Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => NATURAL & ORGANIC BEEKEEPING METHODS => Topic started by: DayValleyDahlias on March 30, 2008, 02:50:47 am
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No signs of Nosema here, but what do we do organically to prevent this bug?
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No signs of Nosema here, but what do we do organically to prevent this bug?
You can't determine Nosema without a microscope and looking at the gut. You can see dysentery from feces stains, and although Nosema and dysentery sometimes go together, one does not necessarily identify the other.
If you do a search, I think FatBeeman uses tea tree oil? I have no experience using it.
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Okay, I was just wondering. I'll give it a search...
Tx
S
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>No signs of Nosema here, but what do we do organically to prevent this bug?
I've done nothing for 34 years with pretty good success. I did buy a microscope this year as I am paranoid of Nosema cerana now. I will investigate further to see if I can find Nosema or not.
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I guess I overlook the word prevent in the original post and assumed you were asking about treating.
I too have not done any preventative treating in many years. I do make sure my hives have sufficient upper ventilation in the winter so that moisture does not become an issue and stress the bees.
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http://www.bushfarms.com/beespests.htm#nosema
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Do you have the April issue of the American Bee Journal? There's an article in there about using thymol oil in syrup that sounded extremely intriguing for the treatment of nosema cerana and apis. Supposedly it was as good as treating with Fumagilin (sp?). Worth a shot, I guess!
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Thymol is what they use in Europe where Fumadil is illegal.
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I will google thymol, is it an essential oil? I am wondering how well it mixes with syrup...hhmmm...I am going to leave well enough alone, but it is good to have proper "organcic" treatments handy should the need be...
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>I will google thymol, is it an essential oil?
Sort of. It is a plant extract, but it ends up as a white powder, not an oil.
>I am wondering how well it mixes with syrup
Not well, by all accounts. I believe you'll have to dissolve it with everclear (ethyl alcohol) and then put it in the syrup.
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Michael is right (of course! ;) ) you have to dissolve it in alcohol before putting it into syrup.
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Thank for the info...hope I never have to use the stuff... ;)
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Listerine:
The main chemical in Listerine is a non-edible alcohol, which kills germs and loosens the plaque in your gums. Menthol, thymol, and eucalyptus are there mostly for flavor; they do have an effect of soaking into the skin layers to make your mouth feel cooler and to make that taste remain for some time. The methyl salicylate is related to aspirin (acetylsalicylate) and will kill some of the germs as well as partially numbing the skin. This also contributes to the "clean" feeling.
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Just lost 5 hives this winter to Nosema. I sent samples to Beltsville and the report came back with a mite count of 36 from the sample and a spore count of 2,450,000 per bee. They added that 1,000,000 spores per bee was considered very high.
I got to talking to a local commercial beek about it and he told me to scrape the frames, frame rests, and hive body down real good and get a spray bottle full of common vinegar and spray every thing down with it. He said after the stuff dried out most if not all of the Nosema spores would be killed or at least reduced to the point that it would be safe to place new bees back in those hives. Anyone have any experience with this method of killing Nosema spores?
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>Anyone have any experience with this method of killing Nosema spores?
I have not done it but it seems to be a popular method of cleaning up. The other is to buy Acetic acid (the active part of the vinegar) and fumigate the hive with that. I have not done that either, but it is supposed to be pretty effective.
I ran into a study the other day done in Australia on lemongrass oil for nosema, (fumidil is illegal in Australia as well as the EU) but I've been searching for days now and can't find it again. I don't seem to have bookmarked it. If anyone sees it, I'd love to read it again.
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Got a couple of warm days coming at the end of the week so I'm off to Wally World to get me some vinegar. Got five replacement nucs coming in may so I have to get busy. Thanks for the response MB..
Another question while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know if spraying frames with vinegar in spring and fall with live bees on them is harmful to the bees or not?
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MB, do you remember if the article had to do with feeding lemmongrass oil? i have noticed that if i use it in my syrup the syrup does not mold as quickly. i also tried the tree tea oil in syrup in hopes of getting the chalkbrood under control. don't know yet if it worked. i can't seem to get rid of the stuff.
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>Another question while I'm thinking about it, does anyone know if spraying frames with vinegar in spring and fall with live bees on them is harmful to the bees or not?
I would not spray it on the bees.
>MB, do you remember if the article had to do with feeding lemmongrass oil?
In syrup, yes.
> i have noticed that if i use it in my syrup the syrup does not mold as quickly.
True.
> i also tried the tree tea oil in syrup in hopes of getting the chalkbrood under control.
It might. Raising the pH might also.
> don't know yet if it worked. i can't seem to get rid of the stuff.
The study was testing several essential oils, seems like it was tea tree, thymol and lemongrass and maybe patchuli or something like that. But anyway they tested two different KINDS of lemongrass oil and had the efficacy for both (one was better than the other) and the lemongrass oil was better than the others for Nosema (if I remember right). I wish I could find it again. I thought sure I bookmarked it but I can't seem to find the bookmark...
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Kathy, tell us more about your chalkbrood stuff. I remember from last year that you had these issues, big time. I did too. I wound up killing a queen that I had such high hopes of the chalkbrood rectifying itself. I ended up uniting this colony with another one because I had been so hopeful of the condition clearing up, but never did. By the time I got around to killing the queen the colony had dwindled really badly, so badly that unite was the only thing I could do. I should have killed the queen much sooner than I did, but I just kept hoping it would clear up on its own for far too long. I accept the fact that I was very neglectful with this colony and should have acted much sooner than I did, but man, sometimes life can get just so busy....what more can I say.
I want to hear more about this. Are you experiencing chalkbrood right now? If you are, is it in the same colony as last year. I am wondering if you need to cull all that comb in that colony and start over with new foundation? I am wondering too much here, no facts, so tell more about it. This needs to be fixed before you got into the summer, so you need some help now......have a wonderful and beautiful day, Cindi
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cindi, my experience was almost exactly the same as yours. i killed the queen, but to late. that colony overwintered in 1 deep. when i cleaned the SBB about a month ago, it was covered with chalkbrood carcasses.
i am waiting a bit to see if this queen will be better, but i still some some chalkbrood on the bottom. i have fed the tree tea oil in syrup. i hate to mess with this hive. it is the best of them in temperament, and this queen is a great layer. however.....none of that makes any difference if the brood is no good.
i will be patient until warmer and dryer weather. it is early yet.
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Kathy, good that you have the patience. But remember.....if the chalkbrood doesn't clean up, it doesn't matter one single whit if the queen is a great layer, she may be laying wonderfully, but what a waste of her time, hee, hee. She is doing her job, there is chalkbrood issues though, that is bad. Good luck, it will be interesting to hear of what will come. Have the beautiful day that you deserve. Cindi
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cindi, i think it's just to early to tell. the weather has been so crappy. they say snow this weekend. it's APRIL!!!!!!!!!
i hope it's not wishful thinking on my part that this will clear up :-(
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I usually put cider vinegar in my simple syrup and have little Nosema problems. Just a thought.
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>I usually put cider vinegar in my simple syrup and have little Nosema problems. Just a thought.
David Eyre of www.beeworks.com says the same.
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Brian,
What would your ratios be for adding the vinegar? Apple Cider vinegar? Sounds easy...
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Brian,
What would your ratios be for adding the vinegar? Apple Cider vinegar? Sounds easy...
Roughly, a teaspoon per quart of water or pound of sugar.
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Does it make a difference if it is Apple Cider or Distilled White Vinegar?
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David Eyre uses apple cider vinegar.
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Just lost 5 hives this winter to Nosema. I sent samples to Beltsville and the report came back with a mite count of 36 from the sample and a spore count of 2,450,000 per bee. They added that 1,000,000 spores per bee was considered very high.
I got to talking to a local commercial beek about it and he told me to scrape the frames, frame rests, and hive body down real good and get a spray bottle full of common vinegar and spray every thing down with it. He said after the stuff dried out most if not all of the Nosema spores would be killed or at least reduced to the point that it would be safe to place new bees back in those hives. Anyone have any experience with this method of killing Nosema spores?
DID they identify the strain of Nosema -WAS it apis or ceranae-from what i am to understand the old tricks dont work on the ceranae strain-RDY-B
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Does it make a difference if it is Apple Cider or Distilled White Vinegar?
The Stop & Shop brand of apple cider and distilled white vinegar are both diluted with water to 5% acid.
Not a plug, it's just that the rice wine vinegar and Balsamic vinegars have both lost their labels.
If you are going to add it to your syrup, then I would use the apple cider vinegar because of the extra phenols (flavor) that it will empart.
But then I've never added vinegar to syrup, so what do I know?
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Thanks guys for the info.
Beltsville did not say which strain of Nosema, only that there were 2,450,000 spores per bee. Average counts of 1,000,000 spores per bee is high. The five nucs that are coming have been treated before leaving S.C. so I won't need to worry about it until this fall. That will give me time to figure out what type feeder I will use to dispense the syrup and vinegar. I've got two nice hive top feeders made of wood that work well and the other three will probably get some el cheapo paint pails or gallon jars over the hole in the inner cover.