Drawing comb

[Kris^]

With nearly two boxes of bees, all on drawn comb, would it make sense at this time to put a third box with foundation on?  The reason would be allow them to drawn comb in the third box, to give one colony a head start when I split later on this spring.  Or would the extra space just cause the existing colony problems?  They are being fed 1:1 syrup right now and getting pollen.

My plan when the honey flow starts is to split the hive as has been suggested, separating them with one hive immediately going to two deeps and the other with a comb honey super.

-- Kris

[Beth Kirkley]

I would say adding another box would be a good idea. I'd like for others to reply also though. I'm just not sure what your weather is like up there in NJ. I'm guessing you wouldn't put the super on until a nice day (not freezing and windy). I'm thinking that if they're still trying to stay in a cluster, that opening the hive would disturb them.

But if they seem active, I certainly would add it.

Beth

[Finsky]

With nearly two boxes of bees, all on drawn comb, would it make sense at this time to put a third box with foundation on?  The reason would be allow them to drawn comb in the third box, to give one colony a head start when I split later on this spring.  Or would the extra space just cause the existing colony problems?  They are being fed 1:1 syrup right now and getting pollen.

Seems that you have the same bees as at autumn. Healthy colony.

If your spring has just started, and they begin tp raise larvas when they get protein. During first  3 weeks bees can raise about 5 brood frames. When new bees hatch themselves, colony gets plenty of young feeder workers.  At the same time the winters bees died very quickly when they go to out works.

Usually it is better to put hive into one box. Hive developes so better .

After 4-5 weeks it is time to look if they need more space. I use to put new space to the lowest.

You make a big mistake if you put foundations or more space to bees. They are not able to draw combs. When real honeyflow starts  they can build 2-3 foundations, but not a box.

When honeyflow starts, hive has any more winter bees. They are gone.
 

My plan when the honey flow starts is to split the hive as has been suggested, separating them with one hive immediately going to two deeps and the other with a comb honey super.

When honeyflows starts, it is better that hive is so big as possible. If you do not want honey, it is bettre to split hive, but I do not know why?

I try to raise my hive to 4 deep to the beginning of June that I get dandelion honey and honey from gardens.

If I split the hive at that time, it takes a month that hive is able again to get  surplus honey from field.

If the starts to raise queen larvas, it is time to split hive or do something which stops the swarming intention.  In Finland tehre is 2-3 weeks gap in flooming and then bees starts swarming. If there is no flower gap, they just continue honey gathering.

[thegolfpsycho]

I would let them keep building up to the flow, and watch them for signs of swarming.   Make the cutdown at the front of the flow.  Remember, your going to be giving most of the open brood, along with the queen to the new colony.  1 box will probably be enough for them to get going, and you can add a super when they need it.  The original colony is going to be jammed in 1 box also, with the comb honey super on top.  Most of the foragers will be left there, and any that went with the split will return.  Leaving one frame with eggs, they  will start raising a queen and without 1,000s of larvae to feed, they should be able to pack away alot of honey, as well as make sure their queen larvae gets plenty of royal jelly.  It's critical to keep them crowded up, and swarming shouldn't be an issue while they raise a new queen.  There are a bunch of books on producing section honey out there and I would suggest picking one up.  Like everything else in beekeeping, there are many ways to get something done.

[Robo]

I think it is very unlikely that they will draw comb until the weather warms up.  They will most like store the syrup away in the two drawn boxes,  and if you continue to feed, they very well may become sugar honey bound.

I know there was a post the other day that said you couldn't feed too much, but I disagree.  If there is no natural flow yet, and they continue to take syrup, they can become bound.  It is very important you keep an eye on them while you feed.  If they become bound, you are just reducing your bees when there is a nectar flow and you need them the most.

[Finsky]

I think it is very unlikely that they will draw comb until the weather warms up.  They will most like store the syrup away in the two drawn boxes,  and if you continue to feed, they very well may become sugar honey bound.

I know there was a post the other day that said you couldn't feed too much, but I disagree.  If there is no natural flow yet, and they continue to take syrup, they can become bound.  It is very important you keep an eye on them while you feed.  If they become bound, you are just reducing your bees when there is a nectar flow and you need them the most.

Rob you totally right. When bees get food ouside, it speed up brood as much as hive can keep them warm.  There is no use to feed them sugar all the time.  

I have speeded my hives 12 years with pollen patty. I continue it  1,5 months. Now, when I took into use terrarium heaters I can see that the temperature of hive is minimum factor in brood rearing.  With protein and with warming hive developes 3 times faster, but only the big ones, one box or stronger. Little ones I kick up with brood frames which I take from biggest hives.

You have non insulated boxes and surely cold boxes hinders the growth of colony.

When last summer it was 2 weeks cold and bees cannot go out, the brood area dropped to half even if I had protein feeding and warming all the time. When I took my 4 largest hive outer pastures and without warming and but I feeded them, brood rearing stopped very badly. Some reported that in their hives 90% of brood vanished.

Why I am telling this.  To get optimal spring development bees need warm, protein food (pollen), inspiration from flowers and a lot of feeder bees.

With this hive is ready to get early honey yield.  Many are angry with me because they do not want to work so much with bees. They say here: THIS IS UNNATURAL!.  Of course it is, and it must be. So you have difference with skill and smaller skill.

I give now lessons concerning spring feeding and the name of lesson is "two fold honey with same hives".   But that is not nice; hard work to sell honey.

And to learn this had taken from mee 12 years it is not easy to others. Don't be astonishes if it does not work at once.

Also you can see that there are many advices on the contrary of this, but I just told my experiences.

But to get 200 lbs honey per hive, it is not easy. To get 60 lbs, you need to do almost nothing.  To keep 10 or 30 hives and you get  same volume of honey, there is also big difference.

[firetool]

So if some one is having to start a hive with just foundation. It would not be a good idea to feed to much sugar water to them. Becouse they will not have enough room for brood. I am asking if this is right.
 I need to know what to do to help them draw out the comb in the foundation. I am giving them pollen patties and sugar water and have suppled fresh water close to the hive. What do I need to do to get this hive going in the right diretion? I though they would just draw out the comb if you put it in there hive. It sounds like you can couse more problems by providing to much foundation.

Any help please,

Brian

[thegolfpsycho]

If there is no flow, they won't draw the wax.  We feed to simulate a nectar flow and get them drawing wax and rearing brood.  If blossom are busting out all over, I would still put some syrup on them to supplement what they are gathering.  They won't take the syrup unless they aren't getting enough nectar to do what they need to.  Once they get the box drawn out, you can add another one for them to work on.  Just don't put it all on at once.  They might chimney up the center if you do that.  A lot depends on the time of year, the nectar flow, etc.

[firetool]

Thank you golfpsycho, just one more thing. When they fill up the one brood box, do I add the new one above or below the current hive box?

Brian

[thegolfpsycho]

I have always put the new box on top of the brood chamber.  You don't have to have a double deep brood chamber to make honey.  With a good queen laying wall to wall in a deep, there are alot of bees in the colony. And I would stop feeding once the nectar flow begins and they have some drawn comb to work with.

[Jerrymac]

Firetool I don't think you need to worry about the pollen , My bees are out everyday gathering pollen.

[Robo]

So if some one is having to start a hive with just foundation. It would not be a good idea to feed to much sugar water to them.

Not neccessarily.  The original question was adding a super of foundation onto an established hive which already had 2 boxes of drawn comb.  Bees will not draw excess comb (ie additonal supers) when the conditions are not right (warm weather, etc.)

Starting with just foundation is a totally different beast.  The bees have no comb to lay any brood in and will be forced to draw comb.  In this case, you should be providing as much syrup as the bees will take.

Whenever feeding syrup, you must watch them if they start taking large quanities.  You don't want them to just store it away and block brood rearing. As long as they are using it to build comb or feed, keep giving it.

[firetool]

Thank you robo that is what I was weired about. I will look in on them the next warm day we have to see if they are drawwing out the comb or not.

Thanks again,

Brian

[Jerrymac]

Here is where I get my weather info;

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/TXZ035.php?warncounty=TXC303&city=Lubbock

[Robo]

Here is where I get my weather info;

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/data/forecasts/TXZ035.php?warncounty=TXC303&city=Lubbock

Here is where I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance http://....

No, just kidding.   Thanks for the link,  that is much better (quicker) than weather.com with all the darn ads.

[Jerrymac]

You're really into that commercial ain'cha.

[Robo]

Can't help myself,  everytime I see a post that is off-topic,  it just comes to mind :lol:

[Jerrymac]

Me!?  :shock:  Off topic???? NO WAY!!!

[Jay]

Brian, a good rule of thumb for adding the next box is the 7/10 rule. When the girls have drawn 7 of the 10 frames in one box, add the next box on top. That way you avoid the chimney effect as golfpsycho mentioned and they have the room to move up if they need/want it. :D

[Finsky]

Thank you golfpsycho, just one more thing. When they fill up the one brood box, do I add the new one above or below the current hive box?
Brian

When hive has only one brood box at spring, I allways add the second below. I have had difficulties with chalk brood and when you put it one, bees must at once to warm upp 100% more space. When you put box  below, they can take the space into use as they need it.  Also first you can take food cakes down and you give empty frames to brood box.

It is very different  at spring and at summer. At spring night temperature is the thing which commands.

I know that allmost everybody put it above but just try and you will see!

And your's uninsulated boxes.

How much you have temperature by nights  there?