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Author Topic: Fact or Fiction  (Read 2979 times)

Offline leechmann

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Fact or Fiction
« on: February 10, 2011, 03:03:09 am »
I was just going to ask if some of the things you hear about bees and bee keeping are really true, of if they are wives tales.

For instance, can the queen select sperm from a specific drone to fertilize a specific egg.

or, is a drone hatched from an unfertilized egg?

Does the queen measure the size of the cell with her antennas before deciding wether to lay and drone egg, or a worker bee egg, in each cell?

See if anyone else can add to the questions

Thanks. Leechmann


Offline jdnewberry

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2011, 03:20:05 am »
Great questions...  I only have one answer and one educated guess, though.

Drones come from unfertilized eggs.  That's why if you end up with laying workers, all they can produce is drones.

As for measuring the cells beforehand, I'm not exactly sure who measures the cell or how it is done, but the cell has to be measured at some point.  Drones need those larger cells and the queen has to determine that they will be drones.  I would guess that it's the queen that measures the cells, but bees are so smart and communicate so well, I might be wrong.

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2011, 04:47:28 am »
>For instance, can the queen select sperm from a specific drone to fertilize a specific egg.

No.  But the egg can be fertilized or not.  The prevailing theory is that the queen controls this.   The competing theory is that the workers somehow activate the sperm to cause or not cause fertilization. I know of no proof of either, but either way the bees decide based on the size the cell and there is no doubt drones are unfertilized eggs.  The only fertilized (diploid) drones are cleaned out by the egg police and never make it to adulthood.

>or, is a drone hatched from an unfertilized egg?

Yes.


>Does the queen measure the size of the cell with her antennas before deciding wether to lay and drone egg, or a worker bee egg, in each cell?

The prevailing theory is she measures it with her front legs.  I believe there is some evidence to support this as a queen with injured front legs often lays only drones.
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Offline Countryboy

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2011, 10:13:21 pm »
On the other hand if you clip the antennae of a queen, she will stop laying and just runs around confused.

Offline leechmann

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2011, 11:34:42 pm »
Here's another question. Can queen bees sting? How do queens kill each other? Do worker bees sting each other when fighting?

Offline hardwood

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 12:29:49 am »
leechmann.

!)yes
2)by sting usually
3)yes

Scott
"In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 01:26:15 am »
leechmann.

!)yes
2)by sting usually
3)yes

Scott
  HERES a interesting side note--the queens stinger is not barbed like the
          stinger of a worker bee-so they can sting many times in the life span-if needed - ;) RDY-B

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 03:04:11 am »
>On the other hand if you clip the antennae of a queen, she will stop laying and just runs around confused.

If you clip one she continues normally.  If you clip both she just runs around confused.

http://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#antennaeamputation

"I frequently amputated the four wings of queens and not only did they continue laying, but the same consideration of them was testified by the workers as before. Therefore, Swammerdam has no foundation for asserting, that mutilated queens cease to lay. Indeed, from his ignorance of fecundation taking place without the hive, it is possible he cut the wings off virgin queens and they, becoming incapable of flight, remained sterile from inability to seek the mates in the air. Thus, amputation of the wings does not produce sterility in queens.

"I have frequently cut off one antenna, to recognize a queen the more easily and it was not prejudicial to her either in fecundity or instinct, nor did it affect the attention paid to her by the bees. It is true, that as one still remained, the mutilation was imperfect and the experiment decided nothing. But amputation of both antennae produced most singular effects. On the fifth of September, I cut both off a queen that laid the eggs of males only and put her into the hive immediately after the operation. From this moment there was a great alteration in her conduct. She traversed the combs with extraordinary vivacity. Scarcely had the workers time to separate and recede before her, she dropped her eggs, without attempting to deposit them in any cell. The hive not being very populous, part was without comb. Hither, she seemed particularly earnest to repair and long remained motionless. She appeared to avoid the bees however, several workers followed her into this solitude and treated her with the most evident respect. She seldom required honey from them, but when that occurred, directed her trunk with an uncertain kind of feeling, sometimes on the head and sometimes on the limbs of the workers and if it did reach their mouths, it was by chance. At other times she returned upon the combs, then quitted them to traverse the glass sides of the hive and always dropped eggs during her various motions. Sometimes she appeared tormented with the desire of leaving her habitation. She rushed towards the opening and entered the glass tube adapted there, but the external orifice being too small, after fruitless exertion, she returned. Notwithstanding these symptoms of delirium, the bees did not cease to render her the same attention as they ever pay to their queens. but this one received it with indifference. All that I describe appeared to me the consequence of amputating the antennae. However, her organization having already suffered from retarded fecundation and as I had observed her instinct in some degree impaired, both causes might possibly concur in producing the same effect. To distinguish properly what belonged to the privation of the antennae. A repetition of the experiment was necessary in a queen otherwise well organized and capable of laying both kinds of eggs.

"This I did on the sixth of September. I amputated both the antennae of a female which had been several months the subject of observation and being of great fecundity had already laid a considerable number of workers eggs amid those of males. I put her into the same hive where the queen of the preceding experiment still remained and she exhibited precisely the same marks of delirium and agitation, which I think it needless to repeat. I shall only add, that to judge better of the effect produced by privation of the antennas, on the industry and instinct of bees, I attentively considered the manner in which these two mutilated queens treated each other. You cannot have forgot, Sir, the animosity with which queens, possessing all their organs combat, on which account it became extremely interesting to learn whether they would experience the same reciprocal aversion after losing their antennae. We studied these queens a long time. They met several times in their courses and without exhibiting the smallest resentment. This last instance is, in my opinion, the most complete evidence of a change operated in their instinct."--François Huber,  12 September 1791, New Observations on the Natural History Of Bees

>Here's another question. Can queen bees sting?

Yes, but they seldom sting people.  I've handled hundreds and once in a while one appears to try to sting, but I've never been stung.  Jay Smith handled thousands and says he only got stung once.

http://bushfarms.com/beesbetterqueens.htm#The%20Worker%20Bee%20as%20Fully%20Developed%20a%20Female%20as%20the%20Queen

"Again the nature of the queen and the worker is entirely different. The queen will never sting a human being, while if you think the workers will not, you come with me. As stated, a queen will never sting anything but a rival queen. I might qualify that statement by saying a queen never stings anything but a queen, or what she thinks is a queen. I was stung by a queen once but I insist it was a case of mistaken identity, for she thought I was a queen. It happened thus: I had been requeening some colonies and in removing the old queens I killed them by pinching them between my thumb and finger. I had wiped my thumb and finger on my trouser leg. A virgin queen circled me a few times probably to adjust her bomb sights then made a pin-point landing on the spot where I had wiped my thumb and finger, and planted her sting in my leg. Yes, she thought I was a queen. While greatly appreciating the compliment, I would much prefer she would show her appreciation in a less militant manner. "--Jay Smith, Better Queens


> How do queens kill each other?

Stinging.

http://bushfarms.com/huber.htm#letter6

"A few minutes after the two queens separated, their terror ceased, and they again began to seek each other. Immediately on coming in sight, they rushed together, seized one another, and resumed exactly their former position. The result of this reencounter was the same. When their bellies approached, they hastily disengaged themselves, and fled with precipitation. During all this time, the workers seemed in great agitation; and the tumult appeared to increase when the adversaries separated. Two different times, we observed them stop the flight of the queens, seize their limbs, and retain them prisoners above a minute. At last, the queen, which was either the strongest or the most enraged, darted on her rival at a moment when unperceived, and with her teeth caught the origin of the wing; then rising above her, brought the extremity of her own body under the belly of the other; and, by this means, easily pierced her with the sting. Then she withdrew her sting after losing hold of the wing. The vanquished queen fell down, dragged herself languidly along, and, her strength failing, she soon expired. "--François Huber,  12 August 1791 , New Observations on the Natural History Of Bees

> Do worker bees sting each other when fighting?

They do sometimes.  The hard shell works differently than soft skin and they don't lose their stinger in doing so, but they seem to have difficulty doing so.  They do more wrestling and hair pulling.

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Offline leechmann

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 10:01:18 am »
Thanks Michael. Great answers

Offline Robo

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 10:07:46 am »
They do more wrestling and hair pulling.

Of course they do, they are girls.   You don't catch the drones doing that.....

Sorry, couldn't resist :-P
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Offline greenbtree

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 10:26:05 am »
That's O.K. Robo, I thought the same thing! :-D

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Offline Cascadebee

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 01:51:13 pm »
For queen sperm use, the rule is "first in = last out".

Offline rdy-b

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 03:16:24 pm »
For queen sperm use, the rule is "first in = last out".
  Actually it HOMOGENIZES and is not subject to prediction--RDY-B

Offline Michael Bush

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 10:20:42 pm »
From my observation and other's, it's not all one or the other.  It gets mixed somewhat, but not completely.  I've seen a queens offspring change over time which would indicate layer, but also seen it mixed very much at any give time with the proportion more what is changing than all one or the other.  In other words over the life of the queen things such as color or temperament may be mixed but more obviously darker rather than lighter being the norm.  Then shift to more yellow over time.  Or visa versa.  if they were strictly layered you'd get just dark, then mixed, then light.  But instead you get a mixture that leans one way and later the other.  If they were homogenized, you'd get an even mix all the time.
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Offline rdy-b

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Re: Fact or Fiction
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 10:51:31 pm »
  yes but the ratio of proportion changes with every mating-so you cant expect it to be
 balanced-By no means do i think the Homogenizing creates any balance-we see this with queens
that are AI and the semen is homogenized from several drones-and drones are not limited to only one color expression with there seman -theres two sides to that coin-one thing that comes to mind is the cordovan color traight -easy to lose the traight but the bee maintains most its line-with just a lose of its gene expression -RDY-B