My first cutout?!?!?! Help!!!

[Sean Kelly]

I got a voicemail today from someone near me with some bees he wants to get rid of.  He said he's absolutely sure they are honeybees and has not killed them yet because he understands their importance.  I haven't called him back yet cause I wanted to check in with you guys first.  He said they're in a tree.  What do I need to know about removing a colony from a tree?  Does the tree need to come down?  Is this the wrong time of the year to be doing a cutout (the weather has been anywhere from the 30's to the 50's)?  I'm very excited about this and am looking forward to your responses!!!

Sean Kelly

[Jerrymac]

First you need to go look at it. If possible take pictures to show to us. Then we can come up with a plan.

Also, I like to wait for 70F temps before I mess with bees. But that's just me  :-D

[Robo]

He said he's absolutely sure they are honeybees

If I had a $1 for every time I've heard that and they turned out not to be.

Taking the tree down is the best way to ensure you get the queen.  If you need to trap out it is a lot more work AND you need to supply the queen (make sure you charge accordingly).

As Jerry said,  takes some pics and you'll get plenty of advice ;)

[steveouk]

Way to go !

[Kathyp]

sean, after last year i am asking for pictures to be emailed to me before i waste gas.  even doing that, i got a picture of honeybees last year, but found a yellowjacket nest when i got to the place.  she just took a picture of a bee on a flower and sent it.  after all....it was yellow  :-)

i got a removal call today too.  must be our warming weather.

jerrymac, if we waited for 70 degrees, we'd never mess with our bees at all!!

[Jerrymac]

Yeah I know some places think 70 is unusual weather.  :-D

I did say "But that's just me"

[JP]

If they're flying, I'll fool with them, but that's just me. Trees are tough if you can't cut the tree down, honestly, unless you can cut the tree down, its not usually worth the effort. Send pics and good luck.

....JP

[Sean Kelly]

Wow, thanks for the advise so far.  I talked to the guy today and he said the hive has been in this tree for almost 15 years far as he can remember.  He said the tree is pretty much rotted out and wants to take it down but was hoping to save these bees instead of killing them.  So takin the tree down isn't an issue.
Jerry, I have to agree with Kathy.  Up here in the western washington mountains, 70 degrees is a heatwave and its time to go swimming at the lake.

Anyways, he said the hive is about 15 feet up!  So what should be the plan of action?  Fall the tree and then get em out or do the cutout from a ladder?
I'm pretty sure these are honeybees since yellow jackets aren't very active right now and he said this hive has been really busy the last several weeks (same as mine).  I'm going out to his place on Sunday to get a up close look (smoker and suit ready).  I'll definately take pics and post them here asap.

Please, keep the advice rollin!  You guys are awesome!  I'm totally stoked!

Sean Kelly

[Jerrymac]

What I would like to do, if I was going to do it, would be to cut the tree from above the nest. Then cut the section off that has the bees. Place a piece of screen over the entrance/s during the night to keep them in. Take the whole thing home to do the rest. Might even give then a few days to reorient to the new place before disrupting them again. Split the log and transfer into hive.

If the tree forks before you get to the nest then you could possibly use the other side to secure a rope to help lower the log that you don't know how much it is going to weigh. If no fork before the nest, you might want something more than a ladder. Of you just cut the log off and let it fall, there is a chance it could land in such a way all the comb inside will pancake together and you got a big mess and a bunch of dead bees, and could possible loss the queen and all chances of the hive producing another.

[JP]

Yes Sean, if you can cut then lower it to the ground before the transfer it'll be that much easier. If you can get the tree appart without damaging the broodnest, then go in and perform a cut-out. Once its on the ground you will have more control over this thing and more options on dealing with it. Keep the log section positioned like it is when you get it on the ground so you don't get that pancake affect Jerry mentioned. Keep in mind that one option you may use, depending on how big the colony is and complexity of splitting the tree to transfer them, would be to use something like beequick to drive them out of the tree (induced swarm) into waiting super/supers with a frame or two of broodcomb and honey frames if you have the resources. With it on the ground I would consider this option, as I said, depending on your variables such as colony size, and difficulty splitting the tree, etc... because you can cut the tree and with it on the ground you have many options and your chances of getting the queen or driving her out goes way up. This is definitely one I would fool with, because you have the option of doing whatever method is most feasible. Now let's see some pics.


....JP

[Understudy]

Rule #1 on a cut out Have Fun.
Rule #2 Take Pictures especially when they have stung the hell out of you. We need something to laugh at here. ;)

Be prepared for this to be an all day situation. If they have been there for 15 years handle with care. This is a resistant resilent strong hive. Respect the hive.

You may want to get an expert beekeeper to come with you. That is a hive worth grafting the larva out of to make queens with.

The cut out out a trunk of tree is very difficult to do. If there is a way you can put a screen one way escape on and place a hive box over the escape and leave it there for a while so the bees move into the hive box. I would do that. I mean they have been there 15 years what's another month or two. When the queen has started laying in the hive body then move the hive to your yard and place a gold star on it. Sell queen cells to other beekeepers for $100 each and call them SK Gold Star Queens.:)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Jerrymac]

If there is a way you can put a screen one way escape on and place a hive box over the escape and leave it there for a while so the bees move into the hive box. I would do that. I mean they have been there 15 years what's another month or two. When the queen has started laying in the hive body then move the hive to your yard and place a gold star on it.

But there is no guarantee the queen will come out. And you don't get the brood to make a queen with. And you just lost the genetics. 

[Understudy]

If there is a way you can put a screen one way escape on and place a hive box over the escape and leave it there for a while so the bees move into the hive box. I would do that. I mean they have been there 15 years what's another month or two. When the queen has started laying in the hive body then move the hive to your yard and place a gold star on it.

But there is no guarantee the queen will come out. And you don't get the brood to make a queen with. And you just lost the genetics. 

That is correct. But I would prefer to move the queen into a new hive body instead of spilting the wood.

If you can put the hive on tunnel the entrance into the hive box to help encourage the queen to lay in new comb would be the way to go.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Cindi]

Sean, wow!!!  Great fun for you and a chance to get more bees (oops, you gotta watch that one, hee, hee).  You are right, they bee honeybees.  The yellowjackets are all dead right now.  The queen is probably thinking about readying some larvae to raise until they hatch and get old enough to raise more brood.  Then all blinking blazes breaks loose with yellowjackets, eeeewwww.  Have a wonderfully beautiful day, good luck with the cutout, go for it!!!  Cindi

[Brian D. Bray]

Rule #1 on a cut out Have Fun.
Rule #2 Take Pictures especially when they have stung the hell out of you. We need something to laugh at here. ;)

Be prepared for this to be an all day situation. If they have been there for 15 years handle with care. This is a resistant resilent strong hive. Respect the hive.

You may want to get an expert beekeeper to come with you. That is a hive worth grafting the larva out of to make queens with.

The cut out out a trunk of tree is very difficult to do. If there is a way you can put a screen one way escape on and place a hive box over the escape and leave it there for a while so the bees move into the hive box. I would do that. I mean they have been there 15 years what's another month or two. When the queen has started laying in the hive body then move the hive to your yard and place a gold star on it. Sell queen cells to other beekeepers for $100 each and call them SK Gold Star Queens.:)

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Sean, I'm going to make you an offer I don't often make.  As you know I'm handicapped and it's hard for me to get about but I would be willing to come and give you on site advice if You are willing to have a house guest for a few days and can provide transportation both ways.  I don't drive beyond Mount Vernon due to medical considerations.  I can at least take the pictures for you.

Also if you decide to use the queen as a breeder emphasize the Feral Survivor aspect. 

[Sean Kelly]

Wow!  This is all really overwhelming.  The guy seems very ready to take the tree down asap.  I guess the tree is really large and removing the section with the bees inside 15 feet up might be beyond what I can do at this time.  Heck, I don't even own a chainsaw and haven't used one for almost 10 years.  I worked for a logging outfit years ago and if I remember, cutting a tree down that high up was pretty rare.  If we couldn't do it from the ground it was usually left for bigger equipment.
Since the tree has to come down anyway, I'm sure the owner wont care if I carve out parts of the tree to access the hive easier.  So I guess that's always a possibility.
It would be cool to get the queen or at least comb with eggs or young larve so they could raise their own queen.  I like the idea of a "survivor queen" and doing some raising.

Brian, I think having you there would be a real blessing!  Your knowledge alone would be a huge help.  We have a spare bed, but it's extremely uncomfortable.  It's an old Futon that should have been thrown out years ago.  Unfortunately that's all I can really offer.  I'll talk with my wife about it.  Even the drive to Mt. Vernon is still a real long haul from my house.  But man!  Your help would be awesome!

I'm gunna go and check the hive on Sunday and see if this is even something I think I could handle.  If it's beyond me, anyone here wanna take it on?  If not I'll just turn it over to the guys at the Pierce County Beekeepers Association.

I still want to do this really bad, I just don't want to get over my head here.  Getting really nervous.   :-\

Sean Kelly

[Jerrymac]

The reason I suggested cutting anything above the hive off is because even if you start cutting out a space just to get to the hive, without taking the upper part of the tree down, you could weaken the trunk and have the top coming down in an uncontrolled manner. Damaging, killing who knows what.

Another option would be to fell the whole tree. There is a chance the limbs and branches could cushion the fall enough that there wouldn't be a hard jarring affect and the hive might nor get knocked loose.  Then it is all on the ground and you can go at it.

[asprince]

Sean, Could you borrow some construction scaffolds? Just two sections would get you a 4x5 safe w, orking platform 10 - 12 feet up. It would not take 10 minutes to set them up. I would be glad to loan you some but I am 1000 miles away.

Good luck, Steve   

[Cindi]

Sean, oh wow!!!  That was so cool for Brian to offer his assistance, go for it!!!  YOu could find someone to bunk him, you must have a couch if you don't have a spare room.  What a chance of a lifetime to have someone that has been working with bees almost all of their life to come and be a mentor.  YOu are a very lucky man.  I wish that I could have had someone physically come and stay with me to teach me so many things about the bees that I learned in the hardest ways.  Take Brian up on it, by the end of the few days, think of the knowlege that you will have gleaned from Brian.

Oh no.....I just thought of what Brian might feel like when he left your place.  He may not have anything left inside his head to look after his own bees.  Please Sean.....do not pick his brains too hard, hee, hee.

Brian, what a gracious offer to Sean.  Now that is what I call a true to the heart beekeeper.  A person that would be willing to go to such an extent to help out another beekeeper has got to be a very, very special person.  I take my hat off to you, and I say this with deep and true intent.  You will have so much good karma that it will be comin' out yo' ears!!!!  Have the most beautiful and wonderful day, we are lovin' this life we lead.  Cindi

[Kathyp]

understudy, you need to post your cutout supply list as a sticky on this forum so that it doesn't keep getting lost.  it was very helpful to me.  i think i only added a couple of things and i don't remember exactly what they were.  if you post your list, we can add the things that we found useful also.

[Understudy]

understudy, you need to post your cutout supply list as a sticky on this forum so that it doesn't keep getting lost.  it was very helpful to me.  i think i only added a couple of things and i don't remember exactly what they were.  if you post your list, we can add the things that we found useful also.

I will see about doing that later this evening I am trying run Permacomb to the Post Office. It is a very good idea.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Brian D. Bray]

Sean,

I have 2 chain saws and a compound pully.  We are going to need to de-limb the tree to just above the hive entrance.  Then make an 'A" frame or tripod over that from which the compound pully will 1st hold, then hoist and lower the bowl of the tree with the bees in it.  Know where to get some 20 ft 4X4s or alder saplings?   I also have a 1/2 ton come-a-long and few other things you'll need so bring your truck. 

If we do it right we can get the bowl of the tree and leave nothing but fire wood behind.  Once we have the bowl moved to your place we'll worry about getting the bees from tree trunk to hive body. 

[JP]

Ya'll better take pictures so make sure you have a third person or tripod along or we ain't believing ya'll no, not even a little!  ;)

....JP

[Sean Kelly]

Wow!  I just got back from checking the tree out.  It's going to be easier than I originally thought.  The guy who owns the tree already cut all the limbs off and all that's left is a tall stump.  He got all but one limb when he noticed bees coming out of the hive.  He's allergic to bees so that's when he called me.  I took the other limb down with his chain saw just to make it a little easier.

There are three enterances.  The main enterance to the hive is about 10 to 12 feet up, much better than I originally thought.  There's another on the back side which isnt being used any more.  And on the very top where the tree broke off during a windstorm years ago, causing the tree to rot and make these bees a nice cozy home.

The knot on the main enterance is about 3 inches in diameter and 6 inches deep.  With a flashlight I could see the comb down inside, a very dark almost black in color.  Did not see any bees outside the hive but one or two foragers did come in and go down inside.  The owner said the bees were very active and wasnt sure why nothing was going on today.  It was very cold last night and pretty windy this morning but the sun came out today and the wind calmed down.  My bees at home were going to town, so I'm just wondering if it takes the tree longer to warm up cause it's thicker?

I got a close look at one of the bees coming home and she looked just like my Italians, same coloring and everything.  DEFINATELY a honeybee.  Even had full pollen baskets.

My grandfather has some scaffolding that I'm going to use that will put me right at the correct height.  I think what my game plan will be is with a chainsaw, cut open the face of the hive exposing the comb.  Cut the comb out, place it in my frames, and then level the stump off where the bottom of the original hive was.  Then I'll just place the new hive body on top of the stump so the returning bees can come back to their new home.  I'll just leave the new hive there for a couple weeks so they get used to their new home before taking it down.  Seems like an easy plan, right?

When I move the hive, should I wait until night when the bees are all back at home?

And when placing the natural comb inside the frames, should I wire the frames first and just squish the comb into the wires or is there another way?

Very cool and I'm totally excited!!!

I'll post my pics as soon as I get them uploaded!!!

Sean Kelly

[Sean Kelly]

Here's the tree to give you an idea of what I'm working with:



Me taking a peek down the enterance:



Looking down the bee hole.  You can see a couple dead bees down in there.  Sorry, couldnt get a clear shot of the comb:


Here's a "Darwin Award" waiting to happen!  Running a chainsaw over my head, standing on a ladder, with a beehive in front of my face!:


Sean Kelly

[asprince]

First Beekeeper now...............wood BUTCHER!

Great pictures!

Good luck, Steve

[JP]

Sean, see if you can determine where the bottom of the hive is. The tree seems kinda hollow so if the hive doesn't go all the way down, I would cut the tree off below the hive and lower it to the ground. The hollow parts aren't usually that heavy. Then deal with it on the ground.

....JP

[Brian D. Bray]

Sean, see if you can determine where the bottom of the hive is. The tree seems kinda hollow so if the hive doesn't go all the way down, I would cut the tree off below the hive and lower it to the ground. The hollow parts aren't usually that heavy. Then deal with it on the ground.

....JP

That's what I would suggest.  Cut it off at ground level but secured so it doesn't fall over, then work down to the comb from the top.  Once the top part of the comb is exposed would be the time to cut a slab off the front to open the cavity.  Personally, I would cut it down to the top of the comb, cut a hole in a bottom board and seal or screen all the other entrances so the bees are forced to enter and leave through the hive.  After a week of that it might be that they've begun to build comb in the hive.  Then is the time to do the appendectomy on the trunk.

[Jerrymac]

I would not wire the frames and try to squish the comb into it. Just get some rubber bands to hold the comb in the frames. The bees will secure it to the frames.

[Sean Kelly]

Sean, see if you can determine where the bottom of the hive is. The tree seems kinda hollow so if the hive doesn't go all the way down, I would cut the tree off below the hive and lower it to the ground. The hollow parts aren't usually that heavy. Then deal with it on the ground.

....JP

So how do I determine where the bottom of the hive is?  This tree seems to be pretty much still alive and pretty darn solid.  The treebranch I cut off was already budding and I guess before the owner lobbed all the other branches off and discovered the bees, the tree was alive and full of leaves.  I took a 5 cell maglight and tapped on the sides of it, all the way up and didnt find any shallow spots.
My assumption of where the bottom of the hollow might be is where the "alive" branches came out from the trunk about halfway up.  I'm still looking at moving a pretty solid 200+ lb hunk of wood over my head while standing on a ladder.

I like Brian's idea of cutting the top off the tree, down to the comb, and putting a hole in a bottom board, sticking a hive body over the hole and sealing up all the enterences.  Think this would work without taking the whole hive off the trunk?  Heck I just thought I'd tear the whole trunk apart and just rob the comb out, slap it all in some frames, cut the tree down and leave the new hive on the old stump for returning bees to come home to.
The owner is highly allergic to bees, my dad is deathly afraid of bees, my grandfather is too old to be climbing ladders.  I'm pretty much in this by my self.  The easier the better.

Sean Kelly

[Jerrymac]

If you have a long enough drill bit you could start drilling holes from the ground up every six inches or so until you hit a hollow spot. Then determine if there is any hive debris (as in stuff found at bottom of hive) or wax, honey, bee parts, on the bit. 

[asprince]

Could you use a stethoscope and listen for activity? Cut below the sound.

Steve

[JP]

I would do what Jerry has suggested. Steve stethescopes believe it or not have very little use to a person who does removals. I rarely use mine. It probably wouldn't tell you much on this tree. Even on walls and such they are not good at pinpointing the specific area where a hive is located. They pick up on sounds from far off, sounds that interefere with your ability to hone in. They are in a sense too sensitive and at the same time not sensitive enough.

....JP

[Kathyp]

before the folks destroyed the tree and hive, i was going to do one.  i had planned to screen up the hole(s) at night and then (hopefully) take the entire hive section home the next day before trying to transfer to supers.  my thinking was that i would (hopefully) lose fewer bees, feel less rushed, not have panicked people with bees all over the place.....not have to move them twice.

is this an option for you, providing you don't cut into the middle of the hive when you cut the tree :-)?

[Brian D. Bray]

Sean, I have a stethascope.  Also some old brace and bit augers so we can do it both ways.  I still think putting the hive on top for a few days, the coming back and cutting the stump below the hollow and sliding it onto a trailer or back of a pickup is the simplest solutiion. 

[poka-bee]

Sean don't let your wife see your "Darwin" pic!!  I can help if you need me to.  I'm booked Sunday but Sat I can help.  No experience in this area but sturdy back, fetch, carry & hand skills!  Also am not afraid of any animals (except sharks) but have a healthy respect for all & don't get flustered or hysterical, well, not till things are over & have time to think bout "what if"!!  Let me know!  Is the location close by?

Jody

[Kathyp]

i think we need a collection of 'Darwin' pics.  there have been several from members.

[DayValleyDahlias]

Oh wow, I just stumbled onto this thread!  WOWIE....what fun, excitement SK!! Can't wait to hear more!

[JP]

i think we need a collection of 'Darwin' pics.  there have been several from members.

Too bad I don't have pics of me cutting into my leg with a skill saw last Thursday, that woulda been a good one. Twenty stitches and 9 staples later. Healing nicely though.


....JP

[DayValleyDahlias]

Holy Moses JP!  But I see that all day in at work...My first ER patient layed the full length of his anterior thigh open with a chain saw... :shock:  Hope you are quickly on the mend!

[Understudy]

i think we need a collection of 'Darwin' pics.  there have been several from members.

Too bad I don't have pics of me cutting into my leg with a skill saw last Thursday, that woulda been a good one. Twenty stitches and 9 staples later. Healing nicely though.


....JP

Right after Hurricane Francis. I hit my leg witht he chainsaw. 24 stiches most internal.

Someday I will let my wife tell that story.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[DayValleyDahlias]

i think we need a collection of 'Darwin' pics.  there have been several from members.

Too bad I don't have pics of me cutting into my leg with a skill saw last Thursday, that woulda been a good one. Twenty stitches and 9 staples later. Healing nicely though.


....JP

Oops I call that job security  :shock:
Right after Hurricane Francis. I hit my leg witht he chainsaw. 24 stiches most internal.

Someday I will let my wife tell that story.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

[Cindi]

Sharon, are you starting the Darwin quotes, hee, hee, beautiful and awesome day,  Cindi

[DayValleyDahlias]

LOL, how did that happen?

All that talk of bodily injuring from Darwinistic actions, made me think...Job Security!

[Cindi]

Sharon, hee, hee, if I am designated welcoming committee president, then you have to have a role too, hee, hee, only kidding.  Have a beautiful and wonderfully great day, Cindi

[Hayesbo]

Holy Moses JP!  But I see that all day in at work...My first ER patient layed the full length of his anterior thigh open with a chain saw... :shock:  Hope you are quickly on the mend!

I know I am late in this thread. hehe

We called lower extremity lawn/land scaping accidents   "fescue foot"

[Intheswamp]

So...did you get the bees?????

Ed