Commercial beekeeper feeding...

[SteveSC]

Bee Culture magazine had a good article about the Adee family and thier beekeping operation which is the largest in the US.....70,000+ hives.  They have tankers that haul in 1000s of gals. of HFCS for the bees. All their hives have 1 gal. feeder inside and all they do when needed is to pump the HFCS out of the tanker and into the hives - they do this to 1000s of hives every yr..  I never read where they mentioned anything about pollen substitutes - pollen patties ..etc.

Most of us here don't have 1000s or 100s of hives - most of us have 1 - 25 hives to tend to.  I can see where Adee can't afford to use patties on all the hives but they never mentioned losing any hives to starvation using just HFCS.  Never mentioned the need to use anything except HFCS for feeding....  Of course I\we don't know where they winter their hives either - it may be warm all yr...no snow...no below freezing temps...so the need for extra cold weather pollen, etc isn't there for them..

I'm sure there are many advantages that pollen and protein have over HFCS but what if it's just not feasable to go that route....money - time  - equipment are all factors in what we feed our hives. 

Have beekeepers always fed the bees or is it just something we're trying to do to help mother nature along and you know how good we are at helping mother nature....

My questions are:

Is it necessary to use pollen patties - pollen substitutes, etc for feeding or is it just a preference over HFCS.?

Can we not just use the HFCS and feel it's enough or is it just not enough..?


 

[Finsky]

Is it necessary to use pollen patties - pollen substitutes,  

Of course not. But if beekeeper want to accelerate colony build up, researches has made and it is good to do with knowledge.  In my country very few feeds with patty, but almost all believe that sugar feeding is enough to make new bees.

In USA patty formulas were tested in 1977. Beekeepers love to feed all kind of stuff to bees, even sugar syrup all summer along.

In Australia they say that they have now best modern knowledge about feeding. In Nez Zealand they are eager to beed and in Canada.  And all in commercial level.

http://www.ricecrc.org/reader?MIvalObj=3271&doctype=document&MItypeObj=application/pdf&ext=.pdf

http://www.rirdc.gov.au/reports/HBE/05-054.pdf

[TwT]

Im going to shoot from the hip but this is the way I understand it and im sure they feed pollen patties also, honey bees require a variety of nutrients to grow, Although honey, sugar syrup and HFCS provides the simple carbohydrates necessary to generate warmth and to fuel flight, bee's need many more compounds and minerals that are necessary for proper development of young bees from egg to adult and to maintain optimal health and vigour through adult life. Pollen patties are use to boost a colony just like feeding sugar syrup of HFCS and adding patties will boost the population, pollinators need to have good strong hives ready to the orchards when the bloom hits and also queens and package producers in early spring, the reason the people with a lot of hives feed HFCS is you can buy it in bulk cheaper and could you imagine mixing enough sugar syrup for a lot of hives, easier and cheaper to buy HFCS and pumping it out of tanks or drums than to buy sugar and mix syrup..... know that's how I see it and if Im wrong or left something out Im sure I will be corrected ;) ... I have heard pollinators like to feed pollen patties and HFCS in the fall and go into winter with big population and I sure the probably feed most of the winter also, they have to have strong hives when they get to the groves or orchards in early spring.....

[Finsky]

One basic point is that every one is happy when Carniolan have fast spring build up. I found 15 years ago that when I feed Italians in spring with pollen, they have exactly as fast build up like Carniolans.

Italian use to use all they pollen store in autumn and Carniolans have good stores in spring. Carniolan may continue their brood raising until nature gives pollen.

Second reason is that wintered bees die all soon after new bees have emerged. Wintered bees go to forage and die. When yearly summer gives yield, old bees have died and new ones are not in the age of foraging.

If your main yiled is later in summer, colinies grow enough to cacth a good yield.

But still I wonder that most beekepers want taht hives grow fast but they do not want to know how it happens.

**********

Now I try to breed a Italian stock which store a lot pollen in autumn. Pollen is very valuble material.

[SteveSC]

Good information guys...it's appreciated.  I guess I'll just continue feeding the heavy syrup.  The bees seem to be happy - they're surely not starving.  I might try adding some soy flour for protein if I can find it at a reasonable price.

Finsky:  Thanks for the link on  "Fat Bees"  -150 pages of information alot of us can use.

I went out today to check the bees see how much syrup they'd eaten.  It was overcast today - about 50 degs.. Man were those bees in a foul mood - they were in good shape but nasty dispositions. A man needs to wear leather gloves when inspecting bees in overcast, 50 deg. weather..you know what I mean... :shock:

[Cindi]

Ooops.   Sorry, I cannot wrap my head around feeding bees HFCS (high fructose corn syrup).  In all the reading that I have done it has been mentioned over and over to NOT FEED HFCS.  This comes from old books, new books, magazine articles, and so on.  It is not good for the bees, it contains too many impurities.  Why is this used?  I don't get it.

My two cents, I don't feed HFCS, I spend a little bit more to give a little bit better food quality to the bees worthy of being fed well.  Even if I ran 2,000 hives, I would still give them the purer quality of sugar, white....nothing but white sugar and water.

I guess it is all in the mind set, I don't like to buy anything that is sub-standard.  That is my personal preference and I am sticking to it.  Great day. Cindi

[Michael Bush]

Hives don't starve from a lack of pollen.  They just don't rear brood until they have pollen.

[Finsky]

Good information guys...it's appreciated.  I guess I'll just continue feeding the heavy syrup.  The bees seem to be happy - they're surely not starving.  I might try adding some soy flour for protein if I can find it at a reasonable price.

Don't do that. Mere soya has lack of vitamins because it is processed.  That is why Canadians recommend yeast. If you do not make good patty it is better to keep bees on their own. Like Michael says, they need not extra pollen. They start brood rearing when nature gives pollen.

[Cindi]

Brewers' yeast or bakers' yeast is relatively inexpensive.  Take Finsky's advice, no PLAIN SOYA.  Listen and learn.  Great day.  Cindi

[Finsky]

If bees have not good pollen or patty, nurser bees  take nutritients from their own body and their life will be shorter.

If you read Australian reports, you understant that very well.

Alfa alfa has such a pollen that soon whole brooding will stop like during winter. It has lack of some aminoacids and bees cannot make food juice to larvae.

When bee or human make protein in his cells it need raw materials just now or  the job will executed. That is why body need essential aminoacids to syntetisize chains of proteins.

http://www.honeybee.com.au/Library/pollen/nutrition.html

http://nature.ca/genome/03/c/10/03c_13a_e.cfm

[SteveSC]

Cindi..  There might be a misunderstanding...  When I said I'll continue with the heavy syrup I was talking about white sugar syrup not the HFCS.  But then you might have known that and were referring to the Adee process.

As far as using the soy flour for the protein value I was referring to the natural unprocessed soy flour - about 40% protein....sorry for the confussion.   

http://www.fitnessandfreebies.com/food/soy.html

and to think I though keeping a few bees would be simple.. :-D

[Finsky]

As far as using the soy flour for the protein value I was referring to the natural unprocessed soy flour - about 40% protein....sorry for the confussion.   

As far as I know, soy beand should be boiled 2-3 hour that it can be eated. That is process which destoyes many vitamins.

In mall you get soya flour which has 20% fat.  If fat is taken off, you should add food oil in the patty. Bees' food may consist under 7% fat. Otherwise bees become sick.

If soya oil is take off flour is as natural a with oil. When I have read all articles which I have found, I have not seen "natural soya" mentioned.
Professional beekeepers use as cheap material as possible. That is why they prefer soya to yeast.

There is no reason to make bees' nutrition to "art of styles". It has researches many times what is good. If you read those 200 pages you will note that.

When you boil what ever food, it destroyes C-vtamins. That is why escimoes eat raw flesh and fish.

All is said in internet. Read only recommendations of authorities.  Key words bee nutrition / pollen patty / pollen substituent

 

[Cindi]

Sorry, I still don't get it.  Why do you put soya flour in pollen patty.  My understanding is that it is not needed.  Sugar, brewers or bakers yeast, pollen is excellent food.  Great day.  Cindi

I must know WHY....it is important for me to understand everything.

[SteveSC]

Cindi..  I don't put soy flour in protein patties - I've never made a protein patty.  I just mention that I might do that just because of the % of protein in natural soy flour..  I've been told since that processed soy flour is not a good idea but the jury might still be out on the natural unprocess soy flour.

From all I've read and been told, the brewer's and\or baker's yeast is a better choice as you stated.

Ya'll please don't pound on me any more, I feel dumb enough already.. :?  :-D :? :-D

[Cindi]

<Ya'll please don't pound on me any more, I feel dumb enough already.. :?  :-D :? :-D

Steve, please don't feel like you are being pounded on.  I am sure that was not anyone intention.

You should have seen the list of questions that I composed during my first 8 months of beekeeping.  I had sat with my pen in hand for months with every single question that I could think of.  I compiled all these notes in the December after I had begun with the bees (which was April).  I had corresponded to a guy who owned a big commercial operation and he said to ask any questions that I feel like I needed asked.  So, I sent this guy the big long list.  I think it was about 104 questions.

I told this fellow that I knew the questions I asked were many and that proably by the time that he had time to reply to them I would have found many of the answers.  He never returned any answers to my questions.  Man did I feel like an idiot.  I must have totally combubulated this guy.  I waited and waited, for a couple of months, and finally figured out that he was never going to respond.  I understand.  I was not upset.  I just figured that I overwhelmed him and that he was very busy with his operation.  I am an easy going person, so it ran off my back.

Now, a while ago I re-read all the questions that I had sent to this poor soul.  I had an answer to every single one.  This was done on my own with all the internet research, reading books, magazines, anything that I could get my hands on. Then finally this wonderful forum.  I have been beekeeping and learning now for almost two years.  I can honestly say, that with all the courses that I have taken, the reading that I have done, the beyond fabulous help from forum members, that I finally feel like I have a pretty good grasp on what goes on with the apiary and many aspects of beekeeping.  BUT IT HAS TAKEN ME TWO YEARS.  That is a long time.

I feel relatively comfortable coming into this season with all my acquired knowledge.  So Steve, the best words that I can possibly say to you is, ask as many questions as you want.  You will get numerous answers, some will make sense, others will not.  You have to take your time and compile all informations in your mind and then make your own decisions about what you will or will not implement into your bee life.

There is an old saying, that ask 12 beekeepers a question, and you will get 12 different answers. Everyone has their own way of beekeeping, probably no two are alike.  YOu will form your own opinions, listen and learn, implement and have success.

I have had terrible mistakes that I have made with my bees.  I do not regret one of them one little bit.  Any failure I consider a learning curve, one that hopefully I will not repeat.  So failure is success, if you look at it in a different light.  Successes, well, they remain unsaid.

Steve, ask all the questions you want, I repeat this.  Never, ever feel that you are asking a stupid question, the real reason is:  there are many, many new beekeepers out there that have questions that to them may feel stupid too and are afraid to ask.  So ask any question, even if you feel it dumb, stupid, intelligent, intuitive, the list goes on.  Ask away. 

Look at me.  I still ask questions all the time, I don't care if people think that the question is dumb, I ask anyways, someone will think it is a bright question (LOL) and needs response.  I answer any question that I think that I can give a reasonably accurate answer to.  I sometimes just put my 2 cents in (isn't that a great saying).  These two cents can be wrong too, but rest assured, there are always more informed people that will correct me if I am wrong, and this I am grateful for, for I listen and learn.

Hope this makes you feel a little bit better.  Become an active member of our forum, you will love it and it will be a resource that is more help than you could believe in your wildest dreams.  Great day Steve.  Cindi

[wayne]

  In a commercial migrant situation feeding is a more cost effective way to go. All honey is pulled and sold and the bees fed HFCS as a substitute.   It's a dollar a pound honey against a few cents a pound HFCS.
  Most over winter in as mild an area as possible for as short a time as possible. It isn't a long time for most of them.
  Feeding patties isn't necessary, again because of the short time involved and the added cost and labor.
  A good read is the book "Following the Bloom" by Douglas Whynott. It gives alot of insite into the moves and actions of migrants. I can see why they cut where they can.


wayne