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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 05:27:00 pm

Title: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 05:27:00 pm
OK, if ya’ll want a thread to debate wintering I’ll start a new one.  I don’t care if you go off topic or not; that always happens anyway.

First off, T Beek is absolutely right to be concerned about insulated hives turning into refrigerators.  I have seen that happen on numerous hives and nucs in my bee yard this winter.  Insulation is only a positive thing if the box has a lot of bees in it.  If the bee numbers have fallen too low (due to varroa losses, or other losses) an insulated hive will act as a freezer.  There is NO DOUBT about that.

I had 25mm thick foam hives with ice in them during our last warm up to 44F (6C).  They were ice cold inside.  That happened because the number of bees in the box had fallen too low and the foam keeps out any solar gains.  I had other 25mm thick foam boxes with more bees that were toasty warm.  The only variable between ice cold and toasty warm is how many bees you have.  Too few bees and you might as well winter them in a freezer. :(  

Once an insulated hive gets cold, it’s a losing battle for the bees because of the heat capacity (thermal mass) of all that ice cold honey.  It takes too much energy to unfreeze all that honey.  The 10 to 20 watts of heat the bees can generate aren’t going to cut it.  You either need solar gain (like a wrapped wood hive) or electric heat.  On a sunny day, the heat from the sun on the surface of a wrapped bee hive is WAY more watts of energy than what the bees can ever generate.   Hundreds of watts vs tens of watts.

I’m sticking with 38mm thick foam hives for my bees.  Done right 38mm foam works very well in Michigan if your hives are full of bees.  25mm foam is just too thin for some of my nucs in Michigan.  I’ve got 4 frame medium nucs in 38mm of foam that are still doing fine while a lot of my 6 frame 25mm nucs froze during one of our bitter cold nights (0F/-17C).  

The way to tell if your insulation is acting like a freezer or an oven is to check the temperature inside.  The temp inside a foam hive with a sufficient ball of bees will be toasty warm.  If it’s not toasty warm, you have good reason to be worried. :(      

Let the flaming begin  ;)  
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 05:36:21 pm
OK, if ya’ll want a thread to debate wintering I’ll start a new one.  I don’t care if you go off topic or not; that always happens anyway.

First off, T Beek is absolutely right to be concerned about insulated hives turning into refrigerators.  I have seen that happen on numerous hives and nucs in my bee yard this winter.  Insulation is only a positive thing if the box has a lot of bees in it.  If the bee numbers have fallen too low (due to varroa losses, or other losses) an insulated hive will act as a freezer.  There is NO DOUBT about that.

Pure nonsense. Oh my goodness!!!  I can not win stupids in debating. NO DOUBT!

Every single year 2 brood hives deminish so that the colony occupyes only one box. I have not seen a slightes sign about freezer.
It may be half box too, and nothing to do with freezer.
.


.
.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 05:41:39 pm
Well, that didn't take long  :)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 05:43:16 pm
Once an insulated hive gets cold, it’s a losing battle for the bees because of the heat capacity (thermal mass) of all that ice cold honey. It takes too much energy to unfreeze all that honey.  The 10 to 20 watts of heat the bees can generate aren’t going to cut it.  You either need solar gain (like a wrapped wood hive) or electric heat.  On a sunny day, the heat from the sun on the surface of a wrapped bee hive is WAY more watts of energy than what the bees can ever generate.   Hundreds of watts vs tens of watts.


Now Blubee. Stop drinking at once. I have never seen that king of carbage.  What you say, if it is true, none of hives in Finland survive over winter.

.Your sun stories are not from this planet.

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 05:54:28 pm
My observations come from planet Earth.  

It truly amazes me that you have not observed that insulation can turn something into a freezer!  Do you know what freezers are made of?  INSULATION!  

Haven’t you ever walked into an unheated (or under heated) insulated house in the winter and discovered it was much colder inside than outside?  Compare that to walking into a greenhouse on a sunny winter day!  

Insulation ONLY works to warm things up if the energy source inside is greater than the energy source outside.  Otherwise it is a freezer.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 12, 2013, 05:55:00 pm
 bees in tight cluster do not heat the hive --they heat each other
the bees know that there must be open empty cells that they
use as a generation point this heats honey around and next to the frame they
occupy-bees make habitat inclusive to the cluster they dont try to heat whole house
RDY-B-- wondering how a iglue works   :? :lol: 8-)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 05:59:14 pm
If the bees only heat the cluster, then why are my foam hives (with big balls of bees) toasty warm to the touch while it is below freezing here? 

I did slip on the ice today, but I didn’t hit my head  :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 06:02:00 pm
bees in tight cluster do not heat the hive --they heat each other
the bees know that there must be open empty cells that they
use as a generation point this heats honey around and next to the frame they
occupy-bees make habitat inclusive to the cluster they dont try to heat whole house
RDY-B-- wondering how a iglue works   :? :lol: 8-)

So it goes.

If you measure the temp of inner cover from upwards, when cluster is under the cover, temp may be 20C in the centre and 8C in cover corners.

In autumn a hive uses only 1 kg sugar to heat themselves one month.
When a hive starts brooding, it consumes 3 kg in one week.

.
.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 06:03:54 pm
Hive walls act as freezener? Mad idea because bees procude the heat. We have 4 winter months that you do not much see the sun.
Just now sun angle is 14 degree and hives are inside snow. It is same as in London 21.12.
 

The lower the angle of the sun, the more heat that will get absorbed by vertical objects like bee hives.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 06:05:02 pm
If the bees only heat the cluster, then why are my foam hives (with big balls of bees) toasty warm to the touch while it is below freezing here? 

I did slip on the ice today, but I didn’t hit my head  :-D


Do it again that happy hour continues on forum

.Have you considered to keep a helmet?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 06:08:11 pm


The lower the angle of the sun, the more heat that will get absorbed by vertical objects like bee hives.

You do not understand much about sun. Hive is inside snow and sun is not shining,  - here.

Row of beehives
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_xUyeDeAF3d8/S3vJyAluhYI/AAAAAAAAB-s/URD9naAXlw8/s320/12022010+Tapsan+pihalta+(2).jpg)

Sun is shining
(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ymOM0hX6oJo/UMceXgbHtiI/AAAAAAAAATE/ISUdped8EIs/s1600/pes%C3%A4t+hangessa4+ari.jpg)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 06:17:57 pm
I think you just proved my point.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_reflection (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angle_of_reflection)

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 06:36:45 pm
 

Haven’t you ever walked into an unheated (or under heated) insulated house in the winter and discovered it was much colder inside than outside?  Compare that to walking into a greenhouse on a sunny winter day!  



Ever? My age is 66 y. I have a unheated summer cottage. I have 2 greenhouses too.

Sunny winter day yes. But sun does not keep hives warm, its bees which eate sugar.

In single wall wooden hive bees consume 50% more sugar than in insulated hive.

When I was about 7 years old, we had quite poor heating system in our house.
In the morning it was about 10C in the kitchen when we woke up to dribk morning tea.
The door was closed that heat stayed better in bed rooms.

During  sauna bath we use to swim in snow.

(http://img.mtv3.fi/mn_kuvat/mtv3/studio55/artikkelit/2011/12/1282011.jpg)

We do not understand much about cold here. We just are here. Poor theories, sorry

(http://www.pyhaselanavantouimarit.fi/kuvat/pipoporukka-avanto_web.jpg)

.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 12, 2013, 06:56:16 pm
If the bees only heat the cluster, then why are my foam hives (with big balls of bees) toasty warm to the touch while it is below freezing here? 

I did slip on the ice today, but I didn’t hit my head  :-D

* toasty warm* --bee cluster is not air tight- :lol:--but it is a means of survival
what is more important --the fact that the bee clusters or the r value of Insulation???
 maybe we should ask a eskimo-- ;) RDY-B
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 07:02:55 pm
,


One beekeeper here has just measured temperatus of hives, clusters and out temps.

http://mehilainen.foorumit.fi/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=319&start=50 (http://mehilainen.foorumit.fi/viewtopic.php?f=117&t=319&start=50)


some examples

.date...........out .....free hive air.......cluster

15.1.03........-15C......11C...............26C
17.1.  ......... - 17C.......4C................24C

4.2............... -3C........9C.................20C
6.2............... -11C..... 8C..................20C


More here http://postimage.org/image/e93ch5g4v/ (http://postimage.org/image/e93ch5g4v/)

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 07:07:32 pm

 maybe we should ask a eskimo-- ;) RDY-B

Bluebee have asked from  eskimo, and they said that their homes are like freezener.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 07:18:04 pm
Of course their homes are like freezers!  You mean to tell me that in your 66 years you never made an igloo out of snow?  I have, and YES, they are like freezers.

Sometimes I wonder if Finski is actually posting from somewhere in the tropics?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 12, 2013, 07:24:07 pm
I decided to break out my electric heaters to boost the warmth (and early brooding) in a couple of my hives where the number of bees have dwindled to the point where the hives are acting like freezers.

Would you care to guess what happens in a 38mm thick foam hive when you add in 36 watts of electric heat?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 12, 2013, 07:29:23 pm
I was just going to ask what you would do then, but I just saw your last post about the heater.  How many watts would you advise per hive? 

Has anybody used the rolls of fiberglass insulation around their hives? 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 12, 2013, 07:29:55 pm
OK, if ya’ll want a thread to debate wintering I’ll start a new one.  I don’t care if you go off topic or not; that always happens anyway.

First off, T Beek is absolutely right to be concerned about insulated hives turning into refrigerators.  I have seen that happen on numerous hives and nucs in my bee yard this winter.  Insulation is only a positive thing if the box has a lot of bees in it.  If the bee numbers have fallen too low (due to varroa losses, or other losses) an insulated hive will act as a freezer.  There is NO DOUBT about that.

I had 25mm thick foam hives with ice in them during our last warm up to 44F (6C).  They were ice cold inside.  That happened because the number of bees in the box had fallen too low and the foam keeps out any solar gains.  I had other 25mm thick foam boxes with more bees that were toasty warm.  The only variable between ice cold and toasty warm is how many bees you have.  Too few bees and you might as well winter them in a freezer. :(  

Once an insulated hive gets cold, it’s a losing battle for the bees because of the heat capacity (thermal mass) of all that ice cold honey.  It takes too much energy to unfreeze all that honey.  The 10 to 20 watts of heat the bees can generate aren’t going to cut it.  You either need solar gain (like a wrapped wood hive) or electric heat.  On a sunny day, the heat from the sun on the surface of a wrapped bee hive is WAY more watts of energy than what the bees can ever generate.   Hundreds of watts vs tens of watts.

I’m sticking with 38mm thick foam hives for my bees.  Done right 38mm foam works very well in Michigan if your hives are full of bees.  25mm foam is just too thin for some of my nucs in Michigan.  I’ve got 4 frame medium nucs in 38mm of foam that are still doing fine while a lot of my 6 frame 25mm nucs froze during one of our bitter cold nights (0F/-17C).  

The way to tell if your insulation is acting like a freezer or an oven is to check the temperature inside.  The temp inside a foam hive with a sufficient ball of bees will be toasty warm.  If it’s not toasty warm, you have good reason to be worried. :(      

Let the flaming begin  ;)  

 the physics is quite straight forward..  and Bluebee you are wrong... I assume you are just being provocative... in the vernacular of Northern England, this is a wind up.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 12, 2013, 07:37:44 pm
I decided to break out my electric heaters to boost the warmth (and early brooding) in a couple of my hives where the number of bees have dwindled to the point where the hives are acting like freezers.

Would you care to guess what happens in a 38mm thick foam hive when you add in 36 watts of electric heat?


I have used 10 years 6-15W heaters in spring in my hives. I have only good to say.
I have heated 30 hives.

I have 40 mm thick poly boxes.

With pollen patty and heating I have achieved 3 fold build up in big hives
Small hives are prisons of they size.

Like last spring I had in one hive 15 frames brood even if willow had not started to bloom yet.

.
If you look here, I have explained 6 years electrict heating on this forum.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8MnwifHNob3dfY29tcGxldGV8J3x8InxzdWJqZWN0X29ubHl8J3x8Inxzb3J0fCd8cmVsZXZhbmNlfCJ8c29ydF9kaXJ8J3xkZXNjfCJ8c2VhcmNofCd8ZWxlY3RyaWN0IGhlYXRpbmc=;start=30 (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php?action=search2;params=YWR2YW5jZWR8J3wwfCJ8YnJkfCd8MnwifHNob3dfY29tcGxldGV8J3x8InxzdWJqZWN0X29ubHl8J3x8Inxzb3J0fCd8cmVsZXZhbmNlfCJ8c29ydF9kaXJ8J3xkZXNjfCJ8c2VhcmNofCd8ZWxlY3RyaWN0IGhlYXRpbmc=;start=30)

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 12, 2013, 07:44:20 pm
Do you do this in the spring with all of your hives or just select hives?  If not all hives then how do you determine which hives to give heat?  Where do you put the heat source?  Also when do you applying relation to your first flow? 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 12, 2013, 07:54:36 pm
insulation is resistance to heat flow  it has no directional preference. its a scalar
radiative losses exceed radiative gains  in winter(see other posts)


Roughly speaking .. if you have a smaller heat source(less bees) to maintain the same temperature you need  
either/both smaller surface area, higher thermal resistance.

There are complications in that the air  temperatures are stratified i.e. hotter at the top,  and as heat flow is proportional to temperature difference, the surface area and insulation at or near the top have a greater  effect than lower down.

If you add:
it adds further complications but the above still holds true.

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 12, 2013, 07:56:03 pm
I decided to break out my electric heaters to boost the warmth (and early brooding) in a couple of my hives where the number of bees have dwindled to the point where the hives are acting like freezers.

Would you care to guess what happens in a 38mm thick foam hive when you add in 36 watts of electric heat?

the bees die- keep us posted   :) RDY-B
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Michael Bush on February 12, 2013, 08:09:09 pm
All of the stuff about "the bees don't heat the hive so it doesn't matter if it's big or small or if it's insulated", I think are perpetuated by people who have never lived outdoors.  I worked in construction in the panhandle of nebraska.  We worked until it get lower than -10 F.  that was our cutoff.  We worked outside, inside heated and unheated, insulated and uninsulated, partially finished, completly finished etc.  I've also camped in the winter all my life, lived in a tipi, build many shelters of everything from tarps, to branches and sod.  That will give you a much different view of what does and does not matter.  A human in those circumstances is not much different from a cluster of bees.  I am not "trying" to heat my tent or any other shelter I'm in.  I'm just "trying" to heat myself.  But almost everything affects that.  If it's sunny, I'm much better if I can get some of that sun. 
But if it's not, I'm much better off with ANY amount of insulation.  Thin cloth is colder than thick cloth.  Dark cloth is colder than white cloth.  Sealing up more drafts around the bottom, even with an open front, makes it MUCH warmer.  Discounting how much little things affect how warm you are is a mistake.  I'm not saying I have all the answers, but I assure you the answers are not simple, they are a complex thing.  Warmth isn't just about temperature.  It's about heat loss.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering (http://www.bushfarms.com/beesscientificstudies.htm#overwintering)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 12, 2013, 08:21:39 pm
 the answer is bigger cluster more heat-yes and heat loss- ;)
the answer is not heating a beehive so the bees are in a cosey environment
and break cluster-actually bees do better when temp is maintained at point of
cluster for extended periods of time -bees are keep in cold rooms not hot houses
 :) its what is going on in the cluster that makes the diferance --RDY-B
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: S.M.N.Bee on February 12, 2013, 09:22:02 pm
I run insulated hive covers as well. I will continue to run them because I believe they make a real difference here in Minnesota. The thing
I feel is most important has been posted here time after time." Large healthy clusters of bees going into winter with enough food equal live bees in spring"

John

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: edward on February 12, 2013, 09:34:25 pm
Has anybody used the rolls of fiberglass insulation around their hives?

We have wooden hives that have fiberglass insulation in Sweden, they cost 5X more than poly hives are heavy and hard to work.

I bought a bee yard last year with theses hives and I was going to burn them before I found out what they are worth, I am now going to fill them with bees and sell them to some one who romantically wants to keep bees in them at the end of there garden.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 12, 2013, 11:39:34 pm
Has anybody used the rolls of fiberglass insulation around their hives?

We have wooden hives that have fiberglass insulation in Sweden, they cost 5X more than poly hives are heavy and hard to work.

I bought a bee yard last year with theses hives and I was going to burn them before I found out what they are worth, I am now going to fill them with bees and sell them to some one who romantically wants to keep bees in them at the end of there garden.

mvh edward  :-P

I don't think I made it clear enough what I was talking about.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=672&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fiberglass+insulation+roll&oq=fiberglass+insulation+roll&gs_l=img.3..0i24l3.15098.16240.0.16991.5.4.0.0.0.0.518.686.0j1j5-1.2.0...0.0...1ac.1.2.img.TE_xm7XBWHE (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&biw=1024&bih=672&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=fiberglass+insulation+roll&oq=fiberglass+insulation+roll&gs_l=img.3..0i24l3.15098.16240.0.16991.5.4.0.0.0.0.518.686.0j1j5-1.2.0...0.0...1ac.1.2.img.TE_xm7XBWHE)

Bigger link than I thought, but I meant those rolls of fiberglass insulation. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 12:30:05 am
I haven’t because I don’t see any advantage of fiberglass over polystyrene.  It’s wet outside, hives get wet.  If fiberglass gets wet, its insulation value is completely worthless.  I don’t even like to use the stuff in my house, let alone a bee hive.  It’s also a poor insulating material if there is ANY chance of air movement because air will move right through the stuff. 

In a pinch, it might be interesting to wrap a hive in the stuff and cover it with a black garbage bag.  The garbage bag will absorb a lot of heat from the sun and the resulting temperature gradient might be sufficient to make such a configuration act like a weak thermal version of a diode.  Heat flows in during the day but is resisted by the insulation from flowing out as quickly at night. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 12:32:04 am
the physics is quite straight forward..  and Bluebee you are wrong... I assume you are just being provocative... in the vernacular of Northern England, this is a wind up.
If the volume of bees to the surface area of the foam is high, then foam works very well.  If the ratio is low, then the temp in the hive is going to track the average daily temp which is about 21F/-6C here right now.  That’s what I call a freezer.  What temperature is your freezer set to? 

The few watts from a weak cluster of bees just get sucked up and absorbed by all that cold honey as opposed to warming up the hive.  It’s a losing battle.  In such hives the bees just keep moving slower and slower until the finally stop for good. :(
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 12:37:27 am
With regards to electric heat.  My hives lived the last time I used electric heat while Michigan averaged 70% losses.  So I’m not sure what logic would suggest all the bees will die this time :?  I would prefer NOT to resort to electric, but if I have a weak colony in a foam hive in Michigan, it’s going to croak without some help.  Even if by some miracle it doesn’t freeze now, it will be robbed out and killed as soon as the big colonies are able to fly.  Adding more sugar or honeyballs isn’t going to solve the freezer problem or the future robbing problem. 

The only way a cold foam hive warms up is with more bees (nature’s heaters), or more solar gain, or electric heat.  It takes 21+ days to make more bees so that isn’t a quick fix.  Foam doesn’t conduct Solar gains into the bees so you can scratch that one off.  That leaves electric heat as about the only option.

I did not get a 3x spring buildup the last time I added electric heat, but Finski’s report is very encouraging.  Last time I didn’t feed.  This time I will be feeding;  protein and probably light syrup to get them going.   FInski do I need to put a bowl of water in there too? :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 12:54:17 am
   FInski do I need to put a bowl of water in there too? :-D


Stop drinking. That is all what I say.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 13, 2013, 05:36:39 am
the physics is quite straight forward..  and Bluebee you are wrong... I assume you are just being provocative... in the vernacular of Northern England, this is a wind up.
If the volume of bees to the surface area of the foam is high, then foam works very well.  If the ratio is low, then the temp in the hive is going to track the average daily temp which is about 21F/-6C here right now.  That’s what I call a freezer.  What temperature is your freezer set to? 

The few watts from a weak cluster of bees just get sucked up and absorbed by all that cold honey as opposed to warming up the hive.  It’s a losing battle.  In such hives the bees just keep moving slower and slower until the finally stop for good. :(


A freezer is an insulated cavity with a  heat pump. I dont recognise any heat pumps in a winter colony.

Conventional hive geometry is very poor for higher temperature heat retention.  It seems to assume that the air inside is a solid not a fluid.
Cold honey? where does this come from. The honey starts out warm, then heat flows hive resisted  by its themal conductivity and delayed by its  thermal mass.
If your surface area is too large for the heat source... Change it.
If you are getting mass transfer taking heat away  .... Seal it.

Bees in tree nests have all of this solved. Like the ball catcher they have a good solution to the differential equations of the problem.
(p.s. they have feral bees in Alberta!)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 06:19:27 am
.
This is good to read

    The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter - CAPA Bees

www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf (http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 13, 2013, 08:57:40 am
 quote author=BlueBee link=topic=40145.msg340656#msg340656 date=1360711084]
Of course their homes are like freezers!  You mean to tell me that in your 66 years you never made an igloo out of snow?  I have, and YES, they are like freezers.

Sometimes I wonder if Finski is actually posting from somewhere in the tropics?

[/quote]

Oh My! :lau: :lau: :lau:  Me too! X:X

P.S. one lit candle inside an igloo will have you near naked in no time  :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 09:31:54 am



Sometimes I wonder if Finski is actually posting from somewhere in the tropics?

where  candle is inside an igloo , If I could see him   naked

Oh My! :lau: :lau: :lau:  Me too! X:X

P.S.   :-D

Even if you are two pervos that was good. I told your case to Micah and look what he did

Baby Micah Laughing Hysterically at Laundry Basket (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X23J-si8wVg#ws)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Michael Bush on February 13, 2013, 09:48:10 am
>You mean to tell me that in your 66 years you never made an igloo out of snow?  I have, and YES, they are like freezers.

I have, and the igloo was quite warm.  So were the snow caves I've built.  Anything that is only 32 F when outside is -20 F is warm.  Anything that is out of the wind when outside it is howling is warm.  A reasonably sized igloo or snow cave with a candle, can get VERY warm...

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Beeboy01 on February 13, 2013, 10:08:31 am
I've had a little experence with warming weak hives during the winter when I was beekeeping in Pennsylvania. One of the main things that I found needed with wintering hives is air proper flow in a hive which prevents moisture from building up and causing condensation. Heating a hive not only allows the bees to spread the cluster out it also increases the air flow in a hive which helps remove the moisture generated by the metabolic activity of the bees. I heated my hives using a flat 25 watt bird bath heater slid in between the solid bottom board and the screened bottom board. This allowed the heat to rise past the cluster picking up moisture and then vent out past the inner cover. Since I've moved to Florida I haven't had the need to heat any hives. Just adding my thoughts about heating hives.
 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 01:48:36 pm
A bird bath heater slipped under the bottom?  Now that is ingenious. X:X  My heaters are a series of power resistors potted in cement that can be run on either AC or DC power.  I also put them under the hives and the heat rises through the bees.  My configuration also resulted in the removal of all condensation.  Each of my heaters can put out 12watts each.  I can PWM them when run off DC or triac them when running of AC to modulate the wattage from 0 to 12 watts.  I've got 3 in a full sized hive right now resulting in 36watts.

The amount of watts you need kind of depends on your goals.  My goal is to get some February brood cycles going in a couple of weak hives so I've added more watts that would be needed to simply keep the bees from freezing.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 01:51:45 pm
Of course and igloo is better than nothing in the winter because it protects you from the wind.  The wind is the real quick killer.  Snow and ice can also insulate you when the outside temp drops below freezing.  However it is still made of ICE and SNOW at 32F/0C.  It is still a freezer to a human body running at 98.6F. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothermia)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 01:54:10 pm
   FInski do I need to put a bowl of water in there too? :-D


Stop drinking. That is all what I say.

You mean to tell me you’ve never observed that bees need to DRINK water when they are raising brood :?  Maybe you need to spend some more time with your bees and less time in the Capital city?

I think I will put in a bowl of water in with the bees this time. ;)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 13, 2013, 04:57:43 pm
 the bees create more humidity when brood cycles are in play-i hope your heaters dont
 dry up the moister past what the bees need--  60% in brood chamber is ideal--RDY-B
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 05:19:36 pm
[
You mean to tell me you’ve never observed that bees need to DRINK water when they are raising brood :?  Maybe you need to spend some more time with your bees and less time in the Capital city?




I think first and I laugh tomorrow.

That pal in picture is Blue B. We use to laught together.

Laughing monkey (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OlNXKOChi8w#)
.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 13, 2013, 05:55:44 pm
.
This is good to read

    The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter - CAPA Bees

www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf (http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf)

this has a lot of misleading info... taking the wrong conclusions etc...

e.g. it ignores that bees at 30c have the same metabolic rate at 10C etc...
radiative losses 
convective losses
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 13, 2013, 06:45:50 pm
AGREED!  FINSKI is full of it.............misleading information....that is :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: edward on February 13, 2013, 07:03:12 pm
but I meant those rolls of fiberglass insulation.

Yes its the same insulation.

Popular bee fore polly hive were invented. Plywood or masonite wall inside the hive then fiberglass insulation then an outer shell of painted or stained wood.
Back breaking to work with  :(  http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/se/artikel.php?kid=8-72-106&mall=lista.php&id=22 (http://www.biredskapsfabriken.se/se/artikel.php?kid=8-72-106&mall=lista.php&id=22)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: gjd on February 13, 2013, 07:24:00 pm
I don't think I've ever posted pictures here, hopefully these will work; the preview makes them very small.  These are temperature plots of two hives and outside shade, Massachusetts late Jan-early Feb.    Insulation when present is 2" dense polystyrene sides, same or about 6-8" fiberglass top (roughly same R).  Side insulation is not done well, with leaks on sides, tops, bottom.  Insulated surfaces and about half the uninsulated surfaces painted dark green.   Bottom entrance reducer, top small vent through insulation leading directly into top of chamber, with a wind screen in front of the vent.  Inside temperature is with probe dangling 1-2" through covered inner cover hole.  The temp there depends a lot on position of cluster.   I do not have plots for live, uninsulated hives for comparison.

First compares outside temps (blue) with insulated post-deadout (green) with insulated live Italian cluster (red).

(http://s18.postimage.org/f75zdhpz9/insulated_empty_3_vs_insulated_live_1.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/f75zdhpz9/)

Second is after deadout insulation removed.  Outside blue, uninsulated deadout green, insulated live red.

(http://s7.postimage.org/nkbq19ntj/uninsulated_empty_vs_insulated_live.jpg) (http://postimage.org/image/nkbq19ntj/)

These are not carefully chosen or prepared plots, because I haven't worked through the data carefully.  There are lots of ways you could argue around the erratic daily variations with such a small sample, and such a localized temperature measurement in the hive. My impression is that basically the dead insulated hive warms up on sunny days slower and doesn't peak out as high before cooling starts, and cools off slower on very cold nights.  However, a live hive is so much warmer than mid- and late-winter temps that the effect of slower mid-day warming is mostly irrelevant.   I do not know how much colder an uninsulated hive would be, I can't bring myself to leave the insulation off for comparison.   But the argument is about insulation.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 13, 2013, 07:41:16 pm
 Interesting the red hive is almost always maintaining tempp of closes to
45 degress which is there range for clustering-and temps are obviously in to porportion of the cluster size
the chart shows us that without even knowing the size of cluster-this is textbook example of bees in cluster
dont you agree--- :lol:--RDY-B
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 07:50:34 pm
Good plots GJD.  My observation in my own insulated hives (about 30) is you can tell if a colony is alive or about to croak by how cold it is inside.  When your red line approaches your green line, it’s time to get real worried IMO.  When you see ice in a foam hive, it’s also time to get worried IMO. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 07:53:08 pm
the bees create more humidity when brood cycles are in play-i hope your heaters dont
 dry up the moister past what the bees need--  60% in brood chamber is ideal--RDY-B

That is a very good point RDY-B.  There is no doubt that the heaters DO dry up the moisture inside a hive.  That is why I was asking Mr Finski if I should put a bowl of water in with me bees.  Evidently he doesn’t know. :?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 13, 2013, 08:25:33 pm
OK, the laughing monkey was pretty funny, I have to admit. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:   

Finski you are skilled comedian and pretty good at geography too, but what about bee keeping in a cold climate? 

Bluebee winter
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Equipement/Gen%205%20nucs/Feb4mediumnuc_zpsb3c3d896.jpg)

Finski winter?
(http://www.travel-guider.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/fiji_islands-6.jpg)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: deknow on February 13, 2013, 08:32:13 pm
I think the question (or one of the questions) is:
"Does a cluster that is too small to keep an insulated cavity of a given size warm enough, or too small to warm up an insulated cavity of a given size have a better chance of winter survival with less insulation where it  will experience both solar gain and winter cold?"

Part of the answer depends on how much solar gain?  When?  How cold is the winter?  Are the hives covered in snow?

I think a cluster of reasonable size/volume is always heating (at least the cluster)...while solar gain is, at best, at play a few hours in the day.

There may well be some ideal insulation values for very specific criteria (cavity size, cluster size, winter temps, winter length, etc), but I'm not sure this is easily quantifiable.

deknow
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: edward on February 13, 2013, 09:14:54 pm
When beekeeping in harsh climates you don't want to go into the winter with hives with a small amount of bees, it better to combine to weak hives and have one strong hive in the spring rather than 2 dead hive that need to bee cleaned up.

The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

That being said some people take a gamble and try it any way.

To succeed at this it is advisable to use smaller hives or fill half the poly hive with poly boards thereby reducing the hives inner volume.
The hives should be sheltered from wind and large fluctuations between temperatures (makes the bees job easier to maintain a constant in hive climate) barns, cellars, garages or any other quiet location.

Pack the bees in snugly to succeed in keeping hives in cold climates in poly hives.

mvh edward  :-P

 :pop:  Let the mud fly  :pop:
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: edward on February 13, 2013, 09:22:16 pm
Solar gain is not wanted because the bees should be in a tight ball and not have any brood.

Temperature fluctuations dissolve the ball and the bees consume more food and fill there bowels and are at risk for pooping the hive.

When spring and warmer weather arrives reduce the ventilation so they can keep the hive and brood warm until the hive and weather grows bigger and warmer.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 10:30:01 pm
OK, the laughing monkey was pretty funny, I have to admit. :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:  

Finski you are skilled comedian and pretty good at geography too, but what about bee keeping in a cold climate?  

Bluebee winter
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Equipement/Gen%205%20nucs/Feb4mediumnuc_zpsb3c3d896.jpg)


That is an example what a beekeeper can do.

And the box material! WOW!

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 13, 2013, 10:35:46 pm
My impression is that basically the dead insulated hive warms up on sunny days slower and doesn't peak out as high before cooling starts, and cools off slower on very cold nights.  However, a live hive is so much warmer than mid- and late-winter temps that the effect of slower mid-day warming is mostly irrelevant.   I do not know how much colder an uninsulated hive would be, I can't bring myself to leave the insulation off for comparison

But the argument is about insulation.


Sure-

I have had insuted hives 50 years. Now I have them 40 hives.

It was said yesterday in TV news that during past 2,5 months City of Jyväskylä has had 18 hours sun.


It means nothing but I live however at latitude 60.  It is sama as Anchorage in Alaska.
You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?

3000 km to Spain from here........

-

.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 14, 2013, 01:12:08 am
The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  He uses thin wood hives.  You would have to search BeeSource for the details.  I believe he’s in Northern Vermont, near the Canadian border.  He’s probably considerably colder than Finski; there aren’t any warm ocean currents to keep northern Vermont warm.  Some pretty good skiing up there too!

Palmer can make the arguments for wintering nucs better than I can.  It’s part of his idea for a sustainable apiary.  As Finski likes to point out, we have high losses of bees in the USA.  Be it mites, cold, wood hives, CCD, stubbornness, honeyballs ;), or whatever, we manage to kill a lot of bees every year.  Without a means to replace those losses, bee keeping can become very expensive and un-sustainable for many beeks here.

If you maintain some nucs of your own, it is a way to boost weak hives in the spring, start new hives, or sell surplus nucs to other local beeks.

Edward, I agree with your guidelines for wintering said nucs:  Insulate them well and make sure they're packed with bees.  When I achieve that, the nucs usually all survive. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 14, 2013, 03:33:14 am

There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  

Very few use foam hive in America. Europe has used them over  25 years.

I know a guy round here and he has 3000 hives. He produces foamhives and sell to half Europe.
Another guy has 1000 hives too and produces too foam hives and export them


Sure Palmer does , like all others in Canada.
Yes, I have looked Alaska hives. The same thin boxes and 50 kg winter food.

Canada uses to wrap their hives this way

(http://www.honeybeeworld.com/images/dixonbush600.jpg)





Foam hives and foam solid bottom. Owner has over 1000 hives this way
Out temp -25C in video

bees wintering in finland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltFEi07DTqM#ws)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 14, 2013, 06:17:39 am
...
Bluebee winter
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Equipement/Gen%205%20nucs/Feb4mediumnuc_zpsb3c3d896.jpg)

Thats as a very depressing picture.

when i compare that cold thin nuc to how warm small colony  would be a in tree hollow with 6" or more of wood on the sides,  feet of wood above and the entrance 3ft of more below it.

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Michael Bush on February 14, 2013, 09:06:58 am
>Solar gain is not wanted because the bees should be in a tight ball and not have any brood.

But if they stay in a tight cluster, they can't rearrange stores, find stores, if they have eaten everything close, nor can they take a cleansing flight.  A warm day that allows them to break cluster can save a hive.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 14, 2013, 09:44:44 am
The norm is not to try to winter nucs, they are to small and don't usually make it.

There is a bee keeper in Vermont with some notoriety who would probably disagree with that.  I believe Michael Palmer winters 300+ nucs every winter and he doesn’t even use foam hives!  He uses thin wood hives.  You would have to search BeeSource for the details.  I believe he’s in Northern Vermont, near the Canadian border.  He’s probably considerably colder than Finski; there aren’t any warm ocean currents to keep northern Vermont warm.  Some pretty good skiing up there too!

Palmer can make the arguments for wintering nucs better than I can.  It’s part of his idea for a sustainable apiary.  As Finski likes to point out, we have high losses of bees in the USA.  Be it mites, cold, wood hives, CCD, stubbornness, honeyballs ;), or whatever, we manage to kill a lot of bees every year.  Without a means to replace those losses, bee keeping can become very expensive and un-sustainable for many beeks here.

If you maintain some nucs of your own, it is a way to boost weak hives in the spring, start new hives, or sell surplus nucs to other local beeks.

Edward, I agree with your guidelines for wintering said nucs:  Insulate them well and make sure they're packed with bees.  When I achieve that, the nucs usually all survive. 


Michael Palmer 's NUC's in Vermont are amazing.  I have a sister that lives near his operation and have read and watched much of him over the years in different mediums.

And you're right, "BeeSource" is where you can find his methods of Wintering NUC's.  With Tower, NH close by (known as the the place w/ the "worlds worse" weather) you're also likely right about their severity of extreme weather, even compared with Finland.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 14, 2013, 09:59:36 am
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 14, 2013, 11:42:22 am
..............even compared with Finland.

Our winter is not hard but it is long.
Insulation ensures it that hives do not need feeding during winter. Witout insulation hive consumes 50% more food.


Insulated foam hives are cheap and very light to handle.
 
I have not a slightes idea why we should use somethind else. If you look German, Dánish or many other beehives, they use polyhives.

I wrapped once my hives into black tarpaper and that was about 45 years ago.
.



Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 14, 2013, 12:58:46 pm
Finski, what is the wall thickness of those paradise honey poly hives? 

My hives have 38mm thick walls.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 14, 2013, 12:59:53 pm
In honor of Valentine’s Day, I’ve made something special for my bees. 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Management/DSC_0984_zpsbebf6c7a.jpg)

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: rdy-b on February 14, 2013, 01:25:55 pm
 Is that refined sugar????
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Michael Bush on February 14, 2013, 02:23:00 pm
>In honor of Valentine’s Day, I’ve made something special for my bees. 

Sheep poop?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Vance G on February 14, 2013, 05:01:17 pm
You must raise very large sheep in Nebraska~!
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 14, 2013, 05:23:08 pm
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 14, 2013, 07:16:41 pm
Now Michael, would I give sheep poop for a Valentine ’s Day treat. :shock:  OK, that was a pretty funny observation. :-D

Truth be told, I wanted to experiment with Whey as a protein substitute for spring build up so I mixed some chocolate protein shake (whey) in with some honey and formed it into balls.  I then put those balls into the 2 hives I’m nursing with electric heat.  The bees seemed interested in them at first, but now they seem to be ignoring them.  They really went after the light syrup and the WATER I put in the hives though.  

With 36 watts of heat in those 2 hives, it’s like summer in there.  The bees are actively removing the dead (to the front porch) and sucking up the syrup, but they are NOT flying which is a very good thing because it’s freezing cold outside.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: gjd on February 14, 2013, 08:09:30 pm

You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?
Sorry, you've lost me.  You're dismissing my post, which was mostly a description of actual temperature recordings, because you think the climate of north-central Massachusetts is like Spain or Italy?



Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Farm 779 on February 14, 2013, 09:31:12 pm
I can see where a hive would freeze with ice on the inside. Condensation. I live where we have sustained winds over +35 mph with temperatures of -15 F for days on end. Even a proper vented hive can experience unusual drafts within the hive, swirling snow or high hive humidity.

My approach is more extreme perhaps. I have 10 frame Langstroth, that I wrap in 6 mm mylar backed bubble wrap, 2-deeps (+90 lbs stores), 1-small super filled with honey (+30 lbs), the pollen patty layer, and the sawdust quilt layer are placed inside a 2 inch rigid insulation box, with 2 inch annular space between the hive, and wrapped in black tar paper. The annular space between the hive and pink box is to shed condensation, or collect and freeze condensation in the proper environmental conditions. I have three vent points in the pink box, two  bottom, one top. My hives are positioned that in the winter solstice, they can obtain 3.5 hours of direct daylight, with the entrance oriented true south.

I understand Finski's approach. My next test will be to put my bees in a man made cave without insulation for the winter. I have a river bank I can make into a cave (by bury a CONEX).

Cheers,

Farm 779
Lazy Mountain, AK

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 02:57:51 am

You live in Massachusetts 41 degree. It is like Spain or Italy in Europe. ................To get wintering and insulating advices from Spain?
Sorry, you've lost me.  You're dismissing my post, which was mostly a description of actual temperature recordings, because you think the climate of north-central Massachusetts is like Spain or Italy?



This is good discussion, where everybody lives.

Sun angle in Massachusetts is now the same as we have in first week of April. (35 degree) Then our snow cover starts to melt.

http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php (http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/AltAz.php)


.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 03:05:00 am
I
I understand Finski's approach. My next test will be to put my bees in a man made cave without insulation for the winter. I have a river bank I can make into a cave (by bury a CONEX).




If it is merely a cave, bees get there bad nosema. All cellar or room wintering need good electrict ventilation.
.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 15, 2013, 05:45:48 am
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D

Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: piarelal on February 15, 2013, 06:25:54 am
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States
by T.D. Seeley..Must read! :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: piarelal on February 15, 2013, 06:41:44 am
..and google : "unmanaged_honeybees_usa_delaney_2012". You will be directed to the warrebeekeeping forum where you can access this BBKA News article.-British Beekeeper Association-
Really thanks for all your brainstorming!! Building an energy efficient hive can really trasform beekeeping, and save the bees.

 Professor Jurgen Tautz in the amazing The Buzz About Bees pag.217 states that a strong colony of Apis Mellifera, presumably Ligustica and hived in a conventional Langstroth or Dadant, can produce 300kg of honey during a summer, although only  a small proportion of it is present at any time in the hive. The 4/5 of it, 240kg, are literally "burned" to regulate the temperature of the brood both in winter and summer and to warm the winter cluster (2 million K joules for brood rearing and another 2million Kj for the winter cluster; the combustion of 1kg of honey produces 12000kj). This means that building a hive that is only 3 to 6% more energy efficient could save the 7.5kg of wax that according to the same author the bees employ to build the 1200gr of combs of a typical nest..making a hive 10% more efficient would not also increase the honey yield for the beekeeper, and if we are a bit intelligent, the bees could build their combs, the exoskeleton of the superoganism -fondamental organ of its immune system- and be fed only honey.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 07:18:47 am
Honey bees of the Arnot Forest: a population of feral colonies persisting with Varroa destructor in the northeastern United States
by T.D. Seeley..Must read! :-D

Almost 10 years old case. Miracle is over? - "research preserve in New York State, were studied over a three-year period, 2002 to 2005."

There are that kind of cases in many places in the world, much in Europe too. Survivors of those bees have breeded and crossed and many kind of strains have been developed.



.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 07:27:32 am


 Professor Jurgen Tautz in the amazing The Buzz About Bees pag.217 states that a strong colony of Apis Mellifera, presumably Ligustica and hived in a conventional Langstroth or Dadant, can produce 300kg of honey during a summer,

A good yield comes from pastures. That kind of yield demands long summer and migrating hives to different pastures.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 15, 2013, 09:33:13 am
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D

Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests

Not at all, that is your assumption.  We've all got them  ;). 

What I am saying (and you keep missing) is that 'without beekeepers' honeybees would not proliferate as far or as much as you want to believe. 

That's all, and there's no way to prove either of our positions until humans stop keeping bees, so the debate can go on forever, if you want it to.  Although 65 million years of archaeological evidence lean heavily toward the points I've expressed, especially those eons before people arrived on the scene.

Its OK to believe something else you know.  I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything but thus far your arguments have not detoured my own belief  :-D  But you can keep trying if you want, I don't mind.

"TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU'RE STANDING" 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 09:53:36 am

65 MILLION YEARS!

It seems that truth is escaping us with light speed?




.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 15, 2013, 10:12:25 am
If your climate can sustain decidous forest it can sustain bees. Apis Mellifera Mellifera natural range limit  coincides with the range limit of deciduous forest. if a beek cant overwinter his bees where oaks and birches can grow, he needs to rethink what he does. If a beek cant better the wild bee they are doing things wrong.

Vermont has great decidous forests if my googling is correct, therefore bees in vermont should be a stroll.
South michigan has decidous forests so bees should be at home there...

As long as new and old beeks keep replenishing the stock each year  :-D

Your opinions seem to  indicate that failure in beekeeping is the accepted  norm in northern America. Failure compared to Apis Mellifera Mellifera left to its own devices in unmanaged decidous forests

Not at all, that is your assumption.  We've all got them  ;).  

What I am saying (and you keep missing) is that 'without beekeepers' honeybees would not proliferate as far or as much as you want to believe.  

That's all, and there's no way to prove either of our positions until humans stop keeping bees, so the debate can go on forever, if you want it to.  Although 65 million years of archaeological evidence lean heavily toward the points I've expressed, especially those eons before people arrived on the scene.

Its OK to believe something else you know.  I'm not trying to convince you or anyone of anything but thus far your arguments have not detoured my own belief  :-D  But you can keep trying if you want, I don't mind.

"TRUTH DEPENDS ON WHERE YOU'RE STANDING"  

read "The Dark European Honey Bee" pages 10 to 18
 By Friedrich Ruttner, Eric Milner, John Ellis Dews, John E Dews.

in that the authors relate: that early in 17th century, in north america, after importation to east coast, a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)

try this link
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=j0PRwmw5scwC&q=northern+limit#v=snippet&q=northern%20limit&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=j0PRwmw5scwC&q=northern+limit#v=snippet&q=northern%20limit&f=false)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Farm 779 on February 15, 2013, 10:52:05 am
Finski,

You do not need an electrical ventilation system. All I require are two 10 cm plastic pipes located at either end of the cave and protruding through the ground. One pipe out of the ground is higher than the other. This simple difference in elevation provides an air current when the slightest of breeze blows over the pipes. I will use this theory on my bee hive lids to help promote condensation venting.

In arid places, this method is used to capture water (humidity) stored in the air.

Cheers,
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 15, 2013, 11:21:22 am
derekm; Thanks for proving my point (s).
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 11:37:55 am

I will use this theory on my bee hive lids to help promote condensation venting.


You use theory, I know the practice. Remember me when you bottom is full of dead bees.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 11:40:35 am

 a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)


We talked a while ago abojut about thaat spreading, and that 16  4th paragraph is not correct.
January 18, 2013, 05:40:43 AM


Bee expanding history of USA

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html (http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html)

The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.).
 Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.

"Although some claim that Tabitha ‘Grandma’ Brown, who owned and ran a school and orphanage in Forest Grove, Oregon, had a honey bee tree at the school in 1849 (Williams 1975:34) the first evidence I could find of honey bees in Oregon was the August 1, 1854 Oregon Statesman, which included a story about John Davenport of Marion county who brought home a hive of honey bees from back east. These were considered the first in the area. Unfortunately, it was later reported that this first hive of honey bees did not do well (Williams 1975:34).

 

Honey bees came to California almost simultaneously with the Oregon honey bees. There is just no support for the story that the honey bees brought to Sitka, Alaska in 1809 by Russian missionaries and traders were carried down to Fort Ross, California in 1812 (Essig 1931:265-266; Free 1982:117). Much more likely is the story told in an 1860 letter from F. G. Appleton, a San Jose apiarist, that says the first honey bees in California arrived in March 1853. There were 12 swarms purchased in Panama, which were carried across the “Isthmus and thence by water to San Francisco” (Essig 1931:268). Only one hive survived the trip and that hive was taken to San José where it produced three successful swarms that first year.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 15, 2013, 11:57:27 am
I’m probably going to have to side with T Beek about the survival of bees in the Great Lakes region.  We have a tough climate, and Wisconsin is even tougher.  Without bee keepers and their escaped swarms, I doubt there would be any bees here.  When I get swarm calls in the spring, the folks are absolutely amazed to see such a thing.  They typically go on and on about how they’ve lived in Michigan for 50 years and have never seen such a thing!  They’re amazed like little children to see a swarm of bees.  
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: piarelal on February 15, 2013, 12:11:51 pm
hello Finsky! I owe you a couple! :-D. So far, the figures for the total harvest of honey per colony per year (i.e. the totality of the honey that is produced by the bees before the beek take his part) that I came across varied between 187kg and 300kg and there are some accounts of beekeepers in America that at the beginning of 1900, before pesticides and today's agriculture, were reporting harvests of 100kg! Even for just 187kg is profitable to smartly insulate the hive and save around 20kg of honey for the bees(!) so that they can eat honey and build their combs. What is really profitable for the beekeeper,..and his sons or daughters! and so on..,and human society! is to work with bees that don't get ill and are attuned to their environment; I am afraid that with the shameful economics used to justify the world order today these benefits cannot be quantified and society will not be able, any time soon, to remunerate any beekeeper whose hives contribute to impollinate, free of charge, 80% of the horticultural products of the world, in the U.S alone estimated in 2003 to be worth between 18 and 27 billion $.-from The Xerces Society- And don't expect any time soon, that "AgroPharma" pays the beekeepers for their losses or society for the extermination of the wild pollinators, without which there is not horticulture. These costs are not paid at the tiller,or even better by taxing the manufacturer, but by all of us, our bees and our children. In this jungle society the profit of one are the losses of someone else or nature, now or after that. If we used this forums to organise mass plantings of melliferous flora, involve schools, jails, elderly houses... if we used facebook or else to promote it for roadway hedges,city and natural parks, ditches, ravines ..and to campain for a tax on pesticides, maybe the difference in honey harvested by a stationary hive and a nomadic one, like back in the 1900, would not be so different, or nomadism would not be worth that much: especially if a beek was paid for the already mentioned ecosystem services that his bees provide and he had to pay to move his stock, since in so doing he has been accused, in numerous occasion, of dehabilitating the bees,i.e to deplete the natural capital, the bees, on which the welfare of all present and future beekeepers, as well as our beloved insects, depend... Even then efficient insulation of the hive would matter a lot, especially for the health of the bees.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 15, 2013, 12:20:26 pm
My hives are insulated, but do not have added heat.  I am really thinking of adding some spring heat as finski does.  I am considering using heat tape.  I read in another topic that he would not use heat under the hive, but rather on the top or on the side.  How do you accomplish this?  Maybe imbed the heat source into the insulation to the side of the hive?  Most of the heat tape I have seen online turns on when the temp falls below 35 f.  Is this ideal or do I want a constant source?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 12:29:13 pm
hello Finsky! I owe you a couple! :-D. So far, the figures for the total harvest of honey per colony per year

I do not understand what you are explaineg, but is is sure that beekeeping nowadays have nothing to do 1900 beekeeping.

To speak about record years is not honest- It is dreaming.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 15, 2013, 12:44:29 pm
derekm; Thanks for proving my point (s).

what points ?
The book I refer to shows AMM spread into  the rest of northern  america themselves  not via bee keepers, they only needed the beeks to get across the atlantic.
It shows bees spread into northern Europe by themselves not by bee keepers
The bees dont need you if they have unmanaged decidous forest.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 15, 2013, 12:48:58 pm
I’m probably going to have to side with T Beek about the survival of bees in the Great Lakes region.  We have a tough climate, and Wisconsin is even tougher.  Without bee keepers and their escaped swarms, I doubt there would be any bees here.  When I get swarm calls in the spring, the folks are absolutely amazed to see such a thing.  They typically go on and on about how they’ve lived in Michigan for 50 years and have never seen such a thing!  They’re amazed like little children to see a swarm of bees.  
if  decidous trees thrive and can grow to full size where  were you live, bees should be able to live wild... 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 15, 2013, 12:54:09 pm

 a big feral population rapidly established itself and spread west faster than the  human colonists.
(a precise of page 16  4th paragraph)


We talked a while ago abojut about thaat spreading, and that 16  4th paragraph is not correct.
January 18, 2013, 05:40:43 AM


Bee expanding history of USA

http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html (http://www.orsba.org/htdocs/download/Honey%20Bees%20Across%20America.html)

The creation of the United States can be found in the footsteps of the honey bee (Apis mellifera L.).
 Brought to the east coast of North America in 1622 it would be 231 years before the honey bee reached the west coast. Disease, hostile competitors, harsh climates, and geographical barriers blocked the advance of honey bee and human alike.

"Although some claim that Tabitha ‘Grandma’ Brown, who owned and ran a school and orphanage in Forest Grove, Oregon, had a honey bee tree at the school in 1849 (Williams 1975:34) the first evidence I could find of honey bees in Oregon was the August 1, 1854 Oregon Statesman, which included a story about John Davenport of Marion county who brought home a hive of honey bees from back east. These were considered the first in the area. Unfortunately, it was later reported that this first hive of honey bees did not do well (Williams 1975:34).

 

Honey bees came to California almost simultaneously with the Oregon honey bees. There is just no support for the story that the honey bees brought to Sitka, Alaska in 1809 by Russian missionaries and traders were carried down to Fort Ross, California in 1812 (Essig 1931:265-266; Free 1982:117). Much more likely is the story told in an 1860 letter from F. G. Appleton, a San Jose apiarist, that says the first honey bees in California arrived in March 1853. There were 12 swarms purchased in Panama, which were carried across the “Isthmus and thence by water to San Francisco” (Essig 1931:268). Only one hive survived the trip and that hive was taken to San José where it produced three successful swarms that first year.

.

its AMM not AML ...  and I'm talking about bees moving west from the East coast, not over the Rockies i.e. Oregon or CA. Note  in Europe AMM was limited by the Urals and the Alps.,,
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 15, 2013, 01:16:29 pm
My hives are insulated, but do not have added heat.  I am really thinking of adding some spring heat as finski does.  I am considering using heat tape.  I read in another topic that he would not use heat under the hive, but rather on the top or on the side.  How do you accomplish this?  Maybe imbed the heat source into the insulation to the side of the hive?  Most of the heat tape I have seen online turns on when the temp falls below 35 f.  Is this ideal or do I want a constant source?

Making sure this doesn't get lost amongst the other stuff.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 15, 2013, 01:25:23 pm

its AMM not AML ...  and I'm talking about bees moving west from the East coast, not over the Rockies i.e. Oregon or CA. Note  in Europe AMM was limited by the Urals and the Alps.,,

Apis mellifera L means that Linnaeus has given the scientic name.

The Italian bee USA '
Italian honey bees, of the subspecies Apis mellifera ligustica, were brought to the U.S. in 1859. They quickly became the favored bee stock in  this country and remain so to this day. Known for their extended periods of brood rearing, Italian bees can build colony populations in the spring and maintain them for the entire summer. They are less defensive and less prone to disease than their German counterparts, and they are excellent honey producers. They also are very lightly colored, ranging from a light leather hue to an almost lemon yellow, a trait that is highly coveted by many beekeepers for its aesthetic appeal.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 15, 2013, 01:37:47 pm
derekm; your operative word I believe is 'should' as in the bees 'should' survive without assistance from beeks.  I'm still at a 2-5 year survival "IF" we stopped keeping bees.

piarelal;  You have eloquently described why the World needs a "SINGLE TAX" or Land Value Tax.  

What if we could eliminate 'all' other forms of taxation except taxes on the use AND the abuse of LAND?  

Some top economists have theorized an end result that would provide enough revenue for our roads, schools, hospitals, parks, fire and police protection and provide the less fortunate with an income that would/could end poverty.  

Is it time for Henry George's Economic plan to finally take hold?  Could be.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 15, 2013, 01:48:22 pm
Bush_84 I can tell you what I have done. 

First off, heat tape is supposed to be taped to pipe (copper) to dissipate the heat it builds up.  How much creative license there is to improvise, I don’t know.  As with most things electronic, if something can’t shed enough heat, it can burn up and die, or catch fire.   I have used heat tape for heating pipes and other non bee keeping stuff and I kind of doubt it would catch on fire without a heat sink, but the directions for using the stuff clearly state it is supposed to be secured to a heat sink. 

If heat tape does start to overheat in (under) a bee hive, you could probably cover it with sand to help dissipate heat.  Gardeners use this same concept to start seeds or propagate cuttings.  They bury heater cables into the soil.  The soil dissipates the heat so the coil doesn’t burn up.  The garden heater cables typically do not have a thermostat on them like the pipe heating tape.  I have also used the greenhouse heating cables, but not for bees.

I use power resistors potted in cement to dissipate the heat the resistors generate and can vary that from 0 to 36 watts with a controller.  In a well insulated hive, 36 watts really heats the bugger up.  At last check it was about 80F in my hives.  It’s below freezing outside.

The last time I heated bees, I used a little controller on which I could set the thermostat.  I set the thermostat to 88F.  My thinking at the time was to bias the hive temp up near the ideal brood rearing temperature so the bees didn’t have to do much extra work to get the hive up to brood temps (95F).  I figured if I did most of the work electrically, then the bees could cover more brood and create a bigger buildup than natural.  However I didn’t feed or stimulate brooding which was a mistake. 

Personally it makes more sense to me to use bottom heat if you can. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 16, 2013, 05:50:33 pm
Just came back from the hives.  I fed the hives I’m nursing some 1:1 syrup and a bowl of water.   Did somebody say you can’t feed syrup when it’s 20F and snowing outside?  We’re headed down to 7F / -14C tonight.  I think it’s an encouraging sign that the bees are lapping up the water.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 17, 2013, 03:25:16 am
Just came back from the hives.  I fed the hives I’m nursing some 1:1 syrup and a bowl of water.   Did somebody say you can’t feed syrup when it’s 20F and snowing outside?  We’re headed down to 7F / -14C tonight.  I think it’s an encouraging sign that the bees are lapping up the water.

You do not mind what you do.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 25, 2013, 02:10:44 pm
Ok a little bit of a bump, but I have a heat related question.  Going to be adding a 15 w bulb to my hives.  I have an eke above the cluster with each hive.  The bulbs are a smidge big to just slide in the entrance from below.  So should I place the heat source (bulb wrapped in aluminum foil) in the eke next to the cluster (above the top box) or in an eke on the bottom next to the entrance.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Michael Bush on February 25, 2013, 05:14:59 pm
The problem with light bulbs is they make light and light attracts bees.  I'd put it UNDER the bottom board...
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 25, 2013, 06:03:05 pm
 :idunno:
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 25, 2013, 06:06:25 pm
A light bulb wrapped with AL foil?  That is pretty creative, I’ll have to admit.  I agree with the other Bush; Light can make the winter bees hyperactive, so your AL foil wrap sounds like a good idea.  Just make sure you don’t break the bulb and get electrocuted with the tin foil; that would be bad.

I would try to stick the heat source under the bees.  That’s where my 36watts of heat is located and the bees are LOVIN' EVERY MINUTE OF IT.  They were flying like crazy today, it got up to about 40F with Sunshine for a change.  Even the humans were going crazy here with the Sunshine.  I saw a gal out walking in the snow with short shorts and a tank top :)  Spring must not be too far off.  Yipee!    
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 25, 2013, 06:23:40 pm
Then again, I think we are supposed to get another 8” of snow tomorrow...... 

What’s your plan for the heated bees Bush 84?  Are you going to feed them pollen patties?  Syrup?  Water?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 25, 2013, 06:38:53 pm
extra heat + ventilation=dehydration...
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Bush_84 on February 25, 2013, 07:03:23 pm
Then again, I think we are supposed to get another 8” of snow tomorrow...... 

What’s your plan for the heated bees Bush 84?  Are you going to feed them pollen patties?  Syrup?  Water?


Spring heating.  Pollen patties and sugar syrup if needed when the weather becomes nicer in march.  I want flying weather to become more consistent before I do any syrup or pollen patty.  I know natures nectar is in Minnesota and their blog indicates that they give pollen patty typically mid march.  So that's my current plan.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 25, 2013, 11:40:21 pm
extra heat + ventilation=dehydration...

Tell it to Mr Finski, he’s the one adding electric heat without adding water!  I know better  ;)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 26, 2013, 12:27:38 am
extra heat + ventilation=dehydration...

After 10 years heating  my formula is :  polyboxes + heating + patty = 3 fold build up.

I know dehydration. If soil is covered with snow, bees do not get drinking water. Larvae became sick.
So I must start patty feeding when soil can be seen partly.

With heating bees start to ventilate when day temp is +17C.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 26, 2013, 09:33:53 am
No 'artificial' heat in my hives, just foam shells for the first time this season. 

6 of 8 colonies had bees meandering at entrances yesterday, one had an 'explosion' of mostly yellow bee poo.  Had a high of 32F yesterday w/ 40 and some sun predicted for today.  I'll be watching for more yellow polka dots in the snow. 

Seems I'm having good results w/out artificial heat.  Keeping my fingers crossed.

Noticed a pair of chickadees munching on the scattered dead yesterday too, first time seeing that. 
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 26, 2013, 11:39:25 am
T Beek, I agree with you, it is preferable not to resort to electric heat for a number of reasons; including safety of the bee keeper.  If you still have lots of bees in a well insulated or poly hive by this time of year, then they do work great and I would do nothing.  Such hives should be booming by mid April without any help from the bee keeper.

IMO, a problem arises if you’ve lost a lot of bees in a hive by this time of year.  Those lost bees are lost heat inside the hive.  If you have a well insulated box with a lot of cold stuff inside (say ice or frozen honey) and a very small heat source (too few bees), that’s what I call a freezer.

(http://www.after5catalog.com/images/products/316-07001p1.jpg)

 At least with a wood hive, the warmth of the spring sun will really start to warm up the frozen honey.  In a well insulated poly hive, the only way that honey gets warmed up is by sucking the energy out of the bees.

I’m only using electric heat in a couple of weak hives.   I’m not messing with the rest.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 26, 2013, 12:24:54 pm
-
You boath never learn. Beehive is a freezer!!! Oh dear.

A while ago I printed some results what our beekeeper put into Finnish forum.

He measured

out temp, free air temp in hive and cluster temp

out .... inside air....cluster

-12C....+11C...+26C
-16C....+13C... 17C
-11C.....+8C......20C

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 26, 2013, 01:36:39 pm
I also agree with you BlueBee, its why I'm considering removing the south/entrance facing part of my foam shells. 
4 screws and done. 

Today's warm temps and sunshine may be the day.

Finski; the major concern as you know, is the amount of bees along w/ the size of the cavity and ability to collect stores 'wherever' they may be w/in the hive "this" difficult time of year. 

If there is a way to help or save a colony with 'minimal intrusion' when they are their most vulnerable...I say why not?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 26, 2013, 01:51:35 pm


Finski; the major concern as you know, is the amount of bees along w/ the size of the cavity and ability to collect stores 'wherever' they may be w/in the hive "this" difficult time of year. 



My hives have  3 feet snow around. Size of hive cavity is what it is and clusters are much smaller than in 5 months ago.
It takes 1,5 months that snow starts to melt on my property.

My hives are 150 km away, and I do not know what thaey are doing.


It is vain to talk about sunshine here. It does not heat much.

Bees generate heat inside the hive. That is their system the whole year. They have allready brood there and they have rised the hive temperature.

.
.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: T Beek on February 26, 2013, 02:09:37 pm
Finland is not N/W Wisconsin  ;). 

Happy to say I can look out my Northwest window and see my beeyard at roughly 50 yards away 12 months a year 8-)
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 26, 2013, 02:16:26 pm
Finland is not N/W Wisconsin  ;).  

Happy to say I can look out my Northwest window and see my beeyard at roughly 50 yards away 12 months a year 8-)

I like to live in Capital City. There is no worse life than stir hives all the year around and wonder do they have condensation or not, or  do they allready make poo on snow

This is good place to live. I have lived on this isle 40 years.

(http://www.histdoc.net/lauttasaari/pic/Lauttasaari2007-07-05.jpg)

Typical scenery on my summer cottage

(http://www.viestimuuntaja.fi/assets/maisema.jpg)
.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: derekm on February 27, 2013, 02:34:54 pm


 At least with a wood hive, the warmth of the spring sun will really start to warm up the frozen honey.  In a well insulated poly hive, the only way that honey gets warmed up is by sucking the energy out of the bees.


rowlocks - you know more than this about heat flow... are you delibrately trying to be provocative to stimulate controversy?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: edward on February 27, 2013, 09:37:28 pm
Insulation , no insulation , poly hives are warm , poly hives are cold fridges , blaa blaa blaa

There is already a practical solution to the problem  :devilbanana: just plug it in and turn the knob to the temperature that is desirable http://www.holtermann-shop.de/popup_image.php/pID/3230/XTCsid/0c18032ddd1c60242c2b30199855b0a5&imgID=1 (http://www.holtermann-shop.de/popup_image.php/pID/3230/XTCsid/0c18032ddd1c60242c2b30199855b0a5&imgID=1)


mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 28, 2013, 01:57:12 am
Finski’s freezers + 8 watts of electric heat = Warm box.
Warm box + bees + pollen + water = 3x buildup.

If Finski’s boxes are so well insulated in the first place, then why does he need to add electric heat to warm them up?
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 28, 2013, 02:04:41 am
Finski’s freezers + 8 watts of electric heat = Warm box.
Warm box + bees + pollen + water = 3x buildup.

If Finski’s boxes are so well insulated in the first place, then why does he need to add electric heat to warm them up?


No need but I do.
There are only few guys who has heated hives with electrict. And as few are who feed pollen patty.

Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: BlueBee on February 28, 2013, 02:12:49 am
I’ve been heating a couple of weak hives now for 13 days.  They’re snowed in, but I’ve been feeding them 1:1 syrup and tap water.  So far they’re looking good, but I won’t really know how it’s going for at least 21+ days.  We had record heat last March, but so far we’re running about normal this year.

My heaters are 36watts.  I'll turn down the wattage when our day temperatures exceed the freezing point.

With Edwards 100watt heater I could probably bake cookies in my hive   :-D
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 28, 2013, 03:04:17 am
.
You said that you heat small colonies and with 36W


I have over 30 heaters and they are 6-15W.
15W cable is cheapest.  They are waterproof terrarium heaters and are on bottom.

heating+syrup helps nothing.

Yes, I have seen what heating do to spring build up. Some of my hives are in woods without heating and some are in my cottage yard.
I have see the brood amounts and build up difference.

Of course I need to do, but I do because I have all tools and electric 10-20 yards from hives



Most of all, I have seen what warm hive means to a hive during spring.  Day temps may be  +15C but nights are under freezing point.
These findings have nothing to do with theoretical calculations.

.
Title: Re: Insulation and Heat
Post by: Finski on February 28, 2013, 03:08:43 am

I'll turn down the wattage when our day temperatures exceed the freezing point.


That makes no sense