Author Topic: Another Swarm and frustration... (Read 4782 times)

Irina · « **on:** June 23, 2011, 03:47:21 pm »

I just wanted to share this with you...
I had another swarm yesterday from my 2nd hive, and I already had 2 swarms from my 1st hive. I have 4 hives - 4th hive is a spit from the 1st hive also.
This is my 3rd summer as a beekeeper and I never had swarms before this season, so I don't have the experience with swarming and catching. I just put the deep box under the tree where they are still hanging, hoping they will get in.
I know some of you folks said that Swarm is good...means the colony is in good condition and strong.
But, I feel very disappointed...I loved them and cared for them and they just left???
I know it is a nature...but I still feel sad. I guess I don't have enough experience to control the feelings.
Thanks for listening...

vmmartin · « **Reply #1 on:** June 23, 2011, 04:16:08 pm »

Chin Up Irina. You are correct that it is just natural. However, go out there and shake that baby into your box. I would not just sit by and hope that they go into it. If you have not watched the different ways to catch them, there are alot of videos on the forum demonstrating ways to catch a swarm. Maybe you will be successful, maybe not. But you will at least know that you tried. I bet you learn something in the process as well. Be of good cheer. Wish you the best.

Irina · « **Reply #2 on:** June 23, 2011, 04:23:05 pm »

This tree is very tall pine tree with no branches at the bottom, and they are sitting on the top of the tree. There is no any way I can get there and shake them into the box. I need a helicopter to get there...

Thank you.

CapnChkn · « **Reply #3 on:** June 23, 2011, 10:58:24 pm »

Well, I don't know if you have the resources handy, but I asked about swarm equipment in January, and got a bunch of excellent suggestions. In one of them, Michael Bush writes about using Lemon Grass Oil and Queen Pheromone. I seem to redirect to his posts a lot, he's very good at thinking outside the "box." :)

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,31021.msg250062.html#msg250062

I'm trying to wrap my head around this concept, but have only gotten one swarm call, which was in a bush 3 feet off the ground, and haven't had a chance to try it.

schawee · « **Reply #4 on:** June 23, 2011, 11:19:55 pm »

irina,you can stop your hive from swarming by making a split.when you see swarm cells in you hive you should take the old queen and some cap brood frames and a frame of honey and place it in a nuc .this will make the hive think they have swarmed . give it a try next time. .......schawee

Irina · « **Reply #5 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:20:08 pm »

Thank you Shawnee,
I did already one split previously from another hive. With this hive I did not have a chance...I guess I was late. And I know about the lemongrass oil. But, I don't have it now. Is it big difference between lemongrass and lemon oils?

We have rain three days on the row. They are still on the tree. This is their 3rd day on the tree. yesterday and today The swarm dropped small clusters of bees on the ground, approximately 200-300 bees. Looks like they are dying. Is it from starving?
May be I am silly, but I put then in the bait box and gave them some sugar syrup. looks like they dying anyway. It is breaking my heart...

schawee · « **Reply #6 on:** June 24, 2011, 12:43:21 pm »

irina,you don't have to wait till the queen cells are capedand about to hatch. you do it when they start to make swarm cells.you can avoid this by giving them another box before they get congested.when they have 7 to 8 frames drawn out you add another box. ...schawee

Haddon · « **Reply #7 on:** June 24, 2011, 01:36:08 pm »

I don't know the height of the tree but if there is any way you could get a line / rope up there near them you could raise a box with some comb next to the swarm if it were just a paper box.

When I have to get a line in the top of a tree I will use fishing line and a lead sinker and either use a fishing pole or sling shot and shoot the line to the limb I want.
I know the fishing pole sounds funny but think I spent my child hood trying to get the line in just the right spot and almost all fishermen have put their line in the top of a tree once or twice.

Once I get the fishing line over the branch I want I then tie a rope to it and drag the rope over. I do this by just letting the weight drop to the ground then tie on.

Now I know with big tall pines this can be irrelevant but I just wanted to put it out there I would try it up to 50 foot or more I don't know how high a six dollar sling shot would get it. I never can find mine when I need it but the fishing pole is always there.

CapnChkn · « **Reply #8 on:** June 24, 2011, 01:56:15 pm »

Irina, did you read the post I linked? I suppose if you don't have the LGO, your're probably not going to have Queen Mandibular Pheromone. LGO imitates a scent that bees put out when they fan. It's not the same as Lemon. If you can get to a GNC, or similar, you can get a little bottle of it for just a few dollars. A few drops will last a few weeks.

I can't say it will bring the swarm into the hive, but that is how the bees call out to each other to say, "It's here!". If you watch when they go into the hive for the first time, a bunch will stand in front of the entrance and expose the "Nasanov's" gland. That could help.

The part that continues to confuse me is the QMP. This reassures the colony that things are alright somehow.

As for the bees dropping, I'm assuming they're chillled from the rain. The main group in a cluster should keep warm and fairly dry. Schawee is right, he knows what he's saying. I'm working on you getting your swarm in that hive. I mean, you don't have anything to feel sad about yet! They're still where you can see them.

I caught a swarm at the first part of this season. First bees I have had, can look into, and actually work, since I was 21. I housed them in a deep box, reduced the entrance to 1 1/4 inches by 5/16 inches (32 x 8 mm), and started feeding. 16 days from that point, I walked out into the yard to see bees all over the place. They were everywhere! I got a nuc box, set it where I watched them settle, and clipped the branch, set it in the nuc, and set it where the rest could get inside.

I went in search of something, turned around, and they were flying off again! They landed about 10 feet away in the grass. I tried to get them back in another nuc box, but could only watch helplessly as they flew off, in a big cloud, into the trees never to be seen again. I think what we're saying is, "It's all a part of the game."

Irina · « **Reply #9 on:** June 24, 2011, 02:12:39 pm »

I read the link, it is very knowledgeable!
It is still raining here, and to get to the swarm I need to hire a bucket truck. It is very, very tall tree, I
Cannot estimate the height.
Now, I am going to the store to get LGO. I Will try to do everything I can.

Thank you all for your support!

Danger Brown · « **Reply #10 on:** June 24, 2011, 02:50:33 pm »

Irina, Read a little about swarm traps. They are in that tree scouting for a new place to move to. If you make some nice places (including the lemongrass oil) then they may move from the tree to your box.

Regarding feeling sad about it. It's very much like they have just had a baby(swarms are how hives reproduce) because they are thriving and successful under your care. It's not the same as absconding (the whole colony leaves) which is how you're perceiving it.

You should be proud of their ability to reproduce under your care.

Irina · « **Reply #11 on:** June 25, 2011, 04:19:15 pm »

Just an update...
Few bees are inside of my swarm trap. I am not sure if they are from the swarm on the tree. They are flying in and out. The swarm is still on the tree, this is their 4th day. It is not raining today and they are more active. Hopefully, they will move somewhere today...
Today I checked the hive that got swarm. It has 8 queen cells in different stages, a lot of brood, no eggs. Now, I am 100% sure that this hive had this swarm. It is a strong colony, not overcrowded.
Should I do anything with this colony, should I split them? Or, just wait when they raise a new queen.
I concern about 8 queen cells.
Any advices would be appreciated.

Irina · « **Reply #12 on:** June 25, 2011, 04:29:46 pm »

Danger Brown thank you,
Now I feel more proud...I have never thought that because of my care for them they are doing very well.
I put LGO in the trap, looks like they checking the trap...
Now, I am more concerned about the hive that had this swarm and has 8 queen cells now.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #13 on:** June 25, 2011, 05:15:31 pm »

Quote from: Irina on June 25, 2011, 04:19:15 pm

Today I checked the hive that got swarm. It has 8 queen cells in different stages, a lot of brood, no eggs. ....
Should I do anything with this colony, should I split them? Or, just wait when they raise a new queen. I concern about 8 queen cells.

The first to emerge will probably kill the rest. You could do a split depending on how many bees you have altogether. If you have less than 15 frames of bees total, I'd probably just leave them alone. Make sure the broodnest is open.... i.e. that you have empty frames interspersed with drawn frames. That will reduce the chances of a swarm, although once they have decided to go, it's hard to stop them. 8 cells could be supercedure or it could be swarm cells.

Irina · « **Reply #14 on:** June 25, 2011, 05:30:53 pm »

I don't really want to do a split. I just don't want them to do a second swarm. I Think I have
15 frames of bees, may be less, may be more. With my experience it is hard to estimate.
Thanks.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #15 on:** June 25, 2011, 05:36:53 pm »

Ok, if you have that many bees, you could do a split. That would probably prevent another swarm. Make sure that each part of the split gets at least one queen cell. In the future put empty frames into the brood nest as a swarm preventative.

Irina · « **Reply #16 on:** June 25, 2011, 05:49:26 pm »

Thanks!

CapnChkn · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2011, 12:07:54 am »

Ok! That's encouraging! Here's hoping!

jaseemtp · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2011, 10:10:52 am »

I have one suggestion Irina, since you have had a few swarms this year, I think you should set out some bait hives near your bee yard. That way if you have another unexpected swarm maybe and I know its a big maybe the swarm would settle in the box and not on the tree. Also if you can not get the lemon grass oil, lemon pledge is suppose to work just as well but not for long. Just a thought from a newbee.

Tommyt · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2011, 11:23:49 am »

Irina
I know some will :lau: but I did this and the swarm came down
I read some where that you could take a wool cap the kind you use in the winter
or for robbing banks :shock:
Lay the beanie(cap) on your swarm trap box along with LGO and if you have some
old comb put that inside your swam box
I swear I watched this little swarm sit 30ft. up a tree for a week. I laid the cap out
and the next day they came to the box.
Coincidence ??? I don't know but ,what I read was the cap looks like a small swarm
and the bees come look

Good luck
Tommyt

Irina · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2011, 04:33:55 pm »

Today, it their 5th day on the tree. Some bees from this swarm are getting in and out the bait box.
They are even working on the old frames I placed in the bait with lemongrass oil. Still hopping they will get inside the bait box. Just want them to move somewhere...
I will try to use all your advices. Thank you again!

Haddon · « **Reply #21 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:44:57 pm »

Don't think I saw this one but if you are in the county you could use a 22 and shoot the limb off the tree. Sounds hard but it really isn't as a kid I would practice shooting limbs and saplings down for the fun of it.

jaseemtp · « **Reply #22 on:** June 28, 2011, 12:53:08 pm »

Haddon, I have heard of folks trying that before and all the swarm did was move to another limb.

Scadsobees · « **Reply #23 on:** June 28, 2011, 01:37:22 pm »

Yeah, that is terribly frustrating! Most of my swarms go into my 10 foot cherry tree, but a few of them end up 60 feet up (mostly the big ones)! I spend a long time staring at them trying to think of schemes to get them down, but they always leave. I've tried the swarm trap for them too, and they snubbed me....

Irina · « **Reply #24 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:30:47 pm »

Finally, They left us yesterday! Even the 10-20 bees from the bait left with them.

Haddon, my husband would love your suggestion...... He would probably use all his weapons and ammunition.
It is good that we did not receive your solution before the swarm left.
Thank you all!!! You guys are great!
I am glad that I found this forum.

Haddon · « **Reply #25 on:** June 28, 2011, 04:51:37 pm »

You might want to invest in some make shift bait boxes about a mile from your place in all four directions. Instinct for honey bees is to move when they swarm also put bait boxes in your yard for next year you probably will not catch your hives swarms in them but you might catch the swarm off the swarm that just left you. Remember if your hive swarms off this year it doesn't move any further than it can swarm back next year. I always get swarms from wild hives here its the reason in bad years I will open feed I feel if I help keep the wild ones up and going then next year they will repay me with a swarm or two.

Irina · « **Reply #26 on:** June 28, 2011, 05:03:53 pm »

Haddon, Good to know this. As always learning!

T Beek · « **Reply #27 on:** June 28, 2011, 06:02:51 pm »

As a few mentioned, keeping your broodnests open is the best way to suppress swarming. It must be done early enough to be effective, before they decide to swarm ;) which means looking in 'at least' twice a month. Someone should really write a book on KYBO (keeping your Broodnests open) because it is basic beekeeping, albeit known by many different names, which likely cause great confusion (so it goes). It must be practiced and perfected to be effective. Too many beeks simply add another box when bees 'seem crowded' but that never works, whether for expanding brood nest or expecting honey in return. Bees need a bit of coaxing, not just an 'empty' box.

Open up your colonies and locate the brood nest (bring an extra box with frames) remove some brood frames (1 or two or three or five depending on number of bees/boxes/hive type) from each box, placing them into 'new' box, each separated by an empty frame. Place empty frames where you removed brood from, keeping just 'one' empty frame between each frame with brood. Try to keep brood together as you stack them back up. That's KYBO. Hope this makes sense.

While it 'might' slow down the tendency to swarm, splitting your colonies gives you 'more' hives, not necessarily more bees, and if that is what you want then you should make splits, there is much written on the various methods.

However, KYBO makes your existing hives stronger 'and' less prone to swarm and if done in a timely and methodical manner will outperform any other method to prevent swarming. But............... sometimes they just swarm no matter what you do. But don't be sad about losing one now and then, that's like being sad for having sex :-D. if you're a bee.

thomas