Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: rgy on April 17, 2011, 03:27:19 pm

Title: Upper entrance question
Post by: rgy on April 17, 2011, 03:27:19 pm
If you create an upper entrance by notching the inner cover then do you have to elevate the outer cover?  Or do you just slide the outer cover all the way forward?
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: gaucho10 on April 17, 2011, 03:47:20 pm
You slide the cover forward...I think that is why it is called a "telescopic" outer cover.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 17, 2011, 05:48:47 pm
And/or you can put another 'empty' box on top (over inner cover) to be used as a feeder and/or winter insulator.

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: jusme on April 17, 2011, 05:58:00 pm
I'm in between Hastings and Nashville Michigan,  and I totally agree with Thomas.  I use an empty super on top of the inner cover too.  You don't have to disturb the bees when you feed in this NASTY weather we've been having.  The extra entrance and ventilation really helps with the moisture problems.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Finski on April 17, 2011, 11:36:15 pm
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Make a upper entrance wall into the front wall.
It is bad idea to conduct moist hive air inside rain cover.
No idea too to put extra box to capture condensation mpisture into loft.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 18, 2011, 06:41:26 am
Finski; I know you're trying to say something important but it was lost in translation :)  Can you tell it different or send a picture for us 'nolittles' to check out?  What do you mean by "Make a upper entrance wall into the front wall?
The boxes I use on top of inner covers also have 2 one inch screened holes in them. 

Thanks Finski (thought you might want to know that winter is holding on tight for us in North Wisconsin, 21F this AM, but I had bees flying yesterday with 41F and very windy, tough little girls)).

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Brian D. Bray on April 19, 2011, 12:09:15 am
Finski is saying to drill a hole in the front face of the box, that creating an attic space (extra box) above the inner top will just become a place for condensation to take place and even run back down into the hive.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Finski on April 19, 2011, 12:57:04 am
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Brian said excatly what I tried to write. I toggle in mobile and as tired it does not allways succeed.

When you have upper entrance, it it important that in bad or cold weather bees need not to search the entrange. Bees have an exact habit to go in the hive via same site.

Upper entrance system must be flexiple. When you change the box, the entrance must be found quickly, otherwise bees will die in cold weather.

Super entrances are not needed, but bees like to fly  from brood bow level. 

upper entrance is simple. It is not science.

Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Finski on April 19, 2011, 01:03:57 am
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Our hard winter is gone. Willows start blooming inside a week. Permanent snow rained so early that there was no soil frost.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 19, 2011, 07:41:35 am
Finski; You had NO soil frost?  Here the ground is still frozen a few inches below surface.  We're supposed to get a snow storm today/tonite.  Maples and willows are still blooming but I think the dandelions are going to be late with this extended cold.

If there are screens covering the 1 inch holes on 'vent/feed' box over inner cover as I described above then I must disagree w/ Finski.  My bees have no condensation issues (due to the holes letting same out) and neither do any other beeks I know who use such a 'vent/feed box' system.

Is this an assertion based on some experience, because I learned it from a Canadian beek with over 50 years keeping bees, who still does this :? :? :?  Just asking.

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: gaucho10 on April 19, 2011, 09:06:26 am
Not to start an argument here, just making a statement...but I have not had any moisture in any of my hives since 2008.  That is when I went into using screened bottom boards and my new design of a ventilated inner cover (VIC).  I have posted this previously on this website and everyone can search here or go to my website @ www.beesbatsandbeyond.com (http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com).

I believe that as long as you have a bottom entrance along with an upper vent hole above the brood nest then you will have good moisture extraction.  I actually have a 3" vent hole in the center of my inner cover.  Moisture travels from the brood box INTO the inner cover and THEN exits through a normal upper entrance/exit hole (3/8" x 2").
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: jusme on April 19, 2011, 09:22:17 am
I should have been more specific in my other post.  I use the extra super ontop of my inner cover, but I also use a piece of homosote on the inner cover with a hole cut in it that matches the inner cover hole.  I then use a 2" piece of pink foam fit snuggly enough to stay in the top of the empty box.  This leaves me a few inches of space between the homosote and pink foam to add dry sugar.  I can take the top off my hive tip the upper box up and feed the bees without chilling the brood.  It snowed here yesterday, and my bees are not only dry, but they're booming!  No more moisture.  And I didn't treat them with any medications. 

I might add, that the first year I tried to overwinter 4 strong healthy hives I wrapped them in tar paper with no upper ventilation, no insulation and I killed them all with moisture..... Maybe it's wrong to finski,  but it worked very well for me in Michigan.

Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 19, 2011, 10:15:50 am
jusme & gaucho10;  sounds like we're using very similar methods w/ success 8-)

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: jusme on April 19, 2011, 10:31:02 am
Yeh Thomas!  I learned a lot from listening to "Trot". 

I should have specified that the notch in the inner cover had to face down, and be on the same side of the hive as the lower entrance. 

I was amazed that the sugar I dumped on top of the homosote wasn't as hard as a brick after winter.  I did have a little crust on it,  but not a big hard lump.

I should say I did lose 1 out of my 8 hives this winter.  Though it was set up the same as my other hives,  it did have moisture issues.  It's the only hive that had Plastic foundation in it.  Not my choice, but my nucs came with it last year, and I'd replaced it with wax in all my hives but the one I lost.   Anybody else have problems with the plastic creating moisture problems??  I'm not saying that's what caused it..... just asking if that's a possibility???
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: gaucho10 on April 19, 2011, 11:48:35 am
JFYI...back in 1979 when I got my first beehive I asked a well seasoned beekeeper "why the inner cover had a hole on one side".  He told me that the hole is to be used as a front upper entrance or vent hole.

Also, you can flip the inner cover with the entrance hole to be on top.  If you cover the center oval hole with a piece of #8 wire mesh NOW the bees from the hive below can't use the top hole as an entrance.  If you close off the center oval hole (Porter bee escape hole) you can then add another box of bees on top for merging.

The oval center hole was designed by Mr. Porter back the 1800's.  See link and pic.  I personally have not used the Porter bee escape since the early 1980's.


www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/clearing-supers/porter-bee-escape/ (http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/clearing-supers/porter-bee-escape/)
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Finski on April 19, 2011, 12:44:24 pm
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I have wintered bees 48 years.  I keep small main entrance and 1,5 cm upper entrance. Plus solid floor and plastic boxes. It  works however.

Inside snow bees suffer more from moisture than during winters when snow cover is low.

Today first willows bursted to yellow p***y.

Some hives have 7-12 frames brood. Some have 2 frames.

I have installed now 15 W heating to all hives. The queen will descend to the first box due to bottom heating.
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 19, 2011, 04:24:40 pm
jusme;  Trot is the man 8-)  I've learned many things from many beeks but the man has a way of articulating the world that is truly refreshing.  He taught me some things I didn't know I knew, (know what I mean?) and some things that made too much sense to be figured out by this knucklehead anyway?  There are many beeks around, especially in Canada, who practice his methods or some variation.  Trot also uses a 'larger' telescopic cover with holes drilled in 'it' (in the back) instead of a separate box, I believe (this is the place to correct me Trot, if your listening).  He's been more helpful than he knows as far as I'm concerned.

I've lost 4 of 5 over the winter, including a strong two year old colony I had in a LONG Hive (I must get them some fresh air and a way to properly insulate above some how).  All had slightly different set ups.  however, my only survivor was the super colony I've been keeping for 6 seasons now.  And, it was also the only one with a separate vent/feeder box between inner and outer cover that was insulated.  It also had mostly loose, yet a bit soggy sugar still uneaten as of a week ago.  

In observing recent behavior so far my bees are primarily using their bottom entrance (open at smallest hole) for removing dead and trash (chunks of sugar) and the top for bring in pollen, with the top being the busiest, by far.

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: jusme on April 19, 2011, 06:00:39 pm
Yeh Thomas ya gotta love "Trot".  My bees wouldn't have made it through this harsh winter without his advise.   I'll have to do a search and check out his cover.  It's sounds interesting.  

My bees have been using the upper and lower entrances.  Both are 2"  If it gets above 46" , dry and not to windy, the feral bees I hived last year are out working.  They're a little smaller and darker in color, but very tough and busy!  

I've never posted photos, so I don't know if it will work,  but these are the lovely girls that came to me last summer!!  


(http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/6374/2ndbeeswarm.th.jpg) (http://img291.imageshack.us/i/2ndbeeswarm.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 20, 2011, 07:35:27 am
Wow, nice double swarm.  Were there two queens?

Trot's telescopic cover (I believe he makes them) has longer sides and a slightly larger base with holes on the backside drilled at an angle to shed any water.  Very cool and I plan on building some based on his design this summer, if it ever arrives :)

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: jusme on April 20, 2011, 08:11:40 am
Thanks Thomas,  I'm not sure if there were two queens, but there were so many lbs of bees I hived them in two seperate double deeps and they both did great.  Two days before that a single swarm just as large landed in that same tree.  A week later the fourth one arrived.  I'm fortunate my husband's a builder and could build the hives quick enough. 

The big old mother catalpa tree in my front yard has hived bees for 20+ years that I know of.  I was so lucky to have watched, and felt and heard the roar of one of the huge swarms come from the mother catalpa in the front yard to it's  baby catalpa in the back yard.  Much cooler than you'll ever know,  as my husband planted the young tree out back for my 21 year old son Garrett when we lost him in a car accident 5 years ago. ....It's now known as "Garretts Tree of Life" .... Full circle, huh?
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 20, 2011, 08:52:46 am
Observing nature is an award in and of itself.  So sorry for your loss, thanks for sharing.

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Trot on April 20, 2011, 10:58:16 am
Yes Thomas and jusme I am lurking and reading...
Thanks both for kind words and yes Thomas you did say it right.  I have some pictures of how my telescopic covers are made, but I am not too handy with this box, computer, to be able to post a picture.  I could send it to a private  address?

And Thomas, we have nasty weather too.  it is snowing, blowing and after a spell of warm weather, 20 degrees C. I fear that the bees will not make it despite the years of experience and best care possible.

Regards,
Trot
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 20, 2011, 12:55:02 pm
Trot; I thought you might be around, especially with the topic being discussed.  We must have similar weather patterns, its quite nasty here today and I fear for my suvivor bees as well.  They appeared to be doing so well just a few days ago but have now gone quiet, I gave them some fondant and at the rate they were bring in pollen, I'm hoping for the best, but fear that means a major warm up, sooner rather than later.

I'll pm you w/ an address but this site has a very good 'picture posting tutorial' and if the mods are listening they will usually put up a link.  They've been pretty good about it actually.  I'm sure there are many other beeks who would love to see some of your pics.  Have you given any thought to writing a book since the last time I bothered you ;)

thomas
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: Trot on April 20, 2011, 05:03:05 pm
I just came in from shoveling my driveway.  The snow is wet and heavy, or am I older than I think? :-D

Now I am back at my 'box' ...
I got my nose buried into my keyboard - back home in Slovenia, beeks are loosing bees from farmers spraying the fields of rape. ( think that is what is called?)
The reason I bring this up is the way situations have a knack of developing in this crazy world of ours;  yesterday there was this argument going on (their forum) about growing things organically, getting away from dreaded Neonicotinoids, at least using less chemicals, sprays and what have you, which all affect the health of our bees.  One guy, that I personaly know, he eagerly and at times 'hotly' defended the growers/farmers, saying that they work by the book, spray by the book and at proper times, to protect bees, blah, blah, blah...
Early today I was reading their newspapers and noticed the many reports how are in many regions loosing countless hives, due to improper or careless spraying of rape crops. 
Such, or similar (last year was corn) poisonings are yearly wiping out many beeks in Slovenia. 
I recognized some names and regions where this is going on and promptly went to various sites to investigate?  Sure enough, the fella who defended the practices, mentioned above, he lost 300 hives today.  Pictures of dead bees and empty hive, upon hive are not nice to see...

I should mention again that the plight of EU bees and beeks is in the news every spring if not even throughout the year, as of late, cause growers and orchard owners just don't care about nothing anymore.  They spray whenever it suits them with whatever chemicals comes into their hands.  (or so I gather?)  Most often they mix a bit more, or mix a 'cocktail' and "fortify' so it will 'take better!"
if there is no 'bugs' to spray - they set up with the same (unwashed) equipment and spray to kill off the natural growth, plants that 'steel' fertilizer and deprives their precious crops from proper nourishment??? :?

It is a sad world that we are living in, my friend, and I don't see it getting any better.

 About the book? 
Thanks, but no thanks.  I take enough flack as it is.  Tired of eating crow. . .  Writing books belong - should go to the 'experts,' for God knows that we have enough of them.  It should make for entertaining reading if they do decide to put their know-how on the paper?  I am looking forward to it, when sitting by the crackling fire, passing the time - waiting for weather to break, or for lost Spring to appear...  We sure could use something to perk us up in our gloomy days, don't you think Thomas?
Like the guy said: "I'm too old to dance ..... is too cold to swim, don't drink, to old to - heee, hee, nuf said. . . . :) ;) :-P

Happy Easter to you and all. . .


Regards,
Trot   
Title: Re: Upper entrance question
Post by: T Beek on April 21, 2011, 08:29:52 am
Trot;  While it remains ever painful and frustrating to witness, I haven't been surprised by humanities willingness to self-distruct or commit murder upon 'our' planet, its peoples, and fellow creatures, in the never-ending desire to accumulate more and more profit (at the expense of our own descendants) :'( for a very long time.

thomas