Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 09:02:17 am

Title: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 09:02:17 am
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It is sad to read on this from that new beekeepers are encouraged to try the most unefficient methods to handle varroa.

There are official recommendations what to do to mites. It means that great efforts have made in Europe and in USA on industrial level to avoid disasters of varroa. I had no intention to write any more here because it seems to be vain here but I cannot sleep when I read these writings.

I myself have made big effort to copy and paste and teached European methods how to live with mites. It is easy if you use good methods.  It is sad to read that  "best" recommendated methods b*.* here, and grandfathers out of date ideas are best currency here.

Sugar shaking is one how it is offered here.  " Do nothing " is another why I loosed my mind with these shamans. Some one wrote:" Start to sugar shaking when brooding has started in the hive". - What a mistake. When mites are inside brood cappings it late to start conrolling.

1) What is the meanging to give sugar bath to the hive every second week? Never heard that. At least I have not seen recommendations.

2) Sugar does not kill mites. It is only checking mites. To calculate mites all the time helps nothing.

3) How do you shake hive every two week if hive has 6 boxes? - Its is easy. You never will have so big hive if you disturb all the time hive with all kind of tricks, even if they are official.

If you have handled broodeles hive in winter, you need not give any handling before next winter.

Counting mites: Usual way to count mites is follow naturally dead mites under screened bottom. You need not shake bees with sugar.



You really have "best practice" recommendations. It is easy to follow them. It is catastrophy to beginners if first year beekeepers teaches they odd tricks.

Mite control is serious matter and not a place to invent your own wheel.  Even if you try tricks in your on hives, you should not teach what ever to other beginners which have not basic knoledge to choose. Even if it is nice to change opinions, it should be some responsibilyty what kind of knowledge you offer to other beekeepers in internet.

If you are afraid of chemicals, here is totally sugar and chemical mehtod to clean 95% mites from hive. Spring and summer is difficult time to cure varroa because mites are mostly under brood caps. 


http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html
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Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to chare information
Post by: Understudy on March 25, 2007, 09:11:40 am
Hi Finsky,

Nice to see you posting again.

I posted about not using sugar treatments while in package mode.
I don't think package bees are a cohesive enough unit or strong enough for a powdered sugar treatment. Also when you do use a powdered sugar treatment you will cause the bees to help clean one another and they do remove mites when they do that. It is a powdered sugar treament, not a powdered sugar cure.

Also you end up with very few mites if any in a small cell hive. So the mites getting into the brood doesn't really happen.

I have to admit though when Michael and Finsky both agree chances are I may need to rethink the way I handle a situation.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to chare information
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 09:18:25 am

So the mites getting into the brood doesn't really happen.


And you are ready to guarantee this. --- Even if you have a miteless hive, next week it may get new hives, or next year.  But shake hive every to week - never heard.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: buzzbee on March 25, 2007, 09:38:47 am
Good article finsky!
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on March 25, 2007, 10:55:37 am
Finsky, it is a bummer when one lays awake at night, not being able to sleep, worrying about things.  You have concern about new beekeepers being taught wrong stuff.  Your words are important, with many many years of the voice of experience and I would suggest that these words be listened to.  Some will listen, others not, that is life. 

The post on drone cell collection for mite control is a very good way.  It has been proven and is used extensively here in my country by many.  The drone foundation we buy is green, very visible in the hive and is easily seen for removal.

My hives have gone through a broodless period this winter.  I am of the high hope that the varroa levels are low and I plan to keep them this way this year.  I have learned through my many mistakes and hope to become a better beekeeper through these trials.  Best of the best day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 25, 2007, 12:18:13 pm
I have not used powdered sugar, but it has been well documented as a useful mite treatment.  Usually it's done every week for three weeks in the spring when there is little brood in the hive and every week for three weeks in the fall after brood rearing is cutting back a lot.

I, for one, have NEVER advocated doing nothing for mites.  I have advocated natural cell size.  Doing nothing will result in a dead hive, usually within two years or less.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 01:21:54 pm
Some will listen, others not, that is life. 


You are talking life Cindy.

I am talking only the information quality of this forum,  WORLD'S NO.1 Ranked Bee Forum. More worried I am when this forum deliver to first hive owners unselected information. I am talking about information delivery responsibility.

It was said to me that my opinion is as valuable as others. I have not offered opinionin this forum in varroa issues. I have tryed to transmit sure, well tested and 95% sure treatments.  And treatments are different now as 5 years ago. 

But you are dealing animal diseases and you are adult people. Think your responsibility.
This is not not competition who invents the most unusual wheel.

When you look "sugar shake varroa" from google, I se the value of detecting mites. I cannot found that it is the way of get rid off varroa.
http://www.google.fi/search?q=sugar+shake+varroa&hl=fi&start=10&sa=N

I speak veterinary information, not "my friend told me" information, nor forum information. If POWDERED-SUGAR SHAKE is mite killing metdods, where is the efficacy tests of treatment? What is the percent figure?

http://www.ext.vt.edu/pubs/entomology/444-103/444-103.html
http://apis.ifas.ufl.edu/apis_2000/apfeb_2000.htm

It is same with other methods which are not so valuble that reseaches want to consider it as method.


I hope that forum thinks over how to keep quality on forum. If everyone's opinions are valid with knowledge, nothing can save US beekeeping :-X

**********************

It was year 1977. I sold my apartment to a man who had made 10 years repairing works in Moscow hotels and other buildings. He told that Russian are nice people and it is nice to take drinks with them. But he told that Soviet Union will collapse because no nation can survive if they live like Soviets. They accept what ever result what drunken or nonskilled workmen do.  He said that 1977 and officially USSR collapsed 1990.  And  it was only world's largest country. http://www.umsl.edu/services/govdocs/hies97/e/fig16.jpg

*****************

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Kathyp on March 25, 2007, 03:07:34 pm
MB, you know i am not sold on the natural size cells, but i do have a question.

if you regress to the smaller cell size and the bees are smaller, do you not still have the same amount of room for mites?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 25, 2007, 03:13:48 pm
kathy, i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large. what you mentioned..i think that it has got something to do with varoa getting underneath the larvae in the SC-that way it dies, why does it occur more often, i don't know. and another thing, regular sized bees have a bigger thorax and chest but the legs are the same size, so she can't groom herself completely while her smaller sisters can.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 25, 2007, 04:07:26 pm
>If POWDERED-SUGAR SHAKE is mite killing metdods, where is the efficacy tests of treatment?

There were several studies done in Europe on powdered sugar.  I've seen one presented that was done at the University of Nebraska by Nick Aliano.  The results of that study were that it got rid of 70 to 90% of the phoretic mites.  The difference had to do with how hot the bees got and how crowded they were during the treatment.

>if you regress to the smaller cell size and the bees are smaller, do you not still have the same amount of room for mites?

As mentioned, that's not the entire issue, but as far as room, in a large cell the larvae expands as much as it can and fails to fill the cell.  In a small cell, the larvae is the same.  The genetics is the same.  It starts with the same egg and it grows as large as it can in the cell provided and FILLS the cell.  But the biggest effect is probably the one day shorter capping and one day shorter post capping times.  The Varroa have less time to infest the cell (shorter capping time) and less time to reproduce (shorter post capping time).
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Kathyp on March 25, 2007, 04:07:44 pm
OK, and faster developing bees would be a plus in hive build up also.  why have mites been such a problem for wild hives then?  it seems they would have been naturally resistant to the mites?

i'm asking all these questions because i do plan to experiment with the starter strips.  as a result, over time, i should end up with bees and cells regressed to smaller size?  i am not doing this for mite control, but i am interested in seeing if this makes any difference in my hives.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 04:18:59 pm


There were several studies done in Europe on powdered sugar. 

I know that. One man doctor research studies with that issue in Finnish university and reported that it is good. But no one in Finlad use that method.

I mean, if there are better and handy methods, why don't you use them?  Question is not some one has done once upon time.


MICI : have you measurements from these "i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large."  - Where you get that fact?  Can you give a reaseach or measurements?   

Many say that small cells are warmer and that is why growth is shorter. But who has measured a) temperature b) speed.

**********

I have not seen in European varroa control recommendations that sugar shaking.  But there are about ten good treatment where you may choose. I may say that European varroa treatment is ahead others and they are high quality researches.





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Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 25, 2007, 04:32:07 pm





MICI : have you measurements from these "i don't think it has got a lot to do with room. the thing is the bee developes faster, since she doesn't have to grow that large."  - Where you get that fact?  Can you give a reaseach or measurements?   

Many say that small cells are warmer and that is why growth is shorter. But who has measured a) temperature b) speed.

**********

I have not seen in European varroa control recommendations that sugar shaking.  But there are about ten good treatment where you may choose. I may say that European varroa treatment is ahead others and they are high quality researches.





.

oh finsky, you know it very well i don't have a "scientific" answer to your question.

a friend from Canada told me that, well he didn't say that they develope faster because they fill the smaller cell faster but that is my assumption. you might ask why? because he also noticed-when transfering from normal cell to SC that the SC bees have a smaller body, like i said before. well, who around here doesn't it find reasonable that development to fullfiling a 4,9 cell takes less time than to develope to 5.2?

anyways i admit, most of it are assumptions, but the do seem logical.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 25, 2007, 04:36:04 pm
>OK, and faster developing bees would be a plus in hive build up also.

And they have more brood in the same space.

Cells on one deep frame of 5.4mm foundation 7000
Cells on one deep frame of 4.9mm foundation 8400

>why have mites been such a problem for wild hives then?  it seems they would have been naturally resistant to the mites?

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm#feralbees
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 04:59:49 pm

anyways i admit, most of it are assumptions, but the do seem logical.

I have studied biology and genetics in Helsinki University 6 years. I got researcher education. What seems logical, it is not valid in real life. What is true with one animal, is not valid with another. 

In every beebook it is said that cycle of bee brood is 21 days. Nowhere it is said that varies according the size.

Bees regulate brood temperature and keep it constant.

I have seen myself that the brood cycle of queen may lengten 3 days if it is in cold super where is not enough bees to keep it warm.

I have seen quite small queens but their development is as long as bigger one's. Some are size of worker.

But here is more "wild man's " methods http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/varroa.shtml
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Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 05:05:59 pm
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If you read varroa problem in South Africa, you may se that in nature bees are smaller than "tamed bees" which produce more honey and have large size. That is result of human selection when beekeepers select better foragers.

In South Africa African bee does not have natural varroa tolerance. Wild bees are in very bad condition everywhere. Beekeepers just wait that resistant bee stock emerge naturally somewhere.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 25, 2007, 05:28:36 pm
once again finsky you are right, there's no doubt about it. and in no way is saying something is logical-a scientific approach, i agree.
BUT, finksy, do not forget SC WORKS! that's all PERIOD, my "logical" assumptions were merely doing something what we humans like to do-knowing why something works, if there are no scientist researching about it, all we can do is speculate, guess, explain it in a way that seems logic, that's all.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 25, 2007, 05:39:14 pm
if there are no scientist researching about it, all we can do is speculate, guess, explain it in a way that seems logic, that's all.

Of course you can. But I say to you Mici, think about your responsibility, how you deliver you ideas in serious mater like bee diseases?  You are not deleivering logic.

That is Jerrymac's stupid sentence "if scientist researching about " and even if it is, never mind. World is free.

Speak to goat we say.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 25, 2007, 05:48:06 pm
took it to my knowledge finsky! you are right, should have been more careful.
but now that we are talking about it, what else could be the cause of bees faster development?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: buzzbee on March 25, 2007, 11:21:35 pm
One day we may be able to use oxalic acid in the U.s.
Until then it's formic acid pads and experimentation for some.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 26, 2007, 04:18:16 am
... what else could be the cause of bees faster development?

Nothing cause faster development. In African bee genome causes faster development. It is not cell size or temperature. Crossing with European bee and African bee has development time between those two races.

I have seen no measurements, that European bees has faster developmenet than 21 days.

You know, animals and plants have biological rhytm, how they develope and it is in genes.  Human baby has same time like cow, 9 months.
Pigg has 3 months, 3 weeks and 3 days. Easy to remember. Horse has about one year.


In nature is a rule that 10 C rise in temperature causes 2-3 times faster development in biological process. Growing and fastening are different matters.  Plants's growth rises often to 25C but after that respiration of plant rises and it will be soon bigger than sugar synthesis. That is why tomatoes are expencive in the middle of summer when it is too hot in green houses.

Big fishes dive in cool waters in summer because their respiration rises too much and they has lack of oxygen.

But remember, beehive has constant temperature and bees duty is to keep it at same level.  And if you think human babies, they will not develope earlier if mother has fever. - Don't ask why........
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 26, 2007, 08:56:42 am
It's a simple experiment.  Especially with Honey Super Cell available.  Put some bees in an observation hive with Honey Super Cell (fully drawn plastic 4.9mm comb).  Note when the queen lays and mark the spot on the glass with a number or letter.  Note when it's capped.  Note when it emerges.  On 4.9mm it will be between 18 1/2 and 19 day cycle.  I've done this many times and everyone who has tried it has reported the same results.  Huber reported the same results on natural comb in the late 1700s.

All the recent experiments on time are with large cell bees on large cell comb.

It is irrelevant to bees, but I've hatched many chickens that because of inconsistencies in the incubator hatched a day early or two days late.  Hotter is earlier, colder is later.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 26, 2007, 10:02:07 am
  On 4.9mm it will be between 18 1/2 and 19 day cycle.  I've done this many times and everyone who has tried it has reported the same results. 

Thanks Michael. This is first time when I see that some one has measured that. Odly it is cycle time of Africanized bee.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 26, 2007, 11:09:04 am
ok, so you pointed out it has to do with race-with genes, well african or africanized bees don't live in colder climate from what i've heard. same results as M. bush has my friend from Canada with Italians, ok maybe he hasn't measured the life cycle of the bees, but he certanly keeps with SC and without any treatment.
and finsky, i didn't suggest it developes faster i just suggested that it GROWS as long as it has room, the sooner she fills the room the sooner she starts to develope, and have in mind, the lastest growing stage might take longer since the bees give the larva the ammount of food with which she is supposed to fill a 4,9mm cell.

i hope you don't feel like i'm teasing you or anything, but i'd be very glad if we'd discous this over and maybe come to a god hypothis.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 26, 2007, 10:17:55 pm
>Odly it is cycle time of Africanized bee.

Since they are on the same cell size, it's not really that odd.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 27, 2007, 01:50:21 am
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I went through some contries' recommendations how to treat varroa.  IT is easy to find 20 methods what to do. More are recommended in this forum.

When here comes a beginner and says :" I am getting my first bee package, what I should do with varroa" ...... So whole crowd attach on him/her and start to offer his marvellous tricks - ending to nothing. - Don't say : Shake it at once when you get it from post office". I believe that varroa level is not so big that he needs to do anything.

Start of beekeeping cannot go this way.   It is awfull mess  when I read recommendations of this forum. And I have seen that it is coming worse.

Coffee is hot. Needless to say because every one can feel it when he drinks.  It is clear that firts year beekeepr will loose his hives with this information what he gets here.

Information in English language means that it's basic is in strong experience or it is verified with researches. It is something where you can trust on.

In our language we have only one word tieto. In English languiage it is deveided in data, information and knowledge. All meaning different kind of level to "know".

We have proverb "luulo ei ole tiedon väärti". It means "suspect is not value of data".

I do not know how to live with these things but at least try. Now forum is very messy place. Take it resiously.  Beekeeping in USA has really great difficulties even in most talented beekeepers. Don't underestimate it.  If it happens to best beepeekeprs, it surely happens to beginners. Small cell or top bar will help nobody.


Sincerely Adios guys!

Old Fart
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Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Kathyp on March 27, 2007, 05:24:56 pm
Quote
Start of beekeeping cannot go this way

on this, i absolutely agree.  there is so much to learn the first year, and most of it must be learned by hands on.  if you confuse a 1st year person, they end up here the next spring with dead bees wondering what happened.

i'm not knocking the ideas here.  some are really good.  some are really interesting.  all deserve investigation.  however.....without experience, new people trying some of these methods will get into trouble and not realize it in time to save their investment.

i don't think the solution is for people to stop sharing ideas.  that would defeat the purpose of us all getting on here and talking.  maybe the caution should go to new beekeepers that they investigate ideas before jumping into trying them....unless they don't mind additional risk to their hive.....
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 27, 2007, 09:17:42 pm
It is MUCH easier to do a first regression starting with a package of bees on foundationless or small cell foundation.  What's the down side?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Kathyp on March 27, 2007, 11:03:19 pm
there may not be a downside to the regression.  the down side would be someone thinking that doing this would be the answer to their mite problem.  if they are inexperienced, they would not realize if they had a serious problem until it was to late to do something about it.

they might also want to know that the research does not back small cell for mite control...so, even if the research is incomplete and small cell ends up being the answer, knowing that there is anecdotal evidence rather than scientific evidence behind regressing to small cell should be part of a persons decision making process.

you can see also that some already find the powdered sugar treatment confusing. 

i'm just trying to point out that for new folks KISS should be the first thing thought of when dispensing advice.  it gets confusing  :-\. 
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 27, 2007, 11:14:54 pm
>there may not be a downside to the regression.  the down side would be someone thinking that doing this would be the answer to their mite problem.

Everyone should monitor.

> if they are inexperienced, they would not realize if they had a serious problem until it was to late to do something about it.

Which is what most people do anyway.  Monitoring Varroa mites is what is complicated, but it's what they need to do.  Reality is not simple.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: tillie on March 27, 2007, 11:33:37 pm
But here is more "wild man's " methods http://www.beesfordevelopment.org/info/info/disease/varroa.shtml
.

Hi Finsky,
Glad you're active again.  I appreciate this article quoted above.  I actually have the materials to make the strips they reference and if the powdered sugar shake doesn't get the bees to clean enough mites off of themselves, dropping through my SBB never to return, I'll try this herbal method.

Linda T
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 28, 2007, 01:23:41 am
I did not meant that you start to try those "herbal" methods. To burn herbal smoke inside hive is worse than normal chemicals, if you are afraid those.

If you really have too much mites think treament carefully. The is no reason to use all kinds of methods. 2 must be enough.

Here is one when you have brood. It is easy to do if you make split. http://www.xs4all.nl/~jtemp/dronemethod.html

I am not back. I just tell that stop that awfull nonsence with varroa control. Who ever offers what ever and othesr are clapping their hands. That is serious issue and you have more beekeeping universities in USA as rest world together.  Don't trust what grandfarther's girl friend told you. Animal diseases are not funny thing.  Keep on with best practice. One way is to bye every year new bees.
.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: tillie on March 28, 2007, 08:24:42 am
I was referring to the part of the article that has to do with making strips "Smite the Mite with Nutmeg" that you find when you scroll down the article -

"The ‘Magic’ Formula is:
170g beeswax
450g coconut oil (or any vegetable cooking oil)
15g essential oil (we have tried eucalyptus, nutmeg, peppermint and spearmint)
Preparation
1. Break the beeswax into small pieces.
2. Melt in a double boiler (a large pot with water containing a small pot with the wax) with the coconut oil.
3. Stir until the wax melts completely and allow to cool to 42-45°C. If a thermometer is not available, cool until the mixture just starts to harden at the surface, but is still quite fluid.
4. At this point stir the essential oil into the mixture until thoroughly blended.
Treatment
The above mixture should be sufficient for 50 hives if applied as follows:
1. Cut strips from any of the following: bamboo, Bristol board, cardboard, plastic containers, plywood, or tins. The strips should between two and five cm wide by 20 cm long.
2. On one side of the strip spread one or two teaspoons of the miticide mixture, distributing it evenly.
3. Leave a 1 cm section at each end of the strip clean to avoid getting it on yourself.
4. Push the strip deep into the entrance of the hive undergoing treatment, preferably before 0900 hours on a hot, sunny day. If Varroa is present, the first effects of the treatment (dead or terminally ill mites on the bottom board) can be seen within 2-4 hours. Presumably the hotter and drier the weather, the faster the effects.
5. After 24 hours (longer for lower temperatures), the treatment is over and a number of dead Varroa can be seen under the brood chamber. Also, and possibly for the first time, white males can be observed dead on the bottom board or groggily walking about in a totally uncharacteristic behaviour (normally his whole life takes place within an invaded brood cell)."

I could easily cut the recipe down for my three hives and do this - although I am also switching to small cell over the next year or so.

Linda T

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: ZuniBee on March 28, 2007, 02:50:06 pm
Finsky - I appreciate your information as well as info from everyone else. I think new beekeepers have to have some level of responsibility to research and not just listen to everything. What works for some may not work for others. But I do like hearing the methods everyone uses as it causes me to think more.

I read the file in your link and find it very interesting. As a new beekeeper I like the idea of having to do a little more with the drone combs because I can be facinated by the bees more. I am a little confused though.

Under "condition of the successful use of the method" it says

Quote
Strong hives: at the beginning of springtime, a hive has to have a minimum of one broodbox and one super with bees.
For each hive, 2 drone frames are necessary. You have to buy drone foundation and attach them to a normal broodbox frame. Since you are going to uncap the dronecells and thrust the larvae out, it is better to use wired foundations.


I have four hives and two nucs. I am getting 4 packages of bees for the hives and have the nucs just in case! Anyway, since I won't have the strong hives at the beginning of springtime like it says, what should I do this first year?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: buzzbee on March 28, 2007, 06:30:23 pm
Finsky,
When using drone comb can you freeze the comb to kill varroa like you can wax moths or do you have to uncap and pull all the drones?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 28, 2007, 06:39:42 pm
zunibee quoted some script that says you have to buy drone foundation. well it ain't true, if you're beekeeping in the khm standard way, all foundation that is, the simplest way is  to cut out half of a comb, and since bees on standard foundation lack drones that half will be 100% drone comb, when it's capped you cut it out and discard it/study it/ fry the drones :-D.
the freezing thing would be good if you don't won't to put bees through extra labour-building new comb everytime
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 28, 2007, 08:35:31 pm
Finsky,
When using drone comb can you freeze the comb to kill varroa like you can wax moths or do you have to uncap and pull all the drones?

Freezing is slow and laborous job.

I give 2-3 brood area into hive by melting medium foundation into Langstroth frame. Bees build very guickly drone combs where ever they have space.

When brood is capped, I cut it away and give to birds or burry into ground. In couple of days bees have new combs again in the gap.

Two whole combs are too much for drones. It essential note that only larva brood catch mites. As capped drone brood stay long  in hive and not catch mites.

Medium foundation into frame and bees make drone cells into gap. Frames are inside brood area


(http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/kuhn.GIF)
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: buzzbee on March 28, 2007, 09:43:37 pm
Would it work to cut off the bottom of medium depth foundation as well?It seems like it would but I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Jerrymac on March 29, 2007, 12:48:44 am
It should also be stated vehemently that you need to keep track of when this drone comb needs to come out. If left too long and all those infested drones emerge, you will end up with a bigger mite problem than you started with.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 01:38:03 am
I do not take headace if combs are cut or not. Drone catching is not real mite removal method to me.  It is nice that drones are in one or two place and not everywhere, because it makes harm when I draw combs from box. 

Drone areas are usefull. However bees make drones somewhere.

I look from drones, how much I se mites.  Last summer I saw very few mites in dronecombs but with oxalic acid it fell 300-500 mites from every hive.

I have total brood brake in hives and I need only one treatment. I don't even calculate them because it helps nothing.  So it has gone without problems. I have treated  mites 20 years and I am not worried anything. Mites are my friend.

***************

But 2 drone frames are absolutly too much in hive. It makes 20% of brood area and makes as much harm to honey yield as varroa itsef.

.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: empilolo on March 29, 2007, 05:30:20 am
Finsky wrote:

Quote
If you read varroa problem in South Africa, you may se that in nature bees are smaller than "tamed bees" which produce more honey and have large size. That is result of human selection when beekeepers select better foragers.

Very true. Our African bees are the "REAL THING" and, therefore, slightly smaller than your bees. Smaller cells too. Not your hyped up super bugs after decades of selective breeding and big cell foundation. Whether your larger bees are better foragers, I classify as a myth, unless you have a decent study at hand proving you correct. Beekeeping and results of forage are always local. You yourself have spread the gospel many times, that honey yield depends on forage quality.

Finsky wrote:

Quote
In South Africa African bee does not have natural varroa tolerance. Wild bees are in very bad condition everywhere. Beekeepers just wait that resistant bee stock emerge naturally somewhere.

Where did you get this fairy tale from ? To the best of my knowledge, this is absolutely false information you are spreading here. I shall try to substantiate this statement. Hope to be back on this (requested permission to publish a private communication I have received).

Finsky, you wrote

Quote
I am talking about information delivery responsibility.

I hope you take this as seriously as you advertise it. You should check your sources about the situation in South Africa, although the status there is the opposite of your personal beliefs, namely:

- the population did not collapse, both managed and feral

- the SA bees have bested varroa, i.e. they are largely varroa free by now

- SA beeks have adopted (largely) a strategy of no treatment

- Varroa being considered no more than a minor pest nowadays

- bottom line: No-one treats now, and the bees are healthy & happy.

Sorry to correct you, but that is actuality, not some old article somewhere on the web.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on March 29, 2007, 07:29:39 am
>Drone areas are usefull. However bees make drones somewhere.

Exactly.  They WILL raise the drones regardless.  Of course if you can remove a frame of them BEFORE they raise them instead of AFTER, it will make a difference in the resultant mite population.

>makes as much harm to honey yield as varroa itsef

That's my problem with drone trapping.  The bees could have been making worker brood but are sidetracked spending the resources on drone until they get enough drone.

>Whether your larger bees are better foragers, I classify as a myth, unless you have a decent study at hand proving you correct.

Anyone know of a study?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 09:12:50 am
Quote
Where did you get this fairy tale from ?

You know empilobo that I am not responsible for that what South Africa authorieties write. Don't even try. What to say about my responsibility to share information in internet, I surely manage with that problem.   I have never deliveder 150 years old methods to make nuisance to new beekeepers like you offer. - Top Bars HAH

I read this from South African report from internet. I have not visited there.  It was said that chalkbrood was unknown in South Africa and varroa brought that too with.

Here is about a year old report from SA.  It is said there that natural resistant can be achieved but that tests have made in USA. http://ecoport.org/ep?Arthropod=25630&entityType=AR****&entityDisplayCategory=full

How is it possible that ARC - Agricultural Research Council in Pretoria South Africa does not know that varroa problem is over?

The need for such knowledge has been strongly accentuated by the introduction and rapid spreading of the alien ectoparasitic Varroa mite in South Africa. It has recently been documented that domesticated African colonies are as susceptible as European colonies to die from primary and secondary infestation effects. http://dbh.nsd.uib.no/nfi/rapport/?Keys=21642&language=no

Therefore, mite populations in South African A. m. scutellata and A. m. capensis honey bees are expected to increase to levels observed in Europe and USA. http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Martin/Martin.html

2007 http://www.atlantica.fr/VarroaENG.php   Lactic acid spraying...at least
.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 09:21:39 am

- the SA bees have bested varroa, i.e. they are largely varroa free by now




How is it possible to get varroa free bees in 5 years?  Even in America africanized bees are not varroa free. They have more or less varroa.

Lets have a closer look on report from Pretoria Mike Allsopp 29 Dec 2006    
http://www.arc.agric.za/home.asp?PID=3062&ToolID=63&ItemID=3075

* Varroa destructor was first found in South Africa in August 1997
* The general belief that the African honeybee would be tolerant to the varroa mite as a result of environmental factors or other variables, and that varroa would have little impact on the bees of Africa had to be tested.

***This Working Group instituted a Varroa Research Programme to monitor and investigate the mite in South Africa, the preliminary results of which are presented here.

**In 1997 the varroa mite was to be found only in the Western Cape, but as expected the mite has spread rapidly throughout South Africa, almost entirely as a result of migratory beekeeping activities, and is now present in commercial honeybee colonies in all provinces.

Varroa mites have also been found in wild honeybee colonies where no beekeeping takes place, including the Kruger National Park, Cape Peninsular National Park, Tsitsikamma National Park and the Cedarberg.

***It is too early to draw firm conclusions about the impact of the varroa mites on African honeybees. Clearly, a large percentage of colonies are dying, but only time will tell if the African honeybee populations will collapse on the scale witnessed in Europe and North America.

[Conclusions

South Africa has the varroa mite that has caused widespread collapse of honeybee colonies throughout the world, and nothing has emerged during the Varroa Research Programme to suggest that the South African situation will be any different.

(http://galambduc.homestead.com/dove_mobile.gif)





Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 29, 2007, 11:01:54 am
hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense. first you almost persuaded me that natural cell won't help me, since M. Bush has africanized or african honeybees. with other words, using natural cells only works for african/africanized honeybees, and what you're now saying is that even african bees almost dissapeared coz of varoe :roll:

to cut it, you agreed with M.bush about african bees being  varoae hardy and now you're saying the oposit....
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 11:11:12 am
hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense.

Problem is in your basic knowledge Mici, if you don't understand. I have no problem with my sense.  :-D

Africanized bee has developed now 50 years in South America. It is another animal like bees which are in Africa. And Africa is 6 times size that of Europe. There many scutellata races in Africa.  I have just read. Never met Miss Scutellata.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Understudy on March 29, 2007, 12:52:43 pm
hmmm finsky, now your talking doesn't make much sense. first you almost persuaded me that natural cell won't help me, since M. Bush has africanized or african honeybees. with other words, using natural cells only works for african/africanized honeybees, and what you're now saying is that even african bees almost dissapeared coz of varoe :roll:

to cut it, you agreed with M.bush about african bees being  varoae hardy and now you're saying the oposit....
Michael does not have AHB. He has standard EHB that have been raised in nautral cell stups. He has no problem with Varroa.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesvarroatreatments.htm)
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesnaturalcell.htm)

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: empilolo on March 29, 2007, 12:59:24 pm

Finsky wrote:

Quote
You know empilobo that I am not responsible for that what South Africa authorieties write. Don't even try.

Sorry, mate. I do not try. I have my facts from the horse's mouth, not some overly dusty and old papers.

I do not rake around old muck, I went to the trouble and asked. I just received permission to post an e-mail I received from "a reliable source in South Africa"

e-mail dated Wed, 28 Mar 2007

Quote
Hi Mario

 We adopted (largely) a strategy of no treatment in SA; with extensive
 monitoring of the varroa impact on both wild & managed colonies. To
 begin with varroa did very well in our bees, and built up to (sometimes)
 huge numbers. And we saw all the classic varroa symptoms, including
 colony collapses. But the population did not collapse - maybe 30-40% of
 the bees dies. But those that did not die slowly recovered, and varroa
 numbers got less and less. To the extent that we now have bees (both
 capensis and scutellata) that are essentially completely tolerant of
 varroa, which is now no more than a minor pest. No-one treats now, and
 the bees are healthy & happy.

 My advice would be to let the susceptible bees die, to not use any
 treatment, and to ride out any losses that occur.

 Hope that helps

 regards

 name changed by empilolo to "a reliable source in South Africa"

this is the current status, not 5 and more years old stuff. My reliable source also included in his e-mail to me giving permission to post

Quote
Also, that I cannot handle a lot of correspondence at present so that if I get lots of additional questions, that I am likely to ignore them.

I honour this request and changed the name to "a reliable source". I would, however, like to mention that he is one of the authors of a somewhat aged paper you quoted at me previously in this thread. If any one of you is in doubt of what I post now, then I am willing to forward those two e-mails to one of the moderators of this board for verification.

On a final note, I usually do check out facts before posting. You have a lot of knowhow about cold temperature beekeeping, but I do not think you are much current about the state of affairs in Africa.

Quote
There many scutellata races in Africa.

Slight correction. There are many Apis mellifera races in Africa, scutellata being one of them.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 01:29:06 pm

not some overly dusty and old papers.

Difficult to know. That "paper" is 4 moths old from authority.

Authorieties are also difficult. I have noted that researchers, who want money for they studies, they must be postivie with they sissue and after 5 years we can se that he was not objective.

Those who sell Apiguard or somethig "commercial stuff", they write that oxalic acid is not sure and there are bla bla bla. (= dont use free stuffs!)

However, these varroa papers do not become old in couple of years.  It took 10 years in Finland that varroa went across the country. Who ever may say or write what ever even now when varroa has been here 30 years.

Some beekeepers has no problems and I have all the time.  It is merely style to impress himself.

One question is that what means no trouble. To many "bee holders" is main task that hive is alive. To me it is that it has full capasity to produce honey.

If I have chalkbrood in some hive and it destroyes 20% from worker brood, that hive is not able to make surplus. To me that hive is same as dead.  It is useless. And if someone make business with bees, business cannot tolerate even 10% dead brood.

However, what a mess.  And what can beginner do than kill his colonies and bye new ones.


Quote
There many scutellata races in Africa.
Quote
Slight correction. There are many Apis mellifera races in Africa, scutellata being one of them.


Yes sorry, I believed that they are scutellata subraces? http://www.apiconsult.com/african-bees.htm.

But who is this odd authority with his moldy papers ? Perhaps I send him a mail and ask him to check  that he takes off his automatic dating system.

 Mike Allsopp 29 Dec 2006     Pretoria
http://www.arc.agric.za/home.asp?PID=3062&ToolID=63&ItemID=3075

At least he is co-operating with New Zealand and with Argentina in varroa problem. To me from this distance he is an expert. http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=Mike+Allsopp+2007+varroa&btnG=Hae&meta=

.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: ZuniBee on March 29, 2007, 01:43:31 pm
Is this method of putting one frame of drone comb good for a beginning hive? I am trying to decide what to do with my package bees. The powdered sugar method seems like it would cause a lot of mites to be removed...from what I have read, due to bees cleaning and due to the powder filling the little suction cups on the mites feet causeing them to fall through the screen. Since there is not brood a great many mites could be removed. If I put the drone comb in the middle of a brand new hive it will surely slow down building the population for the honey flow. Am I thinking through this correct?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 29, 2007, 01:55:31 pm
finsky, maybe i lack some of the basic knowledge, no you're right i lack basic knowledge, but when it comes to varoa treatment methods, my knowledge is by faw the widest in compare with local beeks. what i lack is expirience, so with other words, i'm just an apostol,. i spread the word of different crists :-P

but AGAIN, a friedn from canada has "pure" european (italian) honeybees and without treatment, so your whole hypothesis that only africanized honeybees can resist varoa falls right into water. what you're saying is the same as some of my previous posts, assumptions based on.-..what research?

zuni, from my perspective it would be hard to say, you have to decide, go for the natural beekeeping or the commercial one. if you by any chance are thinking about putting in some starter strips you can forget about the drone comb, since they'll build it across the nest area. if for the treatment method...hard to say, quite stressfull for a brand new package i'd say, but wait till others answer you
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 02:00:47 pm
Is this method of putting one frame of drone comb good for a beginning hive? I am trying to decide what to do with my package bees. The powdered sugar method seems like it would cause a lot of mites to be removed...from what I have read,

One frame of drone comb is absolutly too much to package hive.

System is in varroa treatment that you handle varroa before next spring that number of mites does not grow so much that autumn brood will be violated. I believe that seller has treated his bees for that reason. Ask him, if you do not know.

It is vain job to play all the time with mites. That is not purpose.  There are sure methods how you may kill almost all mites . Look for official recommendations.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 02:14:56 pm
a friedn from canada has "pure" european (italian) honeybees and without treatment,

I do not know what is that case.  Half Norway is without mites.

Quote
so your whole hypothesis that only africanized honeybees can resist varoa falls right into water.

I have never said that and I have no hypotesis.


Quote
what research?
  Internet is full of good information. Read them.


We have still some snow in ground. I have in best hive 8 frames brood. That hive has African Monticola blood.  I feed them with pollen, soya and yeast 1:1:3 . That hive do not care is it winter or summer. In some hive only 1/2 frame. Life continues even here.



.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 29, 2007, 02:24:07 pm
well he is one of the "natural beekeeping crists" that i spread the information from and he has had serious mite problems. there is no doubt about what saved his bees nad beekeeping!

ok, you didn't say exactly those words, but you can not denie you impleid to it! basicly the same thing, the hypothesis is in your head-in a way!.

since you always give quotations on things, i'd expect a quote about the study how africanized bees resist mites, you haven't showed it, i assume it doesn't exist if it would, you would like i said, shown it.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 03:45:33 pm
about the study how africanized bees resist mites, you haven't showed it .

I don't understand quite what you mean.  You may yourself read reports what they say about Africanized bees. I am not needed to explaint it to you.

Question is not at all,  what I  know at all beekeeping. Question is how you manage with you hives and this forum, what you deliver with your 1 year's experience. You neet not examine me. 

I again say that world is full of "nature knows best" hobbiest. But I have knowledge enough that those people what I know, they know very few things about biological basics. They feel better than know. I don't give much value to that. Just awfull. It is vain to explain how to use chemical nutrients. It is vain to explain that chicken poo is harmfull to plants because it put trace elements out of balance.

I love nature. I have collected bird eggs, I know most Finnish birds by son, nest and eggs. I have cathered butterflyes raised their larvae, raised orchids, what ever. But to me it is highway of interst to ask question to myself. I enjoy that way. 

Put to google : africanized bee varroa tolerant. http://www.google.fi/search?q=africanized+bee+varroa+tolerant&hl=fi&start=40&sa=N

You just start to read.

Then varroa tolerant bee http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=+bee+varroa+tolerant&btnG=Hae&meta=

But pass all forum writings.

Then russian varroa resist  http://www.google.fi/search?hl=fi&q=russian+varroa+resist&btnG=Hae&meta=

So it goes.

.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 29, 2007, 04:03:28 pm
what i mean with that is that if there is a study about a thing, and you know it shows the opposite of what i or anyone else is saying, you show it.

like i said, i don't contribute with my experience, experience is what i lack, i contribute with my knowledge, the one i got from books and the internet. my managin of the hives is about to feel a 180° turn, though, not because of you but due to my own sense of precaution i will test at least one hive with chemical treatment, to make sure, AND to prove you wrong/right in the next 5 years.

now that you mention birds, i've seen the first two storks around here, one arrived yesterday the other one today, the first report of them coming was in monday :lol:. to bad they don't bring the babyes like in fairitails.


would it help to the whole thing if we went from the start? why didn't varroa spread before-naturally, is there like an obstacle, was it trapped inside of a valley so bees couldn't pass? you know more about it and i doubt there's any useful information about it, anywhere i look it just says it spreaded across "this or that continetnt in this or that year".
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 29, 2007, 04:35:04 pm
what i mean with that is that if there is a study about a thing, and you know it shows the opposite of what i or anyone else is saying, you show it.


You are really funny guy :-P
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 29, 2007, 04:52:42 pm
You are really funny guy :-P

now now, you shouldn't have said that. now you can expect to see a bill anytime soon-amusment isn't for free of course :-D
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on March 30, 2007, 12:38:06 am

Mici
.
The main point is that I do not want to those who do not want to learn. To listen provements means that you do not want to learn.
Find out yourself and work hardly with yourself to understand large things. World is free. I need to prove anything. I just want to know how things are.

I read a book "Crosscultural Communication". It was said that in Soviet people "authority means a lie" and "a friend means a truth".

Perhaps we are from different culture that you must repeat EU outhorities test resulst before you can use them. That is odd to me.

First you must set apart your hives that dones do not drift from entrance to entrance with their mites on neck.

http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Language-Cross-Cultural-Communication/dp/0130948551

.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: buzzbee on March 30, 2007, 07:06:19 am
I understand the statement of culture difference as well as what may be a generational gap.
And you will have to be careful with manufacturers hype.They will quickly say"Mine works,theirs does not"No need to prove it, just say it!
I know a lot of people are against chemicals of any kind,but sometimes the benefit far outweighs the cost.Such as chlorinated water.
Now,what are your thoughts on the formic acid pads where oxalic is not approved?
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Mici on March 30, 2007, 11:34:19 am
finsky, well said about the authority things. but what soviets have to say about (well, had to say) about their authority is just true. lately, anywhere i look i see false "scientifical prooved" information, literally ANYWHERE!!! 
may i invite you to check out the "coffe house", there's a tread about global warming named "bann the usa", by me. but, this is just one, ONE of the things.

i don't know how dependant are you on beekeeping but i actually don't need bees, never have i needed bees, but since i got them, i just want to have them, although by now i've spend ugh, too much and got nothing, and probably never will get much, but i don't care. anyway, what i wanted to point out is that i will try the whole "natural" beekeeping, if it won't go, it won't i'll step to your side. so far i do not see a reason why i shouldn't be "against" your way of beekeeping, so far what they say about natural beekeeping seems logical, and they say it works, who in the world wouldn't give it a try?
they promis less work, less trouble....

just hope we can talk about my resultst in the next 5 years ;)
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: mick on March 31, 2007, 06:24:00 am
Hey Finsky! how do I make sugar water :-D
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 01, 2007, 05:53:04 pm
Hey Finsky! how do I make sugar water :-D

Bye one headfull sugar canes, then crush and strain.

http://static.flickr.com/33/88175208_4c176ea681.jpg(http://)
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 02, 2007, 10:54:56 am
Finsky, nope, the sugar cane is for chewing on, could last for days.  Have a wonderful day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 02, 2007, 11:08:37 am
the sugar cane is for chewing on, could last for days. 

You may ask subcontractor to help

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Sugar_cane_juice_Dhaka.jpg/800px-Sugar_cane_juice_Dhaka.jpg


.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 03, 2007, 10:56:15 am
Eee gads!!!!  They crush the cane by hand???  LOL.  I prefer to chew on it.  Best of this grand day.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Eve Sylvia on April 05, 2007, 12:17:32 pm
I am new here, and I am trying to find out about sugar.So my question is: If I want to find out how to treat with sugar should I just follow all the threads and piece it together from your conversations, or is there a spot on the site or somewhere where directions are given?  I feel like I am walking into the middle and missed the beginning sometimes. Thanks again!!

( Here is my oxalic method, by the way)
RE: oxalic,  do a mite count in fall, if you have more than 20-30, fume with oxalic acid crystals. When the temp is above 50. (Oxalic is also called wood bleach at the hardware store and comes in crystals.)
Here is what I did last fall, I wonder what you all think about this:
In the bottom of an L-shaped copper plumbing tube (Bottom capped) I put 1 tsp of oxalic crystals. The open end of the tube went into the middle of the back of the hive. (The L was upside down by now, with the crystals at the bottom of the vertical leg) I sealed the entrance for 5 minutes while I heated the bottom of the tube with a torch. Fumes went in.
This spring my mite count was down to 3, so far so good, keeping fingers crossed.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: tillie on April 05, 2007, 05:22:21 pm
Search powdered sugar on this site (beemaster)

http://beekeeperlinda.blogspot.com/2007/03/bermuda-inspection-today.html
Above are pictures on my blog about how to do it

Randy Oliver's method is described on Beesource:
http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?t=200973&highlight=powdered+sugar

After the shake you put a sticky board under the SBB for 24 hours and count the mites.

Linda T
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Kirk-o on April 05, 2007, 11:37:52 pm
 think everyone who treats there bees with chemicals should list that on there label "This Honey Comes From Bees That Have Been Treated With Chemicals" And liste the chemicals
kirk-o
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 06, 2007, 01:34:01 am
think everyone who treats there bees with chemicals should list that on there label "This Honey Comes From Bees That Have Been Treated With Chemicals" And liste the chemicals
kirk-o

Yeah!  "Natural honey. Ice Sugar added every week and syrup feeded whole summer". 
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on April 06, 2007, 10:52:56 am
>I put 1 tsp of oxalic crystals...

If you need to kill Varroa mites, it works very well.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Dane Bramage on April 07, 2007, 08:02:54 am
Yeah!  "Natural honey. Ice Sugar added every week and syrup feeded whole summer". 

hahaha ~ I really love your posts Finsky!  You are the Simo Häyhä of beekeeping.  8-)

Cheers,
Dane
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 07, 2007, 08:45:35 am
hahaha ~ I really love your posts Finsky!  You are the Simo Häyhä of beekeeping.  8-)


I did not know  Simo Häyhä, but he seems to a really bad a*.*

It seems that  he was named "white death". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simo_H%C3%A4yh%C3%A4

During the Winter War (1939 – 1940) between Finland and the Soviet Union, he began his duty as a sniper against the Red Army. Working in temperatures between −20 to −40 degrees Celsius, and dressed completely in a white camouflage suit, Häyhä was credited with 505 confirmed kills against Soviet soldiers.  ...Besides his sniper kills, Simo Häyhä was also credited with as many as two hundred kills with a Suomi M-31 SMG submachine gun, thus bringing his credited kills to at least 705.

.... hmmm, family forum.... more about bad a*.*s  http://libraryautomation.com/nymas/Changjinjournal020801.html

In Finnish language "motti" is one cubic meter of choped fire wood. So they choped  Russian army to smole "motties".


.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Dane Bramage on April 07, 2007, 09:31:32 am
I did not know  Simo Häyhä, but he seems to a really bad a*.*

Valkoinen kuolema indeed & quite the hero and inspiration to many of those (myself included) involved in marksmanship (another hobby).  I thought you may have already known of him.  The analogy/metaphor was your posts are precise and deadly to illogic, like shots from a sniper (only much more funny).
Thanks for the other link.  Interesting!  The Finns (& Swiss) are an inspiration for defensive, independent states resisting the aggressive imperial ambitions of larger nations.  But I digress...

Back to topic re: v. destructor ~> do you have any advice on if/when would be a good time for formic acid fumigation springtime treatment for a new hive (built from Nucs)?  I'm still evaluating the severity of my own mite infestation (could be very minimal) and am curious - cautious to change the environment of a new hive with new queen.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 07, 2007, 12:07:31 pm
You have spring there http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/city.html?n=202

And it seems that you have not leaves on trees.  http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/North_America/United_States/photo288.htm

If you want to kknow conamination of mites, it is laborous job with formic acid. If mites are too much you se them with naked eyes on just hatched bees.

Easier you will se if you make drone zone in brood frames. Leave lowest wire gap free from foundation, of cut from ready comb. Bees make drone combs and soon you will se how much capped brood carry mites.  If you se some in pic size area, that is normal. No need to calculate them all the time. No help from calculations.
http://bees.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/kuhn.GIF

You live quite in north and you have real brood brake in winter. When you give one treatment with oxalic trickling, that is enough what you need.  Illegal or not, but don't tell to policeman.

.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 07, 2007, 12:35:55 pm
Finksy, right, the drone frame.  Last spring when I went down to visit an old time beekeeper from our bee club, he showed me his way of mite control through drone comb use.  He instructed me that this was what I was to do, to assist with keeping the varroa under control. 

He told me to take the dadant frame (1/2 size of the deep frame), place it in the 3rd frame (or 7th frame) position.  We have 10 frame Langstroth use.  The bees, like you said, Finsky, draw drone comb naturally on the bottom of these frames.  The varroa loves to lay its eggs in with the drones.  Perfect.   Once the brood is capped, the drone comb is removed and the human does whatever they choose to dispose of these critters.

This is all wonderful in theory.  BUT...I was neglectful last season and I readily admit this.  I performed this task with two of my colonies.  The black dadant in the 3rd position.  But I forgot about this in all my business in my life around the farm.  I never did remove the drone comb frame.

That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I had ever made in my beekeeping.  I probably bred the varroa mite like there was no tomorrow.  Yup, I hang my head in shame.

I applied oxalic acid to my two colonies in mid December.  We have a broodless period in our short winters.  I lost one colony and have one colony left, which is building up like crazy.  With the O.A. treatment, broodless period, I anticipate NO varroa right now.  Not to say that when the weather warms up much more and the feral hives (if there are any) become active, the varroa may get transferred to my bees.  My neighbour that keeps bees lives a fair distance away, I do not know if he treats his bees.  Another neighbour that lives within flying distance of my hives treated her one colony the same time that I treated mine.  As far as I know, there are no other "cultivated" bee colonies within flying distance of my colonies. So, maybe things will go well this year.  I am anticipating a wonderful and healthy season with my girls.  Have a beautiful and awesome day, with good health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 07, 2007, 01:11:23 pm

I applied oxalic acid to my two colonies in mid December.  We have a broodless period in our short winters. 

That situation is easy to handle. It takes 3-4 years before mite kills the hive. Treatment every year keeps mites in harmless level.

I did not se many mites in summer but in every hive there were 300-500 mites when I trickled them.  This spring I have had harms with nosema but I have so much extra hives that that bothers me at all.  Beekeeping cannot go without losses and problems.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 07, 2007, 01:18:59 pm
Finsky, does nosema kill the adult bees and that colony collapses?  I know that nosema is usually brought on because the bees cannot get outside to deficate, like in your long winters with no flying weather.  But can this colony still carry on to be at all productive, or do you just say goodbye to the hive?  Have a wonderful day and great health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Dane Bramage on April 07, 2007, 01:37:59 pm
Thanks Finsky.

Yes, we're definitely in spring time here and experienced record warm days the past two... back to normal for now.  Pears, cherries, dandelions, alder, maple, birch - all are in bloom and the pollen is so thick it covers anything left outside with what looks like a layer of curry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curry).

I'm also clear on how to determine the level of mites.  I just not have done it diligently on my new hives yet.

I would like to be as "mite-free" as possible while still being as natural as possible.  This article from 5/05 ~> Survival of a Commercial Beekeeper in Norway (http://www.beesource.com/pov/johnsen/bcmay2005.htm) seems like principled and workable approach.  Summary = mite resistant breeding/selection practises, small (4.9mm) cell brood (with large cell honey super (w/queen excluder)), organic acids.

The Formic Acid I was considering comes in pads (http://www.miteaway.com/Mite-Away_IIi/mite-away_iii.html) ~> "250 ml of 65% food grade formic acid soaked into a fiber board pad inside a perforated plastic pouch." with a sustained, "safe" release ~> "...releases enough formic acid over three weeks to be an effective dose, charging the colony environment, but not enough to damage the colony health."

My question is if this would be specifically disruptive to a newly queened hive (i.e. interfere with the pheromones, etc.,). 
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 07, 2007, 02:58:23 pm
This article from 5/05 ~> Survival of a Commercial Beekeeper in Norway (http://www.beesource.com/pov/johnsen/bcmay2005.htm) seems like principled and workable approach.  Summary = mite resistant breeding/selection practises, small (4.9mm) cell brood (with large cell honey super (w/queen excluder)), organic acids.
.,). 

Formic acid works fine in spring. Efficacy of method is something 70%.



.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on April 07, 2007, 06:08:08 pm
>That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I had ever made in my beekeeping.  I probably bred the varroa mite like there was no tomorrow.

They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit.

Levin, C.G. and C.H. Collison. 1991. The production and distribution of drone comb and brood in honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) colonies as affected by freedom in comb construction. BeeScience 1: 203-211.

>Summary = mite resistant breeding/selection practises, small (4.9mm) cell brood

It works for me.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 08, 2007, 01:22:37 am

  I never did remove the drone comb frame.

That was probably one of the biggest mistakes that I had ever made in my beekeeping.  I probably bred the varroa mite like there was no tomorrow.  Yup, I hang my head in shame.

However Michalen write "They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit."

Problem is that drone brood has londer cycle and mite can produce much more mature mites inside cell.  But that is not lethal mistake. I have drone zones in my frames but I do not harvest them systematically.  It drone frame comes to my sight then I cut it.  It is big job to unload and lod the full 6 box hive for mites.  Important is that in spring mite level is so low that you need not worry mites during summer or autumn.

However mites should be handled in Autumn and in Winter. Spring handling is only for emergency situation if former handling is somehow unsucceeded.

It is natural that everyone makes mistakes. It is so called experience.  But if you don't learn nothing after 2 same kind of mistakes, you are just stupid. Vain to blame own head. It will not come better.   
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 08, 2007, 02:09:22 am
I would like to be as "mite-free" as possible while still being as natural as possible.   

Problem is that mite has taken too big role in beekeeping. Some formulate whole system with mites: bottoms, frames, nursing procedures...When you get your first hive, shake!

I nurse mites only 30 seconds during year per hive. I like beekeeping. I have terated mites 20 years but they are not meaning of my hobby. Or live without chemicals. Nonsence. Look at your bathroom what you there.  I have chemicals in  my honey either. In Finland we do not feed hives with sugar when we have flowers in nature.

There are many worse diseases of bees than mite.

The quality of queen is he basic of beekeeping- so we get advices how to make bad quality queens by myself.  Second is quality of pastures and almost no one write about pastures.

Teen spoon full of chemical free honey. That makes chemical rich life happy.

Once my friend told that their company sells 140 different kind of car chemical. Have you chemical free car allready, which runs with holy spirit?

(http://www.rrlalena.com/images/home/homeitems.jpg)



Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 08, 2007, 10:01:03 am
.
In our country we have beekeeper shamans too. The worst problem to them is "earth rays". No one knows what is is but it is.

That phenomenom is relative to "water veins". Junction of water veins are really bad.  These kill more bees tahn varroa in our country.
If you want to avoid these evils, you should get a man who can make ”dowsing map".

Of course to make certain jobs during new moon, before or later .... I do not remember.

 



Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Dane Bramage on April 08, 2007, 09:59:48 pm
Once my friend told that their company sells 140 different kind of car chemical. Have you chemical free car allready, which runs with holy spirit?
Actually I do, two of them (http://www.frybrid.com/svo.htm).  And, regarding "chemicals", thats a bit of an over generalization as any substance has a chemical composition.  So I find it best to focus on toxicity and, in my home, you would find alcohol, hydrogen peroxide, ionic-colloidal silver, essential oils, natural soaps, vinegar, etc., as opposed to chlorine bleach, petrol-based solvents, etc.,.  Commercially produced products from here (http://www.seventhgen.com/household_hazards/) (& others similarly produced) as opposed to the one's you listed.
That being said, it is a personal lifestyle choice.  Avoidance of toxic chemicals is not my phobia, I just feel my health is worth the effort (I'm almost 40) and I actually enjoy it immensely. 

Back to bees ~ I fed my bees sugar syrup (from unrefined, unbleached organic cane (http://www.dellanatura.com/organic_sugar.asp)) and pollen patty for two days.  Now they're going to have to make due on their own. ;)  Regarding mites, I always evaluate prior to acting.  My asking questions and proposing solutions in advance is part of the learning process, not necessarily an indication of how I will/would proceed. 
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 08, 2007, 11:32:08 pm
Yeah!!! Another colloidal silver water user!!!  Bring it on!!!  Best of the day, good health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on April 09, 2007, 07:54:56 am
>>However Michalen write "They would have raised the same number of brood regardless.  You did not hurt them a bit."

>Problem is that drone brood has londer cycle and mite can produce much more mature mites inside cell.

Yes.  But if you check out the study I referenced, you'll see that no matter what you do they will still raise the same number of drones, therefore the same number of mites.  True, if you pulled the drone comb out, you might have gotten rid of some mites, but they will simply raise more drones to try to replace those.

The point is, if you forget a drone frame, you haven't made any difference.  If you remove it, you have removed some varroa and a lot of resources for the bees.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 09, 2007, 10:03:40 am
you'll see that no matter what you do they will still raise the same number of drones, therefore the same number of mites

That is surely worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!  Bees cannot math!

 You have read this before. There are differencies.  http://www.edpsciences.org/articles/apido/abs/2002/01/Seeley/Seeley.html

The big idea of foundations is that they make worker cells and not so much drone cells what they like.  My beekeeper friens also say that when they tried small cell foundations, bees teared them and made what ever cells.

What I have read is that with taking drone drood off, you may catch 50% mites. Of course when I take away capped drone brood, next week they have new larvae in that place.

I can se with my own eyes that when I give to bees zones of drone combs, they will not put drone cells here and there. They really need drones.
My zones all together are  one frame of drones. It is not much when I use to have 15 brood frames. 

If bees have not drone area to raise, they often tear new worker foundations to raise drones.

***********
In many hives chalkbrood hits in drone cells, and sometimes kill most of drone brood. In some hives whole drone area is healthy. So I need to abandon those mothers queen lines where drone are not chalk brood tolerant.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 09, 2007, 11:20:04 am
Finsky, you certainly speak your mind, speaking one's mind is a good thing in my mind, if you want to say something, then one should go ahead and say it.

Now, this sounds like using the drone comb foundation is an excellent natural method of culling out the queens that have the propensity for chalkbrood disease.  I had chalkbrood disease quite badly in one of my Carniolan packages that I hived last spring.  I requeened when I saw it was a big issue and had no further problem.

BUT, I wonder about this.  The chalkbrood problem may have been because the 4 pound package (with 2 queens) may have not been equally split into two colonies and one did not have enough bees to keep the amount of brood the bees were raising warm enough.  I will never know the answer to this question.  But when I see large amounts of chalkbrood, I will go on the pretense that it is the fault of the queen.

My old beeclub buddy uses drone comb foundation for varroa control.  I believe that he knows what he is talking about.  He has not ever lost any hives to the varroa mite, he proclaims this.  Have the beautiful, great day, with good health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 09, 2007, 11:31:29 am

Now, this sounds like using the drone comb foundation is an excellent natural method of culling out the queens that have the propensity for chalkbrood disease. 

I had chalkbrood disease quite badly in one of my Carniolan packages that I hived last spring.  I requeened when I saw it was a big issue and had no further problem.

I do not know where I am unclear. I even say too much, but use your own brains and don't believe all what I write.


In Ethiopia they first time had reseach that do they have chakl brood in bee hives. Answer were yes but disease was only in drone brood.
I have many hives that worker brood area is totally good but I find chalk brood from drone cells .

 
Quote
But when I see large amounts of chalkbrood, I will go on the pretense that it is the fault of the queen.

To select queens is only way to get rid of it. There is no drug against chalkbrood.

Quote
  He has not ever lost any hives to the varroa mite, he proclaims this. 

I have lost many.  I know lot of beekepers who has never problems. They just go fine and fast.  It is the positive way to keep bees..
But I nurse my bees and they have problems.

.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on April 09, 2007, 11:46:53 am
Finsky, understood.  Have a wonderful day, good health.  Cindi
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on April 09, 2007, 08:50:44 pm
>That is surely worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!  Bees cannot math!

I referenced a study by two respected Entomologists,C.G. Levin and C.H. Collison, and you call it the "worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!"

Seems like you have a double standard for proof.

Bees may not be able to count, but they have things that drive them to make drone comb and to rear more or less drones.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 10, 2007, 12:05:59 am

I referenced a study by two respected Entomologists,C.G. Levin and C.H. Collison, and you call it the "worst nonsence what I have seen for long time!"


Respect or not, but what is the original view point of their research. I tried to look what kind of reseachers they have made but I did not find a report where they handle the sence of brood aborting for mites.

Whole world takes drone cells away and you say that it is vain. May be it is like queen cells aborting.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 10, 2007, 12:27:35 am

The point is, if you forget a drone frame, you haven't made any difference.  If you remove it, you have removed some varroa and a lot of resources for the bees.


http://www.masterbeekeeper.org/pdf/dronecomb_exchange.pdf

Drone removal experiment in Cornell University 2003

Results: An average of over 7,000 cells of capped drone brood was removed from each treatment colony over the
course of the summer.
*On 7 October, 2003 the average mite-to-bee ratio in the control group was ...about a 5-fold difference.
*However, the differences varied among apiaries. In two of the three apiaries, differences were highly significant (P < 0.0001), being
about 5-fold in one and 10-fold in the other.
*In the third apiary, mite populations were low in both the treatment  and
control groups. The reason for the low levels in the control colonies in that yard are not known, but presumably reflect
environmental effects on population growth rates.

******************

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 10, 2007, 01:07:51 am
http://beebase.csl.gov.uk/public/BeeDiseases/ModellingVarroaTrapping.pdf


Effect of bad quality frames on mite reproduction

It is  a good hint in this research that bad quality combs have bigger percentage of drone brood than new combs. When bees repair broken or molted combs and tera cells down, they like to draw drone cells into gaps.

Bercause drone brood cycle is long, miten can produce much more offsprings in drone pupae.

"The results of the drone-trapping simulations highlight how
difficult it is to control varroa by using drone trapping alone.
Regular removal of most of the natural drone brood was very
effective, but would obviously require much more time input by
the beekeeper than chemical treatment."

"Whatever methods are adopted however, it is very important for beekeepers
to remain vigilant, as re-invasion of hives with mites from nearby
colonies can quickly reverse any effective control."

*****************

It is noticed that even if hive had low miteload, it may get huge load if it robs a hive which is weakend by varroa. Sudden collapse may occur in this case.  That happens easily where wild bees colonies exist.

.

Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Michael Bush on April 10, 2007, 07:28:49 am
>Whole world takes drone cells away and you say that it is vain.

"How big a following ... an idea has is not indicative of it whether or not it is based on sound principles or rational thought, or would you suggest that because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "
--Keith Benson
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on April 10, 2007, 01:02:26 pm
because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "


MacDonalds, food is healty and very good.
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Understudy on April 10, 2007, 01:06:25 pm
because so many people eat at MacDonalds that they serve healthy food? "


MacDonalds, food is healty and very good.
Finsky,

Now I know you are joking.

Sincerely,
Brendhan
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: carol ann on May 03, 2007, 01:30:54 am
I can't help myself. Perhaps we should feed the mites McDonalds.

Carol Ann
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Finsky on May 03, 2007, 03:22:30 am
I can't help myself. Perhaps we should feed the mites McDonalds.

Here is seed of great idea. McD uses poppy seeds on hamburgers. If they start to use mites instead, mites will become so valuable that they are soon short. Normally it happens that if human start to use something in nature, like mites, so soon we will have lack of mites.  I am sure that in this meaning small cell mites and natural cell mites will be most wanted.  - This alternative is for those who does not like vegetables and cereals.

You eat ants in Mexico, why not mites? Here is scorpion cebabs. http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/Asia/China/photo366393.htm
In picture drone pupae and drone pupae powder. Some ingrediments too, pepper like.

(http://www.global-b2b-network.com/direct/dbimage/50086048/Lyophilized_Drone_Pupa_Powder.jpg)


Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Cindi on May 03, 2007, 10:08:06 am
Finsky, eeeee gads!!!! What the heck.  Have a beautiful day, great life and health.  Cindiu
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Dane Bramage on May 03, 2007, 04:45:22 pm
You eat ants in Mexico...

That's actually a Colombian delicacy = Culonas ("big-ass ants") (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hormigas_culona_or_santandereana).  Taste like roasted peanuts.  :-P
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/fd/Fatass_ant.jpg)
Quote
Analyses conducted in the Santander Industrial University about the nutritional value of the ants (Alfonso Villalobos et al, 1999) show high level of protein, very low levels of saturated fat, and an overall high nutritional value.

Bon Apetit!
Dane
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: carol ann on May 04, 2007, 04:08:48 am
not sure this has anything to do with varroa, but I did open up my new, freebee, swarm hive today. All looks well. I will not treat unless I see mites. I wont use powered sugar.
Now that we are on to food........
I actually live in 'New' Mexico. We don't eat scorpions, (they way...to small here) or that other insect. Though I did eat ants once for. well that was when I was a girl.
Seems a bit a vegan. Pinto beans, hot green or red chili, tortillas. A fresh tomato if I can get it to grow.
Perhaps a pack rat or a robin of I was a Native. Oh wait I was born here. I haven't had to eat one yet. Though the dogs do save me from the vermin from time to time.
from my mud hut
carol ann
Title: Re: Varroa control procedures and one's responsibility to play mite shaman
Post by: Heather on June 13, 2007, 07:09:16 pm
In the UK where we have found varroa resistance to Apistan and Apiguard etc, then there has been more use of Oxalic Acid solution. This treatment must be done when there is no brood -e.g. March or  October/November (the mites live, reproduce and incubate on the larvae)-and no honey on the hive that would be sold for public consumption.
The bees are unharmed and the varroa drop is very apparent within a day.
The formula is 20grams of Oxalic Acid mixed in 500mls 0f 1:1 sugar water solution.
Trickle, with a syringe, 5 mls of the formula over each line of bees between the frames in the brood box.This should use about 55mls per hive.

Wear a mask and protective gloves as fumes are nasty. :'(
But I have treated my hives last winter and have seen no varroa this year -- so far :roll: