Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: gailmo on April 27, 2012, 03:16:51 pm
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I have a hive that is WAY beyond hot. The girls come roaring out when I open the hive and my neighbors are beginning to make noises about my bees. I have been struggling with the hive all spring and yesterday made the decision to requeen.
So I purchased a new queen and last night opened the hive to see if I could find the wicked queen and pinch and smear her nasty body over a frame. Well, today I have about 20 stings on my face, neck and upper body. I discovered too late that I had a tiny hole in my veil..... and below is a photo of my gloves. And of course it was totally impossible to find the queen with thousands of bees dinging you. My husband was inside the house and said the bees hitting the windows sounded like it was hailing outside. The hive is on our back deck....
What I did for a temporary fix:
1. I took a small medium 5 frame nuc and pulled a frame of honey and two frames of brood and some worker bees and dumped them there. I put on the lid and blocked the entrance so the bees couldn't escape.
2. My plan is to put the new and hopefully calmer queen in this nuc later in the afternoon. The nuc is still plugged shut because I want to keep the bees in the nuc so they won't return to the main hive. It is cool today and I think they should be fine locked inside.
3. The queen is in a cage and I am thinking that I should just keep her locked in it for a day or so inside the nuc---I am afraid the bees will kill her if they can open up the candy entrance and get to her.
4. Once she is established and producing eggs, I will either try to move her to the nasty hive...or just pull bees from it to re-establish a new hive. This step depends upon whether I can find and kill the old queen.
Does this sound like a good plan? I am open to almost any suggestions --except for going inside the hive again! My body needs to heal! PS I ordered an new bee suit today!!!
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/stingers.jpg/)
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is this a big hive? if it's more than one box, i'd break it up as a temporary fix until you can requeen. suit up, smoke the daylights out of them, lay out some bottom boards, and put each box on a new board. you'll have drift back to where ever the queen is, but at in a few days at least one of your boxes should be more manageable.
you kind of did that with the nuc, but it might not have been enough. splitting them up into much smaller groups will hopefully be the answer. even into more nucs.
then find the queen. redistribute your frames and either requeen all or recombine after they settle down and you have requeend one or two. if you don't like the genetics, you might not want to let them raise their own in this case.
that's the best i can think of.......
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What Kathy said, and I might add don't block the entrance to the nuc let the old bees drift back leaving the young bees in the nuc. Then you can put the queen in the nuc, they will accept the queen before the more muture bees will.
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I would read what Michael Bush says about splitting a hot hive (and of course, requeening them). He even mentions how to handle it if they're too hot to find the queen, from what you described, I think he wrote that just for you. -Randy
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No photo.
I would move hot hive a few yards away. Put an empty with foundation and stores where it once was. On top of the empty put a super with open entrance with newspaper under it, install a caged queen and some brood.
Go into old hive after 2 days, kill old queen and wait 24 hours and install a caged queen for it. Works well as the population is greatly diminished in the old hive and more manageable.
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I tried to put an image in the first post, but I must be doing something wrong!
(http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/3807/stingers.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/687/stingers.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
I will try to do what you all have suggested. Right now, I need to get the queen I purchased into the small nuc. I cannot and do not want to get back into my big ...and only...hive. Right now it is five mediums. Three mediums of brood and two of honey.
I also did read what Michael Bush wrote. I am going to heed his advice, but I need to wait until I have a new bee suit. I don't want to get nailed like I did yesterday! I need major protection.
I will head out and open up the small nuc so they can get out.
Edited image code:Buzzbee
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you didn't say anything about using smoke? this is a hive that needs it for sure.
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cool picture :-D had one like that from a swarm in a thunder storm :-D had a good jacket though.....
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I had one like this once. I did as I posted above. Just my way of dealing with them.
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See this thread,hopefully this does not apply to you:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,36937.msg310084.html#msg310084 (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,36937.msg310084.html#msg310084)
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Woah, that photo is downright attention getting. I've seen photos of stung gloves that looked like that in AHB experiments. I haven't used gloves for a few years and I've gotten hit hard a few times from ill tempered hives but never in any quantities that looked anything like that. When you get 3 to 4 quick hits it causes you to reconsider what your doing and how your doing it. I'd employ Yockey5's strategy. By moving the hive all of the older field bees and guard bees will be at the original location. You be dealing with mostly nurse bee that should have a completely different attitude. Good luck!
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This hive was sweet and wonderful several years ago. Last year I did a split and moved the "sweet tempered queen" to the new split and requeened this hive. I did this in late May and by August they were really, really pissy. I posted about their temper last summer, but I took their behavior to be nasty because of the time of year. HINDSIGHT: Nasty queen!
So....I will try to get it requeened at some point. But, if I cannot do this, then I will be tempted to just pull ALL the honey in late fall and let 'em go. I know that is not a kind thing to do, but these girls make beekeeping a chore and not the joy I have experienced. Then next spring--install a new package.
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Glad to hear it's not a new package anyway. Stories like that could frighten people. I think divide and conquer too. You are being responsible trying to rid yourself of nasty bees.
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Just curious. Where did you get the nasty queen and what kind is it?
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AHB? maybe you should call your inspector. you never know. they have found a couple cases in VA last couple years. Who would of thought
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I had one hot hive that would pop you on the other side of the house from the hives. Took the blow torch to them. Knocked down their numbers a bot and smoked that queen. They requeened themselves and that daughter was as sweet as could be. Before they turned hot, I had them for over a year so the hot queen was a daughter of a bought queen from Texas the year before.
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I love that picture!
Lone
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I ordered a Golden Bee Suit today....... this will be the true test to see if it keeps these bees away from my body! It is going to take a couple of weeks for the suit to be made to my size, but hoping the wait and the price will be worth it!
I will report back on how this struggle ends.....will I win or will the bees get the best of me? STAY TUNED.....
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I think if they tried to sting me that many times I would have shaken every bee out on the ground about ten feet in front of the hive and put a board from the ground to the entrance with a queen excluder over the bottom board and reassemble the hive to look for her the next day under the excluder.
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It was suggested by a beek that I pull the honey supers and then put an excluder between the first brood box and the second box. Then use a fume board to drive the bees down and out of the box. Look for a queen on the excluder...if not there, then move the excluder down to the next box and stick on the fume board again. This seems like a good method.....but I am going to wait until I have the proper suit to protect me from these screaming devils.
.....of course, I am happy to have anyone stop by and see if they can find her for me! A round of martinis to the successful beek!
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that will work, but it would be easier to break up the hive and do it. also, be aware that queens can go through the excluder.
if you do the whole stack at once, you will have many, many, bees in the air. if you do one box at a time....better, i think.
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Divide and conquer is definitely the way to go. Also, if you have a bee suit it is wise to augment all of the places that bees might gain access with our old friend duct tape. It works wonders. Another way to help rid yourself of all the old forager bees for now would be to vacuum them up as they take off and return. A bee vac would be humane. A regular old shop vac would work but many would die (might not be a bad thing). A mean hive depleted of old foragers can be quite workable.
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Gail,
you definitely sound tough enough to tackle this problem, my experience has been that the hottest queens are also runners, they wont stay on the frame with eggs like most queens, do like BTS says break the hive down on day one, then on day 4 go in and look for eggs,and enjoy the reward
Bob
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Gailmo -
While the offer of a few martinis is tempting, from the look of your gloves, I will decline.
You're right, beekeeping should be pleasurable, so re-queening is the way to go...its just how to accomplish that is the issue.
I have new found love and respect for my own very gentle girls...
Please let us know how your saga ends!
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A shop vac will work wonders, if you just have to knock back the attack population a bit. When you have a better suit,that can get you into the hive so you can split it into 3-4 new hives. A nicer queen is fine but and queen with a big hive can be tough - the big ones have a tremendous amount of field bees.
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My recommendations on the bee suit - I agree wholeheartedly with "beyondthesidewalks" on augmenting the bee suit with duct-tape or extra gauntlets at the places you might have entry or more exposure ( i.e. at places where elastic bands pull the material closet to your body).
I'll sheepishly admit to this... Last week I got stupid, and decided to go into my big hive with no smoke. I wanted to simply grab a frame of eggs for a trap-out - but it took me MUCH longer than I expected. They got pissy, and started exploring for places to sting me. 4 went up my pants-legs. 2 got my hips, and one got a blue-ribbon for "ringing the bell", so to speak. I high-tailed it into the house to check the damage, and to mentally regroup. On my return to the the yard to put the box back together - I wound up taking a total of 27 stings to my wrists (through the heavy duty nitrile gloves) and my ankles. An hour later - I sipped a little liquid benadryl, and was good to continue working my day-job.
Whatever equipment got stung - I'd wash. You want the alarm phermone to no longer be on the gloves, veil, jacket, gauntlets, hive-tool, etc. when you go back in.
Bottom line - If they're hot - they'll be LOOKING for ways in.
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One time I just broke them up with every box from the original on it's own bottom and put a queen in a cage (the next day) in each and an empty back on the original stand. The field bees end up on the original bottom (with a queen as well). The one with the dead queen is the one with the queen. Then I broke it up into five frame nucs and let them drift. The one with the most bees has the queen. Then I broke it into two five frame nucs with two to three frames in each. Then I looked for the queen.
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Gail,
Order a suit for your cameraman too - we can't wait to see the queen finding in odious circumstances instructional video!
Lone
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I had that problem last year, but not like these "sting-happy" bees. I couldn't walk into the barnyard without getting dive bombed. I split them last June, and left the original hive and queen in the woods. They seem a lot calmer in March than come May.
I put 5 frames in a nuc, then went and got a queen from a local. They'd been queenless about 24 hours, I held the caged queen over the nuc, brushed the bees off, held her over the hive, and noted the difference. They either love her or want to kill her.
In researching what to do, I found what was called the "finger test." The idea being the happy bees would move when prodded and the angry bees would just hang on red eyed. Problem is, lonely bees don't want to let go either. If you watch, the angry bees will want to sting the cage, tear the screen off, and torture the invaders. The lonely bees will sidle up and make all kiss-kiss and nice-nice.
After a while you can prod them and get them to move though.
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Gail,
I must have missed your original post, or maaaaaaybe I just didn't want to read it for obvious reasons as I was just starting out.
How did this turn out, and what worked for finding the queen?
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Yes inquiring minds want to know.
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Gailmo,
I live in SW Florida and run into nasty wild bee colonies every now and again. My first exposure to really nasty bees ended quickly like yours did. So did the second and third try at that colony. The fourth time I went in with a new Tyvek suit complete with booties and hood from a big box store; polyethylene gloves 1/8" thick and a wide brimmed veil: lots and lots of smoke . That time I was able to stay and clean out the hive even tho I had so many bee's on the veil that i could not see out of it..
A partner and I are in the process of removing 4 colonies from under a Stilt Home (raised up on stilts so you can walk under the house) and they are hot. She came out the first day with thin leather gloves and they looked like your after 10 minutes or so. I sprayed her gloves with a mixture of Tea Tree Oil and Walnut extract in alcohol and she never got stung again.
You don't need to worry weather or not they are AHB's because the Europeans can get just as nasty.
<http://www.beesource.com/point-of-view/andy-nachbaur/bees-with-an-attitude/>
is a link to a story about hot bees that you should read.
Get a good suit, go back in armor plated and finish the queen.
Don't quit.
Regards
Joe
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Ive got a hive like that now-two of them actually. I split it this year hoping that a daughter queen wouldnt be as pissy as her mother. Now, both of them are hot. They require tons of smoke to be manageable. Darn good honey producers, but probably will be on the chopping block for requeening next year.
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Bee sure to wash those gloves before you use them again. They alone might cause an attach due to the pheromones.
Jim
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Jredburn….you mentioned a “mixture” of Tea tree oil and walnut extract. Can you elaborate on that? It sounds like something that neutralizes alarm pheromone might be good to have around.
Richard
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Here's a good video on re-queening a large hot hive.
Requeening A Vicious Honeybee Hive (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmmtjFgdqz8#)
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Great video. I hope I never have to deal with a hive that hot.
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A quick, but not totally resolved update on the hive.
I bought a Golden Bee suit and can report that you probably could be nude in it and the bees couldn't sting through it. I haven't tried wearing it that way, but honestly, it really keeps the stingers away from your body. The suit allows me to work these Nasty ladies.
Regarding the hive.....I was lazy and didn't have time nor the extra queens to do splits. I just kept tossing on extra mediums every couple of weeks. They still are very pissy but seem to have survived the summer heat well. I am in Maine right now---trying to eat every lobster in the state---but when I get home, I am going to pull any extra honey from the hive, condense the supers for winter and see how they do this winter....if they survive, I will requeen in the spring when I think it will be easier to do.
So stay tuned. When I get home, I am going to pull on my super suit and see what the girls will try to do to me! I imagine they are not going to be too happy.
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One time I just broke them up with every box from the original on it's own bottom and put a queen in a cage (the next day) in each and an empty back on the original stand. The field bees end up on the original bottom (with a queen as well). The one with the dead queen is the one with the queen. Then I broke it up into five frame nucs and let them drift. The one with the most bees has the queen. Then I broke it into two five frame nucs with two to three frames in each. Then I looked for the queen.
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BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)