Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: Ocean on June 13, 2005, 04:42:08 pm
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Hey everyone, from previous posts, i've already told everyone for some reason my bees keep doing fake swarms? or i dont know what they are doing... ok so i decided to buy another hive and split them, but the thing is i dont even know how to do it...
about 3 times a week they swarm and come back, i dont know why, yes it is really hot these past few weeks, but why arent they leaving? they keep coming back...
so now i have a brand new hive that i can split half of them into, what should i do? and how should i do it.. i also have a Swarm lure, if its any usefull..
Please help..
by the way its my first year keeping bees..
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I have been reading your posts, and seen the photo's. Are you sure your bees are swarming, and not bearding? Are you sure you are seeing queen cels, and not drone cells? Can you move that hive out from under the eve of your house? Get rid of the deflector thingy on the top, and vent the hive. Bees will hang out on the front porch on hot days (bearding) not the same as swarming.
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If they actually fly off and cluster on a tree somewhere that's kind of suspicious. If they are just bearding this is normal. Is the old queen capable of flying? Are her wings frayed? Is she clipped?
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ok i know what u mean by bearding, yes they do that too, but when i say swarming,, i mean litterally they all get in the air and they make a loud sound for about 3-5 min, than they get on the tree, after that they come back down to the hive... they have done this about 5 times already... i will take pictures of the swarm on the tree right now.... and post the pictures in 15 min.
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here are the pictures of my swarm. that is still on the tree.
seems like some bees are cooling down the hive entrace while the rest are still on the tree....
and yes i took off that metal roof that they had :)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/b.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/c.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/a.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/d.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/e.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/f.jpg)
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I have been reading your posts, and seen the photo's. Are you sure your bees are swarming, and not bearding? Are you sure you are seeing queen cels, and not drone cells? Can you move that hive out from under the eve of your house? Get rid of the deflector thingy on the top, and vent the hive. Bees will hang out on the front porch on hot days (bearding) not the same as swarming.
Out of the 3 things you told me to do, 1. I cannot move the hive, because on the other side there is this neighbor ( if u know what i mean lol :( ) 2. About seeing queen cells? maybe i dont really know, next time i go in there i'll make sure to bring the camera and take some pictures.... 3. And yes i took off the deflector thingy from the top of the hive ;)... so out of the 3 i only did 1. 100% right lol...
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I guess I'd look at these issues.
Can the queen fly. If not, then they may be tyring to swarm but she is not joining them. In which case they will eventually leave with a virgin queen.
Are there swarm cells? They are pretty easy to find by tipping the box up and looking at the bottom bars. They usually stick down. If there are swarm cells then you know they are trying to swarm.
If you find supercedure cells, maybe this is just mating flights by a new queen.
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I guess I'd look at these issues.
Can the queen fly. If not, then they may be tyring to swarm but she is not joining them. In which case they will eventually leave with a virgin queen.
Are there swarm cells? They are pretty easy to find by tipping the box up and looking at the bottom bars. They usually stick down. If there are swarm cells then you know they are trying to swarm.
If you find supercedure cells, maybe this is just mating flights by a new queen.
i dont know if she can fly or not, since i got my bees i didnt find the queen, because the place i bought my bees they said they dont mark queens or clip them..
about the swarm cells, well about 2 weeks ago i did inspection on my hive and found a couple of them and cut them off and threw them out...
if my swarm comes back... which it mostly like will, because it did this before about 5 times... what would be my next step???? like i said iam ready to split them any minute, i just dont know how to go about doing so....
please tell me what should i do next.
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Here are some various pictures I've caught before. The first two are queen cells, the last one is drone cells.
Supercedure cell - sticking out like a peanut
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid105/pa9e8c91dff2bc5536aa763d706cd361d/f97dff12.jpg)
Swarm cell - strangely on the top of a frame rather than the bottom
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid116/p81454fb08cbe9c8d40e243dd696f4a08/f8b403d9.jpg)
Drone cells in a cluster
(http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid105/pf738466219fcd2a74070b940952c85b2/f97e0580.jpg)
Hope this helps,
Beth
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than yes i had about 4-6 Queen cells that i cut off from the bottom of each frame...
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I'm sure you'll get lots of answers (some may seem conflicting) on this. But here's my thoughts.
- Since it appears your hive is trying to swarm, and have done this several times, then time may be short. But it's not a loss at this time.
- You cut out the swarm cells, but they can make more. If the queen is still there, then eggs she lays can become a queen.
:?: Something I'm not sure on.... if the queen died, and they want to take off with a virgin, then I'm guessing they could end up without eggs? And be unable to make another queen?
Splits are not too hard.
- Needed..... two boxes, and enough frames for each.
- Frames with brood go in the centers.
- Honey and pollen frames outside that.
- Unfinished foundation frames farthest outside.
:?: :?: Do you see any frames with queen cells? If so, put one of those frames in each hive. If not, buy queens ASAP and install just as you would with a new package.
Suggestion..... since your hive is in your backyard, in a possibly sunny spot, you might need to do some work so both hives get some shade. Because it looked like the best spot is RIGHT in the corner, and two hives won't fit there. I can't remember what you have said about shade during the day. But I had a thought.
- What about buying some lattice and making a nice little bee yard in that corner? I can imagine a really cute little area. Ground cover. Ceder chips. Lattice wall for some shade. Flowers? :)
(sigh) Expanding already. :) Bet you had no idea your babies would make you a "grandpa" so soon huh? LOL They multiply fast!!
Keep us informed as to how it's going,
Beth
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I have never seen destroying queen cells stop them from swarming. Sometimes they swarm with the old queen leaving the hive queenless and sometimes they wait to start some new swarm cells and then leave with the old queen. I've also never seen a clipped queen stop them. They act just like you have been describing and then leave with a young virgin. Perhaps you're old queen has frayed wings and can't fly and you destroyed the queen cells, so they keep trying to swarm with the old queen, who doesn't join them and they can't find a young queen to leave with. My bet is they have started more queen cells and that is probably fortunate. In the end the bees MAY leave without any queen if they get frustrated enough.
A split is cake. Go through the hive and recreate the same arrangment except half goes in each hive. In other words put the brood together in the middle with pollen and honey outside of that and honey above that into two boxes facing the old location. That way the field bees will drift more evenly into them both. If there are queen cells, give some to each half. If that queen has frayed wings maybe they need to replace her anyway. If they change their mind because of the split they can have a new queen if they decide they want one, or keep the old one if they decide they want her. Of course it's possible they could still swarm, but hopefully you'll head that off.
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Michael and Chick-Bee thanx alot for all the usefull information, tomorrow i will get to work and make that split as you guys told me to do it, than i will take the final pictures and let you know what is going on...
before i'll make the split i will take the pictures on what is going on , on the inside of the first hive and than show you my location, how i setup my 2 hives, if i need adjustmetns please let me know...
wow , thanx alot for everything guys, i really appreciate it, iam glad i have this website so i can turn to, and find answers anytime of the day. :) you guys are all great!
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The forum has turned out really nice, and there are enough of use "addicted" to the place that an answer is usually pretty darn quick. :) Thankfully I haven't had any problems myself lately, but I sure had a bunch of silly questions at first. Or I thought they were silly questions anyway. It's nice to have a group of people to chat with about my favorite stuff - bees, chickens, gardening, outdoor things - and always find a friend that's ready to listen and share with.
Well, enough with the mushy stuff. If I go on..... I might just bring tears to ya'all. :wink:
Beth
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Basic problem seems to be, that hive is full and you still feed with syrup.
Main reason for swarming is continuous feeding. It is not normal that new hive, which has to build foundations, is willing to swarm.
* Take those metal plates off that you can handle you box easily.
* Take food frames off and extract them. Give them space that way
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:roll: You just need to add some more room. I run two deeps just for the brood nest and this time of year I will have from 2 to 5 supers. You can have a lot of swarms from a hive that small. as soon as they fill the frames with brood and honey its time to add another super. If you keep up with them and keep at least one super that they can work on they will not swarm. If you are extracting the super and putting it back on you will still run out of room. Use enough supers so you can add them till the flow is over and the queen slows down a bit. Then extract them all at one time. That’s when I like to make my splits for the next year. A strong hive will out produce two or some times three small hives. so just keep adding room till your honey flow slows down.
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ok i would say i got sorta bad news, but maybe not that bad to you professional beekepers..
here it is, as you know yesterday my bees swarmed, well they used to come back when they used to do that about 2 weeks straight, well this time i woke up this mourning and did not see them... :( i guess they left
So i went in into the hive and found something out....
1. Obvious decrease in population....
2. the middle super was full with honey, 2-4 frames were already capped.. as you see on the picture... and rest were still being worked on...
3. the highest super was not even drawn out yet...
4. the hive body now... this what concerned me... a. I still seen alot of brood waiting to be capped.... b. i found 2 queen cells. ( i took the picture u'll c it below, please confirm thats my new virgin queen. ) c. i've seen about 5 or 6 drones on each frame hanging around....
5. what i decided to do is to split them... so i took some 2 honey frames and 3 brood frames and put them into the other New hive that was ready for them... ( i also provided them with sugar syrup )....
6. I took away only 2 capped supers with honey..
--==Outlook--==: New Hive: Has 5 frames 2 with honey and 3 with brood ( 1 of them had the queen cell ), it also has the sugar suryp..
Old hive.. Has 5 Old frames, no sugar suryp, and also one frame with the queen cell....
Like i said, iam totally new to this beutiful beekeeping expriance, so please teach me and tell me what i did wrong, what should i do? and how should i fix it... Thanx alot, iam open for any suggestions...
Tomorrow when i have my tools i will take away those metal springs that i have on right now...
Also i was thinking should i buy a new queen? just in case, and where should i buy it?
ok lets cut to the chase and see the pix :)
i included some other pictures of myself so u guys actually know who u speaking with :)
here they are :
supers with honey
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2460.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2461.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2464.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2465.jpg)
here are the brood frame with the queen cell ? am i right?
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2466.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2467.jpg)
and this is me and behind me is my car
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v175/Dasik/100_2209.jpg)
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1. Obvious decrease in population...
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Normally half of bees go in first swarm.
.3. the highest super was not even drawn out yet......
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If bees have idea to swarm, they do not draw foundations
Also, if hive has bees enough, it cannot use the space.
.5. what i decided to do is to split them... so i took some 2 honey frames and 3 brood frames and put them into the other New hive that was ready for them... ( i also provided them with sugar syrup ).....
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It is late now when swarm escaped. Splitting is for prevent swarming.
No your both hives are too slow to develope. It is better keep them in one and you get a new queen.
What went wrong? Hives was full of honey and queen had no space to lay eggs. Too much syrup. Also bees have got lot of pollen, and surely they have got honey from nature.
Never mind. You are the first to do this. It took me 3 years before I got honey from mine hives when I started.
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Definately looks like a queen cell! You see how it has a different texture to it? Way different from just a bulging drone cell.
Sounds like you did fine. The split sounds like it has all it needs.
This is one thing I get so confused about. They had room. They had lots of brood, so the queen had places to lay. You had ventilation. Why do they swarm in what appears to be a great environment?
Give it all some time now, and let those queens hatch/mate/and start laying. Buying a queen is up to you, but I wouldn't right now. I'd try and see if they do alright raising this one. If you want a new queen, not one raised from your hive, you can always requeen in the fall.
I don't think it's a bad idea to split. There appears to be enough brood, bees, and food to start two hives. Heck, a 2 pound package is not a whole lot of bees, and they do fine.
Great pics.
Beth
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Oh, and I wanted to say..... last year (March 17th, 2004) my hive swarmed. That same week I went ahead and split the hive. Only one side had a queen cell, and I wasn't even sure about it being a queen cell. Anyway, I bought two new queens just incase several weeks later. Ended up only needing one.
I guess I sorta did something dumb, but it worked out. I put the queen cages in each hive without finding the one queen and killing her. I suppose I took a chance of both queens that would fight dieing. It all worked out. Both hives grew wonderfully.
Beth
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They had room. They had lots of brood, so the queen had places to lay. You had ventilation. Why do they swarm in what appears to be a great environment?
That is not true Beth. It is small colony and it can keep warm only certain space.
* When colony is established bees occupy a certain room.
I* t takes 3 weeks untill new bees emerge. During that time half of bees have died and colony cannot use any more space.
* After that when new bees have emerged, colony can grow.
* a frame full of brood gives 3 frames bees. If you have 4 frames brood, you will get a whole box bees. And after that they are emerging all the time.
Same thing happens if you put swarm in the box. If queen is virgin, bees can fill the box during one week and queen have no space for eggs.
One year I gived to swarm 3 empty box and I put it on rape field. When I went to look it next weekend, there was one box brood, and the rest capped honey and colony was swarmed. It got 100 lbs honey during one week.
It happens all the time if you are not aware. But how beginner can know or understand?
Small colony is not able to handle honey, pollen, brood and eggs. It will be full and so they swarm. That is their natural course.
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Your pics have been good
If you didn't send pictures to forum, it would be impossible to get right sight and magnitude on your case. You have good pictures.
There are many right alternatives to act. The variation will come with experience. It is like tool box where you take a proper tool.
Many beekeepers do acts like robots, even if act is not needed. Order or schedule is their key word. I try to see hives life in natural way and I lead it somehow to my directions. I avoid to do tricks which are against their mood. I think that bees try to correct the acts which are against their instincts and it takes energy.
Bee books teach that you much do things which encourage bees to gather honey and keep busy in their hive. If bees became lazy, it is difficult to change their mind. You can see often bigg ball hanging under the landing board when hive is hot or full of honey. When you help situation, it takes several days before ball is again away and working.
Carniola are that kind of bees that when they got in their head to swarm, it was difficult to turn their heads. They prefer loose their mind than cancel their swarming. Awfull gangs! They did not accept me. That is why they tryed to escape , I think :wink:
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lol thanx alot for the information, iam glad iam learning as i go along with my experiance
hey i was thinking about it, this is my frist year and i already got about 60 pounds of pure honey for myself if i want to take it or not :) lol... i guess iam doing ok for a newbie....
the 2 frames that were full with honey i am eating as we speak,, the honey tastes so good the wax i chew and spit out :) it can't get better than that..
your own honey , wow the best medicine for your health :)...
well i decided to leave them alone for about a week, and see how both hives adjust to the new environment.. i will be taking more pictures tomorrow just to follow up on things...
iam really happy i have people like you Finsky and Chick-Bee, that can always give a suggestion :) or advice... thanx alot to everyone again...
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quick question i forgot to ask... the middle super is full with honey but not capped yet... should i move it to the top? or wait till it is fully capped, and than just take the honey?
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quick question i forgot to ask... the middle super is full with honey but not capped yet... should i move it to the top? or wait till it is fully capped, and than just take the honey?
It is now difficult when swarm and most honey collectors are gone. Now you do not have queen and they fill what ever cells. You just wait that new bees emerge and they are over 2 weeks old to gather honey.
When you get queen, bees again move nectar away that queen have free cells for eggs. That is why there must be open space all the time for reforming their hive area. They can only act inside the area they can keep warm, even if you had drawn combs. I have used 8-15 W terrarium heater and with that help small colony can use 3 fold more room in the box and it developes 3 times faster in summer.
Honey must be capped 80% before you extract it.
Gather most capped frames to top. If foundation box is empty, take it away. It only takes warm from honey and brood.
When bees have no egg laying queen, it is not eager to draw foundations.
You should have a new egg laying queen. It is not usefull to wai your own swarm queen. It takes 2-3 weeks ultill it starts egg laying. During that time egg laying queen makes one box full of brood.
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hey Finsky i thought about it and i think you are right, i need to get at least a new queen for my old hive so they dont leave :( because i woke up just now and i see the hive is kinda dead, the bees are just standing around the hive not doing anything llol.... some bees come back with polen, not as many bees flying at all..
so iam thinking of buying a new queen... where can i buy it? and i think i need it to be here quick.. can u give me some sites? or phone numbers where i can order one quick and so it comes here fast...
thanx alot finsky in advance
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Try Frank Lagrant in Massachusetts. He raises some nice queens. 413-967-5064
http://members.aol.com/lagrants
The website is a year out of date, but he's definitely in business.
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Try Frank Lagrant in Massachusetts. He raises some nice queens. 413-967-5064
http://members.aol.com/lagrants
The website is a year out of date, but he's definitely in business.
i called them , they said they dont have queens right now, told me to call back in a month
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hey i just found a website and ordered one marked and clipped queen for $18 shipped. they said it will be here on monday...
here is the website http://www.gabees.com/
please tell me if its good or not?
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I bought my package and queen from Rossman. I am very satisfied.
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Yeah, they're good. That's where I bought my original package, and later two queens.
Beth
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Glad you found someone! Too bad Frank didn't have any. Everyone I know that get his bees is ultra satisfied.
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Rossman is a good place to buy from. It would seem to me that the prices for nearly all their equipment are better priced than most places. Especially the apiary nearest to me.
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draper still has Italian and SMaRt queens ( I ordered one yesterday) but no Buckfasts left. Does ANYONE have any buckfasts left?
beefree
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hey everyone, today i should be getting my new queen that i ordered on thursday... well now i need to introduce her to the hive... what are some steps that i should take? or should i just put the queen cage in there and let them take care of the queen? or i should do something else????
another question i have, is i see too many drones on my frames.. should i get rid of them? or my girls will take care of that problem themselves?
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and yes pictures of the new queen are coming soon :)
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anyone?
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You're looking for answer to your drone question?
How do you determine there are too many drones? If the bees think they need that many, and you get rid of them, they will use more resources to make more drones. I think they will run them off when they are ready.
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another question i have, is i see too many drones on my frames.. should i get rid of them? or my girls will take care of that problem themselves?
It is not problem. It is life. No use if you kill them.
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If you've been feeding them this whole time, then any, "honey" you get is gonna be a mixture of nectar honey and sugar-water honey. It will most likely not be pure honey.