Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => EQUIPMENT USAGE, EXPERIMENTATION, HIVE PLANS, CONSTRUCTION TIPS AND TOOLS => Topic started by: VolunteerK9 on October 13, 2009, 11:31:03 pm

Title: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on October 13, 2009, 11:31:03 pm
After ruining two pieces of cypress with my rather dull Craftsman wobble dado blade, I decided that before I threw something at the wall, that it was time to just come back to the house.  Besides needing a good sharpening, the thing is aggravating to get set for precise measurements and after use tends to loosen up (and I am tightening the stew out of it).  I pretty much have my mind made up that I want to buy a stacked dado blade set, but I would like to hear the pros and cons of each or even brands that some of you guys prefer.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 13, 2009, 11:45:07 pm
About the only down side to a stacked dado is the expense.  Everything else about them is better than a wobble.  That said you can get perfectly usable results from a wobble dado.  As long as you aren't building pianos.

Either one is 10 times more useful if you have a second table saw that you can leave it set up in.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: nella on October 14, 2009, 02:58:49 am
I have read that the corners of the wobble dado are rounded instead of square.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: contactme_11 on October 14, 2009, 08:42:55 am
Buy the stacked dado, you won't regret it. They are SO much easier to set accurately. I've seen decent ones as low as $50 at lowes or home depot.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 14, 2009, 08:50:14 am
I have read that the corners of the wobble dado are rounded instead of square.

The bottom of the cut is slightly rounded.  That usually isn't really a big issue no matter what you are doing.  The cut is generally a little bit rougher than one from a stacked dado set - if you are building woodenware for bee keeping it isn't rough enough to be a problem.  

A wobble dado will do the job cost effectively for most occasional wood workers.  If you are building high end furniture or just want that warm feeling that you get from using a fine quality (expensive) tool then you should go for the best you can afford.  Of if it's going to get lots of use.  

They are both potentially dangerous, but a table saw is anyway.  Any dado blade can really kick back if it's misused.  I mentioned that it's a lot better if you can have a dedicated saw for your dado - that is partly because you can keep it set up with a feather board which makes it a lot safer.  In my cabinet shop days all of our work was designed to use a dado that was 1/2" wide and 1/4" deep and the saw was locked down to that setup. Then we used auxillary fences (made out of hardwood) to space the cut from the edge of the piece.  This arrangement made it very safe, accurate, and repeatable.  Otherwise, every time you change setups you have to mess with it and run test cuts - burning lots of time and wasting material.  
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: danno on October 14, 2009, 10:16:58 am
The wobble blades cause so much vibration on the saw.  I would think these would play hell on bearing.   I have two types.  A stacked for box joints and a double bladed cam operated set that ajust from 1/4 to 7/8 for everything else.  neither make the table saw jump around the shop. 
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: contactme_11 on October 14, 2009, 10:21:53 am
The bottom of the cut is slightly rounded.  That usually isn't really a big issue no matter what you are doing.  The cut is generally a little bit rougher than one from a stacked dado set - if you are building woodenware for bee keeping it isn't rough enough to be a problem.  
a wobble dado will do the job cost effectively for most occasional wood workers.  If you are building high end furniture or just want that warm feeling that you get from using a fine quality (expensive) tool then you should go for the best you can afford.  Of if it's going to get lots of use.  They are both potentially dangerous, but a table saw is anyway.  Any dado blade can really kick back if it's misused.  I mentioned that it's a lot better if you can have a dedicated saw for your dado - that is partly because you can keep it set up with a feather board which makes it a lot safer.  In my cabinet shop days all of our work was designed to use a dado that was 1/2" wide and 1/4" deep and the saw was locked down to that setup. Then we used auxillary fences (made out of hardwood) to space the cut from the edge of the piece.  This arrangement made it very safe, accurate, and repeatable.  Otherwise, every time you change setups you have to mess with it and run test cuts - burning lots of time and wasting material.  
All extremely true statements. I have a saw that I just use for dados. One thing I might add is that when using a dado on any table saw you need to take note of the plate the blade runs through. It's often not factory wide enough for much more than a 1/4" blade and if it's a metal plate then you MUST modify it it or buy one with a wider opening. Using a saw without this shield is extremely dangerous.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 14, 2009, 10:29:53 am
...One thing I might add is that when using a dado on any table saw you need to take note of the plate the blade runs through. It's often not factory wide enough for much more than a 1/4" blade and if it's a metal plate then you MUST modify it it or buy one with a wider opening. Using a saw without this shield is extremely dangerous.

For sure.  The best thing is to make a zero clearance plate out of wood.  That goes for any table saw setup though.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Yappy on October 14, 2009, 07:33:34 pm
I agree with all the above comments.  ;)
Another way to make cut, at less cost and faster set up is to use a router.
I also had a Craftsman wobble dado blade, same problems.  :'(
Bought a 1/2 shaft set of carbide router bits for less than a good stacked dado.
Set includes 50 bits, including two dovetail to make great corner joints too.  8-)
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: hardwood on October 14, 2009, 08:13:29 pm
I have a full wood shop and have always made my boxes with half-blind dovetails simply because I'm already set up to do so. I have several commercial beekeeper friends though that just asked me to cut 1000 deeps for them (they're to assemble), so I'll be using finger joints. I made a sled jig that allows me to cut 4 boxes (16 sides) at a time and can produce several hundred in a few hours.
 I'll only use stacked dado cutters...those wobble things are just another way to be injured as far as I'm concerned! Had a Sears model fly apart on me one time back in the 80's...won't use them again. Besides, not only is the shoulder cut not flat, but on wider cuts the cheek cuts aren't parallel.

Freud sells a usable set for less than $100.

Good luck with it,
Scott

Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: wetland bee on October 14, 2009, 09:04:21 pm
Like to hear more about the half blind dove tail and sled to do several boxes at one time.Sounds impressive.I also use wobble dado and hate it.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 14, 2009, 09:21:42 pm
Like to hear more about the half blind dove tail and sled to do several boxes at one time.Sounds impressive.I also use wobble dado and hate it.

With the half blind router cut dovetails you can only work on one box at a time.  You can use a crosscut sled to cut several finger joints at once.  

Here is an article on several shop made jigs that shows what a crosscut sled (http://zenfixit.com/?p=221) is and how to build one.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Robo on October 14, 2009, 10:05:13 pm
Like to hear more about the half blind dove tail

I use the half-blind dovetails.  You can cut both boards of a corner with one pass of the router.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,1525.msg35529.html#msg35529

(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/820-1/IMG_2318.jpg)
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: hardwood on October 14, 2009, 10:13:20 pm
I do the same as Robo for my personal stuff and can make a dovetailed box in 10 minuets or so. My dovetail jig is from porter cable and is around $100 if memory serves. I'll try to get some pics of my cross-cut sled for finger joints this weekend if I can (but it IS Biketoberfest here right now  :-D). Once you make one, and if your saw table is large enough for a big one, you can really whip out some boxes!

Scott
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on October 14, 2009, 10:54:13 pm
Hey Robo. Are those handles cut out with a table saw as well?
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Robo on October 15, 2009, 07:43:59 am
Hey Robo. Are those handles cut out with a table saw as well?

Why yes they are ;)
http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/building-honey-supers/


Scott,  Looking forward so seeing pictures of your sled....
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: TwT on October 15, 2009, 08:03:51 am
I dont use a dado blade, I just rip mine on edge then cut out, I only use a table saw doing this, I also cut my hand holds out with the table saw.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on October 17, 2009, 11:25:00 am
I bought a Skil brand stacked dado the other night as the funds won't allow me to step up to the Freud just yet. Built 5 mediums and a top cover yesterday :) Even it being a cheaper, entry level blade, the stacked dado is hands down better than a wobble. Thanks for the help.

Hey Robo ---> it seems as the molding cutter that I think it is you use on a table saw has apparently been ruled as illegal, immoral, and fattening as I can't find anyone that sells them anymore. I have found a few on Ebay but naturally they do not have the right cutters with them.
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 17, 2009, 03:52:08 pm
Hey Robo ---> it seems as the molding cutter that I think it is you use on a table saw has apparently been ruled as illegal, immoral, and fattening as I can't find anyone that sells them anymore. I have found a few on Ebay but naturally they do not have the right cutters with them.

You can do hand hold cuts with a router using a a straight cutting bit and a guide bushing. Use a simple plywood template that is tapered.  For a dollar I'll do a pictorial showing how.  ;)
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on October 17, 2009, 07:55:56 pm
I would like to at least see a pic of the template. Does just a pic still cost me a buck?
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: David LaFerney on October 17, 2009, 11:20:07 pm
I would like to at least see a pic of the template. Does just a pic still cost me a buck?

Yeah, but you can just owe it to me.

The template:
(http://doorgarden.com/images/critters/bee-pictures/equipment/handhold-template-1.JPG)

The router setup:
(http://doorgarden.com/images/critters/bee-pictures/equipment/router-setup.JPG)

And the result:
(http://doorgarden.com/images/critters/bee-pictures/equipment/handhold-1.JPG)

The template is made out of 1/4" plywood and the standard length cutter is set as deep as it will go in these pictures.  I now have an extra long cutter so I can make the cut as deep as I want.  It isn't exactly like a factory cut hive body, but it's a reasonable facsimile.  It takes about 30 seconds to clamp the template down and make the cut. 
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Robo on October 18, 2009, 12:02:25 am
I also have a router version with directions on my website courtesy of Jim Hensel

http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/hensel-handle-sloping-pocket-handle-for-hive-boxes/

(http://www.bushkillfarms.com/gallery2/d/2350-2/handle2.jpg)
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on October 18, 2009, 09:45:29 am
I'm really getting into these jigs. Built 7 mediums yesterday :)
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: hardwood on October 29, 2009, 03:46:20 pm
Robo, if this works and I can share the pics here they are (fingers crossed) http://s871.photobucket.com/albums/ab277/hardwood01/Finger%20joint%20jig/
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Lone on October 30, 2009, 11:13:37 am
Hello,

Here is a challenge.

Can anyone explain in simple basic language that girlies like me might understand, how can I put in the ledge that the frames sit on?  I'm not sure if you are talking about using the dado blades (which I don't have) for that, but I have no need for fancy joints or those inverted handles that weaklings like me can't get a grip on with full supers.

My woodwork mate has gone home so I tried to use the circular saw out of necessity(for the first time), and made a big mess.  It cut too far in when it somehow leaned over all by itself with me hanging on. (I am sure that picture will provide you with some amusement). Anyway, I can only get 19mm thick board, so the ledges really need an extension so the frames don't drop. Thus I was able to cover over the splintered gullies and rectify the mess with a strip of merbau, but I would like advice on getting it right the first time, please, preferably without a circular saw (until it and I can be proper friends).

Lone
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: contactme_11 on October 30, 2009, 12:25:03 pm
Ok. Let's try. 19mm is about the same thickness as a 3/4" board here in the US. To do what you want without fancy tool you will need a table saw. After you cut or rip your boards to the height you want your boxes, set the fence 15.9mm from the blade and set the blade to 9.5mm high. Run the board through. Set the fence 9.5mm from the blade and raise the blade to 15.9mm high. Turn the board on edge and run it through again (be very careful). This should cut you out a frame rest 3/8"x 5/8", which is what we use here in the US.

Hello,

Here is a challenge.

Can anyone explain in simple basic language that girlies like me might understand, how can I put in the ledge that the frames sit on?  I'm not sure if you are talking about using the dado blades (which I don't have) for that, but I have no need for fancy joints or those inverted handles that weaklings like me can't get a grip on with full supers.

My woodwork mate has gone home so I tried to use the circular saw out of necessity(for the first time), and made a big mess.  It cut too far in when it somehow leaned over all by itself with me hanging on. (I am sure that picture will provide you with some amusement). Anyway, I can only get 19mm thick board, so the ledges really need an extension so the frames don't drop. Thus I was able to cover over the splintered gullies and rectify the mess with a strip of merbau, but I would like advice on getting it right the first time, please, preferably without a circular saw (until it and I can be proper friends).

Lone
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Lone on October 31, 2009, 10:37:25 pm
Thanks, Contactme, that explantion was very clear.  I don't have a table saw so I think next time I will tackle it with chisels, hacksaw, or roc tool (something like a dremel).  Unless by then I am more deft with the circular saw.

The commercial supers I have are slightly thicker, so either I have to make mine a bit shorter or put that extra strip for the frames.  I don't think it matters if they are slightly shorter - they just look nicer together.  And the difference is only a small amount.

Lone
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: contactme_11 on November 01, 2009, 06:45:14 am
If you have a router you could do it with that too.
Thanks, Contactme, that explantion was very clear.  I don't have a table saw so I think next time I will tackle it with chisels, hacksaw, or roc tool (something like a dremel).  Unless by then I am more deft with the circular saw.

The commercial supers I have are slightly thicker, so either I have to make mine a bit shorter or put that extra strip for the frames.  I don't think it matters if they are slightly shorter - they just look nicer together.  And the difference is only a small amount.

Lone
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: wetland bee on January 07, 2010, 08:38:46 pm
This post was a great help. I had two weeks off over Christmas / new years and use it to make a jig to assemble 510 frames. Then built a plex glass sled for my 10 inch table saw. Made it 44"  long 9" wide it can cut the sides and ends to length with 10"inch blade. Then put on  my craftman wobble and cut Finger joint. I love it works great now I need a cheap wood source
Title: Re: Stacked dado or wobble?
Post by: Greg watkevich on January 27, 2010, 08:03:46 pm
If you dont have a decent table saw and an accurate fence you will always be struggling, but the stacked dado is hands down better than a wobble.  I don't use a dado, and found that a router works best for me.  I'm not into production mode but for building a minimal amount of hives, a router does a great job where a table saw and a chop saw doesnt work.
Greg Watkevich