Author Topic: bad queens (Read 4945 times)

JRS · « **on:** February 02, 2007, 11:14:42 am »

this is just a survey question more or less,i like to check out everything.among the queens you've ordered how many have been productive vs. not? (something to talk about)

Michael Bush · « **Reply #1 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:46:21 pm »

I raise them. I don't order them. :)

But the stories I hear are that they are being superceded and failing a lot more than they used to and are not very long lived.

Kirk-o · « **Reply #2 on:** February 02, 2007, 08:51:47 pm »

The queens I ordered last year three died in the postmans pouch.One survived from Northern ca but the hive died out.All the package bees and queea I've ordered have been Dud's with one exception Michael Bush's .I don't by package bees and queens from people who medicate or treat there bees the are polluted they die .I'm getting a
package from northern cal this april because I have credit there I'm doing small cell
when I get them.My feral bees are doing great all on small cell.
kirk-o

Cindi · « **Reply #3 on:** February 02, 2007, 11:23:22 pm »

I have purchased packages for two years now from my bee course instructor. He imports Carniolan packages from Australia and sells these packages to his old students. He does not make very much on them, perhaps simply the cost of helping with the importation cost. A very honest Chinese man that I truly 100%.

I have had good queens from these packages. They always lay very strongly with a great brood pattern.
I have not seen any queen failure or supercedure that I am aware of with these imports.

Somewhere I got an impression that when queens are sold, they are proven layers before they are put up for sale to the public. I don't recall where I read or heard this, but it stuck in my mind. It would be nice if all vendors could guarantee the queen to be good. Great day. Cindi

BEE C · « **Reply #4 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:41:15 am »

I bought mine from the same guy, hes quite an asset to the beekeeping community around here. My two queens that I bought from him did great. He doesn't buy queens that arn't mated and shown to be laying a good pattern. He gets them from a breeders with good reputations for being honest. Personally, if you don't get mated queens, i think you are setting yourself back a bit of time as I understand it. Of course if your producing your own queens you have much more control over stock selection etc...

imabkpr · « **Reply #5 on:** February 03, 2007, 07:10:19 am »

Quote from: Cindi on February 02, 2007, 11:23:22 pm

I have purchased packages for two years now from my bee course instructor. He imports Carniolan packages from Australia and sells these packages to his old students. He does not make very much on them, perhaps simply the cost of helping with the importation cost. A very honest Chinese man that I truly 100%.

I have had good queens from these packages. They always lay very strongly with a great brood pattern.
I have not seen any queen failure or supercedure that I am aware of with these imports.

Somewhere I got an impression that when queens are sold, they are proven layers before they are put up for sale to the public. I don't recall where I read or heard this, but it stuck in my mind. It would be nice if all vendors could guarantee the queen to be good. Great day. Cindi

cindi; All good queen breeders only pick queen after they have started to lay.
Last year we imported our queens { Italian } from Australia, very good queens.
Charlie

Cindi · « **Reply #6 on:** February 03, 2007, 10:49:10 am »

Charlie, good information, that is what I thought about the queen laying prior to shipping.

I think that this year I am going to do an experiment. I am pretty sure that my old Asian instructor imports Carniolan and Italian both. I would like to get some of each to do a comparison for my own uses. I like the Carniolan species that I have packaged each year, but I honestly have not tried Italian packages, so I have nothing to judge by.

I am also going to purchase some locally raised packages to see how they compared with the imported breeds from Australia.

I have had two seasons keeping bees that I have gone through since my initial beekeeping courses, level 1 and 2. I feel that I have studied the bees enough and have received and listened to some very valuable informations on the forum that I have a reasonable handle on the biology of the honeybee. I have made some incredibly dumb mistakes, had lots of success, and have learned many things through the errors that, when I look back on, do not for a moment regret. The learning curves in life generally come through trial and errors. It is all good.

I am absolutely 100% positive that the knowledge that I have gained is only the tip of the iceberg. That is why I chose to take the Bee Masters Short Course at our Simon Fraser University. That will further my understanding of this animal kingdom. I am on a mission for knowledge. I still consider myself, even after two years of living among the bees, only a novice. But that will change over time, I will become a "beemaster", that is my aspiration. Great day. Cindi

Cindi · « **Reply #7 on:** February 03, 2007, 11:01:38 am »

Quote from: BEE C on February 03, 2007, 05:41:15 am

Personally, if you don't get mated queens, i think you are setting yourself back a bit of time as I understand it. Of course if your producing your own queens you have much more control over stock selection etc...

Steve, right. If the queens are not mated the beekeeper would be set back some time. But now think about it, if a reputablebreeder sold unmated queens, it in my mind would not make logical sense because:

If the queen has not mated after 23 days or so after her birth, she will not mate ever. This isknown fact and I can't see why anyone would sell an unmated queen. So, thinking about it, Charlie is right, all reputable queen breeders sell mated queens.

About the selection of own's own stock for queen rearing. I still don't understand how beekeepers can get really guaranteed good laying queens.

I would love to hear someone give some better advice on this than I can provide, but this is the way that I understand it.

The queen governs the laying characteristics of the hive, the drone governs the temperament. That is basically it in a nutshell, maybe a little more intricate, but that is the general plan.

Now if one takes a queen cell, allows it to be reared in the mating colony and then she heads off for her mating flight, unless you were residing some long fair distance from ANY OTHER COLONIES of bees, I think it would be pretty hard to prevent the neighbouring drones not to mate with your queen. I still cannot understand how the home-raised queens can be ultimate. I don't believe it. Cheaper certainly, but the stock is not being kept pure.

Yes, if one uses their own queens, they can select the colonies' who have great laying performance and this may be carried on, but it is the drones from elsewhere that may change the temperament. I see no point to this, unless it is a non-issue, with regard to whom impregnates the queen.

Just my two cents. Input from forum gurus would be great. Great day. Cindi

Michael Bush · « **Reply #8 on:** February 03, 2007, 12:13:51 pm »

>Somewhere I got an impression that when queens are sold, they are proven layers before they are put up for sale to the public.

Seeing a few eggs is all anyone looks for. A "proven layer" would have to be in the hive a few weeks to see if she's not laying blanks (drones) or laying a good pattern. Only breeder queens are assessed like that and they usually go for $200 or more.

Cindi · « **Reply #9 on:** February 03, 2007, 12:32:30 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on February 03, 2007, 12:13:51 pm

>Somewhere I got an impression that when queens are sold, they are proven layers before they are put up for sale to the public.

Seeing a few eggs is all anyone looks for. A "proven layer" would have to be in the hive a few weeks to see if she's not laying blanks (drones) or laying a good pattern. Only breeder queens are assessed like that and they usually go for $200 or more.

Michael, I don't know if I agree with you 100%, this information about the breeder queens only being assessed like that and going for $200 or more. Honestly, how do you know that it is only breeder queens and not "regular" queens that can be imported elsewhere that have been tested in the hive for a couple of weeks? Maybe they are tested in breeding pattern and blanks elsewhere. Hmm.. Great day. Cindi

TwT · « **Reply #10 on:** February 03, 2007, 01:23:04 pm »

Cindi, most times once a queen starts laying they are package and shipped out to free up equipment for next round of queens, a queen rearer that has 500-1000 hives or less and raises and sales 10,000 + queens a year doesn't have time or equipment to sit back and watch a queen for 2-4 weeks to see how good a layer she is, when you buy breeder queens you want the best and these are watch and graded for the best a breeder can supply, that's why they cost a small fortune, breeder queen rearers dont raise a whole lot of queens like regular queen rearers......

Michael Bush · « **Reply #11 on:** February 03, 2007, 02:02:49 pm »

>Honestly, how do you know that it is only breeder queens and not "regular" queens that can be imported elsewhere that have been tested in the hive for a couple of weeks?

You don't. But if you paid $200 and she's a drone layer, I'm guessing neither you nor anyone you know is going to pay that for them again. :)

Cindi · « **Reply #12 on:** February 03, 2007, 03:25:11 pm »

Quote from: TwT on February 03, 2007, 01:23:04 pm

Cindi, most times once a queen starts laying they are package and shipped out to free up equipment for next round of queens, a queen rearer that has 500-1000 hives or less and raises and sales 10,000 + queens a year doesn't have time or equipment to sit back and watch a queen for 2-4 weeks to see how good a layer she is, when you buy breeder queens you want the best and these are watch and graded for the best a breeder can supply, that's why they cost a small fortune, breeder queen rearers dont raise a whole lot of queens like regular queen rearers......

Ted, OK, that freeing up space for next round of queens does make some good sense. But your comments now brings about another question. On the suppostion that when one buys a queen, and should she be a drone layer (obviously unfertilized), does the queen rearer replace that queen? I would imagine that it would be a necessary part of good business politics. But how could that be proven. Could probably not be proven and the vendor would have to take the word of the buyer?

I would imagine that receiving an unfertilized queen would probably be, in my opinion, fairly rare?

It makes sense that the company selling breeder queens would have to charge more from what you are saying. Indeed, rearing small numbers of breeder queens.

I have to wonder how many people actually do pay the high price and get proven breeder queens. Probably queen breeders, correct? Thanks for input. Great day. Cindi

Cindi · « **Reply #13 on:** February 03, 2007, 03:26:25 pm »

Quote from: Michael Bush on February 03, 2007, 02:02:49 pm

>Honestly, how do you know that it is only breeder queens and not "regular" queens that can be imported elsewhere that have been tested in the hive for a couple of weeks?

You don't. But if you paid $200 and she's a drone layer, I'm guessing neither you nor anyone you know is going to pay that for them again. :)

Michael, right makes total sense. Great day. Cindi

Michael Bush · « **Reply #14 on:** February 03, 2007, 04:11:42 pm »

>On the suppostion that when one buys a queen, and should she be a drone layer (obviously unfertilized), does the queen rearer replace that queen?

That has been my experience. Usually they ship you another queen without charge and without any protest.

TwT · « **Reply #15 on:** February 03, 2007, 05:15:58 pm »

also Cindi almost all breeder queens are AI or II and pure breed, that is another reason for the high price's

Cindi · « **Reply #16 on:** February 04, 2007, 10:11:29 am »

Good. Just like in the plant kingdom. F1 hybrid seeds are much more expensive than the F2, open pollinated, etc. But simply superior in almost every way. I choose mostly for the F1 hybrid when I choose seeds for planting. I do plant some "heirloom" and open pollinated, but my experience has shown that it pays to pay a little extra for a better thing. Great day. Cindi

Understudy · « **Reply #17 on:** February 04, 2007, 10:46:55 am »

You know I came to this thread and expected it to be about something more like this:

That is Agent Smith from The Matrix playing Tick in Priscilla, Queen of the Desert.

Cindi:
My wife found your previous response interesting . She grows the heirloom and open pollination veggies and plants. Because she can't save the seeds from the hybrids because you don't know what was mixed together to make that hybrid. The hybrid seeds don't usually match the plant they came from.

TwT:
I thought most queens might be artificialy insemenated. Do you have a reference I can use that with I need to bring that to my my next beekeepers meeting.

Sincerely,
Brendhan

Cindi · « **Reply #18 on:** February 04, 2007, 11:07:49 am »

Brendhan. Absolutely correct about the seed from the hybrid. The hybrid is the best of the best of the plant variety bred together. If one were to save the seed from hybrid, it would resemble in some cases something like either of the parents, sometimes not even close. I have tried to save seed from some hybrid flowers just for the fun of it. The resulting plants are interesting to say the least. Quite a bit of resemblence to one of the parents.

I still will grow many F1 hybrid plants. They are superior in many ways. The vegetables, some I will will use the F1. They are superior in many ways too. Good breeding can produce wonderful results and I am not afraid of it.

The open pollinated and heirloom will ALWAYS be a very big part of my life as well though. I toggle in both of these directions depending on what I want. Great day. Cindi

TwT · « **Reply #19 on:** February 04, 2007, 03:17:12 pm »

not sure what you are needing? but with queens, unless you pay big money for a breeder queen, all the queens you buy are open mated and that's every queen rearer. only breeder queens are inseminated and sold. just think when you ordered your bee's I would guest you thought you were getting pure Italians, the way it goes odds are she isn't pure but close or carries the characteristics....... who really knows!!!!