Welcome, Guest

Author Topic: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?  (Read 20849 times)

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2016, 10:12:44 am »
Tell me more about letting them raise their own queens.
This is off topic but I basically deal the deck and walk away.  Michael Bush has every option on his website.  Timing is everything when it comes to bees.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #61 on: April 28, 2016, 11:04:58 am »
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf

If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline KeyLargoBees

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 776
  • Gender: Male
    • Pirate Hat Apiary
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #62 on: April 28, 2016, 01:18:56 pm »
I think this is about as close to a "political" discussion as I have seen on this site.....no way to win it.....everyone becomes a loser.... I am out....do what you feel is best and we will have to agree to disagree.
Jeff Wingate

Changes in Latitudes...Changes in Attitudes....are Florida Keys bees more laid back than the rest of the country...only time will tell!!!
piratehatapiary@gmail.com https://www.facebook.com/piratehatapiary

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #63 on: April 28, 2016, 02:11:15 pm »
I'm sticking with OAV until I can do better. I've used it 3 winters and apparently it's made beekeeping for me a whole different picture than life without it. MB's small cell approach is totally interesting but currently I don't have the time to dedicate to this approach. At some point in time I'm certainly going to try it. He's got a lot of years under his belt with this as well.

OldMech & Acebird I enjoy the knowledge you both bring to the table. Always remember, the written word is the worst way to communicate "exactly" what you're saying or how you're saying it.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #64 on: April 28, 2016, 03:04:13 pm »
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf

If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Has anyone other than a commercial pest control person ever been prosecuted (judicially or administratively) for violating the dictates of the label?  As a Master Gardener, I've advised people about the law and good practices with regard to pesticides, told them the damage overuse or improper use can cause and had the person respond with "Okay, but I'm going to go ahead and treat my lawn (or whatever) with it anyway."

Urban homeowners are the worst offenders of overuse of pesticides and the first to complain about water quality when rivers and lakes that supply drinking water become polluted with chemicals.  They try to blame agricultural users, but farmers use measured amounts of pesticides that are just enough to do the job.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #65 on: April 28, 2016, 03:50:36 pm »
If you want to be compliant with USA laws. This is the product you use.
http://nybeewellness.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/oxalic-label-final.pdf

If not there may be a penalty to pay. If you are using chemicals that are off label in a beehive or anywhere else.




    BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Has anyone other than a commercial pest control person ever been prosecuted (judicially or administratively) for violating the dictates of the label?  As a Master Gardener, I've advised people about the law and good practices with regard to pesticides, told them the damage overuse or improper use can cause and had the person respond with "Okay, but I'm going to go ahead and treat my lawn (or whatever) with it anyway."

Urban homeowners are the worst offenders of overuse of pesticides and the first to complain about water quality when rivers and lakes that supply drinking water become polluted with chemicals.  They try to blame agricultural users, but farmers use measured amounts of pesticides that are just enough to do the job.


Yes Adee Honey Farms of Bruce, South Dakota; Was prosecuted in Minnesota for using off-label chemicals in a beehive and was ordered to pay $14,000. This was about 9 to10 years ago

Something you might like to read before you use off-label chemicals or products .

http://www.beesource.com/forums/showthread.php?195371-Adees-fined-for-unapproved-chemical-use&highlight=Adee



             BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 28, 2016, 04:20:06 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline OldMech

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
  • Gender: Male
    • The Outyard
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #66 on: April 28, 2016, 10:36:36 pm »
Aye.. and I will continue to treat my bees with OAV to kill the mites that harm them.   I must also disagree with Michael to a certain extent..   I want to see the research that shows OAV harms the bees please?   I do constantly search for both the good, and bad.  I have yet to see any definitive research done in any believable manner that indicates the bees are harmed by the correct usage of OAV... I have seen NON definitive research claiming a LOT of good, which i have discounted in favor of the more thorough processes done in a controlled manner, which also claim no harm is done.
   Its sort of like researching systemic insecticides by planting a little patch of something treated with said insecticide near some beehives and claiming its safe for the bees...  thats not how it works...    Everyone wants the OAV to be the silver bullet for mites, and much of what i have read seems to be wishful thinking, I would also very much like to read about the other end of the spectrum, but have as yet found nothing I feel confident is accurate.   
   " If it kills the mite, it damages the bee."   OK?  How? When pretty much everything the bees forage on has OA in it to one degree or another.. yes, in trace amounts compared to the amount we stuff into the hives...     What exactly is the damage?
   I have read it harms open brood, but have seen no evidence to support it myself. I can point to several sites that claim it does no damage at all after "much" research, but like Monsanto testing their own pesticides, its easy to ignore any ill effects in favor of the good when you sell those pesticides (or in this case Vaporizors.)
    Thanks!
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline tjc1

  • Field Bee
  • ***
  • Posts: 752
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #67 on: April 28, 2016, 10:55:37 pm »
In part, what got me to wondering about the original question was that I waited until my hives were brood free to treat with the OAV (on Nov. 7), but that turned out to be too late - it killed lots of mites, but it turned out the hives were already too far gone and absconded soon after. So, if you only treat in early spring and late fall with OAV, how do you avoid this situation? I guess the answer is earlier in the fall when there is still open brood...?

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #68 on: April 29, 2016, 09:22:35 am »
   " If it kills the mite, it damages the bee."   OK?  How?

I don't think we know how.  From what I read we don't know how it kills the mite.  If we did we might have a better understanding what it does to the bee.  But with the bee it is more complicated because there is the whole organism of the colony that is treated not just a single adult bee.  It is very unusual in this country to have something approved when we know so little.  So many times in the past we learned later on the damage that occurs to the environment and then enact laws to ban the practice a little too late.  Now in the case of OAV the cry for approval came from beekeepers not a chemical company.  That is a big switch.  What is not a switch is the increased dependency on chemicals and this approval has turned a corner where there is no turning back.  Wishing for something and getting it could be the worse thing that ever happened to a beekeeper and his bees.
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #69 on: April 29, 2016, 09:41:21 am »
Acebird
     I wonder why you post. Remind me of all the old news clippings I used to see the kid in the movie theater. And no I don't believe they're both the same in anyway. But it sure looks similar.
https://youtu.be/RmeqHs4svbQ




     People were looking for silver bullets in 1945 not much has changed.  :wink: Remember one thing: I believe it  DDT came from Europe.
3:00 to 5:00 minutes on the counter.Did I not hear Europe ??

                         BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 11:34:04 am by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline KPF

  • New Bee
  • *
  • Posts: 44
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #70 on: April 29, 2016, 09:55:33 am »
I'm going to use OA for my new packages and try to drop it once they get established. Packages have so much going against them that giving them a respite from mites in year 1 might give them a chance to make it through that first year and let them focus on building comb.  After that, I'm going to put the vape away and try my best to keep them going naturally and use nucs to create a mini-survivor stock apiary.  It will take some more study on my part to master these techniques but that's the fun of beekeeping. I haven't looked into miticides too closely but from what I can gather OA is the least noxious of the bunch.  I agree with other posters who have made the important point that chemicals are chemicals and the difference between a drug and a poison is often just the dose.  If you take it to the most extreme degree, even water is dangerous (if you're a marathoner and overhydrate, diluting your electrolytes and placing yourself at risk of heart attack. Yes, people have died after marathons because they drank too much water.)

I appreciate all the posters' comments and the dialogue. The argument that not treating ultimately is better for the bees makes a lot of sense to me. A subpopulation of bees will eventually be resistant to varroa and if left to breed will solve the problem.  Whether it does so in my lifetime is a different question, but I'm going to hope for the best!
"Sprinkles are for winners."

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #71 on: April 29, 2016, 10:58:02 am »
When administering OAV, one is NOT treating BEES - one is treating MITES.  OA functions as a miticide, not an insecticide.
LJ

LJ,  When you spray bug repellent on your skin it's intent is to repel bugs that bite you.  Unfortunately the skin will absorb some of the chemical.  There is no immediate negative reaction from using the spray (for most of the population) so we label it as no harm done to humans.

That's not an equal comparison, for skin will most certainly absorb chemicals - that is the route used by ointments.  In marked contrast, the cuticle of the honeybee will not absorb chemicals - certainly not for the duration we're talking about here.  And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee. (unless it's unwisely fed to hungry bees in a sugar solution)

Quote
OAV has been used in Europe for 20 years.  How come all the mites are not dead?

Because not everyone is using OAV - some beekeepers dribble OA in sugar solution (which I think is daft), many use patented compounds, some don't treat at all, and feral bees of course don't get treated.

Quote
When you use the chemical you have to wear a mask because the vapors can drop you dead.  So this acid can kill mites, kill humans, but doesn't do a darn thing to a honeybee.  That is something I cannot accept. 

As mentioned above, bees never get to inhale the microcrystalline aerosol - the particles are too large.  And, AFAIK it doesn't kill mites by inhalation either.  The reason it would kill humans by inhalation is because we have a much different respiratory system to that of insects.  A good dose of OA Vapour would cause our sensitive airways to clamp shut, preventing breathing.  Just as water would do.  So we can drown - fish don't.  Different respiratory systems again.

Over the last 20 years, we (in Europe) have discovered that in practice OAV is deadly for the Varroa mite, but doesn't harm honeybees.  By this, I mean that there is no evidence whatsoever that bees are harmed in any way. Hence we continue to use it.  If everyone used it, and gave multiple spread doses to ensure that all brood are caught, then we could heavily decimate the varroa population.  The only remaining vehicle for mite propagation would then be feral bees - so they're unlikely to ever be eradicated completely.
 
We love our bees - don't you think that if there was ANY suggestion of harm being caused, then we would have stopped using it years ago ?

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #72 on: April 29, 2016, 12:06:33 pm »
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that  borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up.  :wink:
While you're at it you should look up applying pesticide products to bee hives. And if you do bottle and jar your own honey you may want to look up food laws for processing and labeling..




                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 03:48:37 pm by Jim 134 »
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Dallasbeek

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 2526
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #73 on: April 29, 2016, 12:19:14 pm »
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that  borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up.  :wink:




                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Jim,

Horticulturally, a tomato is a fruit, okay?  But the United States Supreme Court ruled that it's a vegatable, so a tomato is legally a vegetable.  Then the bureaucrats at the Agriculture Department or the Dept.  of Health, Education and Welfare or whatever decreed that for school lunch program purposes, ketchup (catsup?) counted as a vegetable.

What I'm saying is that I'd ALMOST believe something I read on the internet before taking  official government pronouncements as pure and true.
"Liberty lives in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no laws, no court can save it." - Judge Learned Hand, 1944

Offline GSF

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 4084
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #74 on: April 29, 2016, 01:26:59 pm »
I'm going to use OA for my new packages and try to drop it once they get established

At first I thought you said you were going to put them in the super then treat with OAV.

Yeah, make sure they've been there a while and have open brood before you treat. Otherwise someone will be catching a swarm with a marked queen.
When the law no longer protects you from the corrupt, but protects the corrupt from you - then you know your nation is doomed.

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #75 on: April 29, 2016, 03:41:24 pm »
In the state where I live the apiary laws and regulations. Plus two other states that  borders the town where I live. In it's descriptions tells me oxalic acid is a pesticide.... Just maybe you should look up the state laws for yourself before you believe stuff on the internet. Most all states in the USA have Rewritten the apiary laws and regulations in the past two to three years so please keep up.  :wink:
 
While you're at it you should look up applying pesticide products to bee hives. And if you do bottle and jar your own honey you may want to look up food laws for processing and labeling.



                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)


Jim,

Horticulturally, a tomato is a fruit, okay?  But the United States Supreme Court ruled that it's a vegatable, so a tomato is legally a vegetable.  Then the bureaucrats at the Agriculture Department or the Dept.  of Health, Education and Welfare or whatever decreed that for school lunch program purposes, ketchup (catsup?) counted as a vegetable.

What I'm saying is that I'd ALMOST believe something I read on the internet before taking  official government pronouncements as pure and true.

Just remember one thing if you do go to court on any kind of  Chase . Guess who rules got played by a whose definitions.




              BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline Acebird

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 8112
  • Gender: Male
  • Just do it
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #76 on: April 29, 2016, 04:29:14 pm »
And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee. 
LJ, isn't the vapor a gas particle and that is not small enough to enter the honeybee spiracles?

I am sure you would not intentionally do something to harm your honeybees but if you believe that OAV is the silver bullet against mites I can't see you pushing for research that would prove the harm.  There isn't even any push to find out how it works.  This is not logical to me.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 08:18:07 am by Acebird »
Brian Cardinal
Just do it

Offline OldMech

  • Queen Bee
  • ****
  • Posts: 1011
  • Gender: Male
    • The Outyard
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #77 on: April 29, 2016, 10:43:28 pm »
   " If it kills the mite, it damages the bee."   OK?  How?

I don't think we know how.  From what I read we don't know how it kills the mite.  If we did we might have a better understanding what it does to the bee.  But with the bee it is more complicated because there is the whole organism of the colony that is treated not just a single adult bee.  It is very unusual in this country to have something approved when we know so little.  So many times in the past we learned later on the damage that occurs to the environment and then enact laws to ban the practice a little too late.  Now in the case of OAV the cry for approval came from beekeepers not a chemical company.  That is a big switch.  What is not a switch is the increased dependency on chemicals and this approval has turned a corner where there is no turning back.  Wishing for something and getting it could be the worse thing that ever happened to a beekeeper and his bees.

     I agree with you 100%

  There isn't even any push to find out how it works.  This is not logical to me.

   One again, I agree with you 100%

   I use OAV because it is the lesser evil as i see it...    I LIKE NEONICS mostly because they mean i do not have to go clean out dead hives after the sprayers pass over the fields, which is what I used to have to do.. there was no internet then.. I saw the planes, I knew I would be cleaning out dead hives that weekend...   Neonics means I can rotate my comb and save my bees... for the most part.. And NO, it is not a perfect solution, but it is better than what used to happen.. YES I want better, just like treating for mites.. I order resistant bees every year to add to my apiary.. I put them in a yard I do not treat.. so far, 98% of those bees fail miserably to deal with the mites, the other 2%??? They are still there, and I make queens from them to make my splits and nucs...  Unfortunately, 99.9% of those new queens/bees also fail to deal with the mite loads...      There are JUST too many people who order packages every year, and flood the area with drones that have 0 resistance to be able to make any headway, and so for the majority of my hives, I use OAV, because it is the least damaging thing we have...   sort of like voting for a president...   You do your research, and force yourself to pick the one that will do the least damage to the lifestyle you live.
   Which keeps me looking for answers, looking for research, both good and bad that is believable and realistic....
   I need 100+ Hives to meet my pollination contracts. I need 50ish hives to make honey..  If I let them go with no treatments I cant meet either of the requirements/deadlines/numbers..   I would dearly LOVE to stop treating, but it will mean losing 99% of my hives and end my ability to pay bills...
    I have tried SO MANY different strains/lines of bees that were guaranteed to be mite resistant, and had them fail miserably once moved to my location...  different climate? Inability to winter well etc...
    If it were possible to kill EVERY feral and non resistant bee in one fell swoop, i think we could repopulate with bees that can deal with the mites, but I see 3000 + packages delivered nearby each and every spring. Packages of generic bees that have 0 resistance, that produce drones and swarm...   So i am open and eager to hear suggestions on a better way to keep my bees alive.
39 Hives and growing.  Havent found the end of the comfort zone yet.

Offline Jim134

  • Galactic Bee
  • ******
  • Posts: 3057
  • Gender: Male
    • Franklin County Beekeepers Association
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #78 on: April 30, 2016, 07:56:55 am »

    If it were possible to kill EVERY feral and non resistant bee in one fell swoop, i think we could repopulate with bees that can deal with the mites, but I see 3000 + packages delivered nearby each and every spring. Packages of generic bees that have 0 resistance, that produce drones and swarm...   So i am open and eager to hear suggestions on a better way to keep my bees alive.

       I know for me if I had 3,000 hives within flying range of my own hives. I would have a hard time selling pollination and or making honey.


                           BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
"Tell me and I'll forget,show me and I may  remember,involve me and I'll understand"
        Chinese Proverb

"The farmer is the only man in our economy who buys everything at retail, sells everything at wholesale, and pays the freight both ways."
 John F. Kennedy
Franklin County Beekeepers Association MA. http://www.franklinmabeekeepers.org/

Offline little john

  • Super Bee
  • *****
  • Posts: 1537
Re: Why not regular fumings of oxalic?
« Reply #79 on: April 30, 2016, 08:17:38 am »
And - honeybee spiracles are surrounded by hairs which will block particles the size of Oxalic Acid microcrystals - ergo - Oxalic Acid never gets to enter the body of the honey bee. 
LJ, isn't the vapor a gas particle and that is too small to enter honeybee spiracles?

No - this is where the terminology being used isn't doing us any favours ...

A vapour IS a gas particle, certainly.  When Oxalic Acid Dihydrate is heated, the first thing that happens is that it's water component (the Dihydrate) is boiled-off.  Then, when the Oxalic Acid reaches it's sublimation temperature, it 'sublimates' - that is, it changes from a solid to a gaseous state, without going through a liquid phase.  At that point in time, it IS a vapour, it IS a gas.

However, upon immediately leaving the heat source, it's temperature drops below it's sublimation temperature and the Oxalic Acid vapour reverts again to it's solid state, as individual molecules of solid OA.  These immediately absorb moisture to again form the Dihydrate.  These molecules of Oxalic Acid Dihydrate then clump together to form large (in molecular terms) microcrystals which become visible to the naked eye as a white 'smoke'.  (The vapour itself is invisible)

All of this happens very quickly and within a short distance from the heated pan.  Anyone who has experimented with various methods of vapourising OA will have observed that OA residue can often be found a few millimeters from the heat source, and certainly within a centimetre (say, half an inch).

What enters the beehive is NOT Oxalic Acid 'vapour', but rather a coarse dust of Oxalic Acid particles - which is why a) a good quality dust mask is all that is sufficient for respiratory protection, b) the dust particles never get to enter the body of the bee, and c) OA is unable to enter capped brood cells.

For as we know, the wax cap of brood cells is porous, which allows the developed bee to breath prior to it's emergence.  But these pores are not large enough to allow the Oxalic Acid dust particles to enter.  Formic Acid, on the other hand, forms a true vapour, and in this constant gaseous form it CAN enter brood cells via their porous caps - which is why Formic Acid can be used to treat those Varroa breeding on sealed brood, whereas Oxalic Acid cannot.

Perhaps it would be more accurate to describe the process as one of 'dusting' the bees with an aerosol of fine Oxalic Acid powder - with that aerosol having been generated by the action of vapourisation.

Quote
I am sure you would not intentionally do something to harm your honeybees but if you believe that OAV is the silver bullet against mites I can't see you pushing for research that would prove the harm.  There isn't even any push to find out how it works.  This is not logical to me.

Do we really NEED to know how it works ?  Surely, all that's necessary is to know that it DOES work, and what doseage is safe. 

As beekeepers we're often faced with decisions which have to be made.  When faced with a hive infested with the Varroa mite, what choices of action are there ? Well, the first decision is whether to treat or not. 

Now, I fully understand the thinking behind letting Nature work the problem out for itself.  But - how many colonies of bees must die-out (and in the most miserable of ways) before a chance genetic mutation occurs which gives rise to a hygenic trait ?  Should a breed of bee ever evolve with that stable genetic trait, then I'll be one of the first in the queue to buy such a queen.

But - in the abence of any better solution - I treat the mites instead.  And so the next decision is "what to treat them with ?"  I have looked carefully at the proprietary medications on offer, most of which have dreadful side-issues, and the actions of which many mites have quickly become immune.  But not so Oxalic Acid: there are no apparent side-effects, and no evidence of any immunity having developed over two decades - so it would appear to be the best solution to the presenting problem currently on offer.

But ... just suppose you're right, and there is some small amount of harm (although not yet detected) which occurs to the bees ... ?  As I see it, it's a situation not dissimilar to that faced by surgeons in the Napoleonic and First World Wars when presented with a patient who had contracted gangrene - the decision of course being whether or not to cut-off the limb in order to save the patient's life.  But such decisions are easy (if uncomfortable) to make - for it becomes 'the lesser of two evils', as it is for me with regard to the health of honey-bees.

LJ
A Heretics Guide to Beekeeping - http://heretics-guide.atwebpages.com