Mite Resistance question

[chux]

I'm hoping some of you more "science-minded" folks can help me clear up my thinking on something. I have been hearing all of these concerns about us creating treatment resistant mites, and I want to understand exactly what is going on.

If I put product "A" in my hive, to treat for mites, it will kill (let's just say) 90% of the mites. The remaining 10% of the mites that survived exposure to the treatment, had something in their makeup which made them able to resist the treatment. These 10% reproduce. A significant percentage of their offspring could carry the quality that made their parents resistant to the treatment used against that first generation. 

The beek treats again with the same treatment. This time, product "A" kills 75% of the mites. The survivors reproduce. Their offspring keep more of the resistant capabilities.

At the next treatment, "A" only kills 50%. And so on...

I do not believe using a treatment causes one mite to survive and be resistant to the treatment next time. We are killing off the non-resistant mites. The survivors are resistant. They reproduce, causing the resistance qualities of the population to shift in that direction.

This is why those who do treat, need to alternate treatments. A mite who is resistant to "A" this time, will have offspring that may not be as resistant to "B" next time.

If my thought process is mostly accurate, those who treat year after year with the same treatment are not creating a super mite. They are simply creating a larger population for whom treatment "A" is no longer effective. But treatment "B" would be effective.

Those who do not treat, are letting the mite population drift in whatever direction it will. Let the bees handle it. And that may bee the best option in the long haul, depending on several variables.

Is my thinking on this sound??? What am I missing? 

[Jim134]

IMHO
  When you get tired of managing  mites and want to start managing honeybees..
 I would suggest you go to certified Russian Queens.


             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[chux]

IMHO
  When you get tired of managing  mites and want to start managing honeybees..
 I would suggest you go to certified Russian Queens.

If I ever buy more bees, I may do that. I started 3 years ago, buying one package of Italians. They failed within 2 months. I now have 33 hives. All from swarms and cutouts. I have been treating most of my hives. Thinking about setting up a treatment free yard next spring. Russians might bee a possibility for a few hives, at least.

[Jim134]

Just remember there are only about 10 or 12 certified breeders in the USA for Russian queen bees. Most likely other people do sell hybrids but who knows. The only ones that have to be DNA tested all the time are the ones that belong to the Russian Queen Association. Just remember these are not your grandfather's bees. There is a big difference between Italians and Russians.






                             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 

[OldMech]

   The problem is usually not compounded that fast. often, treatments get placed on the hive that are supposed to be IN the hive a prescribed amount of time...  but, one thing leads to another, and the strips or treatments do not get removed.. over time the effectiveness weakens, and mites get a non lethal dose of that treatment.
   Your scenario is correct, add to it my scenario. Some of those mites that got the non lethal dose become "more" resistant, and it adds to the resistance build up...
   Try Oxalic Acid Vapor if it is approved where you live for use. You wont be disappointed!

[chux]

   The problem is usually not compounded that fast. often, treatments get placed on the hive that are supposed to be IN the hive a prescribed amount of time...  but, one thing leads to another, and the strips or treatments do not get removed.. over time the effectiveness weakens, and mites get a non lethal dose of that treatment.
   Your scenario is correct, add to it my scenario. Some of those mites that got the non lethal dose become "more" resistant, and it adds to the resistance build up...
   Try Oxalic Acid Vapor if it is approved where you live for use. You wont be disappointed!

A non-lethal dose!!! Do you know of any studies that discuss the way a non-lethal dose causes an individual to gain resistance to a stronger dose? Hmm. Oh, vaccines do that for us, don't they? Hadn't thought of that. Thanks, oldmech. If we are going to treat, we had better follow the labeling instructions, and we had better alternate those treatments that do not kill 100% of the mites it comes into contact with.

Did I read you right in another post, that OAV kills 100% that it contacts?
 

[biggraham610]

That is my understanding Chux. It however, does not kill below the cappings as some of the other treatments do. Thus the cycle of treatments on intervals to try and catch all of the cells open at one time or the other during the treatment span. G

[Michael Bush]

Pretty much Fluvalinate (Apistan) has not worked here for 15 years.  Cumaphos maybe 12 years.  The mites are already resistant.  It's too late to alternate.  They just legalized Amitraz and I give it a few years and it won't work.  Meanwhile we have bred super mites, wimpy bees and contaminated the wax which gives us infertile drones and short lived infertile queens.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#notreatments

How are we going to select for bees that can survive without treatments while we are treating?

[OldMech]

Pretty much Fluvalinate (Apistan) has not worked here for 15 years.  Cumaphos maybe 12 years.  The mites are already resistant.  It's too late to alternate.  They just legalized Amitraz and I give it a few years and it won't work.  Meanwhile we have bred super mites, wimpy bees and contaminated the wax which gives us infertile drones and short lived infertile queens.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#notreatments

How are we going to select for bees that can survive without treatments while we are treating?

   Well said.
   In order to create mite resistant bees WHILE treating isnt exactly right... they dont get treated, until they are beginning to crash..   When it becomes obvious that the hives i am testing for resistance are not managing the mites, and they are about to crash, they get treated and moved out of the non treatment yard.
   My Old Sol queens failed, the VSH Gold queens failed, and the local survivors I have are towing the line by the skin of their teeth. I am not sure they will make the winter with the mite load they have... but the Waynes bees seem to be handling things well so far. Another year or two will tell the tale.
   I have waited too long in a few cases, but usually manage to save them before they abscond or just die from the multiple problems the mites cause.
   The hives that are removing cappings and larvae with mites are noted as hives of interest and allowed to go without treatment until they begin to fall behind. Every year I add a different strain of resistant bees, and am seriously considering trying Russian hybrids.. 

[chux]

Pretty much Fluvalinate (Apistan) has not worked here for 15 years.  Cumaphos maybe 12 years.  The mites are already resistant.  It's too late to alternate.  They just legalized Amitraz and I give it a few years and it won't work.  Meanwhile we have bred super mites, wimpy bees and contaminated the wax which gives us infertile drones and short lived infertile queens.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm#notreatments

How are we going to select for bees that can survive without treatments while we are treating?
[/quote

From my perspective, we are not really breeding a super mite. People hear that phrase and get the idea that we are creating new genetic material in mites. Not true. The qualities these "super mites" have, have always been in the genetic pool of mites. We are simply shifting the population of mites toward certain gene "families" that were already there. We will never be rid of the mites. And we shouldn't fear creating some new type of super mite by treating, either. Whether you treat or not, you are going to have mites. They will be resistant to some things, and not to others.

For me, the argument to go treatment free has nothing to do with the shifting and changing of the mite population. This is a given. The better argument to be made is the effect treatments are having on the bees. Are we causing the bees to be weaker? Are we killing good things in the hive and in the gut of the bee? This is really the issue about treatment. Not a shift in the mite resistance.

That said...if we treat, we better follow the directions and switch treatment types regularly. My guess is that the bees that are treated will require treatment for survival. Eventually, they will crash. Those that are treatment free will survive treatment free. Eventually they will crash. Take your pick. Neither is perfect. Both have pros and cons. Both alternatives have very smart people saying we should do what they are doing.  Personally, I'm glad folks are doing both, just in case one leads to disaster.

[Michael Bush]

>From my perspective, we are not really breeding a super mite. People hear that phrase and get the idea that we are creating new genetic material in mites.

I certainly do not believe it is a matter of new genetic material.  Just a matter of selecting for the ones that reproduce fast enough and are tough enough to survive the treatments.  It's the same with resistance to the chemicals.  Some could survive them and if we treat we breed from only those.

[Dallasbeek]

>From my perspective, we are not really breeding a super mite. People hear that phrase and get the idea that we are creating new genetic material in mites.

I certainly do not believe it is a matter of new genetic material.  Just a matter of selecting for the ones that reproduce fast enough and are tough enough to survive the treatments.  It's the same with resistance to the chemicals.  Some could survive them and if we treat we breed from only those.

Isn't it possible we're "innoculating" them when they get a weak dose of something, just like we innoculate someone for influenza, measles, etc.?  I agree that in effect we're selectively breeding resistant insects,as you say, but might it be possible there is some resistance-building going on as well?

[chux]

Isn't it possible we're "innoculating" them when they get a weak dose of something, just like we innoculate someone for influenza, measles, etc.?  I agree that in effect we're selectively breeding resistant insects,as you say, but might it be possible there is some resistance-building going on as well?

If that were the case, would the "innoculation" be passed on to the next generation? If I take a vaccine for the pox, becoming immune, will my offspring also be immune? Nope. I think Michael is closer to the truth on this. We are selecting that portion of the population that was resistant anyway. My point has been that these mites would exist whether we treat or not. I believe the exception could be that our treatments may be killing other organisms that could compete with these mites, and possibly harm them.

So here's the big statement, as I see it.  The problem isn't what our treatments are doing directly to the mites, but what our treatments may be doing to the rest of the ecosystem in the colony. We aren't making a better mite. We are possibly taking away the tools bees have historically used to defeat threats in the past.     

[Dallasbeek]

Okay, Chux.  I see your point.  Thanks. 

[GSF]

Just thinking out loud, Possibly, could it be to create/breed/indoctrinate a bee that handles the mites - be done by letting the colony get close to near death and then treat them over and over again. The idea being that over time they would get the picture and see the mite as a real threat then become more aggressive toward it?

[Dallasbeek]

Anthropomorphistically thinking out loud. 

Not to be sarcastic above.  Just pointing out that I don't think bees "learn" anything intergenerationally.  Boy, lots of big words.  Maybe somebody will think I know what I'm talking about, huh?  I don't, and that's the thing, GSF.  Thinking outside  the box " (let's hope that's the last time we see that cliche on the forum) may be how we find some answers. Your thought is good, but it assumes bees "learn."

I think bees adapt, but (I think) it's not a mental process, where they suddenly realize, "Hey, we've gotta evolve real quick or that darn fool is going to kill the rest of us, the way he killed our sisters."

With respects for your thinking put loud (out of the rectangular container).

Gary

[chux]

I think you might have hit on the basic idea behind that show, "Zoo." The animals have had enough and decide to fight back.

I say let's get rid of the rectangular container and try a wide variety of options. Treatment free. Chemical treatments. Organic treatments. Different hive designs. Different family lines of bees. Something is going to work somewhere. I don't think any one answer is THE answer everywhere for everybody(As far as beekeeping, anyway).