Author Topic: Condensation in an observation hive (Read 8534 times)

Maryland Beekeeper · « **on:** January 11, 2013, 12:55:51 am »

Anyone notice condensation occurs @ defined horizontal boundary layer halfway down glass ?
Cheers,
Drew

edward · « **Reply #1 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:17:20 am »

Our beekeeping clubs observation hive gets some condensation when the public forget to close the insulation shutters.

mvh edward :-P

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #2 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:33:55 am »

Indoors or out ? Got a good scientific experiment for them. Condensation in hive now ? Describe. No condensation ? attach 12" transparent tube to entrance outdoors, wait 24 hours, observe tube.
Cheers,
Drew

BeeMaster2 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 11, 2013, 06:48:51 am »

I have never seen it on my OB. At what temperature does it happen. is it indoors or outside?
Jim

Finski · « **Reply #4 on:** January 11, 2013, 06:59:57 am »

.
My hive area has now about -10C. In that temp condensation water freezes inside the hive and makes snow inside.
It depends how long cold spel lasts and how long it gathers snow inside the hive.
When mild weather comes, the snow melts inside and drills onto bottom. It freezes onto bottom or drills out.

Inner cover must have a good inslutation that the condensation happens to corners and onto side walls.
If the condensation happens over frames, it makes wet boath bees and frames.

This has nothing scientic. This has know so many decades. You see it with bare yes when the inner cover sucks water.

It is same what happens in a car when respiration moisture condensates onto windows

edward · « **Reply #5 on:** January 11, 2013, 07:51:39 am »

out doors, in the fall, in the wintertime I have moved the bees to a normal poly-hive.

mvh edward :-P

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #6 on:** January 11, 2013, 09:54:59 am »

Ah ha ! Perfect Finski ! :) (Thought there was thingy clapping?) Perhaps we are getting close ? Ok.... Finski, if you were to add more insulation to that hive, top and extend down sides say 6"-12" , remove in 24 hours, what observation do you predict upon removal ? What does this tell about hive atmosphere ?
Drew

p.s. u are doing reverse so to speak

Michael Bush · « **Reply #7 on:** January 11, 2013, 10:32:25 am »

I drilled three vents on the very top and cut holes in the curtain to match them. I put #7 hardware cloth on them so I can trickle some pollen in if I need to. This took care of the condensation.
http://www.bushfarms.com/beesobservationhives.htm#pictures
You can see two of them here. I added the third after this picture, so I could put pollen in without it landing in the feeder.
http://www.bushfarms.com/images/ObservationHiveCurtain.JPG

Finski · « **Reply #8 on:** January 11, 2013, 10:39:30 am »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 09:54:59 am

Ah ha ! Perfect Finski ! :) (Thought there was thingy clapping?) Perhaps we are getting close ? OK.... Finski, if you were to add more insulation to that hive, top and extend down sides say 6"-12" (across glass horizontal), remove in 24 hours, what observation do you predict upon removal ? What does this tell about hive atmosphere ?
Drew

I use 4 cm thick polystyrene hives in winter. As inner cover I have a 9 mm thick wooden panel box and on there 70 mm foam plastic matres piece (recycled). Wood parts are too from recycled material. Those are over summer too. This is so called "respirating structure". It let moisture to go into loft.

I like this structure because bees cannot bite the wood and I can clean it with flame.

When I put 30 mm thick polystyrene board over hive, it consended water droplets. I wondered why. They I measured the thickness of side wall and realized that inner cover was colder than sidewalls. Construction board has not so good insulation value as polystyrene hive.

If I use inch thick wooden board as inner cover, it works in summer, but in cold weathers it starts to condensate water and it will be very wet and takes blue mold.

.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #9 on:** January 11, 2013, 10:41:32 am »

.........Oh boy :) Now I'm all mixed up :) I'm thinking regular hive + transparent + outdoors , Finski - your hive ?

p.s. and airtight :)

Finski · « **Reply #10 on:** January 11, 2013, 02:06:22 pm »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 10:41:32 am

.........Oh boy :) Now I'm all mixed up :) I'm thinking regular hive + transparent + outdoors , Finski - your hive ?

p.s. and airtight :)

My hives have solid bottom. Now I make new bottoms so that they slant forwards. The front is 4 cm high and back is 1 cm high.
Then I have 15 mm hole in front wall. Moisture moves out via this and bees get air when main entrance is blocked.

The inner cover is not airtight because I open it to trickle my bees.

Hive winter well in open air, better than in some cellar or under snow.

.Just now winter air on my hives is about -10C to -15C. Not bad- It is a common weather 3 months.

More important is the spring when bees start to make brood. Then warm hive is a big advantage.

I have had this system 30 years and I am not going to change it.

In have heated my hives 8 springs with electrict heating. It is 2 months when bees start brooding up to summer.
It gives extra boost.
.
.
But you have in Maryland really warm. You need not to be worried about winter.

.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #11 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:51:34 pm »

Finksi, Do you have a pic of that whole observation hive ?

Finski · « **Reply #12 on:** January 11, 2013, 03:53:21 pm »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 03:51:34 pm

Finksi, Do you have a pic of that whole observation hive ?

No I don't

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #13 on:** January 11, 2013, 05:23:23 pm »

I mistook your pic for one of a hive :) oops.. but no matter, it is what you said that was an important clue I think. If you refer back to my question, could you, seal your hive airtight, add insulation, and by this, force condensation to occur only @ level below cluster ?

derekm · « **Reply #14 on:** January 12, 2013, 09:15:51 am »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 11, 2013, 05:23:23 pm

I mistook your pic for one of a hive :) oops.. but no matter, it is what you said that was an important clue I think. If you refer back to my question, could you, seal your hive airtight, add insulation, and by this, force condensation to occur only @ level below cluster ?

in short yes..
Condensation takes place where the air at the dew point temperature. In an insulated container wih an open bottom with a heat source at the top of the cavitiy, you will get a temperature gradient. At the point where heat losses allow the wall or air temperature to reach the dew point you will get condensation.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #15 on:** January 12, 2013, 02:31:54 pm »

@ this point may I suggest we a adjourn to ongoing thread, "Thermocline in Honeybeehive" ?

Finski · « **Reply #16 on:** January 12, 2013, 02:41:22 pm »

.
Condensation

Solar Water From the air and ground Distilled Survivalist water condensation 45 minutes

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #17 on:** January 12, 2013, 11:15:37 pm »

Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

BlueBee · « **Reply #18 on:** January 13, 2013, 02:50:30 am »

Yeah, I got lots, but they're not observation hives :) See the 'top vs bottom' thread :-D

What might be a cool experiment for next winter would be to make a nuc out of plexiglass and cover it in a foam shell. They you could see the condensation on all sides when you took off the foam shell. However I'm not too concerned what is happening on the sides. My concern is the condensation that might occur over the bees heads. :(

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #19 on:** January 13, 2013, 03:37:01 am »

Want to meet @ the thermocline thread ? :)

Finski · « **Reply #20 on:** January 13, 2013, 04:12:53 am »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 11:15:37 pm

Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #21 on:** January 13, 2013, 10:01:10 am »

EXACTLY WRONG !! Idea is to ENCOURAGE....... condensation. BELOW thermocline ! IMHO.

Finski · « **Reply #22 on:** January 13, 2013, 10:03:28 am »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 13, 2013, 10:01:10 am

EXACTLY WRONG !! Idea is to ENCOURAGE....... condensation. BELOW thermocline !

SORRY!!!!!

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #23 on:** January 13, 2013, 10:13:28 am »

Think about it. You mentioned an important clue in your own hive. I think I posed the question to you before. If you, sealed airtight, added insulation, could you,.......push, the condensation, down the walls ? In other words, can you see how the heat of cluster would keep upper levels of cluster dry, in static atmosphere ? Water, condensing on walls, tells they are cold enough for vapor to condense, to cold. Solution is insulation not ventilation. IMHO

Finski · « **Reply #24 on:** January 13, 2013, 12:09:40 pm »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 13, 2013, 10:13:28 am

Solution is insulation not ventilation. IMHO

Wrong........
And another wrong is that they are not alternatives.

I have insulation and ventilation in condition, and has been decades.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #25 on:** January 13, 2013, 01:09:22 pm »

:) Oh boy......I tried :)

BlueBee · « **Reply #26 on:** January 13, 2013, 03:07:48 pm »

But Finski what if a meteor falls from the sky and knocks a hole in the roof of my well insulated home. Won’t that let out a lot of the heat, even though I’m still insulated? Maybe Drew’s point is: too much air infiltration, or air loss, defeats the purpose of insulation.?

BlueBee · « **Reply #27 on:** January 13, 2013, 03:12:12 pm »

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 13, 2013, 01:09:22 pm

:) Oh boy......I tried :)

I'm a bit confused with your interest in "thermocline" when you're also moving to titanic sized combs (4 feet long). Seems like the 2 concepts can't possibly work together in harmony? Yes? No?

Finski · « **Reply #28 on:** January 13, 2013, 03:35:09 pm »

Quote from: BlueBee on January 13, 2013, 03:07:48 pm

But Finski what if a meteor falls from the sky and knocks a hole in the roof of my well insulated home.

Do you have insuarance?- If you have, then wait 15 minutes before you call to fire station

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #29 on:** January 13, 2013, 07:08:06 pm »

BlueBee, Just trying to replicate feral, the way I would expect the phenomena to be,....... of most advantage, to honeybee organism. I see the thermocline @ 12". Below that, free/warm/clean/protected water, above, toasty and dry. Think upside down moonshine still. Think turtle. Look @ your honeybee organism again for the first time. I think it might be natures perfect distillery. :)

BlueBee · « **Reply #30 on:** January 14, 2013, 02:01:17 am »

I’ll have to see if I have some photos of bathroom ceilings when people didn’t run the bathroom exhaust vent! It ain’t pretty :-D

I like the idea of a heat bubble / thermocline hive. Heck I've got a bunch of nucs using that design this winter myself. However if the stars and planets are not aligned, you can end up with a wet moldy mess. A hive with a top vent is surely cooler than a hive without such a vent. However a hive with a top vent is also without a doubt drier. Sometimes you have to pick your poison :angel:

BlueBee · « **Reply #31 on:** January 14, 2013, 02:08:27 am »

Quote from: Finski on January 13, 2013, 03:35:09 pm

Do you have insuarance?- If you have, then wait 15 minutes before you call to fire station

Do insurance companies cover your home if it gets hit by a meteor?

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #32 on:** January 14, 2013, 10:45:14 am »

I think you will find that if the bathroom is airtight, warm, and atmosphere static, the water will not condense on the ceiling. But I could be wrong :) Was also thinking that with your nucs the addition of a couple empties on bottom could/should? help B's lower the thermocline.

derekm · « **Reply #33 on:** January 14, 2013, 02:09:58 pm »

Quote from: Finski on January 13, 2013, 04:12:53 am

Quote from: Maryland Beekeeper on January 12, 2013, 11:15:37 pm
Got any pics of condensation in a honeybee hive ?

They make any sense. Idea is avoid condensation, not to make it.

bees make condensation regardless ... this is about where it happens
if it occurs inside the insulated space below the bees you get 10% heat back.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #34 on:** January 14, 2013, 02:51:47 pm »

DING ! DING ! DING ! WINNER ! WINNER ! CHICKEN DINNER ! X:X

Also, (and more importantly), if it occurs in insulated space below bee's, you have dry B's !
Cheers,
Drew
p.s. Thank you derekm
p.s.s. My inquiries into thermocline as it regards to honeybee hives has met with some.......misunderstanding, on a British forum. I believe that questions about how the laws of thermodynamics operate in a honeybee hive are valid and legitimate ones.

Maryland Beekeeper · « **Reply #35 on:** January 14, 2013, 04:10:32 pm »

Shall we move this over to the thermocline thread ?