Feeding fondant and pollen paties in the north

[backyard warrior]

If i decided to feed my bees pollen patties will they produce more brood then they can cover to keep warm and eventually perish?
  So when i feed the patties and they build up before the nectar flow and i have to do a split im guessing i have to buy some queens from down south to do those splits cuz we cant raise queens till May up here in the north correct ????  thanks for the info    :bee:

[wildbeekeeper]

I wouldnt feed your bees any pollen patties until march 1 here in PA.  any earlier you may cause them to go gang busters on brood and they may not be able to keep them warm enough.  Splits you probably dont want to do until late april anyway.  Our first swarms here in the southwest PA are usually around the last week of April

[Finski]

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I have given to bees pollen patty 20 years. It is very evident that early feeding is harmfull to the colony.

Naturally my hives start to rear brood at the beginning of May when willow start to bloom. It is same time every year.

I start patty feeding 3 weeks earlier. So the new bees which emerge, they get fresh pollen from willows. They become good nurser bees. That new gang is able to nurse a huge amount of new brood when willow gives pollen and nectar.

The biggest hives get biggest advantage from this feeding. Under 5 frames nucs suffer from patty feeding and they get easily chakbrood. Only wise way to start up small colonies is to hive emergeing brood frames from bigger hives.

So your idea to split early your hives hits back to you what you really wanted to do.
YOu get some early queens from Hawaiji  which wintering is not good in North.

Give up your splittings and let your hives grow at least to 4 box and then make small a nuc from a big hive.
..... I know. New beekeepers are too nervousr to do that. They perefer to ruin the build up of yard than wait so right moment to make nucs.

[Finski]

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Time table of build up

When the normal colony starts new brood rearing, it is able to rear only 3-4 brood frames.
I suppose that reason is the amount of nurser bees.

When new nurserbees are ready to feed new brood, it has taken 4 weeks from start.

Again it takes 4 weeks that new nurser bees have reared one box full of new emerging bees.

After 6-8 weeks the hive starts to grow. Before that all wintered bees have died. But when this point has been achieved, the expansion is rapid. You may add every week a new box into hive.

If the colony is only 5 frames big after winter, it takes at least 10 weeks that hive is in normal stage to forage surplus.

[BlueBee]

Finski,

Excellent information as always.  It looks like you got an early start to your day over there! 

Here's another spring build up question for you: 

What is your experience of spring build up in polystyrene hives vs wood hives?

[Finski]

Finski,


What is your experience of spring build up in polystyrene hives vs wood hives?

I made US type sigle wooden boxes 1966 and I used then 20 years. I know about uninsulated hives too.

When I bought my first poly boxes 1987, they were really expencive. However I noticed that I must  enlarge  first those hives. they were two weeks ahead other hives. I bought more the boxes and found out that payed back at the first  year because they bough more honey. They started earlier surplus foraginga and they were ahead others.

Next step was 7 years ago bottom heating. The build up of big hives was huge.  But beeks hate for that when I tell how it goes. I had known  that electrict aid 40 years before I triedit myself.


The heat of the hive makes the radius of brood ball bigger. You may calculate the ball volume how much it grows when the radius grows from 10 cm to 12 cm

volume of ball = 4/3*pii* radius exponent 3

[Finski]

.
brood ball radius 10 cm. The volume is  4187

radius is 12 cm , volume is  7234... It is 70% bigger than with 10 cm radius

[BlueBee]

So you’re saying is that if the bees home is warmer in the spring, they build up faster. 

Is this because the bees can cover more brood because their home is already warmer? 

We know Thomas is against electric experiments, but he’s sleeping right now  :-D

I like electric myself, how much bottom heat did you experiment with?  7 watts? 

[Finski]

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A big hive brood ball compared to small


If the hive has a brood ball which radius is 10 cm and then we have a hive,
which has 15 cm radius in brood ball. What is the diffenrence with those?


10 cm radius volume is 4 200
15 cm ......................14 130

15 cm has  2,4 times bigger brood ball compared to 10 cm.

We may get that bigger brood ball

1) with big wintering cluster
2) with early start
3) to keep the hive interrior warm



I have had often super big winter cluster but they did not helped much spring build up. The reason was that during cold spring much of of the cluster died before it may get food and help brooding.

Then I start to give pollen patty. A big hives was able to make bigger brood balls than small.
Electrict heating made that more powerfull to feed big cluster.

To small colonies, like 5 frame, accelerating made harms. Quite often I had to destroy all brood frames because they got chalkbrood.

Isn't that strange: to help best hives. very few understand this.

.

[Finski]

I like electric myself, how much bottom heat did you experiment with?  7 watts?  

7 watt is good but 15 W is better and their price is half of 7 w.

This is one example. 16 $ per piece

http://www.reptilesupply.com/product.php?products_id=2702

I have bottom heating to my all 30 hives . I keep them 2 months in hives.

.

[BlueBee]

Finski, that was a very good explanation about how much the volume increase as a function of the radius.

I knew that from math class, but I never thought about applying that to the bees! 

I never thought of it that way before.  Thanks for pointing that out. 

[BlueBee]

Do your heaters have a thermostat on them set to 30C? 

How do you make sure your bees don’t get too warm?

[Finski]

Finski, that was a very good explanation about how much the volume increase as a function of the radius.
 

OOOORRRR a function of the heat.  I think that when some one weaks up in the morning after good sleep, he hopes that he had not waked up.  :roll:

[BlueBee]

Good point Finski, a function of heat.

You mentioned you feed pollen patties.  Do you feed syrup at that time too?  

Do you feed fondant at any point?

[Finski]

Do your heaters have a thermostat on them set to 30C? 

How do you make sure your bees don’t get too warm?

They have not thermostat.

When it is too warm, the hive starts to ventilate outside. With that heating 17C day temp is the limit when tens of ventilator are outside.

If the hive is too hot, bees go onto side walls and they leave all brood.

If you need smaller heat, you may cut the circuit with timer of cut it every hour 50% with timer.

If you put into main wire the thermostat, it may cut circuit when day temp is over 15C.

[Finski]

You mentioned you feed pollen patties.  Do you feed syrup at that time too?  

Do you feed fondant at any point?

First I even the winter food frames between hives as much they have extra food.

Pollen patty has 50% sugar and it gives that too. It is very essential that bees get water outside when they have patty. If snow covers several days the soil, all larvea will die.

I have never used fondant.  I feed strong syrup 60%  if the hive has lack of stores. I pour 5 kg sugar as syrup into combs and I put the syrup box downstairs. After 7 days bees have moved the food up.

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[BlueBee]

Finski, I’m going to have sweet bee dreams tonight thinking about all this.

Have a good day over there and let’s hope Thomas wakes up in a good mood  :)

Good night.

[T Beek]

Are either of you old enough to remember or obsorb the phrase, "diferent strokes for diferent folks."  

Thought not.  

BlueBee, You seem to be awfully concerned about my sleep habits, nothing better to do heh?  Fact is, due to chronic pain, I sleep very little.  Are you satisfied now? :roll:

Hey, I really couldn't care less about "your" bees, I've got my own to worry about.  If you want to warm your bees with artificial heat, go for it.  Just don't try to convince me that its "the way" to success.  That'd be a loosing battle.

I don't feed pollen to my bees until bleep willows are blooming, before that will likely spell disaster.  

thomas

[Finski]

.
Thomas,  in what month willows do start to bloom there?

[T Beek]

By the end of March.

thomas

[Finski]

By the end of March.

thomas

OK, it is about a month earlier than here.

[BlueBee]

Good Morning Thomas,

Sorry to hear about the chronic pain.  I hate pain. 

I hear you: different strokes for different folks.  I just find the various techniques different people use fascinating.  I like to try a little of everything.

What is a bleep willow?  I’m not a botanist, I’ve never heard of that cultivar? 

[T Beek]

That's just the mods censoring the P word.

thomas