Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BlueBee on November 21, 2012, 05:52:38 pm

Title: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 21, 2012, 05:52:38 pm
I didn’t want to hijack adamants dead out thread, but I was curious about the state of your current foam design.  So I thought I would start a new thread.

Derekm, your hive looks it belongs in my kitchen. :)  Almost looks like stainless steel from a distance, doesn’t it.  It's a nice looking hive indeed; kind of looks like a modern piece of art.  It’s nice to have somebody so focused on the engineering/physics of a hive interacting with us. X:X    

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0216_zps3ebc3b2b.jpg)

What are you facing the inside surface with these days to keep the bees from chewing it?  It looks like your polyurethane sheets are foil faced.  Is that on both sides?  I don’t believe we have that brand here in the Midwest USA.  

Are you still using your baffled vent box on the bottom?  I liked that idea, but it just seemed like too much work for me, so I just went the lazy route and made all air exchanges through the bottom entrance in my latest nuc design.

How about glue?  Are you using polyurethane glue or something else?

That looks like about 50mm thick foam from here?

Nice job!
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: AllenF on November 21, 2012, 07:18:20 pm
You can still see fingerprints on the stainless.  (to quote a mother in my life)   :-D

Cool looking hive.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 21, 2012, 11:25:56 pm
.
It looks fine so long as ants find the hive.

I use to move hives to outer pastures when hives have 4-5 boxes. I make it alone.
Migrative beekeeping is a hart of big yields.

This summer I transported a hive to woods. I looked what heck is happening in the bottom? European's biggest ant species had found the insulated floor.

I took insulations off and there was quite big ant colony. I made a fire in the woods and burned insulations and ant nest.

.



.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 21, 2012, 11:46:31 pm
Good point Finski, that’s why I like listening to your 50 years of experience.  Unfortunately I learned the ant lesson the hard way. :(

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Bee%20Equipement/Antslikefoam.jpg)

We don’t have many options for commercially built Poly hives in the USA, and none that are as insulated as the extruded polystyrene foam board we use in building our houses (yes, it is now the law to insulate new construction in the USA.)  So if you want a super insulated hive here, you pretty much have to build it from scratch.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 22, 2012, 01:33:30 am
.
No one need super insulated  hive.

It is enough that the hive has food from Autumn to early summer.
Good build up is one advantage that the hive become in time to catch yield.

 If you have 20 hives, you must move them from pasture to pasture to get yield.
It saves you not a bit if your super hives stand on backyard and pastures are overgrazed.
It is not only you who keep beehives on area.

To transport hives and boxes  here and there, it is an ergonometric issue.


Of course, derekm's desire to find out  insulation and ventilation issues is splended to UK, but it gives nothing to Finland because those things have revieled out decades ago.

We have one guy who has 3000 hives. He manufactures polyhives and  sell them to several countries.  Another guy manufactures too and he has over 1000 hives.

It is nice to get "challenges" from a guy who has 2 years experience and perhaps extracted honey not at all from his experimental hive.

We have in Finland our own propel heads. Their favorit is  to invent new bottom boards.
I have seen them 50 years as long as I started. Their breakdown innovations have lasted 5 years and after that no one remember them. 

one guy follows nectar flow from computer and goes to exctract honey when computers says NOW!

The worst combination is stupid and busy. They make most harm in the world.

.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 22, 2012, 10:26:52 am
I didn’t want to hijack adamants dead out thread, but I was curious about the state of your current foam design.  So I thought I would start a new thread.

Derekm, your hive looks it belongs in my kitchen. :)  Almost looks like stainless steel from a distance, doesn’t it.  It's a nice looking hive indeed; kind of looks like a modern piece of art.  It’s nice to have somebody so focused on the engineering/physics of a hive interacting with us. X:X    

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0216_zps3ebc3b2b.jpg)

What are you facing the inside surface with these days to keep the bees from chewing it?  It looks like your polyurethane sheets are foil faced.  Is that on both sides?  I don’t believe we have that brand here in the Midwest USA.  

Are you still using your baffled vent box on the bottom?  I liked that idea, but it just seemed like too much work for me, so I just went the lazy route and made all air exchanges through the bottom entrance in my latest nuc design.

How about glue?  Are you using polyurethane glue or something else?

That looks like about 50mm thick foam from here?

Nice job!

Its made out of foil faced Polyisocyanuorate foam.(PIR) obtained from a local builders merchant. I use the aluminium foil tape thats used by builders to seal the foam thermally.
The grill style has been abandoned in favour of a solid floor 4" above the entrance.
While this is substantially warmer than any commercially available poly hive(and tested against a hive made in FINLAND)  and miles warmer than a wooden hive, it only just approaches the warmth of a tree nest.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 22, 2012, 10:28:43 am
.
No one need super insulated  hive.


Tell that to the bees in tree nests...
Finns haven't worked out how warm bees are in trees.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 22, 2012, 11:07:19 am
.
Hei laari laari laa
vaari muorin saa
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa
.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 22, 2012, 01:33:07 pm
Interesting.  I have not seen PIR foam for sale locally.  Dow Chemical company is headquartered in Michigan.  Most foam around here is polystyrene.  We also have foil faced PU foam, but it is less common and the foil is very thin.

So some questions. :)  I’m not trying to be critical of your design with any of these questions, but these are just the typical FMEA type questions I ask myself before I build anything.  Even with all my FMEA thinking, I still get surprised with failures in most things I build.  LOL, such is life!

It looks like you did not apply AL tape over the bottom board edges?   Why is that?  When I’ve left foam exposed to the UV from the Sun, it breaks down.

I like the AL tape idea, we use that over here to seal up heating ducts.  However AL is a very good thermal conductor (think CPU heatsinks!).  How much does it compromise the insulation of the foam when used on mating surfaces?

Do the boxes get too slippery when using the AL tape on the mating surfaces?  Are you getting an optimal seal with no air infiltration losses?  Does the tape hold up to the weather?  Can the rain backtrack under those mating surfaces and get into the hive?  

How do you get a hive tool between boxes to break them apart?  What about handles to lift the boxes?  

What’s the function of the inward slope on your vent box?  Why not just make it vertical?

Again, I’m not being critical of your design, just checking off my FMEA bucket list.  
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 23, 2012, 03:42:08 pm
its 2mm Correx on the mating surfaces  £4 a sheet over here.
To separate just slide the hive tool between and slide it all the way round . No levering needed. The hopper idea is if a mesh floor is needed instead of solid, you dont let turbulence in but let the detritus out. Havent needed separate handles on the brood or supers . The ally floor edge bars function as handles shifting the entire unit.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 23, 2012, 03:49:07 pm
Interesting.  It sounds like your Correx is similar to the stuff we call corroplast over here.  The politician's use massive amounts of it for their election signs.  However I've never seen any as thin as 2mm.  That could be useful. :)  The stuff over here seems to be made of polyethylene and I have yet to find a glue that will bond to it.  What are you using?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 23, 2012, 05:06:04 pm
its  polyproplene. The micro abrasiionsthey do to it to allow paint to stick, gives glues a chance, epoxy or polyurethane glues work.
The 2mm stuff is used over here to protect floors during building work.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 24, 2012, 02:52:52 am
I’m doing some plaster work and bought a roll of stuff to cover the hardwood floors but it cellulose based.  Probably about 2mm thick, but wouldn’t last long in a bee hive!

There’s something I like and something I worry about with your bottom entrance/vent box design.  I like the potential for a deep valley for the dying bees to fall into over winter.  That might prevent them from clogging up the entrance.  However at the same time, if they do clog up the entrance it looks to me like it would be difficult to unclog it without taking the hive apart in the winter. 

I mention this because I have found my smaller bottom entrances often get clogged shut with bees.  I can simply poke a stick strait in to clear the bees away.  It doesn’t look like that would be possible with your entrance.

How about paint?  Are you going to paint this design or leave the metallic like finish?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 24, 2012, 12:07:33 pm
Since this thread is about super insulated hives, I wonder how advocates of insulated hives today (that includes me) would explain Brother Adam’s failures with insulated hives?  He and another bee keeper in the UK ran an experiment on a total of 168 hives around the 1920s that were well insulated.  They were double walled hives with 6 to 8” of insulation between the walls (15cm to 20cm).

Here’s what Brother Adam wrote about the results of this experiment:  “In short this form of wintering (insulation) did not only prove a complete failure, but in actual fact had a detrimental effect on the well-being of the colonies.”  Page 57 of Beekeeping at Buckfast Abbey

Why didn’t insulation work for Brother Adam?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 27, 2012, 08:13:09 am
...
Why didn’t insulation work for Brother Adam?


Questions for Brother Adam :
When did  you put the insulation on? 
its been documented by other researchers (Everret 1915) that adding insulation on late in the season causes problems.  Just like a tree my insulation is permanent.
Insulation effectiveness is all about detail.
How air tight was the insulation?
insulation with poor air seals isnt very good insulation

How good was the insulation? did you measure the conductance?
how tall was the unbroken  cavity distance?
where in the  cavity were the bees confined.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 27, 2012, 08:22:11 am
...I mention this because I have found my smaller bottom entrances often get clogged shut with bees.  I can simply poke a stick strait in to clear the bees away.  It doesn’t look like that would be possible with your entrance.

How about paint?  Are you going to paint this design or leave the metallic like finish?

the PIR base board its on isnt part of the hive ... I now have a sloping piece of plastic mesh under the hive.. the dead bees can roll off.
the hives are left metallic to reduce radiative losses. Remember the effective temp of a clear  cold winter sky is about -60C (for radiative loss calcs)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: little john on November 27, 2012, 09:17:15 am
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

He's also had the outrageous idea of using a drinks packet as a foundation starter strip:
http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/foundationless_frames.php)
Crazy - but the evidence is there that it works ...

LJ
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 11:38:26 am
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)


LJ


That guy know nothing about insulation. He thinks that insulation's duty is to catch water. What happens then? - The house or hive will be conqured by mold.

Good heavens that common sense ............

And you know what happens to wool or clothes when they are wet one week...

.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 11:46:22 am
.

What is the layers of insulated human house wall:

- surface
- inner backround board
- /vapour batrrier
- insulation material
- wind barrier
- wind barrier
- air/ventilation gap
- outer cover against rain


One solution
(http://www.cmhc.ca/en/co/maho/images/AYH-19_Figure-1_E.gif)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 27, 2012, 12:40:18 pm
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

...
His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this

"And one of beekeeping axiom states:"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."

This is a common misconception that leads to allsort of false conclusions.  What can kill bees (or humans for that matter) :
Excessive heat loss (hypothermia)
starvation
dehydration.
That false maxim :"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
can lead one to kill bees  by either hypothermia and/or dehydration.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 12:44:40 pm
.
Stupid beeks kill hives, not cold or moisture.


You can arrange that they do not  kill hives. It is just you who arrange things.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: CapnChkn on November 27, 2012, 12:53:06 pm
Well, the days seem to be getting short...

Hei laari laari laa
vaari muorin saa
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa
=Hello bipolar bipolar quality
grandpa granny gets
resonant sweet Suomenmaa

Use the FARCE Luke...
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 01:00:20 pm
Well, the days seem to be getting short...


]Hei laari laari laa..........................................lal lal lal lal jodling
vaari muorin saa...........................................grandpa gets grandma  
kaikuvi suloinen suomenmaa...........................echo sounds over lovely Finland


Original :

Honkain keskellä mökkini seisoo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nQVpG2vg2Y#ws)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: CapnChkn on November 27, 2012, 01:08:13 pm
Ha Ha Ha!

Direct translation from Google Translate.  This makes better sense.

Seems the days are STILL getting pretty short...
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 01:22:27 pm
Ha Ha Ha!

Direct translation from Google Translate.  This makes better sense.

Seems the days are STILL getting pretty short...

Here is the graph of daylengt in south and in north.
Black vertical line is today.
In Helsinki day lengt is now 6 hours, and in north 3 hours
.
I put snow tires under car today. In December we get penalty if we do not use them.


http://www.helatek.fi/Pituus.aspx (http://www.helatek.fi/Pituus.aspx)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 27, 2012, 02:37:06 pm
It sounds like these beauties in Finland were also well insulated but they failed too.  Why was that?

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-tJf_G6pgJ2U/ToxUJUEm_5I/AAAAAAAAA4I/447q1MNuVa4/s1600/bistade%2Balt.jpg)

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 02:59:13 pm
It sounds like these beauties in Finland were also well insulated but they failed too.  Why was that?



They did not failed! They lived their own life cycle in that time in those materials. After war were had even lack of nails when folks build new houses. Lots of material was recycled. Many built house from old timber material of from used bricks.



Migrative beekeeping is the basic of honey production. You move hives there where is the yield.

It may be that old stuff was abandoned when guys started use cars.

We are able to insulate what ever. That is not basic idea in beekeeping, never been.

Varroa sweeped away toykeepers and Lanstroth arrived instead. Many made their own insulated Langstroths.
We got too splended queens at that time and they cannot live in those old small cottages.

Typical insulated langstroth box is douple ply wall  (boat ply) and for ecample glass wool or stone wool inside,( but never sheep wool!)



 Here is typical self made or byed plyhive with insulations.

(http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/lahti/article5579910.ece/ALTERNATES/w580/mehil%C3%A4istarha+Tom+Vilja)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 03:14:51 pm
.
Here are self made  insulated hives .

Actually it is forbidden to produce "ecological honey" in plastic hives, even if honey is sold in plastic tubes.

Wooden insulated hives. If you try to bye them, they are 3 times so expencive as polybox.
They are so called hand work and cannot compete with plastic machines.

But if you do not count your hours, you may do them. But ply is expencive too.

Look, the guy uses only medium boxes

This is start of summer. Hives are small and dandelion is in bloom.

(http://img.yle.fi/uutiset/tampere/article6146511.ece/ALTERNATES/w580/mehil%C3%A4iset+mehil%C3%A4ispes%C3%A4+mehil%C3%A4ishoitaja+Sastamala.jpg)




Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 27, 2012, 03:19:05 pm
OK, yes I see how those nice looking Long Hives would not be good for migratory bee keeping.  Good point.

That is funny, you can’t produce “ecological honey” in plastic boxes but you can sell it in plastic jars!  You know, Finland sounds a lot like the USA.  We’ve got some strange laws here too.

I’m going to stick with the poly boxes.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 27, 2012, 03:21:03 pm
Questions for Brother Adam :
When did  you put the insulation on? 
Insulation effectiveness is all about detail.
How air tight was the insulation?

Brother Adam didn’t provide a photo of his insulation setup, but he describes putting 4 of his hives back to back and building a bigger box around the group and then packing the space between the inner hives and outer box with 6” to 8” of packing materials.  The whole thing formed a big ‘cubical block’ as he put it.  He got the idea from some American beeks.  Based on his description, I would guess he didn’t move the hives into this wintering box until sometime in the fall.

Since Brother Adam used bottom entrances, it sounds like his insulation experiment may have been very similar to yours from a thermal perspective.  Namely he would have been creating your “heat bubble” for his bees by just sticking with a bottom entrance.  You’ve obviously got more modern materials in your design, but his 6” to 8” (15cm to 20cm) of packing in a double walled setup should have had minimum air infiltration losses unless he was a very sloppy builder.  I don’t think he was sloppy.

I still think there is some critical variable that resulted in his failure vs your success.

Brother Adam says this on page 56: “We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health.  Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on bees”.  :?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 27, 2012, 03:23:46 pm
Look, the guy uses only medium boxes
Finski , I seem to recall you talking about switching over to all mediums too?  Are you going to do that?  Do they make your poly hives in medium size?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 27, 2012, 03:28:49 pm


Brother Adam didn't provide a photo of his insulation setup,

Brother Adam says this on page 56: We know that cold, even severe cold, does not harm colonies that are in good health.  Indeed, cold seems to have a decided beneficial effect on Bee's.  :?


Yes but, don't you understand that Brother Adam knew nothing about cold. It is sure that he did not need snow shovel there. He stay in his cabin one day and snow melted away.

 He started his beekeeping 100 years ago. Can't you forget that guy-


Three the most vain thing in the world

1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation

The Engish are accustomed to cold because they have not insulated their houses. Yes, I have been there.
I have asked them to put second hand woolen shirts on beehives.





.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2012, 12:59:16 am
Hmmmm….

1.  Wasn’t Brother Adam actually German?

2.  He had 75 YEARS of bee keeping EXPERIENCE.  Aren’t we supposed to learn from the more experienced bee keepers?  :? 

3.  "He was unsurpassed as a breeder of bees. He talked to them, he stroked them. He brought to the hives a calmness that, according to those who saw him at work, the sensitive bees responded to."  The Economist, Sept. 14th 1996 (source Wikipedia)

Finski did you visit Brother Adam in the UK?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 28, 2012, 01:07:42 am
.
No. I have better to do in my life
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 28, 2012, 01:11:32 am
So Finski, what did you do in England   :)

Derekm, I have another concern with your bottom vent box and I’m wondering if you have seen this problem yet?  The bees will chase wax moth larvae from their brood box into that vent box.  If there is wax debris in that box, the wax moths can usually live there unmolested by the bees.  That isn’t a big problem if you have plenty of bees to keep them in check, but I have a feeling they might still make a mess of your foil facing as they pupate?  Thoughts?  
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: little john on November 28, 2012, 08:05:50 am
Every now and then I come across a site which I think is worth bookmarking - here's one I came across recently which you may find relevant to the current project: http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/THSC_Unit.php)

What I like about this particular site is that the guy doesn't just theorise - but he goes to the trouble of running trials, and then publishing the data.

...
His work while good intentioned has a number of flaws as it seems to assume this

"And one of beekeeping axiom states:"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."

This is a common misconception that leads to allsort of false conclusions.  What can kill bees (or humans for that matter) :
Excessive heat loss (hypothermia)
starvation
dehydration.
That false maxim :"Cold does not kill bees, but wetness does."
can lead one to kill bees  by either hypothermia and/or dehydration.


It occurs to me that as the upper entrance vs. lower entrance debate is never-ending (I, like many Europeans happen to favour lower, seems that many Americans favour upper) - and so the most non-anthropomorphic approach would be to make entrances (say, single 20mm holes - just for the winter) at Top, Bottom and Middle positions, then block them off with cow dung, cardboard or similar chewable material, leaving (say) a 3mm hole to give the girls a clue. In that way, the bees will themselves open or close the entrance holes, as is seen with the old technique of skep beekeeping, to regulate their own hive conditions as they see fit.

If you look at: http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php) you'll see that question 7 is an example of where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 28, 2012, 09:02:55 am

where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ


 the beekeeper does not know what to do.... WOW And beeks in America make controversy than in  Europe. And the British arrange concensus poll, because they are not American neither European. They want their own creative alternative.

Their favorit "listen to bees" . It is is just disturbing winter sleep.  heheh

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 29, 2012, 06:52:23 am
So Finski, what did you do in England   :)

Derekm, I have another concern with your bottom vent box and I’m wondering if you have seen this problem yet?  The bees will chase wax moth larvae from their brood box into that vent box.  If there is wax debris in that box, the wax moths can usually live there unmolested by the bees.  That isn’t a big problem if you have plenty of bees to keep them in check, but I have a feeling they might still make a mess of your foil facing as they pupate?  Thoughts?  

how much wax debris will accumulate on a 45 degree slope?(one of the reasons its that shape)  Thats being kept clean by by bees that are kept warm? The bees can keep the entire hive warm(16C and above) and I have observed them doing so on a similar hive with outside temp at -15C .
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 29, 2012, 07:01:09 am


It occurs to me that as the upper entrance vs. lower entrance debate is never-ending (I, like many Europeans happen to favour lower, seems that many Americans favour upper) - and so the most non-anthropomorphic approach would be to make entrances (say, single 20mm holes - just for the winter) at Top, Bottom and Middle positions, then block them off with cow dung, cardboard or similar chewable material, leaving (say) a 3mm hole to give the girls a clue. In that way, the bees will themselves open or close the entrance holes, as is seen with the old technique of skep beekeeping, to regulate their own hive conditions as they see fit.

If you look at: http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php (http://www.beebehavior.com/beekeeping_questions.php) you'll see that question 7 is an example of where the bees were allowed to decide for themselves where the best place was for entrance & ventilation.

LJ

The top entrance bottom entrance debate is resolved every time a swarm decides on a nest site
I suggest you read the Honeybee democracy by T Seely.

The bees prefer bottom entrances... and they like to seal their nests. These facts are tested by peer reviewed experiments
The bees instinctively know the Physics of heat ...
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: RHBee on November 29, 2012, 07:13:21 am
Where I live would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold. Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.

[quote author=Finski link=topic=39518.msg333648#msg333648 date=13540

Three the most vain thing in the world

1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation

[/quote]


I don't care who you are that is just funny. Finski you got a way with words, don't hold back tell us how you feel.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 08:08:50 am
k tell us how you feel.

Like nun's niples. Tickling.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 29, 2012, 09:03:25 am
Where I live would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold. Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.

[quote author=Finski link=topic=39518.msg333648#msg333648 date=13540

Three the most vain thing in the world

1) Popes balls
2) Nun's nipples
3) English knowledge about insulation



I don't care who you are that is just funny. Finski you got a way with words, don't hold back tell us how you feel.
[/quote]if you have aircon  you insulate against the heat. bees have aircon
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 09:45:10 am
]if you have aircon  you insulate against the heat. bees have aircon

Bees handle aircon with water. Not with insulation.

If you compare 5 members of Apis family, only mellifera have invented how to protect against cold with cavity.

wasp make a multilayer paper ball which keep the heat.

Bumblebee likes to make hive into mouse hive.


Yes, mellifera have invented how to live in cold climates. It is honey stores andf protective cavity.

If we compare Apis bees in Africa, they like top change the landscape if it is short of food or some one disturb s the hive.

Asian Apis bees make migrations and they make a big one comb in open air.

It was researched on Apis cerana japonica which live in towns. Only 10% of hives were in cavities. Others were in open air and they kept summer temperature in clusters during winter.

Mellifera is not able to live in hottest climates like in tropical zone. That is why scutellata was exported to South America. Mellifera was not able to live in jungle but scutellata exploded there.







Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 10:38:28 am
Derekm, how do you feed the bees in this hive?  Do you use frame feeders, top feeders, open feeding, or what?
 
Where I live (South Carolina) would there be any good reason to insulate? I believe I will have more issues with heat than cold.  Very mild winters, very hot and humid summers. Just asking.
If I still lived in the south, I kind of doubt I would be using insulated hives.  It just doesn’t get that cold down there to warrant extra time, cost, and physical limits of foam IMO. 

I didn’t get around to opening up the vents on my hives this summer (record heat up here) and the bees did just fine.  I also had bees in wood hives this summer and they did fine.   It’s the winter up here which usually makes or breaks the bees.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 10:50:40 am
Yes the bees can use evaporative cooling in an attempt to cool a cavity, but the problem is evaporative cooling is ineffective in climates with high humidity; like tropical jungles or the South East USA.  Even people avoided Florida until condensing forms of air conditioning were invented. 

It seems to me that evaporative cooling would be hampered by only having a bottom entrance.   If you can’t exhaust the high humidity air from inside the hive (via a top entrance), the effectiveness of additional evaporative cooling surely has to be compromised. 
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 10:59:54 am
.
Regulation of beehive temperature has been researched very well. You need not invent own explanations.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/114/1/1.full.pdf (http://jeb.biologists.org/content/114/1/1.full.pdf)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 11:28:53 am
But I like inventing  :)…..and your article spoke nothing about evaporative cooling inside an insulated hive in a warm HUMID climate with only a bottom entrance.  I was responding to the poster from South Carolina whom was wondering if it was worth insulating his hives in his hot humid climate.  How do you cool down an insulated box in a hot humid climate with evaportive cooling when you only have a bottom entrance?    

The paper was about energy balances of bees in flight in the Sonoran Desert in Arizona.  They have DRY heat there; it is a desert!

I did enjoy reading that paper though.  Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 11:32:05 am
.

When you look your hives cooling, you see the result  from number of ventilating bees and beariong, what is going on. Let the Arizona guys take care themselves.

The ventilation of hives is not a secret.


 
.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 11:35:00 am
Now don't get Grumpy on me Finski, I did enjoy reading your paper.  Thanks for the link.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 11:45:51 am
.
When you look your hives cooling, you see the result  from number of ventilating bees and bearing, what is going on. Let the Arizona guys take care themselves.

The ventilation of hives is not a big secret. A beekeeper must find a proper style for his bees to keep. A huge flow is difficult to handle if a hive brings 10-20  kg nectar into hive every day.

When bees do not manage in regulation, they stop working. If it continues, they swarm and move away.


When the yard is very near a good canola field, bear formulation is usual. But if the distance is over 1 km, bear formulation do not exist.

If the weather is hot, it is dry and nectar evapotares easily. It keeps the hiver cool.

A humid weather?
We had  that 2 summer ago. Day was 30C and night 20C.
 Bees did not start to forage canola before midday. Nectar had so high water content. When I came to yard 16
 a'clock, bees flew like mad. 30 hectares canola and 7 hives. In the evening bees were around hive walls.

when weather is humid for example because there are little rains, nectar has so high water content that beeds do not gather much surplus honey.



Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 29, 2012, 12:24:11 pm
]if you have aircon  you insulate against the heat. bees have aircon

Bees handle aircon with water. Not with insulation.

...


but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 29, 2012, 01:33:19 pm

but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.

If you aicon your car windows open, how well it works?

Have you tried with hand, how hot is the hive wall when sun shines onto it. That is why hives use to be white.

Even  20 mm polystyrene board transfers heat to the brood room, if the hive has dark color.
I have seen when the mating nuc started to abscond from 3 frame nuc.

Not so difficult to notice. Bees react with adding ventilation and with clustering. Look from that.

If you do not see ventilatiing bees in fine warm summerday, you hive is too cold.

That seems to bee biggest problem when beginners try to build up their small colonies. Too much room, mesh floor  3 frames bees...

I have never seen advices that join small swarms. Instead of  that guys say split it. Guys believe too that mini nucs are good to start build up of colony.

.

.

.

.

.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 06:47:08 pm
but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.
Agreed, but once the humidity inside the hive hits 100% relative humidity, any additional evaporative cooling isn’t going to work.  With only a bottom entrance, what prevents the humidity from rising to 100%?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 06:51:26 pm
Have you tried with hand, how hot is the hive wall when sun shines onto it. That is why hives use to be white.

Even  20 mm polystyrene board transfers heat to the brood room, if the hive has dark color.

Very little heat or cold passes through my 38mm of polystyrene in full Sun or full Moon.  :)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on November 29, 2012, 06:52:47 pm
It was 44F/7C and Sunny here today.  The bees with top entrances are out on cleansing flights by noon.  My insulated hives with ONLY a bottom entrance are consistently much slower at responding to opportunities for cleansing flights.  Is that a concern to anybody?  If those bottom entrance hives don’t get to go poo, is anybody concerned about nosema?

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/topvsbottomNov29.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on November 30, 2012, 03:06:24 am
.
At weekend our temps go into -15C.

Normally this is time when snow will stay on grouind.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on November 30, 2012, 05:46:00 pm
but the aircon (driven by water evaporation) is more effective if the cavity is insulated as it restricts the flow of heat from outside to in.
Agreed, but once the humidity inside the hive hits 100% relative humidity, any additional evaporative cooling isn’t going to work.  With only a bottom entrance, what prevents the humidity from rising to 100%?
bees  they move the air... theres a few papers on the net about
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 03, 2012, 01:44:13 pm
It was 44F/7C and Sunny here today.  The bees with top entrances are out on cleansing flights by noon.  My insulated hives with ONLY a bottom entrance are consistently much slower at responding to opportunities for cleansing flights.  Is that a concern to anybody?  If those bottom entrance hives don’t get to go poo, is anybody concerned about nosema?

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/topvsbottomNov29.jpg)


I've noticed the same, my top entrances are usually busier.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 03, 2012, 05:58:45 pm
.
Top entrance is usefull to bees in early spring and in cleansing flight.
When a bee leave the hive and weather is cold, it returns and achieves  warm cluster quickly.

Via lower entrance the way to cluster may be quite long and cold.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 03, 2012, 07:02:53 pm
The bees did eventually come out of that hive on the left side of the photo.  It just took them a few more hours.  That has usually worked out OK for me, but you have to wonder if the early risers might attempt to rob the late risers this time of year (when we have a warm spell).

The bees in that nuc are completely in the bottom box and the top box is completely packed with stores.  That would be text book how to winter bees in a wood hive/nuc.  Lots of food for the bees to 'rise up through' during the winter. 

However I suspect the dynamics in foam hives is quite different and that the ideal setup is not the same as in wood.  I base this on my observations to date as well as physics theory.  When I pull the top off that double decker the top comb is COLD.  When I pull the top off a single decker, the comb is toasty warm.  As others here have said, it appears that the foam hives can act more like an ice cooler than a heater if you have too much volume in them.  This is where I suspect Brother Adam failed in his experiments with insulation.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 05:59:33 am
r.  

However I suspect the dynamics in foam hives is quite different and that the ideal setup is not the same as in wood.  I base this on my observations to date as well as physics theory.

I do not understand anything. What beekeeping has to do with physics. Guys with quite low intelligence can nurse bees

Quote
.  As others here have said, it appears that the foam hives can act more like an ice cooler than a heater .

Good heavens what rubbish. Bees themselves generate the herat into the hive 36C. It they do not, they are dead.
When have you met a freezener which has 36C heater and which uses sugar as


In winter I have measured that the hive generates 42C temp into the hive when it is disturbed.

Many guys say that tar paper heats the hive because it catch sun light. Good heavens. We have now a period where sun will heat tarpare in 10.3 Match.  
Our sun heats nothing from Ochtober to Marsh. Neither it heat at night and in cloudy days. Sun is away just then when it is needed. CRY!



Quote

 This is where I suspect Brother Adam failed in his experiments with insulation.


Good heavens.

It seems that in America there lives many Brother Adams which's immortal ideas will be burden on the beekeeping from generation to  generation

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 04, 2012, 08:30:14 am
Finski, aren’t you the one always telling us not to keep bees in 3 deeps!  Aren’t you the one telling us the bees can’t keep such a big box warm?  My observation is: too few bees in too big of a box will be cold, even with insulation.  Insulation will probably make that situation even worse since there would be no chance of a solar gains from the Sun.

Imagine this, you’re cold and you walk into a super insulated house that has no furnace….so it is cold.  Your body is generating about 100 watts of heat, is that enough to warm up an entire house and make YOU feel comfortable?  The answer is NO.  The volume is too big.  Now imagine instead some nice beek from the UK gives you a super insulated winter coat to wear.  Is your body heat going to warm that up?  You bet you!  You'll be as happy and warm as a bug in the rug. 

Good Heavens, aren’t the bees in Finland versed in Physics? :) 
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 04, 2012, 08:47:22 am

I do not understand anything. What beekeeping has to do with physics. Guys with quite low intelligence can nurse bees



The level of intelligence of the operator has nothing to do with the relevence of the science to the subject.

Thats like saying if you are deaf, then sound does not exist, which is clearly untrue. The sound exists whether or not you hear it.

Bees fly,aerodynamics;Bee convert sugars into heat, bee move heat  air and water to conduct evapourative cooling, Thermodynamics; bees build structures,mechanics; Bees used polarised light for navigation, optics...

Maybe Finnish bees know more than Finnish Beekeepers, or finnish beekeepers arent that interested in their bees and can only measure their knowledge in kilos of honey
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 10:37:40 am
and can only measure their knowledge in kilos of honey

So it is...

.



Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 04, 2012, 12:17:54 pm
 8-)  Finally we arrive at the root of Finski's thoughts.  Its all about the honey  :shock:
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 01:14:33 pm
8-)  Finally we arrive at the root of Finski's thoughts.  Its all about the honey  :shock:

Those who are not able get honey from they hives, they must choice other meaning to their stinging bugs.

Catch and release beekeeping.

Guys leave all honey for winter food. Then they feed bees from July to May.  In June they feed swarms.

And there are 10 ways to feed hives. outdoors and indoors. Wet, dry, moist, hard and what ever ways.


Be broud about that.

.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 04, 2012, 04:42:15 pm
Sorry Fin, those are your 'assumptions' nothing more.  You have alot of them  :-D  We know.

I get more than enough honey from my bees but it has never been my primary motivation for keeping them.  And I've already told you I 'rarely' get stung despite 7-10 day inspections. 

I'm hardly alone, especially these days.  Perhaps I don't get stung because I'm not always taking all their honey.  Hmmmm? 

As you've told us; You TAKE all honey and feed your bees enough syrup in the Fall to survive until March or April, and now you seem to be condemning those who chose to leave enough honey for overwintering so they don't have to feed syrup unless there's an extreme reason to do so. 

Are you kidding or is it that language barrier thing again?  :-D

Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing? 

Please say it isn't so  :?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 05:14:42 pm


Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing? 

Please say it isn't so  :?

No, It is bad thing to the beekeeper. He will be short of money and his wife must get second job.

.
But sincerely guys, you have    chronic short of jokes there.

. Go to second hand shop and by a joke book. Couple of dollars, I suppose.

http://www.101funjokes.com/ (http://www.101funjokes.com/)

.

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Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 05:30:06 pm
.
I tel now one...

Our President Urho Kekkonen was in Soviet Union hunting bears.
The party has quite much security guards with them.
Suddenly president Kekkonen got into sight a bear and he shooted it and he got it.

When the bear was then butchered, they found over 70 bullets from bear.





Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rail on December 04, 2012, 06:15:12 pm

[/quote]Those who are not able get honey from they hives, they must choice other meaning to their stinging bugs.[/quote]

Choices; :roll:

honey?
queens?
pollinate?
wax?
relaxation?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: little john on December 04, 2012, 08:07:48 pm


Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing? 

Please say it isn't so  :?

No, It is bad thing to the beekeeper. He will be short of money and his wife must get second job.

.
But sincerely guys, you have    chronic short of jokes there.

. Go to second hand shop and by a joke book. Couple of dollars, I suppose.

http://www.101funjokes.com/ (http://www.101funjokes.com/)

.

.

Going into 'joke mode' - pretty good way of avoiding a serious question.

Reminds me of when I used to go trapping eels - slippery little buggers - hard to get a grip on.

Quote
Choices; rolleyes

honey?
queens?
pollinate?
wax?
relaxation?

Add:
NUCs ?
packages ?

enjoyment ?
retirement hobby ?
altruism ?
environmental concern ?

sting therapy ? (but definitely NOT for me)

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 08:16:33 pm
-
Get a life?

You have seemengly everyhting all.

Sting therapy is the best.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: little john on December 04, 2012, 08:22:48 pm
Personal insults ? Yet another way of avoiding such questions.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 08:39:03 pm
Personal insults ? Yet another way of avoiding such questions.


That was my great idea

(http://orange.ertk.info/images/limon_kladovaya_vitamina_s_2.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 08:56:25 pm
-
An Dalmatian went to a telegram office, took out a blank form and wrote, “Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof. Woof.”

The clerk examined the paper and politely told the dog: “There are only nine words here. You could send another ‘Woof’ for the same price.”

“But,” the dog replied, “that would make no sense at all.”
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 04, 2012, 10:40:57 pm
Quote
As others here have said, it appears that the foam hives can act more like an ice cooler than a heater .

Good heavens what rubbish. Bees themselves generate the herat into the hive 36C. It they do not, they are dead.
I believe you have been known to add electric heat into a poly hive if there isn't enough bees to keep it warm.  So evidently you also believe that insulation alone isn't enough.  You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive.  Too much box volume and the bees can not heat it....so it acts like an ice cooler  ;)

(http://www.thedailygreen.com/media/cm/thedailygreen/images/cooler-ice-food-lg.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 04, 2012, 11:46:24 pm

I believe you have been known to add electric heat into a poly hive if there isn't enough bees to keep it warm.  So evidently you also believe that insulation alone isn't enough.  You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive.  Too much box volume and the bees can not heat it....so it acts like an ice cooler  ;)


It is better that you phone to Brother Adams. He will help you.


Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: RHBee on December 05, 2012, 02:27:21 am
 :pop:
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 05, 2012, 04:13:39 am
You need the right amount of bees for a given volume of hive. 

No one give to me volume. I fit the hive according the amount of bees. Allways. You know, the hive enlarges in spring  and in autumn it becomes small. I have 6-8 boxes in summer and 1 or 2 box in winter.

I heat my hives 2 months in a year. And the reason is not that I have too few bees. If you know, the hive size is minimum after winter. Have you noticed that.

I have too few bees?  I think that I have too much.

And third: Polybox is not to keep bees in cool. Can you imagine  that?
And at least we do not have such beekeeprs who put vegetables and ice cubics into beehive.
Cavities of the bees' are to keep bees warm.





.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 05, 2012, 05:31:56 am
I basically agree with what you’re saying Finski.  I USUALLY build my hives according to the amount of bees; just as you say.  However when I didn’t follow that rule and left a bigger space, the bees were really struggling to keep warm, even in a 19mm foam insulated hive.  The bees in more compact boxes were much warmer.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 05, 2012, 05:47:16 am
.
Hi Pal. I have nursed my hives 50 years without your help.  I have got splended yields at the level of Alaska what you have never seen or dreamed.
I bought my first appartment in capital city with honey money 1973.
Please, don't explain your wax and sting therapy.

I am sad that I have wasted my time with a guy like you. I am really bored now about your spamming.

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 05, 2012, 06:10:05 am
Wow Finski, having 'another' bad day huh? 

If 'answering' questions is wasting your time and bores you, why come around?  Burned too many bridges, perhaps?  That'd be my guess  ;)

Just so you can tell us how great a beek you are w/ your 50 years of experience?  No one cares for braggers, especially those throwing insults along w/ useless advise.

You can be a real BORE and seem to have no problem wasting others time w/ your irrational (drug or alcohol induced?) rants. 

Please get over yourself  :-D  Come on down off your throne Fin, its got to be lonely up there.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 05, 2012, 07:02:10 am
I second what T Beek said so eloquently. X:X 

Everybody else was trying to discuss bees and bee behavior inside insulated hives in this tread.  Talking about bees on a bee forum isn’t exactly my definition of spamming.  Spewing insults at everybody else would be closer to spamming.

It’s a new day, let’s hit the reset button and start over.  :)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 05, 2012, 08:04:17 am
.
Heh heh heh
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 05, 2012, 08:48:27 am
and can only measure their knowledge in kilos of honey

So it is...

If you use a persons past  honey yield as means to attack their arguments you are attacking the person not the argument(Ad hominem - just for edward)
To use a persons honey yield as ameans to attack their overall grasp of science is just another personal attack.
If someone can show better grasp of science than you, then to dismiss science where it obviously relavent is just another personal attack.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: RHBee on December 05, 2012, 10:59:04 am
 :nicethread: :pop: I'm sure Finski has a twin on another forum. Nothing to do with bees. U know just the guy that has to stir up s#*t. Fun to watch guys who know their stuff going at it. I'm just sayin. :-D Don't flame me to bad but I thought this thread was about a really cool looking insulated hive. Y'all keep it up. Have fun.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 05, 2012, 11:46:21 am
here's a couple of hives recently in the frost. you can see the condensation of frost above the entrance from the heat plume out of the entrance.

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/user6228_pic2520_1354406435.jpg)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0258.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: buzzbee on December 05, 2012, 06:45:21 pm
Now come on everyone, here is rule 2 of our forum:


RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.

If you don't agree with someone's view, EXPRESS your views rather than tear down theirs. You have the option on EVERY POST to report that post to Moderators, use this to quickly make us aware of a possible problem, we will take it from there.

Be kind to other members, do not put them down, bait them into fighting or do anything to create a fight whether in open forum or private messaging. Trashing another member will surely lead you toward the banishment door quickly. New members are expected to abide by the same rules as seasoned members. We believe that Ignorance of a rule is NO excuse to break it – you are expected to read the bylaws and strictly abide by them.

 Pay attention! The door slams without warning sometimes. Lets not race to the bottom.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 05, 2012, 07:10:00 pm
 :bee: During peak season the bee stings the beekeeper  :bee:

 :fishhit: In the off season the beekeeper stings other beekeepers  :buttkick:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 05, 2012, 07:32:15 pm
Well insulated hives make the bees job easier to regulate the hive temperature, both in the summer and winter.

In Sweden and other cold winter countries you can help/save week hives by putting them i barns or cellars where the temperature fluctuations between night and day are minimal, this means that the bees don't have to work so hard to change there heat output to compensate, this also means there will bee less condensation due to temperature fluctuation.

 :bee: It works  :bee:

I wouldn't dream of wrapping my hives i black tar paper and top ventilating them, but it seems to work for those that do practice that way of beekeeping.

Look ask (AND UNDERSTAND) what works for your neighbors and act accordingly  ;)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 06, 2012, 12:25:36 am
Now come on everyone, here is rule 2 of our forum:


RULE 2) BE KIND and INTERACT, NOT REACT. AGREE TO DISAGREE EVEN IF ATTACKED BY ANOTHER MEMBER - WE WILL HANDLE THE OTHER MEMBER.

If you don't agree with someone's view,.

Oh my goodness.

It seems that in this forum the biggest mistake is that a beekeeper try to get big yield from his hives and the bigger mistake is if he extracts the yield and give sugar for winter food.

Like that policeman explained in this forum that he know that phenomenom. If people are poor, they must sell honey to keep alive their families. In some countries...

Now I was allowed to know that my polyhives are freezeners and I heat hives with electrich because I have so few bees in them.

I have just explained proubly that one hives had 15 frames brood and another 20 frames.

And then I try to explain to these guys that bees keep 36C temp inside the brood box. But these guys insist that "don't you understand that your bees are in freezener".

Ridiculous "discussion"

That is pure spamming. No one can not be that stupid.
But if the guys are serious, first thing what moderator should do is call an ambulance to those guy's home.


.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 06, 2012, 12:28:02 am
.
Very typical spamming

Sorry Fin, those are your 'assumptions' nothing more.  You have alot of them  :-D  We know.

I get more than enough honey from my bees but it has never been my primary motivation for keeping them.  And I've already told you I 'rarely' get stung despite 7-10 day inspections.  

I'm hardly alone, especially these days.  Perhaps I don't get stung because I'm not always taking all their honey.  Hmmmm?  

As you've told us; You TAKE all honey and feed your bees enough syrup in the Fall to survive until March or April, and now you seem to be condemning those who chose to leave enough honey for overwintering so they don't have to feed syrup unless there's an extreme reason to do so.  

Are you kidding or is it that language barrier thing again?  :-D

Are you trying to convince someone that leaving bees enough of their own honey for winter is a BAD thing?  

Please say it isn't so  :?


And that happens in every issue what I write here. Mr Black Jack is allways exhihibiting his black humour.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 06, 2012, 12:33:47 am
.

In Sweden and other cold winter countries you can help/save week hives by putting them i barns or cellars

Very seldom because modern hives are so good. You cannot collect 1000 hives from woods to cellar.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 06, 2012, 01:17:49 am
In Sweden and other cold winter countries you can help/save week hives by putting them i barns or cellars
Very seldom because modern hives are so good. You cannot collect 1000 hives from woods to cellar.

Week and hives with small amount bees that are a gamble to try and get them through the winter with new queens. Not normal production hives.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 06, 2012, 05:41:30 am


Week and hives with small amount bees that are a gamble to try and get them through the winter with new queens. Not normal production hives.

mvh edward  :-P

They are said nucs and they are often 5 frame hives.
That is true.

But in north there is nothing unclear in this issue, how the wintering goes and in what kind of hives.

If wintering is unclear, the guy will loose his hives. He cannot continues more than 2 years.
He kills his first hives and then next yeard second hives. And if even only small part of his brains works, he gives up then.


Oh mine..... open feeding before the permanent snow cover falls down?

We have today independence day. Should I arrange open feeding to hives. Temp is -10 and snow coves is 25 cm. They surely come get some dry sugar and honey balls.

Wake up wake  up! It is indepence day!!!
Come on. Don't be shy!
..
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 06, 2012, 05:56:28 am
A little early to be hitting it already isn't it?  :-D

How'd you get so smart :?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 06, 2012, 06:14:20 am
T Beek, I’m afraid our friend might be on a honey ball high this morning.  :) 

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Queen%20Bees/HoneyBallsBowl.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 06, 2012, 06:16:29 am
Of Course!  That must be it  :-D
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 06, 2012, 06:30:39 am
.
I found now a nice list of open feeding days

http://www.usa.gov/citizens/holidays.shtml (http://www.usa.gov/citizens/holidays.shtml)

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: buzzbee on December 06, 2012, 07:17:01 am
Did anyone see reply 87?
I may wake up grumpy one morning.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 06, 2012, 07:41:25 am
Absolutely and thanks!  Wish it would happen more often to be honest.  To often folks are just put down for their input rather than debated and that is a shame.  Too many posters have just disappeared after repeated attacks.  There is a definite lack of common courtesy permeating and percolating by some and it sometimes requires a referee.  So Thanks again for being there!

However, It is most unfortunate that some feel they are exempted from any rules at all and get away w/ the same type of infantile slamming of others over and over, effectively reducing any attempt to have meaningful dialogue. (the BeeMaster Pets, if you will).

I'm still glad someone is watching though.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 06, 2012, 11:18:38 am
Absolutely and thanks!  Wish it would happen more often to be honest.  To often folks are just put down for their input rather than debated and that is a shame.  Too many posters have just disappeared after repeated attacks.  There is a definite lack of common courtesy permeating and percolating by some and it sometimes requires a referee.  So Thanks again for being there! However, It is most unfortunate that some feel they are exempted from any rules at all and get away w/ the same type of infantile slamming of others over and over, effectively reducing any attempt to have meaningful dialogue. (the BeeMaster Pets, if you will)I'm still glad someone is watching though.

I think that you forgot to look in the mirror this morning  ;) Maybee you should take stock of your last posts  :-\

edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 06, 2012, 12:34:12 pm
Pot calling the kettle black?  Don't like the "shoulds" best to keep them to yourself.  :-D

But if you want to play....................... ;)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 06, 2012, 02:31:36 pm
But if you want to play....... ;)

No, not really.

I visit this site to learn more about beekeeping like most of the users.
It makes for boring reading when a post turns into who got in the last punch under the belt  :-\

This is my last comment, so feel free to get the last punch in if you need to and it makes you feel better  :-\

Back to promoting better beekeeping and the understanding of it, or at least we can try to understand what the bees are doing in there hive.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 06, 2012, 02:45:02 pm
Bee Warmer or Ice Cooler?  You be the judge:

Here’s the test subjects:  a single story poly hive, a double decker poly hive, and a double decker wood hive.  All holding medium frames and similar amounts of bees.

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/IceCooler1.jpg)
 (http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/IceCooler2.jpg)

Here’s the test data:

Single Story 6 frame medium nuc in poly box = 57F/14C inside
Double Decker medium nuc in poly box = 45F/7C
Double Decker medium nuc in WOOD box = 48/9C

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/IceCooler3.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/IceCooler4.jpg)
(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Foam%20Nucs/IceCooler5-1.jpg)

So which of these configurations is the warmest and which is even COOLER than a wood hive?

Don't get me wrong, I am strong proponent of poly hives.  My bees have done absolutely fantastic with 38mm+ of polystyrene.  I’m not putting down the idea of insulation, I’m just pointing out there are situations where insulation can work against you in a bee hive.  Namely if you don’t have enough insulation or the volume of the box is too large or you don’t have enough bees in the box.  This is not some new revelation on my part; the science of heat transfer was developed by Isaac Newton (from the UK) over 300 years ago.  http://www.eoht.info/page/Newton%E2%80%99s+law+of+cooling (http://www.eoht.info/page/Newton%E2%80%99s+law+of+cooling)   
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 06, 2012, 02:53:12 pm
Another excellent post from BlueBee X:X. 

Very interesting results.........so far ;)

Please keep us posted.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 06, 2012, 03:18:55 pm
A healthy hive will adjust to whatever house they have as a hive.

Barns, walls, trees, oil drums, old chests, the list is endless, even wooden and poly hive will do.

To keep the hive warm they need energy, when they consume sugar/syrup/honey under a long period there bowels fill up :-X. The more they have to work to keep the hive warm and if the winters are long the greater the risk that they will have a fatal accident and the hive will become full of crap  :-X

Cleaning hives after this is one of the worst jobs as a beekeeper  :-x

More insulation less feed consumption = healthier bees , and lower cost for feed for the beekeeper.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 07, 2012, 06:10:16 am
Bee Warmer or Ice Cooler?  You be the judge:
Here’s the test subjects:  a single story poly hive, a double decker poly hive, and a double decker wood hive.  All holding medium frames and similar amounts of bees.So which of these configurations is the warmest and which is even COOLER than a wood hive?

I think you are measuring the temperature in the wrong place, you should measure inside the mass of bees.

You are also mixing wooden and plastic frames and these lead warmth and cold at different temperatures.

Another parameter you should consider is weight and how much honey/sugar store that they need to use to sustain there optimal temperature inside the hive.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 08:16:22 am
.
Bluebee disturbs his hives. They are not in wintering mode. Cluster temp may rise up to 42C it that style.

Cluster temperatures has been measured decades ago and it is well know the heat system of cluster.

awfull

1) http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html (http://westmtnapiary.com/winter_cluster.html)

2) Endothermic heat production in honeybee winter clusters
Anton Stabentheiner*, Helga Pressl, Thomas Papst, Norbert Hrassnigg and Karl Crailsheim
Institut für Zoologie, Universität Graz, Universitätsplatz 2, A-8010 Graz, Austria
*Author for correspondence (e-mail: anton.stabentheiner@uni-graz.at)
Accepted 17 October 2002

3)
[PDF]  
The Biology and Management of Colonies in Winter - CAPA Bees


www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf (http://www.capabees.com/main/files/pdf/winteringpdf.pdf)



Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 07, 2012, 08:32:36 am
bluebee,
  You need a remote means of measuring the temp at different levels inside the cluster area and outside it without the measurement  process altering the readings i.e with the roof on.
inside  the cluster to measure the activity of th ebees,  outside the cluster  to see the contribution of the hive. I'm moving from thermocouples to digital  temperature  acquisition system  that I have made  with typically 16 measurement point per hive but it could go as high as 8 per frame
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 09:50:14 am
.

Look here

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458)

Heat regulation of Apis mellifera during winter


Like this

(http://jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353/F1.large.jpg)


Hive temp on inner cover during winter.
It tells cluster movement from bottom to up
http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/colony_temperature.htm (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/colony_temperature.htm)

(http://bee.freesuperhost.com/yabbfiles/Attachments/temperature.jpg)
.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 07, 2012, 10:44:06 am
.

Look here

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458 (http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=8458)

...

I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
It would be rash to say that nothing changes in bee behaviour if you reduce the heat loss to a 1/5th  or a 1/10th of those experiments.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 10:57:22 am


I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
 

Here is your home place's forecast
http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/ (http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/)

I wonder how are you able to speak about lowheat environment. YOu ponds do not even get ice cover there.
Your hives get pollen from nature in January. My hives get in May. From where that wisdom all comes?

You have nothing to tell to these beekepers

http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html (http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html)

Next monday weather
day night

-16 C | -24 °C




.


.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 07, 2012, 11:11:00 am
Yes, I need to instrument some hives just as soon as I get about 14 other things done first.  Realistically it just isn’t going to happen.  The best I’m going to be able to do is my crude measurements and visual observations.  You can get a pretty good sense of how warm it is in there by looking at the cluster.  If they are tight and barely moving, we know the hive is on the cold side.  If the bees are barely in cluster and roaming around, we know it’s above 60F/15C.

Finski is right.  The bees can definitely generate a lot of heat when disturbed.  But I know a disturbed bee when I see one.  They weren’t disturbed the other day.  The warmest hive was the “heat bubble” design with 38mm of foam.  The bees were just calmly walking around; not even in cluster.  Actually my small mating nucs with 50mm worth of foam were a little more active, so maybe they were the warmest.  That reminds me I do need to give them some more honey balls.

The tops of my hives are using a plastic sheet/foil which the bees glue to the hive.  That is then covered by an exterior top cover.  As long as I don’t break the plastic foil seal, the bees pay no attention when I just look in at them.  Like Brother Adam said, light seems to have a calming effect on bees.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 07, 2012, 11:46:51 am


I've read all those before, they all deal with bees in a very high heat loss enviroment. All very very much higher than the tree nest. There is very little research availalble on bees in lowheat  loss environments
 

Here is your home place's forecast
http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/ (http://www.ihampshire.co.uk/weather/)

I wonder how are you able to speak about lowheat environment. YOu ponds do not even get ice cover there.
Your hives get pollen from nature in January. My hives get in May. From where that wisdom all comes?
You have nothing to tell to these beekepers

http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html (http://www.wunderground.com/weather-forecast/FI/Jyvaskyla.html)

Next monday weather
day night

-16 C | -24 °C
I have education and lived on days other than today and in other places than here. Apart from also  having a supply of liquid nitrogen ... you can make great pure Gin ice cubes when you are not performing low temperture experiments

btw now you are attacking someone based on where they now live ... you've tried nationality, number of hives, honey yield, now home climate... Should I attack you because you dont know the definition of the scientific word concentration ?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Alessandro on December 07, 2012, 12:37:34 pm
About Filland
Do you move the hives to get more honey and more money?
Regard
Alessandro
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 02:05:50 pm
About Filland
Do you move the hives to get more honey and more money?


Yes, it is only reason. No one pays for pollination here. We have so much natural pollinators that bees are not needed.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 07, 2012, 02:25:35 pm
That brings up an interesting point to ponder.  Do we really need migratory beeking?  Are those paying for the service 'always' getting their money's worth or just convinced their crops will do better w/ honeybees brought in for pollination? 

I don't know, I'm asking.  Our indigenous bees do a fantastic job around here but we are blessed w/ excellent location.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 03:05:35 pm
 Do we really need migratory beeking?  ?  

I don't know, I'm asking.

You do not know? So you do not know much about beekeeping.
To many in this forum beekeeping is only a tool that you may fill you lonely days with discussing all king of stupid things.

Honey industry and honey production needs.  To catch and release beekeepers honey is a pure nuisance, so called "production waste".
.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Alessandro on December 07, 2012, 04:21:24 pm

Hi,
a friend of mine who is a beekeeper had gone to Finland, but he did not see flowers for the bees, but  I've read on this forum that  he' s wrong.
How many times do you move the hives every year?
Regards
Alessandro
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 07, 2012, 04:40:17 pm
.
Usually one time.

Our summer is short.

Willows bloom 1.5-25.5
Apple and dandelion first week of June

Raspberry starts blooming 25.6 and blooms 2 weeks

Then it comes rape

Willow herb is 10.7-27.7

All are finish 10.8. and planst start to gather energy for wintering.

.We have much rain in best summer time.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 08, 2012, 06:50:35 am
 Do we really need migratory beeking?  ?  

I don't know, I'm asking.

You do not know? So you do not know much about beekeeping.
To many in this forum beekeeping is only a tool that you may fill you lonely days with discussing all king of stupid things.

Honey industry and honey production needs.  To catch and release beekeepers honey is a pure nuisance, so called "production waste".
.

Finski;  Maybe the question 'seems' stupid to you because you DO NOT understand it or DON'T KNOW the answer.  Why do you 'think' all the questions are for you anyway?  They're NOT.

Your opinion is enjoyed mostly by you.  You can't fool everyone.  Never fooled me anyway.  To be honest your "RUDE" comments have become light entertainment at best  :roll:

Still can't remove yourself from that throne you've placed yourself, heh?

It is my personal belief (and others too) that 'migratory' beekeeping, they way it is now conducted, has done more harm to honeybees than any other human caused factor.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 07:30:29 am
.
beek, change your medication. You have balls to say professional beekeepers what they ought to do. In my country or in Alaska you are not able to keep alive not a single hive.



It is my personal belief (and others too) that 'migratory' beekeeping, they way it is now conducted, has done more harm to honeybees than any other human caused factor.


So simple, if you make your living with bees, you need minimum 700 hives to run business.
You cannot keep hives in one place. You must migrate them. That is professional beekeeping.
Rape field blooms only 2 weeks. What do you do then with hives? You have still 50 weeks left in a year.

steady place do not give yield the whole year. So it is better to move hives from pasture to pasture.

Like my home yeard gives only 30 kg per hive, because there is not enough flowers for that hive number. So I move them 5-20 km away, and I may get there 100 kg hive and solitary hives may get 200 kg.

USA is the only place wher CCD exists. They move their hives to tropical conditions and winter their hives in summer conditions.
And like you, you get open feeding even in winter that bees have not winter rest. --- And you just feeded hives a month ago?


.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 07:49:04 am
.
Look at that where your hives winter

Florida out temp 26C/80F   http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/boatbeach/floridaforecasthighs_large.html (http://www.weather.com/maps/activity/boatbeach/floridaforecasthighs_large.html)

Anchorage Alaska 9F/- 13C
 Next 10 days 20F/ -5C
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 08, 2012, 08:18:15 am
Huh? 

Who is confused?  My bees are a long way from Florida or Alaska.  In N/W Wisconsin our weather on average is MORE severe than Anchorage.

ALL BEEKEEPING IS LOCAL

I thought you told us just a few days ago that this place 'bored' you and that you were 'wasting' your time here.  Did you get over that? 

What changed?  Besides the insults  :roll:.  Nobody likes a "know it all" who knows little of what they speak. 

Are you looking for friends or making enemies?  What is your purpose here?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 08:24:37 am


ALL BEEKEEPING IS LOCAL

Eccept professional

Before the border was closed, Floridan beekeepers moved their hives to Canadian canola fields.


Picture about local beekeeping

(http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/200909/r428926_2048663.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 08, 2012, 08:35:15 am
Boring
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: T Beek on December 08, 2012, 08:38:53 am
See ya, wouldn't want to be ya  :-D

Hey Fin;  lets make a deal. 

I'll go back to ignoring you and you can 'start' ignoring me.  How about it?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 08, 2012, 09:43:42 am
You need a remote means of measuring the temp at different levels inside the cluster area and outside it without the measurement  process altering the readings i.e with the roof on.inside  the cluster to measure the activity of th ebees,  outside the cluster  to see the contribution of the hive. I'm moving from thermocouples to digital  temperature  acquisition system  that I have made  with typically 16 measurement point per hive but it could go as high as 8 per frame

A beekeeping college did this with a few inexpensive thermometers, the indoor out door kind with a cable and a sensor that he placed throughout the hive.
He could also determine where the bee mass was by the temperature readings. He didn't have to open the hive to take readings and disturb the bees.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 08, 2012, 12:45:40 pm
T Beek is right.

I know of 3 commercial bee keepers around me and not a single one is a migratory bee keeper.  One guy has a huge honey house, wood shop, and storage barn that probably cost $150,000+ to build.  He gets around 32 tons of honey a year here in Michigan without moving hives.  That’s 29,000kg of honey.  How many kg is Finski getting?

As T Beek says, bee keeping is local, it depends a lot on your climate.  In Michigan we have something flowing all summer long and it is not required  to move hives around to get large yields.  Could we get even bigger yields by moving hives to monoculture fields every couple of weeks?  Maybe, but it is not necessary to be profitable in my area.  Moving hives requires more labor, gasoline, time, and money; one must balance that against potentially higher yields, pesticide exposure, loss of bees and CCD.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 08, 2012, 12:51:56 pm
Edward, that is interesting.  There are some low cost instrumentation systems available here that allow you to record data onto a Flash Chip (SD card) and then download the data to your computer for display.  If I didn’t have some more pressing problems right now, I would give that a try first.  They come with about 8 channels you can hook thermistors onto to get temperature readings. 

That would work for getting readings around the cluster, but it might be difficult to stuff the thermistors down into the cluster.  What would really be neat would be a plastic frame/foundation with embedded thermistors over the face of the foundation!  Then you could get temperature readings and be able to accurately map them over the volume of the cluster.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 08, 2012, 01:06:57 pm
T Beek is right.

I know of 3 commercial bee keepers around me and not a single one is a migratory bee keeper.  One guy has a huge honey house, wood shop, and storage barn that probably cost $150,000+ to build.  He gets around 32 tons of honey a year here in Michigan without moving hives.  That’s 29,000kg of honey.  How many kg is Finski getting?

As T Beek says, bee keeping is local, it depends a lot on your climate.  In Michigan we have something flowing all summer long and it is not required  to move hives around to get large yields.  Could we get even bigger yields by moving hives to monoculture fields every couple of weeks?  Maybe, but it is not necessary to be profitable in my area.  Moving hives requires more labor, gasoline, time, and money; one must balance that against potentially higher yields, pesticide exposure, loss of bees and CCD.

yes but your man is going for HONEY --it is possible to run static yards without migrating-most keepers that are migratory in the true sense of the word are POLLINATORS-they have to move to and with the crops-not everything blooms same time-almond -cheery-apricots -peach apple- pear and so it goes they follow the bloom----as far as
local pollinators filling the bill it simply wont work in the huge corporate monoculture of agriculture we have today-there is more to it than being self sustaining --we gota feed the world--its a double edge sword---RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 08, 2012, 01:11:06 pm
Good point Rdy-b and of course you are right too.  Finski seemed to be suggesting that commercial HONEY production depended upon migration and that is simply not the case in my area.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 01:18:33 pm
.
Beekeeping is global.

Biggest export producers 2009

http://www.planetexim.net/Export-Import-Data-Report/Honey.aspx (http://www.planetexim.net/Export-Import-Data-Report/Honey.aspx)



Beekeeping is local. Yes to ensure that  you bye colonies from Austaralia, you move colonies from Florida to Alaska.

"The packs for Washington are 3# an 4#. Price for 3# is 85.00, 4# for 95.00.  San Juan Island 100.00.
 
The Alaskan Packs are 5# We also have 4#'s.  Price for 4# 135.00.  Price for 5# 145.00.
 
All Packages come with mated Queens.
 
All payments are due when the bees are ordered.  Check, Cash and Credit Cards.

 

 Make Alaska wildflover honey

Last year a 4 pound package was selling for between $130 and $145 depending on which supplier you ordered from.


We will be bringing in packages from our same supplier that we have used for many years.  John has consistently given us healthy 4 pound packages with great queens.  John has had to increase his price by $5 this year.  

If shipping structures stay the same as last year,  I would expect that our package price will be $135 for a 4 pound package,  We will be able to more accurately predict shipping rates in mid-January.

Once again, we will target the middle of April for the bee delivery dates.  We have scheduled the first load of bees to arrive on the 13th of April.  More bees will arrive on the 17th, 18th, 19th, and 20th with the last load arriving on the 24th.


Bees are shipped over a 6 day period to minimize the risk of package loss.  Shipping by airfreight is always a challenge due to the limited space on cargo planes.  We reserve priority space well in advance to assure that our bees have as direct and quick transport as possible.  We have had good success shipping bees to Alaska.

Send us an email if you want to  order your bees for next spring.

A limited number of hived packages on new comb will be available for pickup in May!  Call us for details or check out our services page.   


USA- BANNED THE IMPORTATION OF QUEENS AND BEE PACKAGES FROM AUSTRALIA


Saturday, 04 December 2010 20:44 Written by Analia Manriquez


 
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 08, 2012, 01:35:49 pm
Good point Rdy-b and of course you are right too.  Finski seemed to be suggesting that commercial HONEY production depended upon migration and that is simply not the case in my area.

 yes and i believe it is far more profitable for the honey producer to be local-better market price
 and less overhead -and we already know its better for the bees---happy bees are productive bees--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 01:45:06 pm
.
Fasten your seat belts when hobby beekeepers start to reorganize  world's beekeeping


Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 08, 2012, 01:54:47 pm
(http://www.indycar.com/~/media/IndyCar/News/Standard/2012/12-December/12-7-Star-Mazda-Announcement-Std.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 02:24:17 pm
.
5 years ago it was common that top bar beekeepers saved the earth.

Now, local beekeepers are right. Global beeks are out.

What is next trend? Toy beekeeping is becoming more usual...
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 08, 2012, 03:14:47 pm
**Now, local beekeepers are right. Global beeks are out.**

 yes global beekeeping has ground to a halt-the onset of disease and pathogen
pre varoa is a thing of past-even interstate travel is more complicated than before

** What is next trend? Toy beekeeping is becoming more usual..**

 out going toy trend-electric heat by light bulb--incoming trend insulated with heat shield for travel
through atmosphere for space shuttle discovery--RDY-B

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Space_Shuttle_(HRSI_tile).png/500px-Space_Shuttle_(HRSI_tile).png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Space_Shuttle_(HRSI_tile).png/500px-Space_Shuttle_(HRSI_tile).png)

 
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 04:02:52 pm


 out going through atmosphere for space shuttle discovery--RDY-B



 

How to get rid of from this level, - at first

Goldilocks and the three bears - Kids Stories - LearnEnglish Kids British Council (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oaw-d3r_gIc#ws)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 08, 2012, 04:24:40 pm
This forum has beekeepers from around the world and lots of different ways to keep bees, all of witch may bee correct locally.

At the extreme side of the scale we have the pollination of almonds in California were a large% of the hives in USA wind up in + all the problems that come with many hives in one place.
At the other end we have a hive at the end of the garden so the apple, pears, and raspberries bee come big and good to eat  :-D

I have for the first time this year moved hives for pollination of rape seeds, the first one didn't give and honey beecause of cold weather, the other one was filled with honey, but it was from the linden trees that were a long way up a hill even though the hives were put in the middle of the rape field in full bloom.
Both were local pollination's and I chose hives that were from out side the local flight radius of the hives.

I have even helped a colleague move hive to pollinate rape and clover fields 180km away, I don't think at the moment I will bee investing my time in that but who knows what the future holds.

But its still light years away from pollinating almonds and mixing hives from all over compactly in one place.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 08, 2012, 04:45:03 pm
 yes but how did your bees do- thats my first concern when i place hives--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 08, 2012, 05:12:19 pm
They are fine  :-D

I have all my bees in permanent bee yards, these lost some hives temporarily to the pollination Job under a few weeks.

I choose my bee yards with care and usually look for beautiful locations, lots of weeds and flowers and a source of water.  :-D

I live in an area with about 100 000 people and my goal is to have hives i every suburb so the whole town can buy local honey from there own area and/or garden.

My girls and I make the whole town bloom and look good and put food on every body's plate.  :shock:

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 05:27:52 pm
yes but how did your bees do- thats my first concern when i place hives--RDY-B

Every guy has his own pastures and decisions where he put his hives.
If he keeps in same places hives, he does not need to know  about flowers or pastures.
Just keep them there and wait.

The distance between two yards may be  5 km and the yield is easily 3 fold, and even 5 fold
That I have learned.
.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 08, 2012, 05:51:00 pm
.
When I started beekeeping, I had hives on  house area which every house had 1000 m2 garden estate.
It gove good yield in June but nothing in July.

I knew 7 beekeepers inside 1 km radius.

I moved my hives for July 15 km away to woods. I drived that distance with bicycle. Then I got moped. 10 years later I got a car.

migrative beekeeping with bicycle. You have never heard about that, because  you have believed that it is local.


(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2144/2188620269_3a318d7ba5.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 08, 2012, 07:18:12 pm
Finski are you saying you bicycled 15km to your hives in the woods and then another 15km home?  30km = 18 miles.  That is quite a trek!  In the summer I try to bicycle for about an hour a day but that only gets me about 10 miles; 16km.  You must have been in pretty good shape to bike that many km with bees.

Where I live in Michigan it is mostly crop land (corn, beans, sugar beets, wheat) and industry so there isn’t much pollination business right around me.  But on the west side of the State they grow a lot of apples (3rd in the USA), blueberries (1st in USA highbush), tart cherries (1st in USA), and sweet Cherries (4th in USA).

Even with all those pollination crops just an hour or two away, the commercial guys around me make their money just putting hives around the rivers and woods.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 08, 2012, 10:18:26 pm
They are fine  :-D

I have all my bees in permanent bee yards, these lost some hives temporarily to the pollination Job under a few weeks.

I choose my bee yards with care and usually look for beautiful locations, lots of weeds and flowers and a source of water.  :-D

I live in an area with about 100 000 people and my goal is to have hives i every suburb so the whole town can buy local honey from there own area and/or garden.

My girls and I make the whole town bloom and look good and put food on every body's plate.  :shock:

mvh edward  :-P


yes this is the way to market your self-Edward your posts always make good sense-and the noledge you
have brought to the tabel about poly hives is the best the forum has seen- :)
there is a refreshing clarity when reading your posts keep up the good work   :th_thumbsupup:--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 08, 2012, 11:57:01 pm
yes this is the way to market your self-Edward

I don't compete with low priced import honey from china or nondescript locations classed as from the (european union)
The big Swedish beekeepers are in a race to produce cheap Swedish honey  :oops:

What part of the market is left?

Who´s honey tastes best?

You can ask YOURE self and the answer is "MINE" , if I wasn't a beekeeper it would bee ,moms,dads, brothers,sisters,grandpas,grandmas,uncle's,aunts,friends, or you nearest honey producing neighbour.

Its fun to taste honey from around the world, but if you could only choose one it most likely would bee a local honey.

The great thing about locally produced honey is that it cant bee imported from china or any other part of the country, its younique  :angel:

So I am going to give people a taste of there own gardens  :-D

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 12:07:18 am
.
Edward have a beautifull local story.

Since 1967 I have lived in capital city and my hives have been  100 miles away. Nothing is local in capital city.

Guys, you love those urban stories which have no value more than little bird's poo.

No one has told fairytales to you as young.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 12:23:04 am
Our friend finski is right in how hives work in winter in freezing climates.

But whose to say what winter is?

Winter for him an me is about the same, but winter comes to most beekeepers in different temperatures and lengths, some have "dearth" ?? a word I've never heard beefore. Made me wonder allot till I finally understood it, I think I prefer that my bees go into hibernation and conserve food stores.

The only sad thing is I don't get to visit them and play with them for 5 to 6 months of the year  :oops: :oops:

So the grass isn't always greener on the other side of the hive.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 12:27:38 am

Our friend finski is right in how hives work in winter in freezing climates.

But whose to say what winter is?

Oh boy! Look from wikipedia.

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 12:46:48 am
Edward have a beautifull local story.Since 1967 I have lived in capital city and my hives have been  100 miles away. Nothing is local in capital city. you love those urban stories

I have hives in and at the outskirts of forests to, the tree line is one of the best places to have hives.

The best place is (broken landscape) this is a mixture of farm lands(for cattle and horses) residential areas and forests. The reason is that there is always somthing flowering. Hard to find but worth it in the long run.

My largest bee yard is between 2 allotment garden complexes, that people have small summer cabins on, lots of different flower always in bloom and they want and understand the benefits of pollinating bees  :-D

The most spectacular place I have hive is downtown on the roof of the local theater, hard work but it promotes beekeeping for the local beekeeping club and on a national level.
An artikel from the lokal paper with google translator
http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Farbetarbladet.se%2Fnyheter%2Fgavle%2F1.3274347-tv-100-000-bin-flyttar-till-teatern&act=url (http://translate.google.se/translate?sl=sv&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=sv&ie=UTF-8&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Farbetarbladet.se%2Fnyheter%2Fgavle%2F1.3274347-tv-100-000-bin-flyttar-till-teatern&act=url)

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 12:58:10 am
Oh boy! Look from wikipedia
Winter (/ˈwɪntər/ WIN-tər) is the coldest season of the year in temperate climates, between autumn and spring. At the winter solstice, the days are shortest and the nights are longest, with days lengthening as the season progresses after the solstice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winter)

Nothing about temperature  ;)

I have lived i Scotland, England and Vancouver in Canada, every year winter came, if we were lucky we got a week of snow, an inch or to, enough to make snow men but the were always covered with straws of grass.

This last 5 days we got 3 feet of snow were I live in Sweden, I´m sick of the stuff and I haven't made any snowmen in years.  :-D

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 09, 2012, 01:14:12 am
Sometimes it doesn’t get cold enough in Michigan for automotive development so some companies used to have cold weather test facilities north of the Arctic Circle in Sweden!  It always seemed rather ridiculous to me to fly all the way to Sweden for cold weather testing when we have Canada just north of us.   

I like snow, but 3 feet is a bit much for this time of year!
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 09, 2012, 01:22:25 am
 funny thing about winter and location of bees-the bees dont know the difference from
from my country to yours-they dont say keep flying its not as cold as finland---  :lol:
what they know is that it is winter-they react to the change around them-only the beekeeper compares
severity of change-the bees will always go into winter mode when change comes-its preordained
there is no cornering of the market when it comes to wintering the bees have been doing it  on there own                                           long before fifty years of Humbug came to town-- ;)  :)--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 01:30:10 am
Sometimes it doesn’t get cold enough in Michigan for automotive development so some companies used to have cold weather test facilities north of the Arctic Circle in Sweden!  It always seemed rather ridiculous to me to fly all the way to Sweden for cold weather testing when we have Canada just north of us. I like snow, but 3 feet is a bit much for this time of year!

Hmmm.....  We got a lot of good looking girls in Sweden  :-D

They test the cars way out in the middle of nowhere, the industrial spies have a hard time finding the cars beecause of the vast area, and its cold. The whole town and local government pull together to make test tracks and special roads and helps the auto industry from all over the world, sometimes i see the transport trucks filled with camouflage cars going north. The whole area is tailored for the autoindustry

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 02:31:17 am
funny thing about winter and location of bees-the bees dont know the difference from
from my country to yours-they dont say keep flying its not as cold as finland---  :lol:

lol, you never speak about Alaska and about Alaska adapted queens?

Well, you need not. Let the Alaska guys take care themselves.
They kill hives in Autum and bye packages in Spring.

When I look Alaska hives, they wall structure is the same as in California. They consume so much food that they starve out.
Queens are same and they rear brood are long as they die.

In Canada  80% of beekeepers are professionals. They do not need forum advices and not at least from California.

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 09, 2012, 12:08:00 pm
**lol, you never speak about Alaska and about Alaska adapted queens?**

 gee if you where from alaska then thats all we would talk about -but your from finland so we
 will truch through-- ;)

 

**In Canada  80% of beekeepers are professionals. They do not need forum advices and not at least from California.**

 well it apears that guys from finland do--I went back and read your posts from 2004-read about poly hives
 and you said you used a top entrance or top vent for exaust of resperation moisture because of soilid botom board
you said not needed if you have screen botom board- :chop: thats what you wrote --but luckly time has pased
and you have learned from the forum how to run a poly hive now you are expert thanks to posters like EDWARD
you have gained the knoledge that poly hive lets watter drain out front from condenseing on the sides -with a insulated top cover
yes you no longer run your poly hives like a wood hive -there is a differance -I am glad that you are improving
your beekeeping skills- ;) try and get somthing acomplish today instead of internet sword fight with the AMERICAN BEEKEEPERS-- :ninja: dont take it personal have a nice day  :)  RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BjornBee on December 09, 2012, 12:26:58 pm
RDY-B
Finski has no negativity towards us ignorant, child's play feeding, clueless Americans.

And even if he did, any indifference will always be passed off due to a language barrier and YOU not understanding his goodwill and good nature. It will always be YOUR fault!

Get with the program.  :-D

You must certainly have better things to do.  ;)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: buzzbee on December 09, 2012, 12:40:14 pm
To all following this thread please read here:
http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,39635.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,39635.0.html)
If we need more to stop all the volleys  back and forth it will come and it may be unwarned. I've been posting and pm'ing in a couple topics the last week or so and it's starting to wear thin.I have probably been over tolerant,but that will end soon.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 12:46:48 pm
**lol, you never speak about Alaska and about Alaska adapted queens?**

 gee if you where from alaska then thats all we would talk about -but your from finland so we
 will truch through-- ;)

 

**In Canada  80% of beekeepers are professionals. They do not need forum advices and not at least from California.**

 well it apears that guys from finland do--I went back and read your posts from 2004-read about poly hives
 and you said you used a top entrance or top vent for exaust of resperation moisture because of soilid botom board
you said not needed if you have screen botom board- :chop: thats what you wrote --but luckly time has pased
and you have learned from the forum how to run a poly hive now you are expert thanks to posters like EDWARD
you have gained the knoledge that poly hive lets watter drain out front from condenseing on the sides -with a insulated top cover
yes you no longer run your poly hives like a wood hive -there is a differance -I am glad that you are improving
your beekeeping skills- ;) try and get somthing acomplish today instead of internet sword fight with the AMERICAN BEEKEEPERS-- :ninja: dont take it personal have a nice day  :)  RDY-B


hehhehehehehehehe. Beemaster saved me. Edwards saved me.

Edward Date Registered: March 06, 2010,



I have had polyboxes 25 years.
I have the same inner cover sructure as 25 years ago
My bottom boadrs are the same as 25 years ago.
I have upper entrances the same as 40 years ago,

A guy from California told it told to  me

Edward have written funny things but I do not remember what makes he guru.
He is the man who tell how to keep bees in Scandinavia.


heheheheh

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 09, 2012, 01:04:42 pm
speaking of Alaskan Beekeeping can anyone tell me how they move hives from flow to flow such as wildflower to fireweed if the sun is always shining and there is no dark --how do you move bees in this circumstance--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 01:09:17 pm
.
What Edward said

two years agho Edward wrote :

Interesting !

How big or small is your summer/winter ventilation ?  Width , height ,, diameter ?

I would assume that if you had a small ventilation hole/gap in the roof area , and if the bees din not think it was a good idea they would fill it with propolis.

Most of the bee keepers I know have no ventilation up top and a lot of ventilation in the bottom in wintertime.

Under their active season the bees should bee able to ventilate the hive to the climate they seem fit.

When they have gone into winter hibernation  and are in a cluster it is not possible for them to adjust there in hive climate as effectively.

mvh edward  


++++++++++

I live in Sweden most beekeepers here use polystyrene hives , I have a college that has a poly hive that is 30 years old , probably needs a new coat of paint  
The poly hive is light weight , easy to move , = spares your back = can keep beekeeping when your old and frail , or if you're Young and not so strong.

Warm in the winter , spring ,for brood. It also insulates against heat in the summer sun

Ventilation is a little backwards.

Spring and summer fall reduce the bottom ventilation , = earlier start for brood , easier for young bees to sweat wax , draw comb.

In the winter open the ventilation over the bottom of the hive ventilates condensation lets air in despite  of dead bees.

edward  


That habit is so called "modern". A mesh floor open in winter and no upper entrance.

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 09, 2012, 01:16:24 pm
 yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 01:24:27 pm
speaking of Alaskan Beekeeping can anyone tell me how they move hives from flow to flow such as wildflower to fireweed if the sun is always shining and there is no dark --how do you move bees in this circumstance--RDY-B


I move my hives only in the morning. I split my 100 kg heavy hives so that I can lift then on carry. Then I close them with transport mesh.

If bees are allready flying, as some hundreds do,  they may go to next door hive or I leave a nuc opn site which gathers bees. Then I join those bees to another hive.



Second thing is that sun is not shining all the time in Alaska. Anchorage has dark night in summer.  You must go 1000 km to north that sun shines even 24:00. But it does not heat.


In south Finland bees stop flying 2 hours before sunset when temp goes down to 18C.
If nectar is few, they have gathered flowers empty and they stop flyings 4 hours before sunset.

Two years ago I saw one hive flying one hour after sunset. Temp was then 25C but next door hives was asilent.


.
two box hive you close normally with mesh, and if you have a mesh floor, you close the entrance for example with foam plastic.

Then you start to drive in the morning.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 01:32:37 pm
.
You can see midd night sun over horizont at altitude 65 degree, but actually it is under horizont. The atmosphere twist ligh the size of the sun.

Basic temp in north is low and it goes lower in the evening. Bees cannot forage in that temperature.


Midnight sun. Taken from Eagle Summit north of Fairbanks, Alaska on June 20th through 21st, 1998


(http://www.eaglestation.com/sunsets/midnightsun62098.jpeg)


Fairbanks Alaska 65 degree latitude, elevation 136 m

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/AKMap-doton-Fairbanks.PNG)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: rdy-b on December 09, 2012, 01:33:41 pm
**Second thing is that sun is not shining all the time in Alaska. Anchorage has dark night in summer.  You must go 1000 km to north that sun shines even 24:00. But it does not heat.**

 my question came up from another beekeeper that went to Alaska and tried to produce
 honey-i dont know exact location of the event-they said it was a big problem moving without losing field force to get more than one flow during the trip-they must have bee closer to polar circle-I know the long days provide
 great return for the season-but moving the yards in these conditions is curious--RDY-B
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 01:43:08 pm
.
Our biggest beekeeper (3000 hives) moved 1000 hives to area of Arctic Zone. He tried to get pure fireweed honey because it does not crystallize.
First summer was perhaps something but next summer was a catastrophe. Bees coud not fly during that cold summer. After that he has been silent.
Yields are there  10-20 kg. Not worth to move hives 800 km.


That guy make polyhives and sell them at least to 10 country in Europe. He lives near me and I ask from him if I need some advices.
From Sweden I have nothing to learn. My brother have nursed bees  in north Sweden 20 years. He took 1972 from me 2 langstroth hives with Italian bees.
They have never seen in that district such hives.  My brother must bye foundations from DFinland because he did not get them from Sweden.


In those days  Sweden had this kind of hives .
Same with Finland
Practically it has one brood and one or two supers.

(http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-344J7fKzk3Y/T3C9sw1PnnI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/uttxHExd_8U/s1600/bikupa.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 02:02:59 pm
What Edward saidtwo years agho Edward wrote :Ventilation is a little backwards.
Spring and summer fall reduce the bottom ventilation , = earlier start for brood , easier for young bees to sweat wax , draw comb.
In the winter open the ventilation over the bottom of the hive ventilates condensation lets air in despite  of dead bees.

Even I have modified my beekeeping beehavior The most important thing is to reduce the ventilation in the spring build up so the hive is easier to keep warm when the bee mass drops as the winter bees die of and beefore the new bees hatch. If you miss this the hive will lag its way through the season.

Cold climate beekeeping is a sprint race, not a long marathon.

Big hives can need more ventilation in the warm summer and early in the fall to dry honey in time for harvesting.
The winter is still the same, lots of ventilation to get rid of excess damp.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 02:17:23 pm

The winter is still the same, lots of ventilation to get rid of excess damp.



There are  styles in that. You need only one styve when it works. You need not reinvent a wheel.

1) mesh floor open

2) solid bottom which has only 5% area that of mesh floor. Interior is warm and relative humidity keeps the hive dry.

3) Then, many close the mesh floor over winter.

4) 10 cm high bottom space

and so on

Iinked that youtube earlier. This guy has 1100 hives and solid poly bottoms.

Out temp -25C

bees wintering in finland (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltFEi07DTqM#ws)

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 02:23:11 pm
That guy make polyhives and sell them at least to 10 country in Europe. He lives near me and I ask from him if I need some advices.
In those days  Sweden had this kind of hives .Same with Finland Practically it has one brood and one or two supers. (http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-344J7fKzk3Y/T3C9sw1PnnI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/uttxHExd_8U/s1600/bikupa.jpg)

Which company is it? paradise honey?

If I only wanted 2 or 5 hives in the bottom of the garden I would probably use the old wooden hives beeecause they look good and are a Jewel in the garden.
But beecause I want to make a lot of honey and I think that its more fun with more hives I have chosen poly hives.
Most of the new beekeepers have gone over to langsthoth size hives, 3/4 langsthoth(shallow) is popular.
I use 10 frames dadant( double deep) with a queen excluder and 3/4 langstroth as supers. With a solid high bottom with rear ventalation.
wooden frames with wax in the brood chamber and plastic frames in the supers.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 02:28:54 pm


If I only wanted 2 or 5 hives in the bottom of the garden I would probably use the old wooden hives beeecause they look good and are a Jewel in the garden.

But you cannot put modern queens in those little hives. It explodes out and swarms.

In Norway they keep their German Black bees and they favour still old style hives.
Hives made in Russia  http://84922.ru.all.biz/sv/goods_ligg-bikupa_920052 (http://84922.ru.all.biz/sv/goods_ligg-bikupa_920052)
ru home pages

(http://www.ru.all.biz/img/ru/catalog/920052.jpeg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 09, 2012, 02:38:08 pm
.
Polyhives had thinner walls a few years ago.

Look the deep part of the wall (mirror)


(http://sverigesradio.se/diverse/appdata/isidor/images/news_images/2222/2342959_520_292.jpg)


New model, like Paradise Honey,  have thick walls, They are all around 4 cm thick. So inner cover must have better insulation.
I have measured the surface temperatures of various models and they have big differencies.

The model is for professional beekeeping. It is a production unit, and not a beauty in garden.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IWQGeJ-iu6U/Tz1pJaWiTkI/AAAAAAAABIY/2f8Et4DcfdE/s1600/BeeBox00.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 09, 2012, 02:54:47 pm
.
....
The model is for professional beekeeping. It is a production unit, and not a beauty in garden.


(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-IWQGeJ-iu6U/Tz1pJaWiTkI/AAAAAAAABIY/2f8Et4DcfdE/s1600/BeeBox00.jpg)
I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 09, 2012, 04:49:18 pm
Polyhives had thinner walls a few years ago.
The model is for professional beekeeping. It is a production unit, and not a beauty in garden

I don't like the ones that you have to glue together, but they are cheaper to ship.

With a few licks of paint one can turn ugly boxes into something nice, same color as your house, natural color so the blend in to the background nature.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 09, 2012, 08:48:00 pm
So what is the entrance and venting configuration on those paradise honey hives?  Based on the photo it appears they are using a mid entrance and no top vents?  That looks very similar to the homemade design I’ve been using.  It has worked wonderfully so far for me.  My design also has walls that are approx 4cm thick.  As I’ve suggested earlier, it appears to me that a hive with only 20 to 25mm thick poly walls can act like a freezer if you’re not careful. ;)  More insulation is good.  :)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Hives/jumbohiveinNov.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 10, 2012, 08:35:44 am
So what is the entrance and venting configuration on those paradise honey hives?  Based on the photo it appears they are using a mid entrance and no top vents?  That looks very similar to the homemade design I’ve been using.  It has worked wonderfully so far for me.  My design also has walls that are approx 4cm thick.  As I’ve suggested earlier, it appears to me that a hive with only 20 to 25mm thick poly walls can act like a freezer if you’re not careful. ;)  More insulation is good.  :)

(http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/j365/MichiganBee/Extra%20Deep%20Hives/jumbohiveinNov.jpg)

The system is normally bottom entrance only when imported into the UK. the manufacturer make the pieces that each market required
http://www.paradisehoney.fi/EN/Beekeeping_products/Polystyrene_Hives/BeeBox_Series_Manual (http://www.paradisehoney.fi/EN/Beekeeping_products/Polystyrene_Hives/BeeBox_Series_Manual)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 10, 2012, 11:22:15 am
Derekm, thanks for the website link.  Isn’t it very interesting that the Finnish professionals are moving in the same direction as you and I with our super insulated poly designs.  It is also very interesting that they are resurrecting the Dadant jumbo sized brood box.  That is also something I have found works very well.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 11, 2012, 01:19:14 am
I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.

So Derek, how did those Finnish hives compare to your homemade super hive in your thermal measurements?

Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?

I kind of like the idea of an open screen on the bottom in the winter IF I had snow is piled up around the bottom protecting it from drafts.  I did have 1 nuc die off last week that had an open screen bottom and no snow protection.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 11, 2012, 08:58:06 am
Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?quote]

If you paint the it make it harder for ants to burrow in the poly

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 11, 2012, 09:02:50 am
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B

You could do it on a rainy day.

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on December 11, 2012, 09:34:33 am
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B

I asked my colleagues this question .
how Bees behave in the north when it is light 24 hours a day?Do they rest or is it full speed all the time and if so, how does it affect the Bees and harvest.?

"The bees in the north are controlled by the temperature more than the light, if it gets a little cool in the evening they go home.
But it may be that they draw virtually around the clock when it's warm nights, and it is wonderful.

What's more in the north there is a much more diverse flora than in the south, so there are always plants from early spring to late autumn."

"they fly as long as it's hot and there's something in it .... During the raspberries flow they fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight ..."
"Which should mean that sugars are higher in plants in the north compared to the south of Sweden."

mvh edward  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 11, 2012, 01:04:21 pm
I own some of those, kept bees in them over winter and and have performed thermal measurements on them.

So Derek, how did those Finnish hives compare to your homemade super hive in your thermal measurements?

Does their polystyrene have a tough enough surface to prevent wax moths and ants from boring through them?

I kind of like the idea of an open screen on the bottom in the winter IF I had snow is piled up around the bottom protecting it from drafts.  I did have 1 nuc die off last week that had an open screen bottom and no snow protection.

My hives are substantially better, I hope to publish the figures in paper soon.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 11, 2012, 07:23:44 pm
Be sure to let us know where to find your paper when you get in published! X:X X:X X:X  It sounds like it will be very interesting.  I checked my various designs again today and based upon my crude measurements and visual observations, your “heat bubble” concept/design is much warmer than the other designs I’m experimenting with.  Our average temp has been below 0C for some time now and most of the hives have well defined clusters at this point; except for the heat bubble ones.  They really aren’t in cluster yet IF they are insulated well enough (38mm) and IF the volume of the hive isn’t bigger than the bees. 

The only real concern I see at this point is condensation.  I may try to post some photos later tonight if time permits.  There isn’t a drop of condensation on my hives with a small top entrance whereas there is very noticeable condensation in the heat bubble designs.  The bees don’t appear to be licking it up either, but I’m not watching them 24-7.  :-D
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: Finski on December 12, 2012, 04:02:56 am
yea yea ---but how do they move bees if the sun always shines??? RDY-B

I asked my colleagues this question .
how Bees behave in the north when it is light 24 hours a day?Do they rest or is it full speed all the time and if so, how does it affect the Bees and harvest.?

"The bees in the north are controlled by the temperature more than the light, if it gets a little cool in the evening they go home.
But it may be that they draw virtually around the clock when it's warm nights, and it is wonderful.

What's more in the north there is a much more diverse flora than in the south, so there are always plants from early spring to late autumn."

"they fly as long as it's hot and there's something in it .... During the raspberries flow they fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight ..."
"Which should mean that sugars are higher in plants in the north compared to the south of Sweden."

mvh edward  :-P

It depends how you read the text of Edward.

I phoned to a beekeeper on Arctic Circle and he said that bee may fly 24 hours in a day but it is extremely rare.
Last summer was so cold that hives did not get Honey at all. They stopped brooding.

My brother kept hives 20 years in Sweden Piteå. The North is not a paradise to bees.

Here is some or our beekeepers on map. The most south point is 60 degree latitude and the north most is on Polar Circle 66 degree.


http://www.hunajantuottajat.fi/ (http://www.hunajantuottajat.fi/)


Vegetation is not more diverge in North. It is sure. I do not blame guys behind the back of God , if even strawberries there produce honey.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

One psychiatrist told in TV that in Lapplan North folks are such that they overstate their sayings, and if someone gets a 2 meter long pike (fish) , let it be and don't go to measure it.

"fly 22 of 24 hours a really impressive sight"  I wonder why, but life in north is not easy.

.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 12, 2012, 07:24:19 am
nice and warm

(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0266.jpg)
(http://i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm242/derekm_2008_photo/IMAG0265.jpg)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 12, 2012, 10:10:26 am
Hmmmm….. I thought somebody said it doesn’t get cold in the UK….

Are those 2 hives on the left side of the photo the commercial hives from Finland?  I gotta say, that looks like more volume than I would want to winter in with 40mm thick poly hives.  I think your hive is a more appropriate volume.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on December 12, 2012, 11:54:45 am
Hmmmm….. I thought somebody said it doesn’t get cold in the UK….

Are those 2 hives on the left side of the photo the commercial hives from Finland?  I gotta say, that looks like more volume than I would want to winter in with 40mm thick poly hives.  I think your hive is a more appropriate volume.

no they are my hives (earlier revs) with supers and feed ekes (shims).  I'm not worried about brood in the super.  remember british nationals so not that big.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on December 12, 2012, 01:37:15 pm
Looks like some nice hoar frost.  We get some beautiful photos of it here a few times each winter.

I winter my big hives in single poly boxes now instead of multiple stories.  I just don’t see the need for multiple stories since they do great in singles.  I do have some double decker nucs this winter, but I’m now leery of that design even for nucs. 

Are any of your hives instrumented this winter?  If so, what type of system do you have?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 02, 2014, 01:06:07 am
As I know you are an innovative beekeeper, bluebee.
Do you have any new designs with poly hives ? Any pictures that you can share with us?
I use foam salmon boxes, keep my nucs in them. They seems very happy
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 03, 2014, 06:52:58 am
You know, I miss Finski  :-D
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 03, 2014, 06:57:33 am
Well, I tend to get ridiculed every time I talk about my polystyrene hives so I don’t bother to reply too often.  I have tried many different insulated designs in real life and it’s pretty clear what works well and what doesn’t; at least in my cold continental climate.  My goal is to maximize the odds of my bees coming through winter healthy; not trying to trap every milliwatt of heat.  It would be nice if one could achieve both things at the same time, but in my experiments that didn’t work out.

I have found over and over again that a bottom only entrance is a prescription for disaster in a foam hive.  Might not always fail, but it turns the design into a high maintenance problem for many many reasons.  Would a bottom only entrance maximize heat retention; obviously yes.  But you risk so many other problems when trying to obsess on just the heat retention aspect of bee health.   Many home owners discovered unforeseen problems when they tried to super insulate their own homes.  There’s a point at which things can become unhealthy.  A healthy home is more than one dimension. 

I prefer only a small top entrance in the winter.  That entrance is closed more as the winter sets in, summer bees die off, and it gets colder.  By Christmas, we’re down to about 9mm x 100mm; depending upon the size of the hive.  Bottom only designs will work too, but there are just more problems with them.

In Michigan, I have found that 40mm thick polystyrene seems to work best.  I’ve got a lot (about 50) 25mm thick nucs that do pretty good most winters, but a really cold spell is too much for them.  The 40mm thick foam handles as much cold as we get in Michigan and it’s easier to work with than the 50mm (2inch) stuff.   

There’s various creative ways to make foam hives as a DIYer; but they can be time consuming to build.  I use polystyrene sheets (4’x8’) sold in the big box stores for home insulation.  Here it is commonly sold up to 50mm thick.  We can buy polyiso insulation boards up to 3.5” from building supply companies, but that’s overkill here.  I would go with electric heat before I would go with 3”+ thick stock.  Thick mating surfaces and thermal time constants bring their own set of problems.

I have tried numerous boxes made of pure foam.  The bees WILL eventually chew through such boxes unless they are faced with a durable interior surface.  Paint is not sufficient!   I’ve tried it.   Most processed boards (like plywood) will mold up if not painted or polyed.  Hardboard works well.

May try to link in some more photos when I’m not so busy.  I’m sure there are some on here somewhere. 
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on October 03, 2014, 06:19:28 pm
....

I have found over and over again that a bottom only entrance is a prescription for disaster in a foam hive.  Might not always fail, but it turns the design into a high maintenance problem for many many reasons.  Would a bottom only entrance maximize heat retention; obviously yes.  But you risk so many other problems when trying to obsess on just the heat retention aspect of bee health.   Many home owners discovered unforeseen problems when they tried to super insulate their own homes.  There’s a point at which things can become unhealthy.  A healthy home is more than one dimension. 
....

What problems are those?
I dont have any problems
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 03, 2014, 08:50:32 pm
Bluebee, I always pay close attention on what you share with us regarding foam boxes, heating etc.
Let me share what I experince with foam boxes and bees.
 I use big salmon boxes. They are free and I can obtain tens of them. I did not paint them. I use them as nuc boxes. Some started chewing them some not. I guess if population is high then they start chewing. I thought one reason is  that sun light goes through box and inside of the hive is not realy dark. Since you say rven if painted still they chew, then we can eliminate this.
In my case then they chew, they chew from the front up, close to lid area. Is this something you also have experienced?
as I said I use used foam boxes and some has clear tape on them around.  When they chew from inside to outside, they could not chew that clear tape. Do you think if I apply clear tape on all inside surfaces,  can I eliminate this problem?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 03, 2014, 11:14:52 pm
You know, I miss Finski  :-D

I read almost all of Finski s post. I wish he came back !
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2014, 02:42:14 am
Bluebee, I always pay close attention on what you share with us regarding foam boxes, heating etc.
Let me share what I experince with foam boxes and bees.
 I use big salmon boxes. They are free and I can obtain tens of them. I did not paint them. I use them as nuc boxes. Some started chewing them some not. I guess if population is high then they start chewing. I thought one reason is  that sun light goes through box and inside of the hive is not realy dark. Since you say rven if painted still they chew, then we can eliminate this.
In my case then they chew, they chew from the front up, close to lid area. Is this something you also have experienced?
as I said I use used foam boxes and some has clear tape on them around.  When they chew from inside to outside, they could not chew that clear tape. Do you think if I apply clear tape on all inside surfaces,  can I eliminate this prob lem?
They will chew through duct tape. However aluminium foil tape stops them, even the thinnest kind
But it's expensive . Try wallpaper painted with gloss paint. They don't chew correx / corrodex 2mm black correx is very cheap and does not rot. Line your boxes with that?
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 04, 2014, 04:47:52 am
Yeah, it’s when the population gets high that they start trying to chew the foam.  I’ve got some pure foam boxes where they chewed out half a wall of the foam and built comb right on the foam!  I use plastic sheets (painters drop cloth stuff) for my inner covers and I didn’t think they could chew through that, but low and behold, they have chewed through the 3.5mil thick stuff in spots.  I have moved to 6mils now and haven’t had that problem again.  My guess is the clear tape, or contact paper, has a good chance of preventing the chewing if you can keep it from falling off the foam.  The first areas they’ll chew are around the entrance.  As the population gets bigger, evidently they would like a bigger entrance and they’ll chew to make it bigger.  They also like to chew the top covers which is why I went to a plastic sheet for an inner cover.  Works well because you can peak in on the bees and it prevents them from gluing the foam top down. 

Actually a much bigger problem with unfaced foam is the wax moths.  If/when they take over a box, they'll completely destroy the foam because they can burrow through just about anything.  Foam to them is like a hot knife to butter. :(  They'll burrow and tunnel all through the box if it isn't cladded with something tough on the interior side.  I've gone with 1/8" hardboard cladding to stop the moths and chewing.  It's cheap, dependable, glues easily to foam, sticks reliably, not a thermal bridge, and holds up to the moisture fine.  I've even tried the hardboard for exterior cladding, but the boxes tend to get a little bulky and way more time consuming to build.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 04, 2014, 11:39:50 pm
Should I increase the thickness of my boxes ? They are 30mm, I can double the thickness
my climate zone is 6b
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 05, 2014, 03:49:31 am
I’ve lived in Metro Boston (Westboro) and your winters are milder than we have in Michigan.  The bees also get more chances for cleansing flights out there when the wind comes in from the ocean, or up the coast.  I would stick with your 30mm boxes for now and see how they do.  Really thick boxes bring their own set of problems.  Like lots of bees getting squished due to the thick mating surfaces.  Those flatted bees eventually build up and all of a sudden your “heat bubble” is leaking heat through all the mating surfaces. :-D

I've got some older boxes that are 50mm (2") thick and they work fine, but its just over kill in zone 5a (mid Mich).  IMO 40mm (1.5") is optimal for my climate, but other boxes will work too; even pure wood!  
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on October 05, 2014, 10:21:40 am
Here is a link to instructions for making insulated wooden boxes that have been used successfully for many years i Sweden.
http://ribiof.com/borje/Bibo/Lada13.html (http://ribiof.com/borje/Bibo/Lada13.html)
There are Pictures so you get the idea.

Here every one ventilates their hives with bottom ventilation through the Winter successfully, no one would Think of roof ventilation under the Winter.

I will post a few types of bottom ventilating solutions later.

E  :-P
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 06, 2014, 03:30:54 am
Edward, maybe a road trip is in order to check up on our pal Finski?  I wonder if he had his electric hive heaters on a GFCI circuit. :)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on October 06, 2014, 04:03:07 pm
Should I increase the thickness of my boxes ? They are 30mm, I can double the thickness
my climate zone is 6b

75mm  Polystyrene= 50mm PIR is a good target. but no top vent..
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: edward on October 06, 2014, 04:31:09 pm
Since a few years back it is a standard i Sweden, probably in the whole European Union in new houses, and all new wirering.
A better safer way to go is 12 -24 or36 volts DC.

I have an old Swedish beekeeping store catalog advertisement from the 1920 Selling in the new modern way of beekeeping with the new electricity  :thunder:

I'll have a dig and try to find it and see what kind of strength the used and type AC-DC

A road trip takes to long to Finland and crosses the Arctic circle twice, the ferryboats with TAXFREE is a better idea, took one in early summer but only half way to ÅLAND, Island and archipelagos half the way to Finland in the middle of the Baltic sea. Great food, couldn't bee botherd to carry any liquid taxfree so my head didn't heart the next day,  no :cheer: no Just chatted up the Girls insted :catchchick: :rainbowflower:

My beekeeping mentor in Sweden is of Finish decent,  :brian:

This year was payback time  :whip: :chop: He threw his back out and couldn't lift any supers, and was a littel help with the bee blower, also he lost his footing and fell in a ditch and half in the middle of the road, on top of his bad back, For a few minutes I though he was dead  :needhelp: i left him there for 15 minute so he could get his breath and bearings back Before dragging him up.

An extra harvest of 10 metric tones of honey.  :chop: :whip: :chop:

This force the issue of stream lining the operation and the way we work, to work less and smarter.

Will post later in the Winter what measures and new work routines were implemented.


E  :-P

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 06, 2014, 09:38:45 pm
Bluebee,  I use big salmon foam boxes and the way I can increase the thickness is to glue one extra lid to the sides. In this way, my lid has still the same mating surface. I have some extra lids to glue on side. Can I benefit from extra lids glued on sides in my location  or that extra work not needed?
I will definitely glue one extra lid on top of every lids to be able to minimize the heat escape from to top for sure
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: OPAVP on October 06, 2014, 11:03:49 pm
Hi Bee friends,
I have made a bunch of boxes out of 2 " styrofoam.  I have used a few this summer and the bees did fine.
If some of you guys can tell me how I can add a picture or two,I'll try and show you how I did it.

I am going to winter 4 hives in the foam boxes.
Hope to hear from you.
Cor Van Pelt.
Alberta.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 07, 2014, 03:45:35 am
This year was payback time  :whip: :chop: He threw his back out and couldn't lift any supers, and was a littel help with the bee blower, also he lost his footing and fell in a ditch and half in the middle of the road, on top of his bad back, For a few minutes I though he was dead  :needhelp: i left him there for 15 minute so he could get his breath and bearings back Before dragging him up.

I hear those fins are pretty though cookies!  Who knew bee keeping could be so dangerous  :-D

With respect to AC vs DC, it's Tesla vs Edison all over again.  DC is safer, but you just can't/couldn't transfer it long distances without excessive ohmic heating losses.  My heaters themselves run off low voltage AC (16VAC), but I ended up moving the transformer out to the hives due to the (ohmic) voltage drop over my wires to the nucs.  So I've still got 120VAC out to the nucs to be cautious of, but it is code here to have exterior circuits on a GFCI breaker.  Haven't fried any rabbits yet, but they do tend to nibble on the cords.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: BlueBee on October 07, 2014, 04:04:58 am
Bluebee,  I use big salmon foam boxes and the way I can increase the thickness is to glue one extra lid to the sides. In this way, my lid has still the same mating surface. I have some extra lids to glue on side. Can I benefit from extra lids glued on sides in my location  or that extra work not needed?
I will definitely glue one extra lid on top of every lids to be able to minimize the heat escape from to top for sure

I think I debated this with Finski a time or two about the importance of the bees to insulation ratio and that plays a part in my advice. 

Finski seemed to view insulation as always providing a positive thing for wintering the bees, no matter what.  That is not my view, or experience.  My view is that insulation is only a positive force if you have a lot of bees in the box to begin with.  Lots of bees in a tight box, make a modest amount of heat which is slowed from escaping the box due to insulation.  That has the effect of raising the temperature inside the box; a good thing. 

However if you don’t have very many bees in an insulated box, then the box can act like a refrigerator/cooler.  That’s what insulation does; it keeps warm things warm and cool things cool.  If an insulated box has too few bees, the heat they generate isn’t going to do diddly squat unless you up the insulation levels to what Derekm recommend.  My opinion is you don't want to oversize your boxes in the winter!   

My hives are bursting with bees and 40mm of foam is more than enough to keep them above 60F all winter long and I’m in zone 5a.  So IMO, if you’ve got strong hives in those 30mm salmon boxes, I wouldn’t worry about putting more insulation on the sides; just the top.  Putting more on the tops should direct condensation to occur on the sides.

Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: derekm on October 08, 2014, 10:51:27 am
You've tangled up and confused  a lot of issues there.
These are separate independent terms in the conduction rate equation (q=-kA.dT/dx) and shouldn't be mixed up.



1) heat loss from any container is reduced if the  insuation levels and/or sealing is improved.
2) A container with less surface area  (i.e. a  closer fit to its contents) loses less heat
3) The heat transfer is proportional to temperature difference.

An insulated box can't act as a net cooler if the average temperature difference is positive.
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: jayj200 on October 14, 2014, 12:46:39 pm
Hi Bee friends,
I have made a bunch of boxes out of 2 " styrofoam.  I have used a few this summer and the bees did fine.
If some of you guys can tell me how I can add a picture or two,I'll try and show you how I did it.

I am going to winter 4 hives in the foam boxes.
Hope to hear from you.
Cor Van Pelt.
Alberta.

http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,37591.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,37591.0.html)
Title: Re: Derekm's Hive
Post by: ScituateMA on October 14, 2014, 03:08:03 pm

(http://s7.postimg.org/jtojnn987/20141009_134343.jpg) (http://postimg.org/image/jtojnn987/)

Here is my nuc boxes made out of modified salmon boxes. I glued an extra lid to minimize thee heat lost from the top.
I also glued an extra lid to both  sides. The thickness of box is like 32 mm and after glueing extra lids to the sides, sides are like 70mm. I guess my nucs are well protected from new englands cold winter.
I was thinking to use the bottom as a feeder but im not sure about that if it would cause a lot of bees drowning