear his hives during during first half of summer, propably he is not able to do it better on late half.

I can try to rear small nucs in late summer, but at dead line I join them and I make normal colonies.

But I must say that when I started, 3 first years were mere pain.
Then I met a good mentor and he sold to me high quality Cucasian queens.

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[Gametracker]

The "Rainman" speaketh...  :roll:

[Finski]

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I just answered to amlmost same question, how to rear a nuc to a good wintering hive.

The whole idea is in this, how much bees have pollen to rear brood.

One brood frame needs one frame of pollen. It comes either from fields or it comes from stores in hive combs.


I have plenty of room in my hives, because I do not use excluder. Normally bees fill the lowest box with pollen during main yield in July. All flowers are in bloom then. In august pollen harvest is difficult, because red clower is almost only plant where they get it.

Italian bee eate all pollen stores from hives and turns it to wintering bees. So it happens. carniolan saves pollen a lot to spring.

The question is, from where the hives get their pollen. You cannot rear winter bees with patty. It is not good enough to winter bees.

If you look into nucs, they are often short of pollen because they have not history. When pollen is finish, bees eate the larvae.

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[10framer]

>It is really long time  to winter.

If you have drawn comb for them to store their winter supplies it's probably too early to worry about winter. If you don't, though, they may not want to draw comb in October.  Now may be the time to get some drawn.  If there is a flow, I would not feed.

When you have the whole long summer time to rear your hive big, it is then late to start to calculate time when summer begins to slant towards autumn.

If a new beekeeper  did not have skills to rear his hives during during first half of summer, propably he is not able to do it better on late half.

I can try to rear small nucs in late summer, but at dead line I join them and I make normal colonies.

But I must say that when I started, 3 first years were mere pain.
Then I met a good mentor and he sold to me high quality Cucasian queens.

she started these hives june 1st.  the clover you see blooming in july we saw blooming in march.  she missed the best part of our long summer.  her skills aren't the question, her situation is.  we've also had heavy rain almost every day since the middle of may.  hard for bees to work in thunderstorms even if there is a flow on.  it's been said several times that if she isn't near cotton she's most likely in a dearth.
unless she has a lot of the fall blooming variety of sumac she's probably down to kudzu whic doesn't produce much and goldenrod which i've never seen produce all that much.

[Finski]

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Sounds like fishing hobby but no water. Extreme sport?
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[TNBeeLady]

Quite a lot of interesting different suggestions & methods!!  I love to learn, so thank you!!  They did get started late, and are on new undrawn foundation, so I will leave the feed until they have the 2 bottom supers drawn out.  Then watch that there is still a flow going on.  Right now as I said, the 2nd super on one hive is around 70% drawn & the other around 50% drawn.  The queens have room to lay.  They aren't getting honey bound. They are bringing in lots of pollen.   So I will continue to monitor.

[sterling]

Quite a lot of interesting different suggestions & methods!!  I love to learn, so thank you!!  They did get started late, and are on new undrawn foundation, so I will leave the feed until they have the 2 bottom supers drawn out.  Then watch that there is still a flow going on.  Right now as I said, the 2nd super on one hive is around 70% drawn & the other around 50% drawn.  The queens have room to lay.  They aren't getting honey bound. They are bringing in lots of pollen.   So I will continue to monitor.

Good plan! You don't need to feed a lot but kinda regularly so they might finish top box. In Oct. check for winter stores if they have plenty you are good.

[Michael Bush]

>Do you have a tip on getting comb drawn after the flow is over.

They only draw comb when there is nectar (or its equivalent) coming in and there is no where to store it.  If they have drawn comb, there is no point worrying about it.  If you have a struggling colony that will need more comb and there is a flow, there is no reason to feed them.  In fact, the risk of robbing is not worth it.  If you have a struggling colony that needs more comb before winter and there is a dearth, then you may have to feed them to get it drawn.  I always feed 5:3 (sugar:water).  I know there are those who think that 1:1 will get more wax drawn.  I have not seen that it makes any difference at all.  The 5:3 keeps better and is less syrup to haul around for the energy you are putting in the hive and less work for the bees to dry it and easier to dissolve than 2:1.

http://bushfarms.com/beesfeeding.htm

[sc-bee]

As I replace comb I would like to have some new comb for checkerboarding. We have only one flow and it is from late march thru may. As you say after the flow they pack it all in the empty space. Since I run two different size boxes this means my brood space gets filled and the queen becomes honeybound.

Since I run shallow supers I can not have them draw the frames in the brood chamber, remove them and allow them to rob them out. Having drawn comb has been my nemesis in particular after I lost some stored frames to wax moth.
 

[10framer]

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Sounds like fishing hobby but no water. Extreme sport?
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kind of.  definitely a different set of challenges than a long cold winter.
my neighbor got a 3 pound package around may 15th and i checked it with him around june 15th and they had only drawn about 6 deep frames.  i caught a swarm about one week before that and they drew out a full 10 frame deep and quit.. 

 

[Finski]

. I have splended flow in some pastures.
When I made 3-frame mating nucs, the frames were full before young queens started to lay.

In another place mating nucs have quite empty combs.

One nuc has only one frame. It brough in a week 2 kg honey. Queen had no place to lay.