Swarming/Supersedure and space

[AliciaH]

One of the new beekeepers I'm helping this year just had her hive swarm.  She has a deep, mostly brood mixed with stores (frames 1 and 10 are undrawn foundation) and a western that is 80% full of nectar honey (the other 20% undrawn foundation).

We had tried earlier in the season to get them to expand by placing an additional western between the deep and the honey, but they never drew wax, so the plan is to remove it.

So, since I'm pretty sure it's a congestion issue, here is my question:  Since a new queen is out mating and won't be laying eggs for another 10 days or so, will enough brood hatch out to give her enough room to lay?  Or do we need to extract honey from some of the western frames (maybe 4?) to give her additional space.

My concern is that if we take the honey, they won't have enough for winter.  It's just a single deep and one western configuration, and not completely filled out at that.  But we don't want them to do this again in another few weeks.

Additional question:  If syrup were to be fed, might they draw out the middle frame if we leave it?  Or because bees are so smart, they'll know we're trying to trick them and remain unfooled?

Thanks, folks!

[FRAMEshift]

I don't know what a "western" is, so maybe what I'm going to say does not make sense.  I assume the frames are not interchangeable with a deep? 

It's hard to get bees to draw wax this time of year.  I think they are more stimulated by nectar or syrup coming in the door than by internal feeding.  If you are limited to the frames you have and they are not interchangeable, I would suggest that you at least move frames 1 and 10 (the undrawn foundation) into the middle of the broodnest,  with at least one drawn frame between them..  Anything you can do to relieve their sense of crowding will reduce the chance of swarming.

[iddee]

A western is a medium, 6 5/8 in. super.

I would move the numbers 1 and 10 in each box to 3 and 8 positions rather than the middle of the brood nest. Then feed, but NOT with an entrance feeder.

[AliciaH]

No, never a front feeder!  There is another hive just across the field from this gal and I'd hate to start a robbing frenzy!  Earlier in the year she used a frame feeder with much success (it's a deep), but now that she's got westerns (mediums) on, I'll recommend she get one that size.

So, to be clear, make sure the deep frames 1&10 are moved in a bit, then try feeding.  But if they don't draw comb in that middle box, then won't we just be making the congestion worse?  No eggs for the next 10 days or so.  If they don't build, won't they just backfill?

I guess my first question was whether or not we should remove the empty medium and either a) extract a few frames from the honey super (increasing the laying space but risking a reduced feed store for winter), or b) don't extract any frames from the honey super and assume that with the break in egg laying and fall setting in that one deep will be enough room.

Sorry if I sound confusing!

[FRAMEshift]

When I said "coming in the door" I didn't mean an entrance feeder.   :-D  I was thinking of open feeding at least 100 yds from the hive.  That is a better simulation of flow than an internal feeder.   More likely to stimulate comb drawing.

Short bursts of feeding, a few days max,  will be less likely to result in serious backfilling.  If you extract and give them lots of room to store syrup, they have less reason to draw new comb.  And just because you open space in the upper box does not mean the queen will lay there.  That's why opening the brood nest is more important as far as stopping a swarm.

[AliciaH]

FRAMEshift:  Sorry for the mix up -- my response to an entrance feeder was in agreement with iddee!  I did understand that bees seem to respond to a natural flow rather than a forced feeding for wax building, so thank you!

I will run your suggestion to open feed in short bursts by my apprentice tomorrow and see how comfortable she is with all this.  I will also double check with her what position her new foundation is in the deep.

Thanks to both you and Iddee for the input!  It's hard for me sometimes to translate what I know to do in my apiary with its multiple hives and exchangeable resources, to hers which has just a single hive.  I appreciate the input and the help!

[T Beek]

Don't know how much time you have before first frosts but I've been OPEN feeding for about two weeks already.  I've got 2-3 weeks before first frost up here.

Bees need to feel like they're bringing it home for their own reasons (seems like feeding inside during Fall doesn't work as well as it does in Spring).  I agree w/ iddee and FRAMEshift.  OPEN feed 2 to 1 syrup placed about 100 yards from yard (I'll be giving them pollen as well very soon after frost).  My three remaining colonies are sucking down 2-4 gallons a day, of course the yellowjackets are getting their share as well, hence the reason for keeping the bucket far from yard.  By the end of September my bees will have either filled every open frame or I will have removed it.

thomas

[gailmo]

How long should the "open feeding" continue? 

[FRAMEshift]

of course the yellowjackets are getting their share as well, hence the reason for keeping the bucket far from yard. 
thomas

That's very true.  There is also a difference in the bee dances based on distance.  Out to about 75 yds, the bees are doing the "round dance" which I think includes the area around the hive.  Once they switch to the "wagggle dance" they are giving a clear direction and distance and that gets the foragers away from the beeyard and they are thus less likely to start general robbing.

[T Beek]

I'll open feed until nights consistently begin going into the 30's.

thomas

[caticind]

How long should the "open feeding" continue? 

That depends on whether you extract.  In MO, I'm thinking you'll want that Western to be full of stores for wintering.  So you could leave it on, or extract and feed to refill it.

All the advice above is based on your attempt to get wax drawn in the second Western.  Is that the best idea for the rest of the year?  By the time her new queen is laying, all of the currently capped brood will have hatched out.  She will have all of the brood space in the deep to lay in.  

I guess the important factor is whether or not you have a very strong fall flow there?  If so, that flow might induce building new wax and filling another Western with honey.  If not, but you manage to coax them to build out a Western of comb with feeding, what are you going to do with that mostly empty super when winter comes?  You'll probably have to take it off, as you won't build up enough bees between now and the end of October to occupy and heat it.

If you are expecting a lot of goldenrod and aster, by all means try to get the wax drawing started now with some open feeding.  But if fall flow is thin in your area, you may want to focus on letting the hive find its winter configuration, drawing just the remaining undrawn frames, and remove the extra super.

[T Beek]

Well put caticind;  coordinating open feeding with the last flow is ideal.  For myself and my bees I stop taking any honey in late August (or once I start feeding).

thomas

[AliciaH]

catacind, you have stated the majority of my concerns for her hive much more concisely than I have!  We get a bit of fall flow, and if the hive were stronger, and if they had drawn comb, they would be fine.  But this hive doesn't have either, so it's the big dilemma of how to proceed.

I've given her the open feeding option, and I'll present her with the balance of your viewpoints.  If we could get the middle western (medium) filled out, we can still pull it later if there aren't enough bees to keep the entire space warm.  She could then rotate frames, as needed.  We could call that Plan A.

As stated before, I hate to have her extract from the few frames she has and starve the bees if they don't use the space.  I think as a possible back up, I could provide a few frames of drawn comb so she doesn't have to risk that.  So if the bees don't draw the middle western, she could pull the box entirely.  From the existing western, she could pull and store four honey frames, using my drawn ones as replacement, to provide additional storage and/or brood area.  That could be Plan B.

And, I'll be sure to stress the 75-100 yard distance!

Hope I explained all that clearly.

Thanks, again, for everyone's input!
Alicia H.

[Finski]

.

LETS START FROM BEGINNING

- The hive is weak. It occupyes only one box. Honey and brood were mixed.

- Why hive is so weak? some troubles with kaying abilities and now they take a daughter from that?

- now there is no laying

Problems is not that it does not draw foundations. It seems that hive is week. If the hive want to swarm, it does not make ned combs.
Where is a swarm now? Did it escaped? Is the hive even weaker.

My consern is that the colony gets now enough brood to over winter.
If you feed now, it stucks brood area. Open feeding is nonsence.

It is better to arrange a good laying area and then feed sugar as much it has occupyed frames. Other frames off then.

I do not know when autumn arrives ib Washington state.

[BjornBee]

Open feeding is not nonsense in my opinion.

Open feeding stimulates the queen to lay brood by simulating a flow. In many areas, bees shut down through July and August due to the dearth. And waiting until the fall flow (if you even have one) is a bad idea as you miss most of the brood period to allow the bees to lay enough brood for young bees going into winter. I look at the fall brood cycle as August 15 to October 15.

Open feeding also limits the amount of syrup they can take by only allowing the bees to forage during the day and with their foragers. They can only collect what they can process. This is not a bad thing as you want syrup to be processed and capped.

Internal feeding allows the bees to collect 24 hours a day and they many times will empty a gallon or more a day if available, thus filling the brood chamber very quickly and limiting the area the queen can lay.

Concentrate on brood production. You can always add feed later if needed. But you can't squat and lay eggs for them. Right now, it's all about brood. The brood now will be the bees that will carry the hive through winter.

For the record....if you have a weak hive now, this limits the amount of brood they will raise. A weak hive now, means a weak hive going into winter. Either combine, or boost this hive with a couple frames from another hive. Weak hives should of been dealt with prior to now.

[T Beek]

BjornBee;  Now that's one of the most insightful descriptions for open feeding I've seen.  Should be required reading for all beeks w/ harsh winters.

I'm serious. 

Thanks, I knew you could do it  ;)

thomas

[stella]

I have learned a LOT from reading this thread.
This newbee thanks you all for breaking it down and sharing!

[FRAMEshift]

BjornBee;  Now that's one of the most insightful descriptions for open feeding I've seen.  Should be required reading for all beeks w/ harsh winters.
thomas

I agree.  And not just harsh winters.  Bjorn's  advice is good for anyone with a dearth followed by freezing weather.

[AliciaH]

Wow!  I love you guys!  The way you all break things down helps me in my own head!  I learn so much here and feel like I can verbalize it back!  Thanks!

Finski:  You ask good questions.  I had been avoided a long explanation for fear of boring everyone!  So, without getting into the specifics of why, this gal's hive is not as strong as it could and that's just the way it is right now.  But she's learning why regular hive inspections are necessary, and learning details like what the brood pattern should consist of, not just the fact that there is brood.  It's a steep learning curve and she is trying very hard.

At the moment, there are no eggs because the queen has swarmed and the newly hatched queen has not begun laying yet.  Since the swarming seems to be due to congestion in the deep, the lack of egg laying should help to open things up a bit.  You are right, though, the colony is currently small.  I, too, worry about it's ability to overwinter.

Bjorn:  Thank you for the additional explanation of open feeding vs. internal feeding.  It clarifies things for me and I will be able to use that logic here at home, too.  I will pass along your words.  She has made the decision to pull the empty western.  If she decides to open feed, as well, then hopefully as the new queen starts laying, they will begin to build wax on the deep frames they have left to fill. 

This is her only hive so there are no resources to pull from.  If the new queen manages to fill the deep with new brood, though, I have offered her some drawn comb (western) so she can swap them for honey-filled ones (That was the backup plan I mentioned earlier).  She can feed those frames back, as needed.  At least the hive was good at storing pollen, that's a plus!