Breeder Queens

[Stingtarget]

Just learned a new term - breeder queen.  I have purchased several queens over the last 2 years for my Italian hive.  Replaced several, as in, my queens have been terrible!  My original Russian queen from two years ago will need to be replaced this spring.  The hive was terribly agressive this last year.  She was an excellent layer and produced tons of bees but their attitude has changed for the worse.  That one particular hive I no longer enjoy working....I do it because it's my responsiblity....but enjoy it...no!

My Italians on the other hand are normal bees.  Most of the time they're easily worked but there have been days when I'm in a hurry or its simply too hot and they get rowdy.  Normal for bees.  I enjoy working them as I can understand the reason for their mood swings.

Have been looking at breeder queens at high prices.  The Russian colony will be requeened and as I've read and heard, Russian colonies are hard to requeen with Italian queens.  Sometimes it takes a couple of queens before they accept her.  What happens if I drop $150 on a proven breeder queen and they kill her or she goes AWOL?  Am I out the $150?

[Kathyp]

i wouldn't do it.  what is your goal?  is this a hobby and you just want to get some honey for yourself and maybe a bit to sell?  why spend so much?  i'd get a 20 dollar queen from a good breeder and be done with it.

[Stingtarget]

Goal is 2 more hives for a total of 4.  Last year I had a ton of trouble keeping an queen in my Italian hive.  The first one was AWOL, the second one never laid an egg, the third was missing (I think my error in putting the hive back together crushed her..not sure...my next inspection of the hive revealed no queen.  And the fourth was an excellent layer.

Russian queen has been superior layer compared to the Italians but the Russians have become far too agressive.  Would like to requeen.  The cost share program here in NC that gave me the hives for free explained the the Russian strain would have more Varroa resistance and would be more gentle than the Italians.  In speaking with other cost share recipients the Russians have across the board been anything but gentle.

I would like an excellent laying queen without the trial and error of continuous requeening.  I lost 2 months with my Italian hive doing requeening.  Luckily our major honey flow comes in September.

[Stingtarget]

I figure...if I requeen with a $20 queen and she's a good layer I'm ahead.  If however it takes 4 queens at $80 total and I lose 2 months of buildup...am I better to use a breeder queen.  This year gave all my honey away except what I kept for myself.  They produced a very smooth mild honey that was unusual from other beekeepers.  Seems like other beekeepers ultra filter their honey.  I like mine a little more cloudy.  I'm not in it to win some kind of color ribbon at a fair.  Luckily I came out with my first crop that was a little cloudy looking but had an excellent taste.  The people I gave the honey would like to buy it in the future.  Want to move up to 4 hives and test the water to see what happens.  Not looking for a big profit.  Would like to make enough to cover my medication, feed, and hive parts.

[Michael Bush]

The only reason to buy a breeder queen is to raise queens to sell or at least raise hundreds of queens for your own use.

If you want a good queen, find someone nearby with local adapted stock who is using no chemicals.  The short lives and poor mating in recent years is mostly due to a buildup of the Varroacides in the wax which not only affect the queens but also the drones.

[Kathyp]

one other thing, and people with more experience than i can help you.....re-examine the way you re-queen.  i have been told that there are a number of things that we, who are less experienced, do wrong.  one is not letting the hive go queenless for a few days, and another is releasing the queen to quickly.

i'm sure folks here can give you some good advice on it when you are ready.

note on Russians:  that's what i started with last year.  they were very gentle.  they re-queened themselves sometime during the year, and were less gentle after that......later temperament probably had a lot to do with the time of the year.  my experience was similar to yours.  the original queen was a super layer.  from one 3lb package she and her daughter(s) filled 3 deep supers full and gave me honey on top of that.

[tig]

i've heard russian queens tend to be more aggressive than italians.  why not try carniolans?  most of my hives are carniolans and i seldom come across an agressive hive and they are excellent honey and pollen gatherers.

with regards breeder queens, they are what they are named...breeders!  they are used for queen rearing from small scale to large scale and not usually used for honey production.  the cost is too prohibitive unless you would like to make your own queens.

[Stingtarget]

I introduced all my queens the same way except for the last one which has been in there for almost a year now. I told my mentor (an "old timer") that I was having trouble requeening.  He told me to fill a spray bottle with 1:1 sugar water and put in a teaspoon (maybe less, I can't remember) of vanilla extract.  I was to open the hive and lightly mist each side of each frame in the brood nest and mist the queen cage.  Remember - this was early last summer and the weather was warm.  He told me that if all the bees in the hive smelled similar to the queen they would accept her scent.  I honestly don't know if this is what solved the problem.....but the queen took and I still have her currently.

Seems like the breeder may have been the majority of the problem.  The queens I was receiving came from South Georgia.  The local bee store would take orders, drive to S. Ga on a Friday and have queens and or packages available for pickup on Saturday mornings here in NC.  I don't know how long the queens were in their cages prior to the bee store getting them but they were emaciated.  Very tiny queens in poor health.

[Finsky]

.
If someone has 4 hives and different races, it is difficult to say if differencies are rcae question. If you have 4 italians they may be as different as 4 Russians. Often they are crossbreeded in second generation. To loose queens, it is normal without vast experience.

[GNHONEY]

breeder queens are for making more queen to sell or for your own just try to buy queens in local area or in a area that resembles your area   --gnhoney--

[Stingtarget]

I don't have the experience to raise my own queens.  How hard would it be to get started?  I live in an agricultural area - most of the landscape in surrounding counties is apple trees or organic farms - and there are more than your average hobby bee keepers and several large commercial outfits. The commercial guys have "patented" queens and therefore do not sell them.  Wish someone locally would raise reputable queens to sell.  Seems like there is a strong market for them.  Hobby bee keepers depend on out of state breeders to send queens to us.  Mine have come from South Georgia and the only other gentleman close is Arnold Bee Services in Knoxville, TN...3 hour round trip.  Heard from a friend that Arnold's queens have been solid producers.  What if I could raise 20 queens a year and offer them for sale locally and a take orders from the local bee store as well?  Would it be worth it for a beginner to learn queen rearing?

[Finsky]

. The commercial guys have "patented" queens and therefore do not sell them. 

If you raise your on queens you will get "patented genes" via drones for free.

[Michael Bush]

>I don't have the experience to raise my own queens.  How hard would it be to get started? 

It's both hard and easy.  :)  It takes some tweaking to get a LOT of really good queens, but it's not hard to get some fairly good queens in small numbers:

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesqueenrearing.htm

The Hopkins method doesn't really require any purchase of equipment.  You only have to build a shim to hold the frame horizontally.

[TwT]

the thing that got me last year raising queens was not enough equipment and not enough hives to shake bee's from making nucs, it will surprise you, I could have raised maybe 50-100 queens last year but after about the first 15 I realized I wasn't going to have enough equipment and bee's... I built more equipment and now have 13 hives to shake from and split and I would like to get about 50 more hives plus 20-30 nuc's before winter gets here....like said above it is easier than you think to raise queens but takes some time, equipment and bee's.........

[beewhisper]

Stingtarget!
Their are several Queen breeders in your area.There was also a huge bee school at Asheville.There was at least four queen breeders there.Anyway if you want a local queen,or a breeder queen.You should contact the Buncomb county chapter of beekeepers.The largest chapter in the state.Good luck!