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Author Topic: how much insulation- look at a freezer  (Read 3178 times)

Offline Finski

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how much insulation- look at a freezer
« on: February 14, 2011, 11:38:05 am »
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Look at a freezer. It has -18C inside and you room has +22C. It is 40 C degree difference between sides of the wall.

What is the thicknes of the wall and what is inside?
In my freezer thickness is 50 mm.

In thermos the insulation gap is perhaps 10 mm and it has nothing, not even air.

In the grocery  the biggest energy cost is cooling. In former days freezing pools were uncovered because cold air does not rise up ... in theory. When the pools are covered with transparent cap, it saves 25% energy.




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Offline BlueBee

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 03:25:44 pm »
Finski,

I’ve got a good insulation question for you.

Can you insulate the bees too much?

How thick is the insulation in your hives?

Offline Finski

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 03:38:22 pm »

Can you insulate the bees too much?

It is handy to work with standard system. It makes things easy.

if The climate is so hostile that stryfoam insulation is not enough, then you may cover them into snow, winter in cellar or in shelter


Quote
How thick is the insulation in your hives?


Then thin parts of styrofom walls are 30 mm. My inner cover has 5 - 7 cm insulation.

Bottom board is 6 mm ply.

These hives are kept on areas where -30C is usual.



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Offline BlueBee

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 03:56:43 pm »
Finski,

Based on your photos, it sounds like your hives also have a good coating of snow insulation.

If you were to guess, what percentage of bee keepers in Finland do you think:
Winter in wood hives?
Winter in poly hives?
Winter indoors or in cellers?

Offline Finski

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 04:43:48 pm »

If you were to guess, what percentage of bee keepers in Finland do you think:

All winter in insulated hives. If you do yourself the hives, wooden or ply is only solution.

If you buy new hives, poly hive price is under a half of wooden.


About cellars I do not know how many they are. One professional told that he has in cellar or in unused cattle house 5 frames nucs and normal hives are out.


Professionals have hudreds of hives and I think they are in same place year around. In western Finland snow is mostly under 30 cm. In eastern Finland  50-100 cm. I think that it is impossible to collect 500 hives in one place and then in spring again spread them out.

Biggest beekeeper has 3000 hives.

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Offline edward

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 07:47:55 pm »
Based on your photos, it sounds like your hives also have a good coating of snow insulation.
If you were to guess, what percentage of bee keepers in Finland do you think:
Winter in wood hives?
Winter in poly hives?
Winter indoors or in cellars?

On the other side of the Bay of Botnia , or the Baltic Sea we have Edward :-P in Sweden :-D

When it snows wee are happy to see a warm winter hat on the hive , it also helps isolate the hive from heat loss and holds the roof in place.

In Sweden 98% of beekeepers and hobby beekeepers insulate there hives , the most popular hives are made from poly hives , also they are easier to Carry and work with.

 Some Beekeepers like to go against the flow/currant , so some don't insulate , but they have to compensate with more winter feed.

Wintering indoors or in cellars is not a widespread practice , The benefits of indoors/cellars is that you can reduce the amount of winter feed needed because a constant temperature , the bees don't have to adjust the in hive climate .

Also 99.% of bee hives Ventilate out moisture from floor ventilation and do not ventilate out of the top of the hive.

mvh edward :P

It may seem odd to you guys but the bees seem to bee OK  :-D

Offline BlueBee

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 08:04:05 pm »
Thanks Edward, it’s always great to hear from you too!

So Edward, no top ventilation for you?  I assume you’re using a solid bottom board, or a closed bottom in the winter?  So is your only ventilation the bee’s exit hole on the bottom? 

I will have to look back over some of Finski’s posts, but I’m pretty sure he reports using top ventilation in Finland.

Offline edward

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 10:51:39 pm »
Here come some pics , both bottoms are of high density poly , They both rely on a cold draft over the floor to ventilate damp air

This hive bottom (nacka botten ) will ventilate even when the hive is covered in snow , Its also good in the fight against varroa mite because they can fall through the mesh.

One of the draw backs is if a lot of dead bees accumulate on the floor ventilation can bee restricted , and in a worst case suffocation of the hive.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us





This is the one I use (universal botten ) I think it was designed by a group of professional Swedish beekeepers. costs about 22 dollars

It is what we call a high or deep bottom .

In the front there are 2 entrances , with 3 different settings , the top setting is wide enough for one bee , the bottom is 2 bees wide , but there is a wooden bar that can reduce the opening to 1 bee width , This also acts as a mouse guard under the winter season.

The hive should slope slightly down towards the back of the bottom board , this will allow any moisture to drain out of the hive.

The metal grate causes the cold air to condense and drain out. Also i acts as a blind lure entrance to fool robbing bees.

The metal grate is easy to remove to inspect the hive , treat varroa , clean the floor.



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mvh edward :P
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:33:41 pm by edward »

Offline BlueBee

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 11:20:21 pm »
Edward, it’s always interesting to learn how people keep bees in extreme climates.  Thanks so much for sharing.  As you say, it’s the results that count.  Live bees are always better than dead bees.

If you ask 10 bee keepers in the USA how to best winter bees, you get 15 different answers. :)  There are probably lots of ways that will work.

So do you leave those bottom screens open all winter in Sweden?

Offline edward

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 11:55:40 pm »
 :shock: WHAT !!  :shock: only 15 different answers from 10 beekeepers , So you guys are more or less on the same page ?  :-D

<<<< So do you leave those bottom screens open all winter in Sweden?

This is were i gets really Weird and backwards !!

In  the spring and summer to promote early build up and to ease the bees to draw out new comb we close up / greatly reduce the rear grate ventilation ,
 " With the bee keepers best friend Duct tape "  ;)
 Also leave the mouse bar i place and close even the extra top entrance
This makes the hive easier to keep warm.

In the winter we open the barn door so there is a draught over the floor.  :-D

Sounds a bit crazy but it works.

When the necktar flow is good and they dry nectar to honey it is best to have all the vents open.

Also in the winter it is recommended that the bees use propolis to seal any draft in the roof , or not , they will do what they think is best .  ;)


mvh edward :P

Offline Finski

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 02:01:47 am »
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As long as I have been as beekeeper, guys have invented new sensational
bottom boards. And they are many.  But that mesh boar, it is meant to varroa, not to bees.  :-*

Because bottoms do not bring honey, I use old bottoms. Easy to make them DIY

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Offline edward

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 02:38:37 am »
When a swarm of bees choose a new house they can end up in a wall or a chimney , so we should design our hives out of bricks and coat the inside with burnt ashes  :-D

mvh edward :P

the bees know what they want. and whats best  :roll:

Offline Finski

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Re: how much insulation- look at a freezer
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 09:33:30 am »
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So they do but all chimney colonies die in winter. Stone wall conduct all heat away.
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