Author Topic: Does bees at the top=out of feed? (Read 4261 times)

windfall · « **on:** February 06, 2012, 03:28:27 pm »

I see this frequently referenced. That the bees work up and at the top means they are out of feed.
But I also see folks talking about the cluster staying in the top, sometimes all winter.

I ask because today we finally got some mild weather with sun....45F
I opened started to crack the top real slow on one of the hives still living and bees start scooting out and the buzz is loud. They are obviously right there on the top.... sun side at least.
I let it back down right off. I really was not prepared for that level of activity. I had intended to take a visual check for stores because the hive felt a lot lighter than it did in fall;not empty but not what it was...but I still don't have much of a feel for weight. I never had the top open more than 3/8" so I did not get a look.

Now what to do. 25-35f is coming back tomorrow, hard cold (0) a few days after that. I do have lots of frames of stores from a deadout earlier. Just add another box to the stack. Should I wait till it gets cold so as to disturb them less....very few are actually flying around.
Or just assume that is where they went on the nice day and stay the heck away from things.

The hive is 2-8frame deeps, which were a fall combine of 2 separate hives. Russian hybrids.

Finski · « **Reply #1 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:51:31 pm »

.
If you check the hive, it should be at least 45F that those bees, which start to flye, can return to home.
In cold temp bees' antennae freeze first and they do not find odor of the hive..

Use a little bit smoke when you open the cover. Normally bees try to defend their hive and that is why they try to jump onto your eyes.
And move slowly your hands.

windfall · « **Reply #2 on:** February 06, 2012, 03:59:00 pm »

Thanks Finski.
I thought about tlighting the smoker but....foolishly thought they would be sedate.
If I need 45 then I need to do it now. 46 at the moment, and will be dropping steady from here on out.

I tried to mock up a full hive with my deadout stores and some boxes...just to compare the wieght. It actually did not feel all that much lighter, but my confidence to comapre is iffy at best.

backyard warrior · « **Reply #3 on:** February 06, 2012, 04:32:29 pm »

when in doubt put fodant on top of the inner cover then you will rest well at nite knowing its there if they need it Chris

BeeManiac · « **Reply #4 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:39:38 pm »

When in doubt, feed. It could keep them alive which is worth how much these days? 100$ replacement fee. You can open it in 30 degrees and sunny as long as you dont spend more than 15 -25 seconds doing it. throw on a deep super with heavy sugar water or a shallow supper with fondant or winter patties and a pollen patty is a great thing to throw in too while you have it open to help boost their numbers before spring. Good luck!!!

organicfarmer · « **Reply #5 on:** February 06, 2012, 06:50:50 pm »

Add your extra hive body/super from the other hive you had (deadout). Here is the best food for them. As long as the other one did not die from a disease!!

Absolutely no syrup no matter how heavy. Unless you want your bees to die of dysentry.

Fondant or dry sugar as an insurance. As someone mentionned, they'll take it if they need it and you can sleep at night.

Russians will do well in cold, on small cluster often. Scary small. And boom in the spring.

windfall · « **Reply #6 on:** February 06, 2012, 07:35:39 pm »

I appreciate the feedback folks, and I suspect the capped syrup will go on a couple days from now...supposed to be sunny and low 30's, that is the best we will see in the foreseeable future.

But I still want to get at the heart of my question: If the bees are at the top does that provide conclusive (or at least strong) evidence that they are out of stores?

I took some more time and set up a dummy hive in the shop with 2-8 frame deeps of capped syrup (from deadouts) with hive stand placing about the same as on the hive in question. Then did the heft feel thing. It actually didn't feel all that different from the living hive....certainly nothing like empty. Now I do understand that they can have left food below them on the outside which they won't reach in the hard cold, but on days like this relatively active don't they move stores around?

I just feel like I have read a lot about how clusters can sometimes spend all winter on the top. Mostly I hear this from folks who don't like top entrances and argue that is where it is warmest (when it is warm at all). This hive doesn't have a top entrance but a quilt box instead.....

If they have enough stores, am I not doing them a disservice by adding another deeps worth of space....I mean there is a reason they get "crowded down" int he fall?

BlueBee · « **Reply #7 on:** February 06, 2012, 08:50:10 pm »

Quote

If the bees are at the top does that provide conclusive (or at least strong) evidence that they are out of stores?

I say no. They can be at the top and have kilos of stores under them. The problem is they don’t usually move back down to use those stores in the winter. When things warm up they will work down consuming stores.

As for moving around stores on warm days, I can’t say; don’t know. I have seen the clusters in my foam nucs move around to get to new stores. One nuc has actually moved down! I was a little surprised by that. Then again they are 80F inside.

As for a top entrance persuading the bees to avoid the top. I haven’t seen that. My foam hives with top entrances are packed with bees at the top of the hive. Too many for me to take off the top and inspect until we get a warmer day. I’ll probably throw on a candy board for insurance when such a day arrives.

BlueBee · « **Reply #8 on:** February 06, 2012, 08:58:28 pm »

Quote

If they have enough stores, am I not doing them a disservice by adding another deeps worth of space....I mean there is a reason they get "crowded down" int he fall?

Supposedly a smaller wood box is warmer than a bigger wood box. I think Derekm and his calculator might take issue with that hypothesis, but that is the reasoning. I like the candy board top better myself because the thermals should be better and the food is directly over their heads.

Vance G · « **Reply #9 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:06:56 pm »

When the bees are at the top of the box and it suddenly gets cold as Finland and the cluster contracts, They can starve to death because they are unable to move down to honey that they may have been bringing in before cluster had to shrink to maintain temperature of cluster. Since heat rises, thay have a better shot at moving up if the temperature drops. In 1979 when I kept bees in North Dakota, it was below freezing for 90 days in a row that winter. Most of the time it was well below zero. An awful lot of hives had an empty tunnel in the two full boxes of honey with the bees dead on the cover. I just put sugar bricks over my bees that had reached the top because if the temperature suddenly dropped for a month like it very possibly could. My bees won't die as their cluster contracts away from supplies.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #10 on:** February 06, 2012, 11:13:48 pm »

We use long hives so I have no direct experience, but I've read many accounts of bees spending the winter at the top of the hive stack. I think they may have better success at that in a warmer climate where they can cluster at the top and transfer stores to their location on warmer days. That's what they do in our long hives, where they sit at the warmest spot.... just under the cover.... and move stores as needed.

The whole strategy of moving the cluster up as winter progresses has always seemed counter-intuitive to me since the bees are constantly losing heat as it rises into the upper boxes. You would think that they would want to stay where it's warmest and that that strategy would minimize consumption of honey. But I guess if it's extremely cold for long periods and you have to just sit on your honey and move the cluster slowly upward, then that's what you do.

Michael Bush · « **Reply #11 on:** February 07, 2012, 12:47:00 am »

Mine have always spent all winter at the top and others in my locale report the same.

windfall · « **Reply #12 on:** February 07, 2012, 08:47:50 am »

I appreciate the input everybody. At the very least I am hearing that simply being "at the top" doesn't really relate to available stores...but can perhaps tie into what the bees actually have access to in hard cold.
Part of me says go ahead and throw the extra box on....but if the top is where they like it, wouldn't they just move right up to the top of the new box? In which case all I am really doing is adding space and disturbing them a bunch when I should stay the heck out?

For those who do commonly see the bees on top all winter, are there any other indicators you would use beside weight to induce you to supply additional feed?

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #13 on:** February 07, 2012, 08:55:43 am »

Quote from: Michael Bush on February 07, 2012, 12:47:00 am

Mine have always spent all winter at the top and others in my locale report the same.

Michael.... as I recall, you have said your bees in horizontal hives do move along the box as the winter progresses. So your bees exhibit more winter mobility in long hives than in Langstroths? I find that very amusing since our local bee supply business told us long hives would not work since the bees could not move in winter like they do in Langs. :-D

Bees in our long hives stay at the site of the fall brood nest and transfer honey as needed.

FRAMEshift · « **Reply #14 on:** February 07, 2012, 09:09:00 am »

Quote from: windfall on February 07, 2012, 08:47:50 am

For those who do commonly see the bees on top all winter, are there any other indicators you would use beside weight to induce you to supply additional feed?

The most useful indicator would be to put some dry sugar over the cluster on newspaper. (We spray ours with a mist of water to make a crust.) See the sticky on the Mountain Camp method or read Michael Bush's web site. Even in cold weather you can lift the lid to take a peak and make sure there is still sugar on the newspaper and add more if needed.

Vance G · « **Reply #15 on:** February 07, 2012, 10:41:40 am »

If the super of honey is full, it would be a good insurance policy but the mountain camp sugar will work too. My best producing hive from last season has a large cluster and is still a good six inches below the top of the upper hive body. Most of the rest are on the sugar on top of the frames or in it. Why the difference, I do not know. I am just reporting what I see. I have 2 1/2" rims on to allow room for the sugar and a couple are hugely clustered hanging from the cover! They are still in contact with the frames and sugar below, but I fear for them if it would get really cold.

backyard warrior · « **Reply #16 on:** February 07, 2012, 04:58:17 pm »

Vance i have 18 hives and have 1 or 2 that are in the bottom deep. If they pan out to be great hives i will breed from them. They have proven to be hygenic and productive and are wintering on little stores. Id like to not feed them like most of the hives. As far as for the other beek, putting another box on top i wouldnt do that keep your open space inside the hive to a minimum. Just put fondant on top and let them be bees. They will use it if they need it Chris

Michael Bush · « **Reply #17 on:** February 08, 2012, 12:20:49 am »

>Michael.... as I recall, you have said your bees in horizontal hives do move along the box as the winter progresses.

Yes.

> So your bees exhibit more winter mobility in long hives than in Langstroths?

Yes.

>I find that very amusing since our local bee supply business told us long hives would not work since the bees could not move in winter like they do in Langs.

I find it amazing more than amusing... myths seem so easily perpetuated...

T Beek · « **Reply #18 on:** February 08, 2012, 03:36:51 pm »

No need for smoke this time of year but I always wear a veil whenever its above freezing and I 'must' take a look.

I've also had bees clustered at the top come Spring and have a near full super of honey below them :?. The bees in my Long Hive have even been observed with drilled tunnels through their comb leading directly to other frames of honey at the back of their hive, something Old langstroth himself recommended for beekeepers using his Langs.

They (bees) DO adapt very well.

thomas

windfall · « **Reply #19 on:** February 08, 2012, 11:53:32 pm »

Thanks again all for the input.

Frame shift,
The bees in my longhive are also on top, right over the frames they were brooding on last fall. If they live I will let you know where they end up in a few months.

Thomas,
I remember you mentioning the holes you had in your longhive frames way back last winter when I was starting to ask about them. At least in the fall I observed no such voids in the combs. Except for 2 frames I intentionally modified with some slats in the middle a bee space apart...they left that void/passage open. I had considered modifying all the frames in the longhive that way to allow the cluster easier movement laterally through the "walls" of comb. But those with experience convinced me it was unnecessary at best and might cause a mess of burr comb problems. No problems, but I will still believe it may be unnecessary. Especially if the cluster stays on the top.