Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => DISEASE & PEST CONTROL => Topic started by: Mason on July 28, 2009, 01:10:37 pm

Title: Mite treatment options
Post by: Mason on July 28, 2009, 01:10:37 pm
It was recommended to me by an experienced bee keeper in my area that I should treat for mites this time of year.  He offered these treatments as options and was wondering what experience you have with each of these products or maybe some other options.  What are the advantages and disadvantages to these treatments?

10-Pk Apiguard         
Mite AwayII   10-pk                  
Tylan & 1# pwd Sugar                 
.5g Fumagillan
16oz Honey B Healthy


I would prefer to remain as chemical free as possible on the off chance I may get a little honey.

   
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 28, 2009, 02:02:55 pm
i like the apiguard.  in my area, temps are a consideration and the only drawback to using it.  in your area, maybe not a problem? 

do you need to treat for mites?  if it's a first year hive from a package, or a swarm, your mite count is probably not that high.  i am not opposed to treating, but i don't treat unless i need to.  most of the time, powdered sugar keeps them knocked down to a manageable level for me. 

i would do a mite count before deciding if you even need to treat.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: John Schwartz on July 28, 2009, 02:05:37 pm
i would do a mite count before deciding if you even need to treat.

What threshold prompts you to treat when you do a count?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 28, 2009, 02:54:52 pm
this won't be very helpful.  sorry.

i check when i remember, especially late may and June.  then i try to remember to do a check again about now...i have not yet because of the heat.  i have to start treating by mid august or so if i'm going to do it.  you are a few hundred ft lower and can probably put off treatment until very end of august or into September.

what prompts me to treat?  when i pull the board out and my reaction is "oh crap".  i had an 'oh crap' moment earlier with a hive, but the PS a couple of times and the fact that they are very good at their own control, seems to have taken care of them. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Mason on July 28, 2009, 03:50:34 pm
The advice came from a commercial bee keeper who is very gracious to pass along information.  His needs and are vastly different than for my (2) lonely hives.  Where the information I get from him is useful it pays to get other perspectives from different beekeepers.

I like the powdered sugar idea.  How do I do it?  Just put it in a sifter and sprinkle it into the top of the hive?  Do I need the Tylan and what is "#1" powdered sugar?

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: danno on July 28, 2009, 04:28:23 pm
a commercial beek doesn't have the time to check for mites so most if not all just treat twice a year.  With only 2 you have that option.   To use the powdered sugar you need screen bottom boards and sift a couple of cups between the top bars.  Tylan is for foulbrood and hopefully you wont need it.  Again many commercial guys just treat for it twice a year.  Not alot use Tylan though most still use Terramycin as tylan can  show up in honey.  The #1 powdered sugar I assume what he ment was the tylan or terramycin are mixed with it to get the bee's to take it.  The .5g Fumagillan is for Nosema.  The .5g is just the bottle size.  This is enough for 5 spring colonies or 2.5 fall colonies.  Some use it, some would never touch the stuff.  What all this boils down to is if you have new colonies that you gave new frames and let them draw them out.  They live in new woodware and you are not near any old hives, you shouldn't need most of this stuff.  
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 28, 2009, 04:57:48 pm
another way to do the PS is to put an old window screen over the hive and brush the sugar through.  then you can sweep off the tops of the frames and you are done.  if you have a spacer frame, put it on top of the hive and the screen over it. 

look at the ingredients in the honey b healthy.  as i recall, it has stuff like lemongrass oil in it.  probably cheaper to buy  your own essential oils and mix something up.  i put a little lemongrass oil in my sugar syrup.  it seems to retard the mold a bit.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Brian D. Bray on July 29, 2009, 02:12:28 am
Inducing a brood dearth will control the mites just as well as any chemicals and doesn't have the potential of adversely harming the bees.
2 ways to do it: locate and isolate the queen in a push in cage or do a walk away split.  A 2-4 weel brood dearth can make a major impact on mite load.  You can always recombine if desired.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Robo on July 29, 2009, 07:30:32 am
Also keep in mind the stress you put on a hive by dumping powdered sugar throughout it.   Especially if you do it every 2 weeks like recommended.  The study results I have read have been mixed for the effectiveness of PS shakes. Personally, I would use 1 or 2 if needed, or better yet, oxalic acid.

I would not treat with anything unless there is a need,  and I would never use 3 & 4.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 29, 2009, 10:40:21 am
when i use the PS i only do it once or twice.  i forget, or the weather changes.  i have read those studies that are posted here.  no argument that the PS sugar use is questionable for long term control.  i do think that it give the hive a short term chance to get ahead of the problem.  it is likely that not all hives are able to do that. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Michael Bush on July 30, 2009, 10:06:06 am
>10-Pk Apiguard         

Will drive the bees out, kill a lot of microorganisms that need to be there and kill some of the mites.  Will interfere with pheromones and smells in the hive that the bees use to stay organized.

>Mite AwayII   10-pk                 

Will drive the bees out, will kill a lot of microorganisms by shifting the pH dramatically and will kill some of the mites.  Will mess with smells in the hive.

>Tylan & 1# pwd Sugar                 

Will destroy all microorganisms needed for the fermentation and digestion of pollen, upset the microbial balance completely and is only approved for use in AFB infested hives that have shown Terramycin resistance.   Any other use is a violation of the law.

>.5g Fumagillan

Will kill Nosema and other needed fungi and yeasts in the hive.  This also causes birth defects and is illegal in most of the civilized world (The European Union, Australia etc.)

>16oz Honey B Healthy

Is antimicrobial.  Will kill off a lot of microbes and upset the pheromones of the hive.

Wonderful stuff.

http://www.bushfarms.com/beesfoursimplesteps.htm
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 30, 2009, 10:43:49 pm
Somewhere recently I saw a video of hives being treated with food grade mineral oil applied with what looked like a thermal fogger.  Apparently the idea is that it induces grooming / hygienic behavior and the bees just remove the mites.  I've heard mineral oil mentioned before somewhere else, but never any details or how to.

Is this a legitimate treatment method?  Does anyone know about, use, or have information about it?

It sounds like it might be harmless to the bees if done correctly, and it seems reasonable that it might work.  Of course I imagine that too much mineral oil could also suffocate or stress the bees.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 30, 2009, 10:54:32 pm
the powdered sugar does the same.  the grooming idea is legit, i think, but more depends on the bees and how good they are at managing the mites.  a knockdown of mites can give the bees the edge if they are good at their own mite control.  if they are not, it's not enough.  in that case, you have to decide on treatment, or letting the hive go. 

i think i have almost gotten to treatment free, but i have been fortunate to pick up some swarms from some true feral hives, and use that stock for queens.  even so, along the way, i have lost my share of hives.  not always to mites, but in a couple, i'm sure the mites played a role.

in one of those hives this year, i found a really high mite count.  i was sure i would have to treat them.  i dusted them with PS twice in a month.  now the mite count is really low.  this hive is going into it's 3rd winter with no treatment.  we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Robo on July 30, 2009, 11:08:46 pm
Somewhere recently I saw a video of hives being treated with food grade mineral oil applied with what looked like a thermal fogger.  Apparently the idea is that it induces grooming / hygienic behavior and the bees just remove the mites.  I've heard mineral oil mentioned before somewhere else, but never any details or how to.

Is this a legitimate treatment method?  Does anyone know about, use, or have information about it?

It sounds like it might be harmless to the bees if done correctly, and it seems reasonable that it might work.  Of course I imagine that too much mineral oil could also suffocate or stress the bees.



Been there, done that. Initially you inverted the mineral oil bottle and put a pipe clear wick for the bees to cross as they entered the hive.  Then there was the drizzling it on the top bars, soaking cord in it, and fogging.    I never had consistent results with mineral oil.  The foggers tend to get clogged and if your not careful, you can turn them into a flame thrower, which isn't good for the bees.  I think fatbeeman still fogs.  I believe it was like 5 seconds into the entrance every 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: iddee on July 30, 2009, 11:46:40 pm
I still have my fogger and will use it if needed. I no longer treat with anything. 2nd year of no treatment.

The fogger is filled with 1 liter fgmo and 50 gram thymol. The fgmo suffocates the mites, but not the bees. The thymol is deadly to adult, exposed mites. Two trigger blasts into the entrance and move on to the next hive. Simple, easy, and about as effective as any thing else I have heard about or tried.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 31, 2009, 12:07:00 am
I still have my fogger and will use it if needed. I no longer treat with anything. 2nd year of no treatment.

The fogger is filled with 1 liter fgmo and 50 gram thymol. The fgmo suffocates the mites, but not the bees. The thymol is deadly to adult, exposed mites. Two trigger blasts into the entrance and move on to the next hive. Simple, easy, and about as effective as any thing else I have heard about or tried.

Is it a regular thermal fogger like you can use to fog for mosquitoes - like I already have?  Is thymol an extract or essential oil of the herb thyme like it sounds like. 

I would prefer to never have to treat, but it's good to have a plan B just in case. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 31, 2009, 12:15:30 am
the powdered sugar does the same.  the grooming idea is legit, i think, but more depends on the bees and how good they are at managing the mites.  a knockdown of mites can give the bees the edge if they are good at their own mite control.  if they are not, it's not enough.  in that case, you have to decide on treatment, or letting the hive go. 

i think i have almost gotten to treatment free, but i have been fortunate to pick up some swarms from some true feral hives, and use that stock for queens.  even so, along the way, i have lost my share of hives.  not always to mites, but in a couple, i'm sure the mites played a role.

in one of those hives this year, i found a really high mite count.  i was sure i would have to treat them.  i dusted them with PS twice in a month.  now the mite count is really low.  this hive is going into it's 3rd winter with no treatment.  we'll see what happens.

I would like to avoid treatments - especially with chemicals, but I'm sure that it's a long way from where I'm at to having a bee yard full of colonies of naturally mite resistant bees.  I think I'm beginning to formulate a strategy of how to get there thanks to all the helpful people here.

I think I need to know about as many options as possible.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 31, 2009, 12:19:37 am
  I never had consistent results with mineral oil.  The foggers tend to get clogged and if your not careful, you can turn them into a flame thrower, which isn't good for the bees....

I can believe that. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Robo on July 31, 2009, 07:02:51 am
Is it a regular thermal fogger like you can use to fog for mosquitoes - like I already have? 

Yes, but depending on what poisons you ahve used in it,  you are probably better off with a spiffy new one.

Quote
I would like to avoid treatments - especially with chemicals, but I'm sure that it's a long way from where I'm at to having a bee yard full of colonies of naturally mite resistant bees.  I think I'm beginning to formulate a strategy of how to get there thanks to all the helpful people here.

We where all at that point at one time.   I struggled for many years trying to find a non-hard chemical approach and ultimately found a one time a year oxalic acid vaporization to be the most effective, consistent, and least time consuming method.  I must admit that Thymol was not added to the FGMO protocol until after I had given up on it.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 31, 2009, 09:20:15 am
We where all at that point at one time.   I struggled for many years trying to find a non-hard chemical approach and ultimately found a one time a year oxalic acid vaporization to be the most effective, consistent, and least time consuming method.  I must admit that Thymol was not added to the FGMO protocol until after I had given up on it.

The subject line of this thread "Mite treatment options" is a great idea.  A list like that which included every thing from miticides to naturally resistant survivor stock, and summer splits - along with a short rundown of things like when, how often, where to get it, and effectiveness would be extremely useful.  I know that some of the things that people do are controversial (like small cell) but just knowing what us being effectively used by other people would be make it a great resource.

Something like this probably already exists somewhere.  Links anyone?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 31, 2009, 11:17:27 am
i don't know if a research link that covers all this stuff.  there are individual links and studies.  one was one recently posted here on PS treatment. 

one other thought....treatment options and methods might also have something to do with where you live.  some of us have total or near total brood breaks in the winter.  others, in warmer climates, do not. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: iddee on July 31, 2009, 12:20:12 pm
I use a Bonide brand fogger. I have never heard of one of them flaring up. The Black Flag and Burgess, I have.
I use thymol crystals. yes, it is from thyme.
I would not use a fogger that had been used for pesticides.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 31, 2009, 01:12:14 pm
i have seen the thymol oil for sale.  where do you find the crystals and how do you calculate dose?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: iddee on July 31, 2009, 02:54:07 pm
The fogger is filled with 1 liter fgmo and 50 gram thymol.
Two trigger blasts into the entrance and move on to the next hive.

My supply dried up. I don't know where you could get it now. I would try google.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on July 31, 2009, 03:00:07 pm
that's how i found the thymol oil.  one of the ebay stores carries it.  i was thinking the oil would be good, but it's stronger and i'd have to figure out a dose and way to administer.  i am leaning toward the OA, but i will not decide anything until i see how they come through this winter.  that will make no treatment for 3 years in established hives.  one got treated this spring, but it was a swarm from last year.  pretty sure it came from the berry field pollination hives and it ended up badly infested.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Hethen57 on July 31, 2009, 08:10:44 pm
What is FMGO?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on July 31, 2009, 10:09:14 pm
What is FMGO?

Food Grade Mineral Oil
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Hethen57 on August 02, 2009, 11:21:52 am
Thanks.  Is that the same type that you can get at a drugstore, or something different?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on August 02, 2009, 11:38:55 am
Thanks.  Is that the same type that you can get at a drugstore, or something different?

I don't know, but probably.  I'm under the impression that usually "food grade" means that the manufacturer jumped through some hoops to get to use the term, but the product is the same as the non FG item. 

I would guess that technically everything  you use (including buckets, strainers, containers, chemicals, cleaners, extractors, lubricants for equipment...) in the production of honey for resale / human consumption is supposed to be FDA or dept of Agriculture approved for food production - food grade.

But that's just idle speculation on my part.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Michael Bush on August 08, 2009, 09:49:01 pm
In the case of mineral oil, it may not be the same.  Oil can be very carefully refined and handled or not.  In the case of the laxative at the drug store it's actually USP which is a higher standard than FG.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Hethen57 on August 09, 2009, 03:07:00 am
So Michael..would you think that the laxative grade would work the same as food grade if you were going to try this method o mite control?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Michael Bush on August 10, 2009, 08:58:12 pm
>So Michael..would you think that the laxative grade would work the same as food grade if you were going to try this method o mite control?

Yes.  It works fine.  But I would want at least a minimum of Food Grade.  USP (the laxitive) will surpass that grade.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: pgayle on September 01, 2009, 10:38:57 am
How many mites is too many?

I assume it depends on lots of factors, not sure how to figure..

For instance my strongest hive has brood in 3 deeps, at least as of 2-3 weeks ago.  I did see one live mite on a worker, and all 5 drone pupae I pulled had 2 mites each.  Crisco board under screened bottom board collected 200 mites over about 40 hours.

I bought thymol (Apiguard packs) but after Michael Bush's post I'm not so sure I want to use it.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Damonh on September 01, 2009, 10:51:03 am
I guess my question is  the same. How many mites are too many.
I did a PS shake on three hives last week and got 13, 7, 10 counts.
  7 = 2.33% infestation
10 = 3.33 % infestation
13 = 4.33 % infestation
If the math is correct.

These hives have survived for 4 years with out any treatments. I think I read somewhere that if the counts are over 5 you need to do some type of treatment.

Damon
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: heaflaw on September 11, 2009, 12:34:40 am
I agree with Michael Bush.  Don't treat.  Aquire genetics that don't treatment for mites or brood diseases either by purchasing queens that have been bred to not need it or develop your own (it's not that difficult to do).  It's a lot less expensive and a lot less work.  Also, by treating you are perpetuating inferior genetics.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on September 11, 2009, 01:55:07 am
until you have all that genetics stuff worked out, if you need to treat, apiguard is a good choice.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: deknow on September 11, 2009, 11:06:36 am

I would like to avoid treatments - especially with chemicals, but I'm sure that it's a long way from where I'm at to having a bee yard full of colonies of naturally mite resistant bees. 

there is one essential step that many who desire as you do, to get off treatments, fail to take.

deciding not to use treatments.

you will never have "a bee yard full of colonies of naturally mite resistant bees" if you treat...you simply are not culling the stock that needs culling.

deknow
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: heaflaw on September 11, 2009, 12:08:52 pm
Deknow,

I agree completely.  You can monitor mites levels & keep great records all you want, but until you take the step of ending treatments, you are preventing bees from doing what nature intended: that is for them to find their own solution to mites & brood diseases.

Heaflaw
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on September 11, 2009, 12:24:32 pm
super idea but it's probably good to have a plan for replacing your bees before you just let them die.  to tell people to 'just quit treating' when they are starting out, may be dooming their hobby and desire.  

having invested 100's of dollars on their new endeavor, it would be sad to have these new folks open their hives in the spring to find them all dead for lack of mite treatment.  the goal should be mite and disease resistant bees, but that is a goal...not a religion

additional thought:  maybe someone can start a thread on how to reach that goal.  things we have done to get mite resistant bees.  things that have not worked, etc.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: deknow on September 11, 2009, 01:03:46 pm
you really don't think hfcs or thyme oil gets in your honey?

i've spoken one on one to several folks who have worked for large commercial migratory operations. they all say the same thing, bees are fed hfcs to make them brood up early, the hfcs gets stored in the comb and is extracted to make room for more brood, and to keep the hive size and weight small for shipping on a semi.  of course this "honey" is worth more as honey than it costs for hfcs to feed the bees, so it is sold as honey.

if there were any desire to keep feed out of honey, it would be dyed before being fed so that it could be seen in the comb or the jar.

wrt thymol, i know one beekeeper that uses no treatments who loaned out some supers to another beekeeper, "organic" and "natural".  the supers came back smelling strongly of thymol.  there are good studies out there that show thymol residues in honey.  to assume these things stay in the broodnest or disapate flys in the face of reality...and assuming that beekeepers don't feed or treat while collecting honey is like assuming that drivers on the road are sober and driving the speed limit.

deknow
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: heaflaw on September 11, 2009, 10:27:03 pm
super idea but it's probably good to have a plan for replacing your bees before you just let them die.  to tell people to 'just quit treating' when they are starting out, may be dooming their hobby and desire.  

having invested 100's of dollars on their new endeavor, it would be sad to have these new folks open their hives in the spring to find them all dead for lack of mite treatment.  the goal should be mite and disease resistant bees, but that is a goal...not a religion

additional thought:  maybe someone can start a thread on how to reach that goal.  things we have done to get mite resistant bees.  things that have not worked, etc.

Excellent points.  But, queens or packages  have already been developed that are mite and brood disease resistant and are available (Varroa Hygene Sensitive, Minnesota Hygenics, New World Carniolans and Russians).  They may cost a little more than the average Italian, but the additional cost is not nearly as much as a year's cost of most beekeeper's treatments.   

Maybe beginners should be encouraged to treat only for the first 2 years and be taught how to look for varroa resistance with the goal of ending treatments ASAP.

Yes experts, teach us how to make our hives naturally healthy enough to not need treatments.  I think most beekeepers love for the natural world makes us want to be responsibly organic.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: deknow on September 12, 2009, 12:50:50 pm
...queens or packages  have already been developed that are mite and brood disease resistant and are available (Varroa Hygene Sensitive, Minnesota Hygenics, New World Carniolans and Russians).  They may cost a little more than the average Italian, but the additional cost is not nearly as much as a year's cost of most beekeeper's treatments. 

it's a nice idea, but ask around.  despite 20+ years of such breeding programs, and despite the spiffy names, most breeders, and near 100% of people who purchase such bees treat.  i know a lot of beekeepers that don't treat.  not a one of them simply bought name brand queens and were able to stop treating.

Quote
Maybe beginners should be encouraged to treat only for the first 2 years and be taught how to look for varroa resistance with the goal of ending treatments ASAP.
this is more of the same error that the breeders are making.  you can count mites.  you can freeze brood and see how fast the bees remove them.    you can weigh hives.  you can do dna analysis to determine what viruses are present.  you can do all of these things, but none of them tell us anything really important.  it would be like a venture capatalist going into a compnay and looking at one or two departments to determine the worth of the company...while not looking at where the company and its products fit into the market, or the actual overall performance of the company.

using these metrics to decide what is a good hive and what is a bad hive is near useless.  what we care about first is survivablity...will the bees survive.  you cannot determine survival by counting mites or freezing brood.  breeding for such traits with the goal of producing a bee that doesn't need treatments is an attempt to micromanage the bees in one or two aspects, and assuming that all the other traits will fall into line.

the only way to measure survivability is to let the bees survive or not.

after we have bees that can take care of themselves (by not breeding from the bees that die), we can then select for production.  all this other stuff is just noise, and an excuse for funding dollars.

the idea that one can gradually get off treatments is flawed in the extreme.  for one, you end up with contaminated equipement and a hive with a damaged microbial ecosystem.

secondly, if you assume that you will lose some bees when you stop treating (in most cases, i think this is a fair assumption), you can do it now and start breeding from the survivors next year, or you can treat for 2 more years, lose the same percentage of hives then when you stop treating, and you are now 2 years behind.

fyi, we also found that after regressing to small cell, mite problems went away completely.  we are running about 50 colonies, and i haven't seen more than 2 mites all season.  our state inpsector can't find mites either.  last year he claimed to see one mite in 20 colonies.  this year, he didn't find any on the 3 colonies he inspected so far.

Quote
Yes experts, teach us how to make our hives naturally healthy enough to not need treatments.  I think most beekeepers love for the natural world makes us want to be responsibly organic.
if you insist on using treatments until bees can be kept without treatments, you are in a catch 22.  you will have to wait for others in your area to do what you are unwilling to do...take some short term losses for long term gains.  if no one is currently doing this in your area, and you are not planning to be the one, you will probably have at least a 5 year wait before you can buy such bees from someone else.

deknow


Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Mason on September 14, 2009, 12:49:36 am
Wow!!!

I love this hobby.  You folks are the best.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: scdw43 on October 01, 2009, 01:02:09 pm
I don't treat with chemicals. If you are treating you will allways have to treat. As long as beekeepers are treating, the drones from those hives are mating with queens from untreated hives. That is slowing the process of the bees adapting to any pest that they are threaten with. My signature says the way I keep bees. Bees have been around a lot longer than we have and probally adapted to a lot of things that we don't know that they have adapted to.  I don't keep russian bees but they are an example of bees that have adapted to mites without treatment.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: heaflaw on October 01, 2009, 11:51:47 pm
Okay, so what is the practical method for ending treatments?  What do we tell other beekeepers to do?
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on October 02, 2009, 09:21:29 am
I've stayed out of this so far because I'm only a lowly first year bee keeper with 2 hives.  But that being the case I have a certain perspective that I imagine lots of other folks share.  If I lose 2 hives this winter I'm out of business.

I agree in principle with the "breed for survivors" philosophy, but if all of your bees die you can't do very much breeding.  Furthermore bees are different than any other livestock in that you can completely change the genetics by simply changing the queens.  Maybe I decide that the Italians that I have now weren't a very good choice genetically - for a relatively small cost and effort I can change to carnies or Russians, or whatever I want (if I can get them).  The old genetics become irrelevant in just a few weeks.  If I have dead colonies in the spring I don't have that option. If I had 4 hives I might be willing to gamble on 75% loss, but with only 2 hives I need to at least get one through the winter.

Furthermore, when you make a black and white "breed for survival" stand - does this mean that you aren't going to do anything that might prop up "weaklings"?  No screened bottom boards, no summer brood breaks or splits that might artificially lower the mite load, no feeding during a dearth because if they can't deal with it then let the weaklings starve?  No management at all that might make them soft? Maybe, but I doubt it.

There is Nothing natural about bee keeping (or any agriculture).  In N. America honey bees are a foreign species, we put them into an artificial environment, give them every advantage we can, and take the fruits of their labour from them - not to mention all of the pests that we have introduced from around the globe. All the while slecting for a gentle temperament.   Nothing natural about it.  If you really want to just let nature take it's course and let only the strong survive then you would have to leave them in Europe, in a hollow tree.

Treating or not isn't a moral position - it's a judgement call that has to be made by the bee keeper based on their best judgement and ability.  a reasonable position for one isn't always a good choice for someone else.  

We all want the same thing - healthy bees that make us a bit of honey.  We would all like to accomplish that without using (or buying) medications and treatments.  But if ideology leaves us nothing but dead bees it's kind of pointless.

It would be very helpful to discuss the requirements for building a treatment free apiary that is likely to survive from year to year so that all of us new folks could work toward that goal.
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: heaflaw on October 02, 2009, 10:36:59 am
David,

For a 1st year beekeeper with 2 hives, you have a very thorough understanding of the issues.

Lawrence
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: scdw43 on October 02, 2009, 01:09:12 pm
Please, do not take offense at what I said I was just stating my opinion. It is a decision that we all have to make and
I have made the decision to not treat.


Michael Bush said it better than I can.

Propping up weak bees

Yes, those with the Scientific philosophy will find that statement offensive. But I know of no better way to say it. Creating a system of keeping bees that is held together by antibiotics and pesticides that perpetuate bees that cannot live without constant intervention, is, in my organic view of beekeeping, counterproductive. We just continue to breed bees who can't live without us. Perhaps some people get some satisfaction of being needed by their bees. I don't know. But I would prefer to have bees who can and do take care of themselves.

Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Kathyp on October 02, 2009, 01:52:05 pm
well said, david.

as for how to get to treatment free, i suppose we all do that differently.

as i was able to collect what i will now call survivor bees, i was able to transition to (so far) treatment free.  i have not used any treatments for 4 years.  i have had hive losses, but i don't think they were from mites.  they were more likely from my own inattention and from nature having her way. 

i don't have a scientific way of doing things.  it's more by feel.  last year i had two hives that were kind of questionable.  i removed those queens and dropped in frames of eggs from my really good hives.  this worked well even though i had to do it a couple of times in one hive due to swallows eating my virgin queen.  the other thing i have done is set aside one hive each year as a booster hive.  it's usually a swarm i have picked up that has not boomed, but the queen does a reasonable job of keeping a couple of frames of brood going all the time.  i use brood from the booster hive to keep numbers up in a hive like the one that took me time to requeen.  those bees will not change the genetics of the hive, but will help the hive do well until i can change the genetics.

i guess i keep my hives like i do my mite counts.  if it doesn't make me swear a blue streak when i open it up, it's all good.   :evil:
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: Scadsobees on October 02, 2009, 01:53:48 pm
David,
I couldn't agree more.  It reminds me of the gloves/no-gloves debates...after 5 years I'm now comfortable going glove free, but it took a while to get there.

With only 2 hives it is simple, easy, safe, and cheap enough just to treat as insurance to protect an investment and beekeeper self-confidence.  Regardless of all the discussion about what various chemicals do to bees and people, they've been demonstrated (when used properly) 1. not to cause any detectable problems to people (and we've got some awefully good detectors!) and 2. save hives.

New Obama-care slogan: "Not propping up weak humans"  :-D
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on October 02, 2009, 05:11:57 pm
Please, do not take offense at what I said I was just stating my opinion. It is a decision that we all have to make and
I have made the decision to not treat.

Not at all.  That probably all sounded more combative than I meant for it to.  I'd like to go treatment free too, but I don't see it as being sustainable until I have more resources.  Good luck.

well said, david.

as for how to get to treatment free, i suppose we all do that differently.

Thanks. No doubt there are a lot of ways to do it, but I wonder if any new bee keeper  has ever (in the last 10 years) successfully gone treatment free from day one?

I couldn't agree more...

Regardless of all the discussion about what various chemicals do to bees and people, they've been demonstrated (when used properly) 1. not to cause any detectable problems to people (and we've got some awefully good detectors!) and 2. save hives.

...(and) live to fight another day. 
Title: Re: Mite treatment options
Post by: David LaFerney on October 02, 2009, 05:25:50 pm
David,

For a 1st year beekeeper with 2 hives, you have a very thorough understanding of the issues.

Lawrence

Thanks.  I know that  I have a lot to learn yet that only experience will teach.