Prime vs. Cast or after Swarm

[Acebird]

Reference:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?topic=31227.new;topicseen#new

Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

Thank you

[JP]

Prime swarm has the mated queen


...JP

[hankdog1]

cast swarms come after the primary are normally much smaller and have a virgin queen

[Acebird]

Would you handle them any different if you were to catch one vs. the other?

[bee-nuts]

Sometimes a colony will just swarm once with the original mated queen then a new virgin will hatch, mate, and take over the job of old queen.  Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

If you catch a swarm with a virgin you want to move it where it will go right away.  You dont want to come back in the middle of the following day ect and move the colony because the virgin may be out on a mating flight.  You also dont want to put a queen excluder on bottom of caught swarm to prevent them from absconding because you will end up with an unmated queen. 

I made the mistake of not moving a caught after cast swarm right away and had to wait for the virgin to mate.  I shook it into a hive with the plan on moving it to a yard five miles away, ended up a bears breakfast, what a waste.

[Acebird]

Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.

[rdy-b]

Other times once the original mated queen leaves with a swarm, when other virgins hatch the colony will swarm again, and again when next virgin hatches.

I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.

many things could happen--many cells could hatch at or close to same time-maybe there are cells that arent even caped yet-sometimes they keep turning out queen cells with every round of brood-RDY-B

[Countryboy]

Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

I think the confusion arises due to poor English skills.  The word 'prime' is an adjective to describe a type of swarm, and the word 'cast' is a verb describing the action of a swarm.

A prime swarm is the first swarm a hive throws in a season.  All subsequent swarms are known as afterswarms.

A cast swarm is a swarm which the hive casts away.  Cast is synonymous with throw or thrown.

[bee-nuts]

The bees will not let queen have access to the cells if they dont want her to kill them.  The will also not allow queens to emerge until they want them too.

[rdy-b]

Can someone explain Prime vs. Cast swarm?

I think the confusion arises due to poor English skills.  The word 'prime' is an adjective to describe a type of swarm, and the word 'cast' is a verb describing the action of a swarm.

A prime swarm is the first swarm a hive throws in a season.  All subsequent swarms are known as afterswarms.

A cast swarm is a swarm which the hive casts away.  Cast is synonymous with throw or thrown.

 you make them sound the same and that simply is not the case
also in this instance we are dealing with a NOUN caste   
[kast, kahst]  Show IPA
–noun
1.
Sociology .
a.
an endogamous and hereditary social group limited to persons of the same rank, occupation, economic position, etc., and having mores distinguishing it from other such groups.
caste swarms have no mated  queen--prime swarms have a mated queen --by DEFINITION a prime swarm is not the same as a caste swarm-- 8-)  RDY-B

[JP]

Would you handle them any different if you were to catch one vs. the other?

Another ask ten bee keepers and get eleven different answers question.

You really don't know what you're dealing with when it comes to swarms until you are dealing with them. I prefer to shake swarms, its more fun that way, but of course you run the risk of having virgins go flighty and extend the time it takes to house them.

I routinely look for the queen/queens and cage them if I can. This is a big help in controlling the swarm's urge to leave the set up. Others use an excluder.

The swarms I catch usually only contain one queen but swarms are known to have multiple ones. Last year I had one that had two.

Your statement "I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch." is not accurate.

This apparently does take place while other times there are multiple queens within the colony before swarming ensues.

Case in point, a removal I did two years ago, I caught 9 queens all alive and well.

In early spring I routinely remove colonies whereby it is the norm to catch 3-4 queens, as such was the case last year.


...JP

[Acebird]

Another ask ten bee keepers and get eleven different answers question.

In this case I am looking for different options and then try to make a determination on which method I want to try first.

JP, so you would shake and the queen might go hippity hop good bye.  Then what?

What are the other options and pitfalls for dealing with swarms.  There should be ten others, right?

[Keith13]

What are the other options and pitfalls for dealing with swarms.  There should be ten others, right?

with that question it will be more than 10 I bet

Keith

[JP]

Ace, ok, don't hold me to an exact number now.  :-D

Its not that she will leave entirely but more that a virgin will go back to where the cluster is and you have to keep dealing with re-housing them, which is fine unless the swarm was situated 20' up in a tree.

I prefer to cage queens for that reason.

You could vac the swarm, place the branch in a box, set up a catch box adjacent to the swarm...

Let me mention this, based on my experience, queens will generally hold tight to where the cluster is, so it is usually prudent to physically move her or the entire branch. She usually will not leave the cluster on her own.

A catch box with a brood frame is an entire story all together and she likely will enter that, but who has a brood frame on hand unless the swarm is in their own bee yard?

As I mentioned, I prefer to shake most swarms unless they are 20' up on a branch I can cut and lower to the ground.

I enjoy shaking them and watching them orient, besides that I always look for the queen and I can't do that unless I shake them.

You could also shake them into the set up and have an excluder on so she cannot leave. This is a common enough practice as well.

One clarification: I previously mis spoke when I said caging queens could calm a swarm's urge to leave the new set up. That is not the case. They will try and leave regardless but if there is only one queen and she is caged they have no choice but to go right back into the set up. Something I routinely witness.


...JP

[Acebird]

Thanks Jp,  I bought a queen catcher but I have already read that a dummy on the end of a queen catcher is more likely to be a queen eliminator.  I got some swarm catcher pheromone too.  Is that going to result in getting the queen also or is that just for getting a bunch of bees?

[JP]

Thanks Jp,  I bought a queen catcher but I have already read that a dummy on the end of a queen catcher is more likely to be a queen eliminator.  I got some swarm catcher pheromone too.  Is that going to result in getting the queen also or is that just for getting a bunch of bees?

Pheromone is to attract a swarm.

Just be careful you don't accidentally close the catcher on her. I like to have her run in and up one of the interior sides before closing the catcher.

Have fun!


...JP

[Countryboy]

caste swarms have no mated  queen--prime swarms have a mated queen --by DEFINITION a prime swarm is not the same as a caste swarm

I have never heard that being a prime swarm was dependant upon having a mated queen.  I have always heard of a prime swarm as being the first (and largest) swarm from a hive.

By your analogy, what would you call a swarm that had both a mated queen, and a virgin queen in it?  What do you call 2 swarms from the same hive, one right after the other, and both containing mated queens? (but the second swarm is much smaller than the first swarm?)

It should also be noted that this thread was not discussing caste swarms versus prime swarms.  Caste and cast are different words, with different meanings.

[rdy-b]

  your nit picking this -the context of the topic gives inference to the subject-
  try to get past the misspelling -and keep a open mind-RDY-B

[Countryboy]

When we communicate via written text, it is important to spell words correctly, especially if two words have similar spellings and sound the same phonetically.  Trying to read someone's mind and guess at what they were trying to say can cause problems.

the context of the topic gives inference to the subject

I disagree.  The original post referred to a thread with a post about a "cast swarm" used in the sense of a thrown swarm.  I did not see anywhere in the original post, or the thread it referred to, inferring that caste was what was intended.

and keep a open mind

It's hard to keep everything from falling out if you have an open mind.

[rdy-b]

When we communicate via written text, it is important to spell words correctly, especially if two words have similar spellings and sound the same phonetically.  Trying to read someone's mind and guess at what they were trying to say can cause problems.

the context of the topic gives inference to the subject

I disagree.  The original post referred to a thread with a post about a "cast swarm" used in the sense of a thrown swarm.  I did not see anywhere in the original post, or the thread it referred to, inferring that caste was what was intended.

and keep a open mind

It's hard to keep everything from falling out if you have an open mind.

there is no requirement for spelling or punctuation in order to participate on this forum  :)
  countryboy you ant no ALLEN DICK and you never will be- :lol: RDY-B

[Brian D. Bray]

The Prime swarm is usually the first swarm of the season, but not always, the prime swarm is the largest swarm of the season.
Afterswarms are swarms that occur closely after the initial swarm, they can have either mated or unmated queens.
Cast swarms are an afterswarm that is too small to be of any worth, say baseball sized.  They occur at the tail end of a series of after swarms or late in the season.

Remember the old adage:
A swarm in May is worth a pile of hay,
A swarmm in June is worth a silver spoon.
A swarm in July isn't worth  your time.
A swarm in August should be cast away.

Swarms with multiple queens are not all that unsusual, and it is possible for a swarm with multiple queens to throw a cast swarm shortly after setting up housekeeping.
I've known of hives to throw as many as 15 afterswarms in one season, all but the 1st 2 or 3 were cast size (small and worthless)
Often the original queen will have swarmed days prior to the successor queen's hatching (which is why you can end up queenless if you remove capped queen cells).

Sometimes queen cells are developed over a period of a week or 10 days.  Not all the queen will hatch at the same time, and subsiquent hatching will produce after swarms.  A newly hatched queen will only kill those queen cells that are piping or where she hears a queen eating away the cap.  Queens cells holding queens that havent developed to that point are ignored, setting up the possibility of a mated queen after swarm.
In the case where 2 queens hatch at the near the same time, and do not come in contact with each other, possibly with both going on mating flights and then one swarms when the come in contact (it is also possible it could remain a 2 queen hive).
It is also possible for a later developing queen to hatch and exit the hive on a mating flight while the queen that hatched rior to it is on one of its mating flights.

[Michael Bush]

>I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.

Only if it is a supersedure or the bees let her.  In the case of swarming they don't let her until they think they have swarmed down to the population they need.

[Brian D. Bray]

>I thought the first queen to hatch kills all the other queens in their cells before they get to hatch.

Only if it is a supersedure or the bees let her.  In the case of swarming they don't let her until they think they have swarmed down to the population they need.

That is true thanks for catching my oversight.

[Acebird]

In the case of swarming they don't let her until they think they have swarmed down to the population they need.

Can I infer that part of the reason for swarming is to decrease the population of the parent hive?

[JP]

Ace, bees swarm for a number of reasons, early spring for reproduction, when honeybound, congestive reasoning and then there are absconds due to various conditions, usually beyond their control.


...JP

[Brian D. Bray]

In the case of swarming they don't let her until they think they have swarmed down to the population they need.

Can I infer that part of the reason for swarming is to decrease the population of the parent hive?

After the reproductive swarm, maybe if there is some time elapsed.  Swarms immediately after a primary swarm are most likely after swarms.  A swarm a month to 2 late is most likely a population control issue.  The more room you can give your bees within the hive and the more comb they need to draw the less likely they are to swarm, but it's not a guarantee.   

[Acebird]

The more room you can give your bees within the hive and the more comb they need to draw the less likely they are to swarm, but it's not a guarantee.   

Can it be over done giving the bees too much room too quickly.  For instance once you have manipulated the brood boxes either by splitting or just the Spring arrangement can you just throw on two super or three if you have them instead of adding them one box at a time?

[bee-nuts]

You can add all the boxes you want but it is crowding in the brood nest that will induce them to swarm.  The queen will rarely cross the honey dome so you can have all the room they need on top and it may not matter.  You have to physically open up the brood nest to relive swarm pressure.  Adding super will relive pressure being they can move honey stores up but may not do the trick if brood nest is already too crowded.  If you add a queen excluder before you put supers on sometimes they ignore the supers cause they dont want to pass through the excluder.  You can do this and come back week after week pulling frames wondering why they have done nothing in them and soon find out all you colonies swarmed on you.  For that reason I dont like using them.  If you do use them you want to make sure you pull frames of honey above the excluder or wait untill they start working in supers before you add an excluder.  Once they are working in the boxes they will cross the excluder without hesitation.

[Acebird]

Yes, we had this problem both times with the two nucs that we got.  We could not understand why they were not filling the supers when other beeks were harvesting honey.  Then we were told to remove the excluder for a couple of weeks and so we did.  They came right up within a couple of weeks and we never put the excluder back again.  Learned that one already.

What is somewhat confusing to me is that people say the bees will go right to the top and build down.  If you have two boxes of brood down in the bottom they are not going to leave it and start building two or three boxes up are they?  Our Spring can be very warm days and very cool nights.  If they have all that space on top is there a chance of the brood getting chilled and die?

[bee-nuts]

They will stay by brood when cold.  If you go into a hive on a cool morning all the bees will be down with the brood.  Only way the brood would get chilled would be if you were dumb enough to dig in it.  I have stole honey on cool mornings.  It works great.  All bees are down, they are too cold to fly much, and you hardly have to brush any bees. 

[Acebird]

They will stay by brood when cold.

Great, so they will work the supers during the day and run down in the brood box at night.  As long as the supers have drawn comb it doesn't matter how many you put on.  What I don't like though is now I have to remove the top supers to see if the lower ones are full to make sure they don't swarm because of lack of room.