Splitting supers and warping lids

[omnimirage]

When I first started beekeeping, I needed supers, but was averse to the high price at the local beekeeping supply yards. I managed to find some moderately cheap wood, and built 30 supers.

It's been about eighteen months later, and a good proportion of supers are splitting apart, as show here:

http://imgur.com/a/cO6av

This is my first beehive. Every super needs to be replaced, including the lid. I'm concerned about the holes as there's a lot of heavy winter rain currently. I've established a practice of using duct tape to seal the hives, but it's not particularly effective. Another hive's super was so damaged at the bottom, that it fell apart when I tried to replace it. It seems after about a year, the lowest supers start to split. It seems that they're unable to sustain the weight of a multi-story hive. A local said that this sort of damage might be caused by these slight elevations the hives are on; causes an excessive amount of pressure on one side, but I'm unsure. Is it important to place beehives on flat elevations? Another particular concerned is that almost every lid I own is quite warped for some reason, and has gaps exposed because of so.

I've learned that the "woodsman's glue" from the local hardware store was not effective in holding together the wood for a sustained period of time. It was all shriveled up and not sticky. I used an excessive, sloppy amateur amount of glue for the most part as well. The nails that I used weren't long enough either. I've been advised to use screws instead, which I'm in the process of installing screws on all my supers, including the ones with bees in them. Screws are much more expensive than nails, though.

It's almost mid winter here, and I still haven't found a cheap source of wood; I'm left wondering what's the best way to proceed. I've been advised to build hives out of more or less freely available chip-board, simply "slap on a thick coat of paint". I feel as if this will create future, bothersome scenarios in the future, but may be suitable for the lid and/or top super(shallow supers?). I fortunately have acquired all the screws I need. I'm not going to buy that woodsman's glue again; not sure if I should look into another. I do wonder if that glue simply isn't meant to be so exposed to the elements.

Has anyone else had their supers split, and lids warp like this?

[Michael Bush]

Buy some deck screws and a countersink bit slightly undersized.  If you have some bar clamps you can use them as well.  If you don't, then make a Spanish windlass.  Tie a string rope around the box, insert a hardwood stick or a metal rod and twist it tight.  Tie another rope around the box to hold the rod.  Screw it back together.

[GSF]

omnimirage, write it up as a lesson learned. We all suffer from setbacks.

[Acebird]

The disadvantage of using cheap wood is it will warp as the moisture in the wood changes.  You will not stop this from happening.  You can limit the warpage some what by using screws.  I have argued this point many times ... glue is worthless in exterior conditions.  The shrink and swell of the wood cells will break the joints and the instant it breaks it is no more.  The screw needs to be into the adjoining piece two times the thickness of the piece you are trying to attach.  For instance if the boards are 3/4 thick the screw needs to be 2 1/4 long.  Chip board is very heavy because it has a lot of resin in it.  If you try to use thin boards the screws will split the adjoining side.  If you use 3/4 to 7/8 think boards it will cost a fortune and feel like a cement block when you are finished.
You don't really need a counter sink for soft wood like pine.  Actually, in your case, I would use a pilot drill and a washer that will spread out the force of the screw head without splitting the wood.  In soft wood the counter sunk head causes the splitting.

I should add that trying to repair these boxes with bees in them is not going to work too well because the bees are filling the gaps with propolise.  In the mean time you could use Michael's rope clamp until you can replace the boxes with ones that are repaired.

[little john]

It appears to me that there are two ways you could proceed.

The first is to source a really first-rate waterproof glue - then you could either build new boxes from scratch, or repair the ones you already have - that is, once you've dried them out.  Myself, I glue and screw corners, and run a thin layer of waterproof glue over the end-grain of exposed wood. Then murder the boxes with several coats of paint - I've had no significant problems after many years ... and we do get a drop or two of rain over here.
If your covers are warping, consider using 'soft' crown boards (inner covers) - plastic sheeting, canvas, old feed sacks - underneath a telescopic roof.  The telescopic roof is the most important part of a beehive, in my opinion - the bees can survive with holes or gaps in the woodwork, but they're snookered when it comes to keeping the rain out - so I see that as being my job.

The other approach is to build yourself some kind of shelter in which to keep your hives out of the weather.  It needn't be pretty, unless you have fussy neighbours. With this approach, you could then take more liberties with box construction.
If you can find yourself a source of pallets, they are very suitable for this kind of work. The roof of such a structure is the most demanding if you're working to a tight budget - old lino would work ok, as would tarpaulins, worn-out yacht sails, etc.  It's not critical if such a structure is not 100% weather-tight, one or two drips here and there are not an issue - it just needs to keep the lion's share of the weather off those bee boxes.

LJ

[Michael Bush]

Screws without glue work fine.  Glue without screws does not.  Both is best.

[Oldbeavo]

You have one of the best glues in the US, Titebond III, I use it with screws, 2" with counter sunk heads, pre drilled, wax dip the boxes and then apply 2 coats of enamel paving paint while the wood is hot.
Tiebond III is waterproof and has a heat rating to 130 degrees C, it still hold at 140+ as that is what we dip at.
The wood for the boxes is Pinus radiata

[Oblio13]

You have one of the best glues in the US, Titebond III, I use it with screws...

I came here to say that. Not Titebond I, not Titebond II, use Titebond III. Amazing stuff.

And next time you buy hive equipment, make sure it has traditional box or finger joints.

[gww]

omni
If it is any consulation to you, My boxes are probly even worse then yours and I don't glue or paint.  They are made out of air dried oak and it seems to warp pretty good.  The nucs seem to be worse then the bigger mediums.  I took some duct tape out when I inspected the last time cause I had two mediums that had at least an 1/8th inch crack on both sides where the boards had bowed/shrunk.  After taping it up the bees bearded worse then I had ever seen.  So I moved the tape back off and decided that the cracks where actually helping more then hurting.  I will check if the cracks more if the weather ever cools down and see if the bees are propolizing it shut, If not I will adress. 

I use a table saw to cut down the hivebodies after building them.  I have found that an angle grinder with the 35 grit sand paper wheel is good to take out high spots pretty quickly to get a better fit.  It probly messes with bee space a bit but I haven't seen any real issues but am also a first year bee keeper. 

The worst thing about oak is its weight.  Experiance bee keepers could not lift the back of the hive and know the weight of my stores cause they are not a normal hive.

I have a feeling it will all work out.
Good luck
gww

Ps  All the above is worth it if you have more time then money.  Buying everything new would make this an expensive hoby to get into.  Commercial guys with big sales involved probly have differrent worries then me.

[Acebird]

gww if you wanted to take the time you can cut 3,4, or 5 grooves on the inside wall of the boxes.  For 3/4 think stock cut the grooves 1/2 in deep.  This will eliminate the stress of warpage.  The bees will fill in the saw kerf with propolise.

[gww]

Ace
 I might try that on a few this winter.  I am so slow that running the board across the table saw probly won't even be noticed time wise.

I am guessing you mean scouring the boards long ways and not up and down.
Is this thinking correct?
Thanks
gww

Ps  I have been thinking about my medium boxes on the hive and wondering if the gap along the two mediums is "board warping" or if it is the finger joint area swelling more then the rest of the board.  I had not noticed it till recently and we have finally had a little rain.  I do have some bad boards that I might try some bit of salvaging with the mutiple shallow cuts though.

Ps ps  I would also say that cutting my own lumber, I am surprized at how many logs and how many boards it takes to build a few hives or anything else I build.  I always think I have more cut then I really do when I actually start using them.

[Oldbeavo]

We run 10" deep through our whole apiary and have very few problems, but one piece of early advice when constructing your box is to always put the inside of the tree of the board to the outside of the box.
This decision is made before rebating.
If a board cups ( curves) the convex side will be the inside of the tree side, this will mean that if any movement occurs it will keep the corners of the box tight.
In reverse if the box is put together inside out then the joints will open.
Hope this helps new constructors.

[Caribou]

Forget the OSB.  It will eventually draw moisture. 

Use screws.  Yes, they cost more but you have purchased screws now and you could have saved the cost of the nails and the additional work.

A box joint is much stronger and as such will hold better and last longer.  You will have screws going both ways.  When you lift a box full of honey this added strength could make a difference.  I have never had a box loaded with honey and bees come apart in my hands but the picture that comes to mind is not pleasant.

[little john]

I would also say that cutting my own lumber, I am surprized at how many logs and how many boards it takes to build a few hives or anything else I build.  I always think I have more cut then I really do when I actually start using them.

I found exactly the same when dismantling pallets - huge piles of planks very quickly disappear into just a few items.
LJ
 

[Acebird]

I am guessing you mean scouring the boards long ways and not up and down.

Yes

[gww]

ace
Thankyou
gww

[Culley]

omnimirage,

Good on you for building your own stuff! It would be cool to see more photos.

What do you mean by chip board? I would never, ever use chip board to build anything so I am assuming you must mean something else?

The Titebond that the Americans recommend used to be available in Masters.

[gww]

I have some traps made out of flake board.  It might be called chip board but it is the stuff with the big flakes of board not the sawdust type.  They have stayed out all year for two years and are holding up amazingly well.  I am not saying to use it on hives but I had it around and used it for something and two of the swarms out of three were caught in them.
If they go bad tomorrow I figure it was worth the effort to build them and hang them.
Good luck
gww

[omnimirage]

Learned a lot reading through all your replies; some great information! :)

The disadvantage of using cheap wood is it will warp as the moisture in the wood changes.  You will not stop this from happening.  You can limit the warpage some what by using screws.  I have argued this point many times ... glue is worthless in exterior conditions.  The shrink and swell of the wood cells will break the joints and the instant it breaks it is no more.  The screw needs to be into the adjoining piece two times the thickness of the piece you are trying to attach.  For instance if the boards are 3/4 thick the screw needs to be 2 1/4 long.  Chip board is very heavy because it has a lot of resin in it.  If you try to use thin boards the screws will split the adjoining side.  If you use 3/4 to 7/8 think boards it will cost a fortune and feel like a cement block when you are finished.

Someone mentioned to me that the wood I bought, freshly cut pine, is liable to moving due to the moisture still in it. I'm not going to waste my time with the chip board.

It appears to me that there are two ways you could proceed.

The first is to source a really first-rate waterproof glue - then you could either build new boxes from scratch, or repair the ones you already have - that is, once you've dried them out.  Myself, I glue and screw corners, and run a thin layer of waterproof glue over the end-grain of exposed wood. Then murder the boxes with several coats of paint - I've had no significant problems after many years ... and we do get a drop or two of rain over here.
If your covers are warping, consider using 'soft' crown boards (inner covers) - plastic sheeting, canvas, old feed sacks - underneath a telescopic roof.  The telescopic roof is the most important part of a beehive, in my opinion - the bees can survive with holes or gaps in the woodwork, but they're snookered when it comes to keeping the rain out - so I see that as being my job.

The first option is most practical for me, but the second sure is alluring and I'll have to keep such in mind. Maybe later in time, when my first batch of supers break down even more.

The idea of building inner covers sounds great! I do rather dread having water inside the hive; it's been an issue of mine for some of my hives for a year now. I was never taught to use inner covers, but I'll have to look into it. Seems like it'd be a haven for pests? Concerned with Small Hive Beetle here at the moment.

I realise now that I have been taught to place a mat on top of my hives, which helps against the weather somewhat. I'm going to need to educate myself on this.

omnimirage,

Good on you for building your own stuff! It would be cool to see more photos.

What do you mean by chip board? I would never, ever use chip board to build anything so I am assuming you must mean something else?

The Titebond that the Americans recommend used to be available in Masters.

I do mean chip board, the cheap stuff. I'll have to make some account that has all the photos I've taken of my hives; I'll post more in future threads, including when I actually build my boxes! :)

Know of any viable Australian alternative to Titebond? It seems to have quite a reputation.

[Oldbeavo]

Titebond III is available in Australia.
Google suppliers, my local hardware gets it in for $44 for 3.7 litres