Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: rober on September 17, 2011, 04:46:49 am

Title: top entries & insulation
Post by: rober on September 17, 2011, 04:46:49 am
this is a good time of the year to rehash this. i've been searching these topics here & still have some questions. 1st- if you cut a notch in the outer band of your inner cover is that considered a top entrance? those of you who are using top entrances, what other types of top entrances are y'all using? at my association meeting this week 2 different experienced beekeepers used 2 different methods ( imagine that ) to insulate at the inner covers. one removed the inner cover & replaced it with 1" foam board with a hole in the center. the other used foam board on top of the inner cover & left an open groove in the foam to a notch in the outer band of the inner cover for ventilation. i also remember reading a thread but could not find it again that talked about insulating the hive walls causing condensation. since the bees need fewer stores with warmer hives what is the best way to insulate without turning the hive into a sauna? yet another member at our meeting says she leaves her screened bottom boards open & has had no problems. the winters here in missouri are always a crap-shoot so i hope for the best & prepare for the worst.  i've picked tomatoes as late as december & have seen snow on the ground from november thru easter.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on September 17, 2011, 08:18:35 am
I can only tell you what works for me and mine.  This topic always gets some folks worked up, usually those who've never tried top entrances ;).  I use a notched (bottom/front) inner cover as top entrance on my Langs (but during summer I also leave the 'smallest' opening open for a bottom entrance as well, now closed up for season). 

I also use a vent/feed box (just a converted deep or medium super) over the inner cover which for winter I place 2" rigid insulation inside (lays evenly on rests placed on inside sides).  Under the insulation, right on top of inner cover, I'll place as much dry/damp sugar as will fit.  The 2" insulation covers up the 'screened' vent holes in the vent/feed box. 

Lastly, before wrapping hive I cut the top entrance opening in half w/ a piece of wood, down to 1" wide x 1/4.  I don't insulate the sides , however I do place straw/hay all around and about half way up.  Then when winter kicks in I'll shovel snow right up the top, leaving just the top entrance clear. 

Hope this helps.  Remember; the colder it gets, the tighter the cluster, bees actually consume 'less' not more when 'very' cold.  Only during periodic warm ups are they able to move around and feed at will and if needed, change position of cluster.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 17, 2011, 10:23:29 am
.
I have finger tip size upper entrance in front wall'" upper part.

I cannot understand, why moist respiration air is leaded via inner cover under the rain cover. That makes zero sense.

I have restorative inner cover. It has 10 mm wooden board an 70 mm foam plastic matres. Part of moisture comes through these materials.

.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on September 17, 2011, 10:55:37 am
I must respectfully disagree :).  Having an escape for bee gas via top entrance AND vent/feed box that can be closed and insulated make perfect sense to me.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: mikecva on September 17, 2011, 01:47:53 pm
I use two screws on the bottom of the inter-cover to lift it up 3/8" as a top entrance (this intercover is fliped to close it off in winter) with a 1.5" reduced entrance above the bottom board (this entrance is closed off to the wind when it starts to snow.  -Mike
Title: MY Bees told me no top vents!
Post by: derekm on September 17, 2011, 02:07:56 pm
I can only tell you what works for me and mine.  This topic always gets some folks worked up, usually those who've never tried top entrances ;).  ...

thomas
MY Bees told me
I  personally disagree with top entrances and vents for winter on scientific grounds  but we had some hot days so swapped my roof for one with four  mesh top vents. The weather being weather then turned cold 4c over night .  In the morning  opened the vent and  measured the floor level temperature change with the one of the vents cracked open, it dropped 6C in a minute.
 I left one vent a tiny bit open to try this top vent thing out.

Then the bees told me "NO MORE TOP VENTS" by propolising the vent mesh shut with working parties on each vent.

So I have no choice if the weather is cool -no top vent.. my bees say so and I 'm not going against the democratic will of the bees.

btw. These are not wussy bees but tough Buckfasts who actually venture out when its 4C
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on September 17, 2011, 07:06:24 pm
This is a hotly debated topic like Thomas said.  As with all human designs, there are conflicting goals to balance and compromises to be made.  Rarely is any design perfect in all areas. 

Speaking only for myself, anything biological that I try to keep alive over winter has a top entrance or vent to vent moisture.  Yes, a top vent compromises the thermals to a degree, but it has worked for me.  I winter bees with a top entrance, silk moths with a top vent, and hundreds of Dahlia tubers in a plastic containers with top vents.  It’s not perfect, but my success rate has been very high.

As for the size of my top entrances, they are about what Thomas and Finski reports.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 18, 2011, 02:48:43 am
.
When the hive eates  20 kg food, it produces 8  kg respiration water.
When the  air meets cold enough surface, extra moisture condensates on the coldest place.

It is better lead the moisture out via upper entrance.

If you have a mesh floor, don't use upper entrance open.

In spring upper entrance is not needed for condensation, but it is needed as a door if bees have accustomed to fly through certain spot.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on September 18, 2011, 01:39:00 pm
This is a hotly debated topic like Thomas said.  As with all human designs, there are conflicting goals to balance and compromises to be made.  Rarely is any design perfect in all areas. 

Speaking only for myself, anything biological that I try to keep alive over winter has a top entrance or vent to vent moisture.  Yes, a top vent compromises the thermals to a degree, but it has worked for me.  I winter bees with a top entrance, silk moths with a top vent, and hundreds of Dahlia tubers in a plastic containers with top vents.  It’s not perfect, but my success rate has been very high.

As for the size of my top entrances, they are about what Thomas and Finski reports.

In scientific research (USA) bees when given a choice vote for bottom entrances (vote is literal not metaphorical)... see the book "Honey bee democracy" by Thomas b Seeley They also prefer hives off the ground and entrances between 12 and 30 sq cm... apparently much over 30 sq cm is a deal breaker.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 18, 2011, 02:06:58 pm
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I would not ask bees's opinion. Surely they first vote me get off fo far as pepper grows.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on September 18, 2011, 02:37:21 pm
The bees don’t get to vote in my bee yard :)

Half my hives now have a top entrance and half a bottom.  I really haven’t seen a difference in performance in the summer.  The bottom entrance hives have a lot more bearding though.  That seems like good supporting evidence for derekm's position that a bottom entrance is going to retain more heat.  I don’t refute that fact.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on September 18, 2011, 03:37:34 pm
The bees don’t get to vote in my bee yard :)

Half my hives now have a top entrance and half a bottom.  I really haven’t seen a difference in performance in the summer.  The bottom entrance hives have a lot more bearding though.  That seems like good supporting evidence for derekm's position that a bottom entrance is going to retain more heat.  I don’t refute that fact.

 its the beekeeper who doesnt get to vote in any beeyard unless they can tap dance :)

Read the book its facinating ...
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 19, 2011, 02:13:48 am
.
I have seen a meaning of upper entrances in . When nectar flow is heavy in summer, it is hot and moist inside the hive and bees need to slow down their working. Ventilation is huge.

When the hive is almost 2 metre high, why it should ventilate via one hole in bottom.

Last summer I arranged a second wide opening  in the middle of hive. i put 10 wooden slices between boxes. Ventilaton moves from down to that opening.
The hive got 100 kg rape honey in 2 weeks
I had 7 hives on 30 hectare canola field. The flow was huge..
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on September 19, 2011, 02:33:40 am
Finski, just what is your hive configuration and ventilation system in the summer?

I thought your hives had bottom entrances?  Are you using drill holes in your honey supers for venting or are you using some other type of top venting?

I agree with you, a hive vents much better with a top vent.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 19, 2011, 05:44:04 am
.

In summer

I use 3 bood boxes and no excluder.
Fast bottom.
I keep quite small bottom entrance and 1 wall entrance.

In main flow I keep bottom entrance wide open. It keeps the lowest box too cold and the queen move to second and to third box to lay.
When flow is over, I keep the bottom entrance again small.  The queen return to lay down

when bees have accustomed to the wall entrances, they must keep open on  that  site where bees have accustomed to fly.

Honey supers do not need  to be open hole in normal summer.

I have a hole in every box.  when I change the order of boxes, bees need hole in same place.
In the rain or  in the cold weather they have no time to search for home door when they are in a hurry.

.

 
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on September 19, 2011, 07:45:12 am
Since I've been using both top AND bottom entrances at the same time (only during summer months), I've noticed my bees preference for one or the other depending on time of season and/or flow. 

Spring shows most bees using the top entrances for foraging and the bottom for clean out and removing the dead.  That changes w/ summer flows and is somewhat unpredictable (and unreliable) in that two colonies right next to each other will have differing preferences at the same time, sometimes using the top more, sometimes the bottom more.  I don't have an explanation.

I suppose it may depend on the work the bees are trying to complete at any given time, but in my limited observation, my bees 'seem to prefer' the top entrances better overall, but will use the bottom (for foraging) whenever a flow is on and must appreciate it (if that's possible for a honeybee ;)) as a means to remove trash without having to climb through the nest colony.  Just my observation and opinion.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on September 19, 2011, 03:18:19 pm
.
I have noticed that in many hives, which use much upper entrance, they store much pollen into the comb which is nearest the hole.  wrong place? No. Pollen is in the middle of brood area and young bees have food table very near  to eate pollen.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: rail on September 24, 2011, 08:43:56 pm
Langstroth described in his writings about the importance of ventilation in the hive in cold regions, pages 340 and 341!
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: tefer2 on September 25, 2011, 09:58:18 am
T Beek, we both use the same system on top. How much space between the inner cover and the insulation for placing sugar ? Pictures?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on September 25, 2011, 12:51:51 pm
I use 2" insulation flush to top, placed on rests inside my vent/feed boxes.  The space between depends on the size box.  I use deeps and mediums for vent/feed boxes so the space varies accordingly.  Deeps obviously allow me to put more sugar inside.  I try to allow for at least a 2" air gap between sugar and bottom of insulation, again depending on box size.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: bee-nuts on September 25, 2011, 08:13:13 pm
I prefer a bottom entrance in summer and top in winter.  As winter settles in and it gets very cold my bees should be in the second deep box.  I put a Hive top sugar feeder on colonies.
http://youtu.be/RQ1Gebeo3uE (http://youtu.be/RQ1Gebeo3uE)


 I have my entrance drilled into this so I dont have to have holes in my boxes.  In the far north where it gets really cold insulation on top of hive is very important so condensation does not build up in mass and drip on the bees when a thaw come along.  Having an entrance up near the cluster allows the bees easy access to take a poo flight and if they make it back and into the entrance they are in warmest part of colony right near the cluster so they should be able to crawl back into the cluster if they are chilled.  Last season we got some serious snow storms that buried some of my colonies under snow.  Most of them were just sticking above the snow so the bees still had air flow and an exit.  The other were real easy to remove the snow away from entrance.  If I would have had to remove snow all the way to the bottom it would have been a chore and a never ending one when wind would just keep pilling snow around the hive.

I dont really have a strong opinion of which is best, bottom or top entrance.  I believe both have their pros and cons.  For me it has come down to the fact I use top feeders with an exit on them, and mice have been a serious problem in winter so Im going to cut the bottom entrance completely out of the equation this winter and hope I have 0 damaged combs come spring.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: annette on October 02, 2011, 12:15:54 am
I use the ventilated inner covers from Honey Run Apiaries.


http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/all-season-inner-cover-frame-p-232.html (http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/all-season-inner-cover-frame-p-232.html)

I also keep the SBB open all winter although we get many nights into the 20's and 30's for about 2 months. Not as cold as most of you, but cold enough.

I keep the inner covers insulated (it comes with the insulation) and I do close off a small portion of the top side entrance. I think the entrance notch on the side is a bit too large for winter.

No moisture problems anymore.

Annette
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Stone on October 02, 2011, 10:21:47 am
I've been using a small ventilated super on top of an inner cover all summer - like Annette described, and pictured in her link. One hole is unscreened for a top entrance. Not used too often. I pulled out the slide out on the screened bottom board and left it open all summer. No bearding.

This winter I'm going to put pieces of ceiling tile - aka, Homosote - directly over the frames of the top medium - essentially acting as an inner cover.  Function is to absorb moisture.  Directly on top of this - surface to surface - goes some foam insulation - just like in Annette's link. A center oval hole matching an inner cover goes through all of these. Then goes the ventilated super with one hole opened for a top entrance. (Would the bees actually used this in a pinch??) Then the outer cover.

I'm thinking of notching the ceiling tile for a little upper entrance too.

What do you think?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: CapnChkn on October 02, 2011, 02:21:52 pm
Wouldn't the material absorbing water detract from it's insulative ability?  The main reason for insulating the ceiling is to keep the humidity from condensing and dripping back down on the bees.  Dry air conducts heat less efficiently than moisture laden air.

Water vapor is lighter than plain air.  It's specific gravity is actually .62 (http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/specific-gravities-gases-d_334.html), meaning, roughly, it's 38% less dense than air and in a still environment would rise to the top of the pile.  You would want to provide a little hole for that vapor to escape, not too large so as to keep drafts down and provide a top entrance, and insulate the inner cover.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 02, 2011, 02:50:30 pm

I've been using a small ventilated super on top of an inner cover all summer -


 like Annette described, and pictured in her link. One hole is unscreened for a top entrance. Not used too often. I pulled out the slide out on the screened bottom board and left it open all summer. No bearding.

This winter I'm going to put pieces of ceiling tile - aka, Homosote - directly over the frames of the top medium - essentially acting as an inner cover.  Function is to absorb moisture.  Directly on top of this - surface to surface - goes some foam insulation - just like in Annette's link. A center oval hole matching an inner cover goes through all of these. Then goes the ventilated super with one hole opened for a top entrance. (Would the bees actually used this in a pinch??) Then the outer cover.

I'm thinking of notching the ceiling tile for a little upper entrance too.

What do you think?

if the colony uses 30 kg winter food, it generates 20 litres water.
Bees use oxygen and they must get rid off carbondiokside.

That is ventilation.

 Ventilation happening needs no small supers on the hive. Make a 15 mm diameter hole into front wall, and it is there.

No material can catch 20 litre water. Crystall sugar on newspaperer works either.

DON'T LEAD THE RESPIRATION AIR ON THE TOP OF HIVE. It does nothing there.


The hole in the middle of inner cover is meant to be a feeding hole.
It is totally the worst place for ventilation.




 
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 02, 2011, 10:45:12 pm
Quote
No material can catch 20 litre water. Crystall sugar on newspaperer works either.
Actually there are materials you can buy that will absorb that much water.  They’re called water absorbing polymer crystals.  They’re used in disposable diapers and potting soil.  It is said that 1 pound of this stuff will hold 50 gallons of water!   http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/geology-terms/question581.htm (http://science.howstuffworks.com/dictionary/geology-terms/question581.htm)

However, who wants to store 50 gallons of water above their bees!  I would skip the water sponges and just vent the water vapor to the outside like Finski does.  Water is good for aquarium fishes, not bees.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: annette on October 03, 2011, 03:58:56 pm
Hi Stone

Just thinking about those tiles you would be placing directly on top of the medium super. Wouldn't that compromise the bee space on that super??

Annette
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 03, 2011, 05:39:37 pm
Hi Stone

Just thinking about those tiles you would be placing directly on top of the medium super. Wouldn't that compromise the bee space on that super??

Annette

then remerber to say hokkuspokkus or simsalabim
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 03, 2011, 06:59:10 pm
 :mrgreen: :-Here's a way to rthink about this. Bees have a power budget to use to heat or dehumidify the hive. A top vent commits 100% to dehumidify unless you do something very sophisticated.  A hole part way down commits less, but does it dehumidify effectively? Are there any alternatives to providing dehumidification with controlled heat budget. How about an insulated roof with a nail sealed into it? This creates a localized cold spot. Condensation forms in a controlled place and the heat budget can be calculated from the conductivity and diameter
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: yockey5 on October 03, 2011, 07:51:24 pm
:mrgreen: :-Here's a way to rthink about this. Bees have a power budget to use to heat or dehumidify the hive. A top vent commits 100% to dehumidify unless you do something very sophisticated.  A hole part way down commits less, but does it dehumidify effectively? Are there any alternatives to providing dehumidification with controlled heat budget. How about an insulated roof with a nail sealed into it? This creates a localized cold spot. Condensation forms in a controlled place and the heat budget can be calculated from the conductivity and diameter


Huh?????
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 04, 2011, 01:54:09 am
There’s an outfit in New England (I believe) that has patented and is selling a bee hive condensation system kind of like Derekm is suggesting.  Somebody posted the link on here before but I can’t recall the website address.  

The premise for their invention seemed to be the old proverb that ‘cold doesn’t kill bees, but moisture does’.

Their solution to prevent moisture problems was a curved aluminum inner roof.  Kind of like a half dome built into a super body.  Aluminum being a very good conductor of heat was allowed to be chilled by the outside air.  When moisture rises from the bees, it hits the cold AL inner cover, condenses and rolls down the sides of the AL where it is funneled into tubes and exhausted outside the hive.

Their hives were not insulated.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 02:12:23 am
:mrgreen: :-Here's a way to rthink about this. Bees have a power budget to use to heat or dehumidify the hive. A top vent commits 100% to dehumidify unless you do something very sophisticated.  A hole part way down commits less, but does it dehumidify effectively? Are there any alternatives to providing dehumidification with controlled heat budget. How about an insulated roof with a nail sealed into it? This creates a localized cold spot. Condensation forms in a controlled place and the heat budget can be calculated from the conductivity and diameter

too fine to be true.

In practice bees survive over winter. It is not so sophisticated thing.

With solid bottom upper entrance is very usefull to lead moist air out.

- when weather is cold enough, moisture condensates on cold cold surfaces.

- in wooden hive part of moisture goes into the wall and move out though the wood.

- in plastic hives moisture condensates on walls and drills to the bottom. That is why a plastic hive needs better insulation than walls that condensation does not happen in upper cover.

- use slanting bottom or arrange hive to slanting position that water drills out of hive.

- in frost weather water freezes on bottom and melts when temp is several degrees  above freezing point. It means that under snow ice hardly melts.

- when temp is -20C, a lot of water vapour forms ice crystals like snow inside the hive. It melts and driples down when it becomes warm. Part of water goes into cells.

-when temp is -20C, ice crystalls stuck the upper entrance and condensation happens inside the hive.

 BEES STAND THIS SYSTEM. No need to ventilate more. When hive is insulated, it is warmer and dew point is perhaps outside the hive.

Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 06:21:44 am
Bees generate enough heat to keep the entire colony and the cavity in a tree lined with rotten wood at 34c  with it at -20c outside. So why do you chill your bees finski? Is it because you think you know better than the bees. Too fine to be true or do you need more understanding of physics?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 06:35:08 am
There’s an outfit in New England (I believe) that has patented and is selling a bee hive condensation system kind of like Derekm is suggesting.  Somebody posted the link on here before but I can’t recall the website address.  

The premise for their invention seemed to be the old proverb that ‘cold doesn’t kill bees, but moisture does’.

Their solution to prevent moisture problems was a curved aluminum inner roof.  Kind of like a half dome built into a super body.  Aluminum being a very good conductor of heat was allowed to be chilled by the outside air.  When moisture rises from the bees, it hits the cold AL inner cover, condenses and rolls down the sides of the AL where it is funneled into tubes and exhausted outside the hive.

Their hives were not insul

wow patenting a bee chiller.  Thats a case of 100% dehumidification heat budge That's NOT what I'm suggesting AT ALL. To do controlled condensation you need a small slightly colder spot in a insulated hive
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 08:01:38 am
Bees generate enough heat to keep the entire colony and the cavity in a tree lined with rotten wood at 34c  with it at -20c outside. So why do you chill your bees finski? Is it because you think you know better than the bees. Too fine to be true or do you need more understanding of physics?

britain is a Great Country. 60 million people. 10 times more than were have. Thanks to geography distance to Britain from my soffa is1950 kilometres.

I am not afraid when I say that the British do not understand much heat economy of the beehives. I intended to say beekeeping but I did not say.

Heh heh. -20 C outside and the whole tree trunk +34C.  
I have heard that sometimes you get a snow rain in Britain and sometime ponds have 1 cm ice cover.


Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on October 04, 2011, 08:15:27 am
And they're off :-D  Pull 'em back up boys:-D

This months 'Bee Culture' has an article explaining top entry benefits I've not yet seen on this thread, along w/ an interesting take on how top entrances closely mirror a tree cavity.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 08:19:53 am
.
There is a rumour among beekeepers that bees consume more food during warm winter than cold winter.

It is easy to look from google, what are the facts. It has been done many laboratory researches how bee cluster acts in cold winter.

But two years ago our researcher had 4 colonies on balance and he followed the weight loss of hives.

It was strange that when frost rised more than -15 C, beehives stopped consumption. And when it became milder, weight loss start again. Some very experinced guys wrote that "so you see. Frost does not add food consumption". So it seemed.

One professional said to me that in during hard frost the water vapour freezes inside the hives. It is sometimes more and less full of snow generated from respiration.

So, that was the explanation. During hard frost vapour condensates inside the hive and there is not weight loss untill temp rises and snow melts.


.


Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 08:26:44 am
And they're off :-D  Pull 'em back up boys:-D

This months 'Bee Culture' has an article explaining top entry benefits I've not yet seen on this thread, along w/ an interesting take on how top entrances closely mirror a tree cavity.

thomas

i have used it 45 years and learned nothing. I suppose. But I learned in one moment long time ago when I lost several  hives which did not had upper entrances.

Some use it not at all, like my neighbour here. But he has feeding hole open and he conducts the moisture to the loft. Perhaps dad told him.

Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on October 04, 2011, 09:00:14 am
Its little more than 'different strokes for different folks' Finski.  That's a good thing 8-).  Its not all meant to be personal man.

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 10:57:50 am
.
One thing about upperentrance on my latitudes.......

Hives are undersnowand we cannot inspectthem before cleadsing flight.

Snow, ice inside and dead bees may stuck the main entrance during winter, but when upperentrance is open, no worry.

Cluster like to bee near the entrance and dead bees fall near the entrance. Later in Spring bees use the food in back corners of the hive. Often the cluster starts wintering so that they fill the front wall of first and second box.

When cluster get smaller,it moves to back corner of the hive where wind does not reach.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 12:18:25 pm
Bees generate enough heat to keep the entire colony and the cavity in a tree lined with rotten wood at 34c  with it at -20c outside. So why do you chill your bees finski? Is it because you think you know better than the bees. Too fine to be true or do you need more understanding of physics?

britain is a Great Country. 60 million people. 10 times more than were have. Thanks to geography distance to Britain from my soffa is1950 kilometres.

I am not afraid when I say that the British do not understand much heat economy of the beehives. I intended to say beekeeping but I did not say.

Heh heh. -20 C outside and the whole tree trunk +34C.  
I have heard that sometimes you get a snow rain in Britain and sometime ponds have 1 cm ice cover.


Finski we have something called Science in our country, our science has gone from pole to pole., and some of my countrymen know vastly more about heat than you will ever do and have done for centuries... (go find out the Nationality of Joule, Watt and Kelvin)
and dont misquote and hide behind your language difference for effect.  It was -20c outside  and the CAVITY at 34C.

If you want to say derekm knows nothing about heat economy of hive, dont be shy, come right out WRITE IT AND THEN PROVE IT! and unless you want to be called how you act, dont use
RACIST ad hominem.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 04, 2011, 01:36:18 pm
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 01:56:24 pm
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
You arent looking:

one UK beekeeper who reads research - I do and I have quoted them on this forum

You want one paper on  Bee research in UK(scientist dont usually give their nationality in their papers so I will take it from the title)  - Colony losses in Scotland in 2004-2006 from a sample survey. by Magnus Peterson, Alison Gray, Alan Teale. Journal of Apicultural ResearchVol. 48 (2) pp. 145 - 146
Honey bee winter loss survey for England, 2007-8 David Aston Journal of Apicultural Research Vol. 49 (1) pp. 111-112
There are lots more...

This took all of 30 seconds to find.



Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: FRAMEshift on October 04, 2011, 02:14:00 pm
Thanks to geography distance to Britain from my soffa is1950 kilometres.

Is this the one?   Finski's sofa (http://www.goodnewsfinland.com/archive/news/suomi-soffa-introduces-an-intelligent-sofa/)

What part of Finland do you live in?  Closest town?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 02:27:02 pm
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another

 Does infection by Nosema ceranae cause
“Colony Collapse Disorder” in honey bees (Apis mellifera)?
Robert J. Paxton1,2*
1School of Biological Sciences, Queen’s University Belfast, MBC 97 Lisburn Road, Belfast BT9 7BL, UK.

another
Declines of managed honey bees and beekeepers
in Europe
Simon G Potts1*, Stuart P M Roberts1, Robin Dean2, Gay Marris3, Mike A Brown3, Richard Jones4,
Peter Neumann5,6,7 and Josef Settele8
1Centre for Agri-Environmental Research, University of Reading, RG6 6AR, UK.
2Red Beehive Company, 51, Elm Road, Bishops Waltham, Southampton, SO32 1JR, UK.
3National Bee Unit, Food and Environment Research Agency, Sand Hutton, York YO41 1LZ, UK.
4International Bee Research Association, 16, North Road, Cardiff, CF10 3DY, UK.
5Swiss Bee Research Centre, Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux Research Station ALP, CH-3033 Bern, Switzerland.
6Department of Zoology and Entomology, Rhodes University, Grahamstown 6140, South Africa.
7Eastern Bee Research Institute of Yunnan Agricultural University, Kunming, Yunnan Province, China.
8Department of Community Ecology, Helmholtz Centre for Environmental Research - UFZ, Leipzig-Halle, D-06120 Halle,
Germany.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 02:29:57 pm
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another
Honey bee colony losses
Peter Neumann1,2,* and Norman L Carreck3,4
1Swiss Bee Research Centre, Agroscope Liebefeld-Posieux Research Station ALP, CH-3033 Bern, Switzerland.
2Department of Zoology and Entomology, Rhodes University, Grahamstown 6140, South Africa.
3International Bee Research Association, 16, North Road, Cardiff, CF10 3DY, UK.
4Department of Biological and Environmental Science, University of Sussex, Falmer, Brighton, East Sussex, BN1 9QG, UK.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 04, 2011, 02:36:01 pm
.
I have not met beekeeping science in Uk. Show me one bee research made in Uk.
Then show me a UK  beekeeper who read the researches. Guys prefer to invent their own national wheels.

One thing I have learned on Brit. Beekeeping Forum: use old pulsator loundry machine in winter syrup making. It was good!. Since that I have used it.
another
Are honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) native to the British Isles? Norman CarreckJournal of Apicultural Research
   
and finally we have a goverment agency doing research http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/news/newsArticle1.cfm (http://www.fera.defra.gov.uk/news/newsArticle1.cfm)


Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Stone on October 04, 2011, 06:38:56 pm
To clarify my plan: One piece of ceiling tile directly on top of the top medium super.  Lays just like an inner cover. Bee space is maintained. This has a hole in the center - just like an inner cover.  This stuff is literally compressed shredded paper. It's made to absorb sound.  It also absorbs water extremely well.  I got this idea at a bee club meeting.  Sounded logical to me.

A piece of styrofoam insulation on top of this - also with a hole.  Then a vented super with two screened 3/4 inch holes on each side. One is unscreened for a top entrance.

The theory: The warm, moist, less dense air rises (actually is "pushed" up by denser, colder air) and a good deal escapes through the holes and out the vents.  Hopefully, since the tile has insulation on top, its temperature does not drop a great deal thereby limiting condensation on its interior surface.  What does condense is absorbed by the  tile.  The heat generated by the bees inside will also hopefully evaporate some of this absorbed moisture. Anyway, it's better that the cold wood surface of an inner cover which is sure to have lots of condensation since it's exposed to the cold outside air.


Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: annette on October 04, 2011, 07:39:50 pm
OK Stone, I understand now.

Annette
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Tommyt on October 04, 2011, 08:10:56 pm
To clarify my plan: One piece of ceiling tile directly on top of the top medium super.  Lays just like an inner cover. Bee space is maintained. This has a hole in the center - just like an inner cover.  This stuff is literally compressed shredded paper. It's made to absorb sound.  It also absorbs water extremely well.  I got this idea at a bee club meeting.  Sounded logical to me.
I  see you got this from your bee club,but if it were me I would be very worried of the"ceiling tile" type?
I've worked around it, on and off for years it does absorb water, but not in a good way it doesn't do well with moisture
tends to sag then crumble,but I am not up north,don't know,if what your using is different.
In Fl its one of the last things to go in, if you don't keep the moisture out of it,(air conditioning on)you end up replacing it.
I saw many have changed to gypsum tile the other ones were cellulose (I think) those are the ones with little holes in them
 the crumble ones looked like this, (doesn't mean they all do)
(http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/53012/53012,1127661755,11/stock-photo--semi-closeup-of-a-common-cellulose-ceiling-tile-interesting-texture-that-can-be-used-as-577206.jpg)
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Stone on October 04, 2011, 09:08:07 pm
Tommy,
Your point is well taken.  The material suggested at this meeting was Homosote, "like ceiling tile".  I went looking for it and found the two identical. And the photo you sent seems to be identical to the material I have in mind.  You are right, it does sag.  And I've thought about this and have some reservations about using it. 

By the way, what do you mean by, "...it's one of the last things to go in". ?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Tommyt on October 05, 2011, 12:14:53 am
Quote
"...it's one of the last things to go in".
I worked on drug, grocery and strip stores
It was the one of the last things to go in on a new Store
I need to write what I am thinking? lol
 I was going to mention if you do try it, you may want to put
a piece of burlap or some type of cloth under it,if it does deteriorate
you can lift the tile off using the cloth to keep it from crumbling
into your hive.

Tommyt
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 05, 2011, 01:18:54 am
The theory: The warm, moist, less dense air rises (actually is "pushed" up by denser, colder air) and a good deal escapes through the holes and out the vents.  Hopefully, since the tile has insulation on top, its temperature does not drop a great deal thereby limiting condensation on its interior surface.  What does condense is absorbed by the  tile.  The heat generated by the



in that meaning I use an inner cover which has 10 mm wooden board (10 x 50 mm slices).
Abobe that there is 70 mm foam plastic matress (recycled). NO HOLE. Moisture moves through the wood and foam plastic.  it transfer quite much moisture because the aluminium plate rain cove has a lot water droplets inwards the loft.

Wood must be 5 cm clices because moisture twist 10 cm board.

That it called respirative structure. Nowadays it is used mere styrofoam cover, but I like to keep the cover clean with torsch. That cover is in condition about 20 years. Plastic foam matresses are avaible all the time and I shange them when they are dirty.

However, there is NO REASON TO LEAD MOIST VENTILATION AIR VIA HOLE INSIDE THE LOFT.
Make a hole in front wall and lead ventilation direct out like you do in human houses.

Have you "condensation tiles" on your loft or in animal shelters. No one has.

Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: rdy-b on October 05, 2011, 01:44:41 am
 I run a 1 1/2 feed rim for feeding pollen sub-drilled a 5/8 inch hole in the rim
 moister needs a exit point-and the drilled hole provides it-that is how to keep hive dry
 give moister exit point- 8-) RDY-B
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Stone on October 05, 2011, 10:48:10 am
Well, most of us seem to agree that moist, warm air needs an exit.  On a few of my hives I have holes drilled into the top mediums. They will be corked for winter. On all of them, I have a  ventilated super I wrote about - with one of the four 3/4 inch holes unscreened for a top entrance. When I ran top bar hives (which I got rid of fast!), I always made sure there was a plan for convective movement of air to cut down on the moisture inside the hive. (I learned a hard lesson about this after my first winter.)  I make sure I do this now in all my Langs.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Stone on October 05, 2011, 10:54:53 am
Finski,
It's pretty clear that you are trying to be useful with your posts but it's often extremely hard to understand what you are trying to say on this forum.  Written communication is tough enough in one's own native language and there are often misunderstandings that must be clarified in later posts.  Might I suggest you proofread your posts before you hit "reply" so that we all can understand exactly what you want to tell us? Thanks. 
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: rdy-b on October 05, 2011, 10:39:35 pm
 we have a member GAUCHO10 who has done alot of work with top entrace
and vented inercover-  http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26190.0.html (http://forum.beemaster.com/index.php/topic,26190.0.html)

  http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/Ventilated_Inner_Cover.html (http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/Ventilated_Inner_Cover.html)

   ;)  RDY-B
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on October 06, 2011, 07:37:10 am
rdy-b;  thanks for re-posting GAUCHO10 thread.  Must've been incapacitated when it was written as I don't know how else I could have missed it.  Thanks again (and thanks to GAUCHO10 for his efforts as well).

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2011, 07:54:08 am
Finski,
It's pretty clear that you are trying to be useful with your posts but it's often extremely hard to understand what you are trying to say on this forum. 

surely i am not so bad. But I am not going to see more pain for better understanding.
 

If I write, drill a 1,5 mm hole in front wall, do you understand.

If I write, you need not other arrangements in upper ventilation, is it so clear?

Against one hive owners' wisdom I do not have tools. 

.beekeepers love humbug.  then they loose their colonies but never mind.

I have written many years here but it has not meaning. The gang has their own tricks and they do not give up.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 06, 2011, 12:43:57 pm
Finski, you write English just fine.  I would listen to your advice even if you wrote in Finnish :)
Good advice is better than humbug.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2011, 01:15:26 pm
.
If you look Canadian recommendations about wintering, they are almost as I have clarified.

One thing  is that Canada just starts to use  polyhives. They wonder "should they wrap the hives ?". No, they need not wrapping unless with a net against woodpeckers.

If the hives are under snow, they leak so much heat that the hive will be in a snow cave. Snow melts  about half metre around the hive even if out temp is -30C. Then temp under snow will be about - 5C, or the snow reformulate when water vapour moves from warm to cold.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2011, 01:29:46 pm
.
By the way, half of leaves have fallen down from trees in this place. In Helsinki  leaves fall about a week later. In Northern Finland trees are nake. Autumn has been rainy and warm. Frost has not killed any flowers yet. Day temps are about 10C and nights near zero.

 Hives has only few brood if any.  I have shecked several hives and there is no brood. So I may give a oxalic acid dripling. One hive has about a half frame but I took them away. There were mites in every brood cell.

This time bees need not any special ventilation arrangements. They are quite active, at least if I give to  them a reason to rob.
Wasp have died away and queens are hibernating. Nihgt moths suck rotten pears.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: derekm on October 06, 2011, 01:33:30 pm
How much of the bees normal cluster heat output do you think is reasonable to spend on water vapour removal.
150% (get the bees to put out more heat) ?
100% ?
50% ?
10%?

the metal roof sellers think 100%.
finski - it depends where he drills the hole and how far down the cluster is, for the sake of argumentlets  call it 50%
open top entrances are 100%+
what do you think you should do ?
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 06, 2011, 05:37:19 pm
.
I think that I should do nothing. Nothing new on eastern front.
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: rdy-b on October 06, 2011, 11:12:23 pm
How much of the bees normal cluster heat output do you think is reasonable to spend on water vapour removal.
150% (get the bees to put out more heat) ?
100% ?
50% ?
10%?

the metal roof sellers think 100%.
finski - it depends where he drills the hole and how far down the cluster is, for the sake of argumentlets  call it 50%
open top entrances are 100%+
what do you think you should do ?

  DRILL A HOLE--- X:X   RDY-B
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2011, 02:14:59 am
.
Beekeeping is full splended technical ideas.
I weight them  with two views:

- does it bring more honey
- does it make nursing easier

if not, forget it

the winner of this ventilation debate series is: an empty box under the brood box plus an empty box over the hive where you drill 20 holes to ventilate moisture from empty box.


.

Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: BlueBee on October 07, 2011, 03:37:34 am
Hives has only few brood if any.  I have shecked several hives and there is no brood.

Wasp have died away and queens are hibernating. Nihgt moths suck rotten pears.
Finski, are you going to winter any nucs this year?  I checked my super insulated foam nucs yesterday and found a frame of eggs in each.  Looks like I’ll have brood up until at least November.  We’ve had a relatively mild fall, but in my continental climate, as soon as Canada decides to send down some arctic air, we will freeze up in a hurry.  Leaves are changing colors now.

Lots of yellow jackets sucking on rotten pears here.

This thread is sounding like political debate class!  Maybe we need to get some instrumentation in these hives and compare numbers over winter?    
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: T Beek on October 07, 2011, 07:22:03 am
There's a lot of 'non-info' on this thread (confusing to both new and old beeks).  What a shame as some will take the advise (?) and kill bees without realizing they were only part of an ongoing peeing match.

Preconceived, judgemental notions, some have pockets overflowing.

For too many its just not enough to disagree :'( :'( :'(

As for N/W Wisconsin; Leaves are about 1/3 gone after yesterdays and last nights wind (hit peak colors a week ago).  Almost time to plant garlic and pack up bees for winter.  With nothing blooming for bees and exceptional above average temps my four colonies have already sucked down over 100 lbs of sugar.  I agree, yellowjackets are feasting this year.  Can't keep this up much longer, we need winter asap :).

thomas
Title: Re: top entries & insulation
Post by: Finski on October 07, 2011, 11:41:42 am

Finski, are you going to winter any nucs this year?  I checked my super insulated foam nucs yesterday and found a frame of eggs in each.



yes, I have several mating nucs still.  I have enlarged several to one box colony with joining, but some will be in 3 frame nucs with electrict heating. And some are between those.

It has rained really much and I have not opportunity to join extra nucs. These are best queens and i do not mind to kill them.

I chake the bees on capped crystallized honey frames.