Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum

BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 08:11:52 am

Title: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 08:11:52 am
Leaving the whole discussion of tainting your queen, the products offered over the years from supply houses that come with warnings of health/cancer/pregnancy concerns, and possible negative impacts of queen health and even increased supercedure, let me ask why one seeks a marked queen.

I will also suggest or state the best reason I had heard was from those in AHB areas.  But lets just keep it to someone outside of AHB areas, even though this may shine some light on the fact having marked queen is a moot point for most when it comes to their own operations.

So a new beekeeper gets a marked queen. This sets in motion a few actions seen over and over again.

1) The new beekeeper will look for the marked queen upon almost every visit into the hive. See eggs, see larvae, see everything else....does not matter. The inspection is not complete until the queen is found. After all, with a marked queen, it is supposed to be much easier...right?

The downfall is that stress, damage, and likelyhood that the queen will be damaged, is increased significantly with every full blown frame by frame inspection into the hive.

2) So you find a queen not marked in your hive. Now what? Most I know, do not automatically pinch an unmarked queen. And I certainly am not suggesting such. So what is a new beekeeper to do?

Lets assume you see an unmarked queen in your hive. Do you now evaluate the new queen? See if she is a good producer. Make sure she is laying. Sounds reasonable. What did you gain from having the first queen marked and now you have a queen not marked? Some will suggest that going from a marked to unmarked queen at least allows you to know a new queen is present and allows you to monitor the new queen. But shouldn't you be monitoring the queens production and performance anyways, regardless of a marked or unmarked queen in your hive? Afterall, why did you go into the hive anyways?

So what was gained by having a marked queen if your not willing to automatically pinch any found unmarked queen? I don't see much to be gained.

You hear posts like this from time to time......."I went into my hive and found a new unmarked queen. What should I do?" Basically the advice is "Monitor her and make sure she is mated well and has a good pattern" or at least something along those lines. But isn't that the same advice whether going from a unmarked queen to a unmarked queen, or an marked queen to an unmarked queen? The reason you went into the hive to begin with was hopefully to see if everything was ok and evaluate the queen by seeing eggs, brood, etc. You should be doing that everytime you go through your hives anyways.

I see some promote marking queens by suggesting "There is no excuse for unmarked queens". I think it has more to do with "There is no good reason to mark queens".

To me, marked queens is a weak rationale for beginners, who would be better off knowing how to read a frame of brood and other signs in the hive, as compared to a single factor such as "Yep..there she is. Same queen. Same mark. Ok, lets close up the hive. I found what I needed to see".   But see the marked queen for what reason?


I'm willling to listen. Tell me the dynamics of your management, your IPM, or anything in regards to keeping bees, that require a marked queen.

I know some mark queens for record keeping and breeding. Although I may be myself hesitant of buying tainted queens as I have no idea what most mark queen with.

So tell me...why did you buy a marked queen? Was it because someone said it was a good idea? Because you thought you could find a queen faster?
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: CountryBee on July 09, 2010, 09:10:00 am
My Italian queens are not marked and not clipped, I believe this "might" or "could" have a negative affect on her.  Why do something to her, it is not done in the wild.  I look at the brood pattern, check for missed spaces, make sure it is filled out and not jumped around the frame.  I was told that this was the sign of an old or bad queen and I should replace her if I see these laying signs.  Even the new sales catalogs talk about feeding your honey bees a medicine to reduce stress, what could be more stressful to the most important bee in the hive than being caught, marked, and possibly clipped.  Terrible in my amatuer opinion.  Thanks. ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beekeeper1756 on July 09, 2010, 09:54:58 am
I have decided to mark my queens just as a means of keeping track of all the changes in my hives.  I originally purchased a marked queen from a very reputable source due to being queenless.  After a few weeks, I saw a queen that was not marked.  The other bees could have chewed off the mark or the bees replaced the marked queen, I don't know.

By marking the queens, it does help me find them easier to be sure.  However, it also lets me know when the bees supercede the queen and replace her.  I trust the bees instincts by and large.  I have purchased four nucs this May.  I have also acquired six other hives but doing cutouts and capturing one swarm.  My feral bees run the gamit of slow layers and slow to build colonies yet some of these feral bees have queens that are laying machines and the colonies grow by leaps and bounds.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 09, 2010, 10:31:16 am
i just don't see the point.  the above reasons aside, the only thing that matters is the performance of the queen.  you can have a new queen that performs poorly, or an old one that is fantastic.  why mark the queen and distract yourself from what you really should be looking for?

it's also very important that a beekeeper be able to spot the queen when they need to.  marked queens are a crutch.

+ i am heavily into lazy beekeeping and cheap beekeeping.   :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Robo on July 09, 2010, 12:03:22 pm
I see some promote marking queens by suggesting "There is no excuse for unmarked queens".

Deja Vu all over again.....  Haven't we been through this about 5 or 6 times already?    I guess I'll respond one final time since this is obviously a shot at me.

My personal experience has been that supercedure/emergency queens can be inferior queens.  Once I eliminated them from my hive management I have had much better wintering success,  far less superceding,  and overall healthier hives.  I know you will want to dissect that last sentence and try to put a bunch of words in my mouth, but I'm just sharing what works for me.  I have no scientific proof, nor do I claim anyone else should solely rely on it.

Yes I'm sure you can get fine supercedure/emergency queens, but once again, my experience has been that even a poor supercedure/emergency queens can look super and have a terrific brood pattern when the weather is great.  But when Fall comes, that is when the good and the poor queens are separated. That is also evident by following the post on this forum. It is also the hardest time to get a replacement queen.  My first goal in beekeeping is overwintering success.

So the bees decide that their queen is inferior for some reason and decide to replace her.   So they raise a new queen from an egg of the failing queen.  Any chances that the queens inferiority is passed to the new queen?

My preferred method to identify if a queen has been replaced is by marking them.  I know some claim it increases supercedure,  but as I stated before, my supercedure rate has decreased overall since I eliminated emergency/supercedure queens,  So my experience is that if it does increase the rate, it is less than with keeping inferior queens.  I regularly have queens that have been marked with paint for 3 years and still functioning fine.  I usually don't let them go beyond that, but after 3 years, seems that the bees don't mind having a marked queen.

I now use numbered disks to keep better records and have had no issues with them either.

We see a lot of folks that try to be so-called "natural", 'low-impact", "organic", or however  they classify themselves, doing walk-away splits.   Well hate to say, that is not natural either, and although the bees are capable of raising an emergency queen,  that doesn't mean it is proficient.  In fact,  I tend to believe supercedure/emergency queens happen far less in feral colonies than most people assume.

I know a large factor in folks using supercedure/emergency queens is the cost.  I'm not suggesting that anyone should buy queens in my statements either.   Hobbyist beekeepers can rear their own queens quite successfully,  that is what I do.

I'm not looking for "good enough" queens.  http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/ (http://robo.bushkillfarms.com/can-you-afford-emergency-queens/)

So I just shared my methods and rationale that work for me.  I'm not trying to convince anyone what they should do, just offering up options to think about.  So go ahead a pick it apart like you do every other time.  I can only say it works for me and I'm sticking with it and will continue to share it with people who want to listen.

For those folks that are relatively new to the forum,  you will find that Mike likes to stir the pot on issues he disagrees with like small cell and marking.  I obviously don't want to speak for other members, but if you look at the members that have been here the longest and/or who are the most active over time, you will see they have learned over time not get involved with Mike's post anymore as they don't like his modus operandi.  It seems that Mike is not content accepting the fact that people have different opinions and methods than he.

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 09, 2010, 12:09:46 pm
Dang Robo can't believe you fell for it ;) :-D :evil:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 09, 2010, 12:58:10 pm
I'll do as the member in question would do, and say "SOMEONE" in the forum, it seems to me that is running out of places in beekeeping forums that will put up with his behavior - I've lived with him not responding to anything I have written him for a long time now and accept that some people are just rude and unappreciative of a venue to interact with others, interesting how patient I am about his lack of common sense. I don't know how many forums someone needs to be booted from or how many places you go from moderator to member - that is usually a bad sign when (for whatever reason) you reduce rank in forums.

I see the "tone of the context" written is often harsher than the "wording" itself - lucky that it is carefully constructed, obviously lots of thought goes into not getting trapped by your own words. But some people are good at shoving JUST hard enough to keep their selves safe according to a forums rules. But I hope that people understand that COLLECTIVE ATTITUDE ISSUES IN POSTS do add up, it doesn't have to be a single violation of rules that get people chopped in any forum, sort of how a single poop doesn't fill up a cesspool, but a whole lot of them do  :-D Speaking generally there of course. Not to mention, we (nor any forum need reason to ban any member) the big difference here is we like our members, deleting them does little good unless that is what they truly strive for.

I don't understand why someone can't construct a post without pointing fingers at people they disagree with? Just write your posts, what is so hard about that. As Robo had said elsewhere recently, if you have comments concerning a posts, REPLY in that post - don't start a new one, just to admonish the post that starts a debate. That's kind of a no brainer to me.

Agreeing to disagree is fine, passionate debate is awesome, but aiming your cross-hairs at other members... not a good idea here.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: tandemrx on July 09, 2010, 03:09:36 pm
I guess I kinda started this with my question a couple days ago, so I will respond (feel a bit attacked for considering marking some queens . . . "tainting" my queen . . . although I appreciate parts of the post for some useful aspects of hive management).

I am the "new" beekeep who is being discussed (3rd year), but given that . . . I do not search every frame for the queen on my inspections.  Far from that.  I am quite happy to see eggs with good brood pattern and close up the hive as soon as I can to not disturb the hive any more than I need to.

Some times I would like to find the queen or will find her incidentally while I am making sure a hive is queenright and haven't seen eggs/larvae yet, but run into her before I do find those eggs and larvae . . . and when I do, I have interest to know when and where she came from as I have limited opportunities to get new queens when one is being replaced, so I can't time my queen replacements to exactly when I see a bad brood pattern or am queenless.  I really don't need the queen to be marked to find her, I only have interest in marking some queens for monitoring purposes.

In this one example I had a poorly laying queen.  Wanted to replace her but it took some time to get a new queen (some times it takes a long time to get responses from queen producers  :)).  I don't really like to pinch the old queen, and wanted an option to move the poorly-producing queen back to the original hive if the new queen is rejected, so I put old queen in a nuc box (Michael Bush recommended this on his web site and I thought it was a great idea, some brood production better than none).

So I get new queen and put old queen in nuc.  Check nuc a week later and all the sudden I have a full frame laying pattern (albiet with some double eggs in cells)

So, I am wondering, did I put the old queen in that nuc or was the old queen superceded and I am dealing with a new queen. 

Only real question is how much resources in time and effort do I want to put into this nuc hive or any queen that I am evaluating.  I am a hobbyist, so whether or not I want to invest time in what was a poorly producing older queen (would not put much effort into her) or new possibly good producing queen is important to me and in this case markings on the old queen may have answered the question for me.

I am also a pharmacist and have spent a good bit of my career evaluating animal toxicology studies.  So I certainly understand animal toxicology and am sensitive to chemicals that may harm animals and to dose response.  But I also know that all items with carcinogenic potential do not produce cancer.  Nor will all chemicals that cause health or pregnancy concerns cause relavent toxicity in all applications (tylenol can easily kill a person and many people die from tylenol toxicity every year, does that mean I won't personally ingest it if I have a headache?).  So I feel comfortable in personally evaluating what I might mark a queen with and the safety of that maneuver to my queen.

Do the natural beekeepers on this forum never smoke their hives?  Tell me there are not toxins and potential adverse effects of spewing smoke into your hive.  There are certainly carcinogens in that smoke.  Certainly many chemials that could cause health and pregnancy concerns.  I do try to limit how much smoke I use, but I will still smoke my hives when I need to.

I appreciate the opinions of the experienced beekeepers on the forum, but don't really like to be attacked for being a beginner beekeeper or being told what I should or shouldn't do based on someones personal evaluation of a products toxicity.

If nothing else I gained great information on handling queens by asking the question and I can see a lot of great use for this infomration whether or not I am using it to mark a queen or just move her to an appropriate place at the appropriate time.

So thanks for all the responses.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Hethen57 on July 09, 2010, 03:53:06 pm
Don't feel bad...I will be marking one of my queens this weekend (and all of mine are marked), not cuz I'm lazy or careless or whatever...I just like to know where my queen is if I happen to pull a frame with her on it, how old she is, whether my hive has changed queens, whatever.  I found a swarm a month ago...I knew it was one of my queens.  I also was able to tell which of my hives had swarmed...so it helps me with information.  I also noticed another hive that had an unmarked queen so they likely either swarmed or superceded.  I record this stuff in my inspection notes and I think it helps me evaluate the hives and I often learn something.  I probably looked for the queen too much at first, but I was learning and enjoying my bees.  It's my hobby, I try to learn and improve at what I am doing and learn what the bees are doing...so it makes my hobby more enjoyable when I randomly see the queen or when a visitor wants to look at the bees and I can easily show them a queen and explain what they are doing. I use two colors so I just alternate and that helps me keep track of their age, by knowing which color was in there last year.  It certainly isn't absolutely necessary (bees can be bees without our intervention), but I don't think it hurts either.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 09, 2010, 03:59:27 pm
hethen57, i think you are right.  mark 'em if you want.  some people have been taught that they must have marked queens.  some people are totally against it.  guess i fall in the middle.  if you are really in need of tracking your queen, you should do it.  most people don't need to and there have been many posts on here about lost/damaged queens while the attempt was being made to mark them.
not worth it to me....maybe worth it to others.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 04:20:07 pm
tandemrx,
My comments were not about anyone in particular, even though some may think that. Conversations go in every direction on certain threads, and many times they initiate thoughts or comments that merit separate threads. You did mention marking queens. But anyone could of passively made mention to marking queens. But just as the question "What color should I paint my hives", the nature of any forum is not anything to do with past conversations, but rather active participation and discussions from current dialog and interaction. Otherwise, we might just all shut up and scan the archive for every repeated question and answer. I thank you for bringing this to the forefront once more. I think my asking "why" one marks queens, is a far cry compared to past discussions.

Thank you for responding.

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 04:32:52 pm
I'll do as the member in question would do, and say "SOMEONE" in the forum, it seems to me that is running out of places in beekeeping forums that will put up with his behavior - I've lived with him not responding to anything I have written him for a long time now and accept that some people are just rude and unappreciative of a venue to interact with others, interesting how patient I am about his lack of common sense. I don't know how many forums someone needs to be booted from or how many places you go from moderator to member - that is usually a bad sign when (for whatever reason) you reduce rank in forums.



Oh John, you certainly have me at a disadvantage. If I respond, I open myself up to attack. If I keep quiet, it drives you crazy and you bring up matters that you asked me not to discuss on this forum. Certainly you have me between two rocks.

But lets get a couple things straight here, even though I think this is a bit personal for the board.

1) I have NEVER been booted from ANY forum, let alone the number you suggest by making it sound as if I am running out of forums. My membership was striped after I came here and refused to go BACK to the Beesource forum as they asked me to do. Not really the picture presented.

2) Yes, I was stripped from being a moderator on another forum. Know why? Because among other things listed, I was posting HERE on beemaster, and did not post enough over there. What a HOOT! I got busy with business and my posts dropped off. And so they came here and actually counted my posts on beemaster, and made that an issue. And now you use that small detail against me. I am laughing my butt off. I lost moderator status on another forum because I was posting on your forum, and you use that against me.... :lau:

So please, you want to send me a PM, I'll respond. But keep the false comments off the forum. I think it may make more than me look bad.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Hemlock on July 09, 2010, 04:49:47 pm
I respectfully reject your premise.

I AM a new beekeeper.
I DO maintain Marked queens.
---however---
I do not do inspections for the sole purpose of finding the actual queen.  Nor is an inspection complete when she is located.  Each frame that is pulled is evaluated for health & productivity.  I wear glasses and look at the percentages of eggs, larva, pupae, drones, pollen, & honey & where they are all located.  Population size, brood pattern, and all queen cups are noted as well; as is condition of equipment.  Plus anything that looks odd or is new to me gets written down too.  

If i don't see the queen i make a note of it then move on to the next hive.  I read somewhere that the bees tell you what they need if you listen close enough.  I never read that marked queen are bad or that once you've found the queen go ahead and ignore everything else.  They never taught us that in the beginners bee class.  Thankfully so...
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 09, 2010, 05:08:39 pm
Gee.. Bjorn DOES see my posts after all, who'da thought it.

Interesting how you suggest my generic use of "SOMEONE" infers you - I'd probably get the same vibes though if I were you. Your use of Stripped and Removed are indeed awful semantic of banned or outcast or shunned or tossed away or many other words and phrases. Gee, I'm honored that although you won't talk to me (which I understand is my fault too) you still choose to use our forum, even if it gets you stripped and as a mod and as a member elsewhere because of you undying allegiance to us - thank you for that, I never knew how dedicated you are - oooops wait a minute, I think I need to lay on my back and laugh a little too  :lau:

I'm sure there were no other reasons involved, nothing that YOU may have been responsible for or at least RAILROADED in some fashion? Gee, coming here sure has a heavy burden for some.

Well, if you are not "running out of forums" and I know there are many out there, then at least your numbers have been marginally reduced by faults "outside" your own doing. Glad you enjoy our little chunk of cyber space - I wonder though what percentage of posting here vs. elsewhere was needed to "strip you" I never thought (nor do I still) think anyone involved to be that shallow, if it is true (and not just your perception of what happened) then that is indeed sad. Everyone in our mod staff belong to all the big forums, I like to think of Beemaster as one of the big ones, but surely not the biggest, but I have NEVER EVER gone post counting to see if anyone has contributed elsewhere and even if I had SURELY I would never even THINK to hold or use that against them - wow.

I don't know Mike, stranger things happen on this planet than I will ever imagine in my wildest thoughts, so I surely can't discount your recount of events - obviously you should know the occurrences concerning your status at forums better than anyone - but usually the guy who gets a bar of soap for Christmas isn't receiving it because people think he collects soap, its because he stinks. Not saying you stink, I've never met you, but maybe, just maybe your charming personality differs from how you perceive it to be.

Thank you for the clarity on the above, Sorry it is "our fault" in "both cases" that you were STRIPPED ( I promise not to use the banned or lowered in rank ever again) I must have used words that inappropriately explained both situations, my bad. Was the outcome the same, seems so though. If you were wronged by other forums (and in one case I surely believe so - but I rarely go to other forums, staying close to home is always a safe bet for me) people often misinterpret my words as sarcastic or Michael Anthony like from Julius Caesar - but these are HONORABLE MEN, so I must say, I too may be wrong and the things I say are meant to jab a little, often in a light-hearted way to the members who follow such soap-operas as these posts tend to be.

Glad though that you could see my post, I was beginning to thing my POST button was broken  :-D

BTW

I think marked queens are great to have, especially if you have non-beekeeps looking at your bees. To them (and you) it saves a lot of time searching and pointing and I'd rather a newbee know which is the queen effortlessly than to make them feel bad they can't spot the little lady! JMHO!!
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 09, 2010, 05:23:00 pm
I like marked queens, but like Kathy am too cheap and lazy to mark them, and they seem to be doing fine without it.
-I would like to know if the queen is replaced
-It is still easier to find the queen when necessary (not very often necessary)

I am not afraid of the toxicological implications.  Plenty of marked queens doing just fine.  Plenty of unmarked queens doing terrible in the world.  I'm not sure what a "tainted queen" is, but if it meant a little spot of paint on her, that don't bother me.

So I'm in the "go for it if you want to" camp.

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 05:47:34 pm
John,
Your correct. I had no problems being a moderator. No riots in the street or anything else. My posts are all recorded for all to see. But since you seem not very convinced, it went like this....

I stopped posting.
They asked me if I was upset with anything.
I said I was extremely busy.
I posted here and there three times over a three week period in late May early June.
I went to post one day, and was not a moderator. I was shocked.
They said I must of been upset with something since I was not posting like usual.
I said, "I wasn't till now".
They mentioned I still was posting on beemaster.
I said that was crap to monitor members on another site. My being a moderator on one site had nothing to do with another.
I clarified I posted there and here on the same three days in late May/early June .
They said that may be true, but I had posted a topic "So tell me what will happen" in regards to a slimed SHB colony. They suggested that would of been better served being posted on their forum as I was a moderator at the time. I said this whole thing was crap. They invited me back as a moderator if I wanted too. I declined and moved on. I'm not playing that crap. And if by being a moderator I give up rights elsewhere, they can have it.

If you need me to clarify the beesource fiasco, I'll be more than willing to discuss. I was temporarily banned for one day. I came here. They asked me back with certain "conditions" in some attempt to support their moderator that screwed up and caused the whole thing to begin with. I said I would not return until I had full privileges. I said in the meantime I would be lending my...cough cough, services to bee master. That I would "consider" coming back at a later time when my limited ban was lifted. That is when it got nasty and they banned me. They did not like the whole "I'll let you know when I'm ready" crap. Seems they forgot the people make the forum, the forum does not make the people. a message every forum owner should repeat. And it's not like you did not benefit from the many folks coming over and the whole crap that was happening at that time. Many people left beesource. not because of me, but for the same reason as me... ;)

And please do not ever underestimate any members allegiance to this or any other forum. I only ever posted on one forum for five years, and had never even considered coming to this forum. Some come and go, and post on many forums. I tend to be old school. I am loyal to one site, until I'm unfairly attacked or can't stand the crap any longer. You may find that a bit hard to swallow, but I bet you have many members who feel that way.

The only reason I still post here is that I was told to take everything with a grain of salt from you. One of your moderators told me there are "good days, and bad days". That sometimes you say stuff that perhaps is better left unresponded. Maybe medications were at play...I can not remember the details. So for my own sake, I completely ignored you. But that seems not to have been a good choice as you have now brought up many past things over and over. Nothing good comes out of the room when you put two type a driver personalities in the room.  ;)



Now do you understand?  ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 06:06:53 pm
My response about my comments being perceived as attacking Robo, is this.....

Robo, does not have the same opinion as most others suggesting they could care less and that it makes no difference. To each their own. Robo wears on his chest everyday, the signature that "There is no excuse for unmarked queens". That unto itself is attacking in nature, perhaps much more than my original post. But I know, strap me up to the whipping pole. By the very nature of mentioning that quote, I am the one attacking.

So let me say that I find it ironic that it's deja vu, when that message is seen each and every day.

The message is clear....There is no reason for unmarked queens. And yet, if I use this quote, then I am attacking an individual. When you stick it out every day, someone may use it for a discussion.

Robo stands on one side and suggests there is no excuse for unmarked queens. It's there for anyone to read. So to suggest I am pointing fingers is a bit much.

I stand on the other side, suggesting there is no excuse for marked queens.

Many are in the middle.

I simply am asking why those who marked their queen did so.

I didn't pull out some long ago quite and attacked someone. I used a quote that is proudly displayed and repeated each and every day, and I used in the topic for discussion. I can't agree that by mentioning it that it suggests "attacking" anyone.

Of course each person makes their own decision. I think it's the quote "There is no excuse for unmarked queens" that is a statement cast in stone not recognizing and respecting other people's choices.

But maybe that's just me. So crack that whip softly...... :deadhorse:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on July 09, 2010, 06:27:34 pm
 :deadhorse:

Now where was it that this was referenced before? Oh yeah, I remember now.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 09, 2010, 06:35:09 pm
Just a final thought. I agree on TYPE a personalities and to remind you of the health issue, it isn't medication it is physical - I have seizures due to spiking brain signals in my frontal lobe, medication does stop the spiking, but no ill effects except slowing my metabolism down and making me fat - ugh.

And no one will disagree we had a surge during the times of your coming here, it does fall into our cyclical bountiful growth in Spring thru fall (stating and Wintering hives) but many members from there came here - no one argues that.

Not blowing my own horn Mike, but I like to think I'm fair, and unlike many forums (concerning all kinds of topics) I listen to the advice of my staff (lordy that sounds so possessive - I hate that MY word so much) but the mods here keep me in check, I'm a handful at times, I know that, but when you have a team that works this well, you have to respect it and thank your lucky stars. You sure don't kick them out, force them to leave, give them guff to make them look foolish to the members or anything of that sort - maybe THAT is why you are here - just a thought! Peace and truce flag waving! Now... where did I put my meds?
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: bigbearomaha on July 09, 2010, 06:46:57 pm
On the topic of marking queens...

in my own little two cent opinion, I don't mark them.

I do indeed practice the "WWFD" (What Would Feral Do) and I have yet to see a feral queen emerge marked.  Either from a swarm cell or a supercedure cell.

Not all queen cells are from failure queens. (failure here meaning to me not laying at all or 'properly')  In the absence or diminishing of queen pheromone  I have not seen 'bad' queens result from them in great numbers  (or small numbers for all that)  unless the genetics in the egg were 'bad' to begin with (back to that failed queen) I see it as a question of timing and nutrition as to the quality of the emerging queens.

All of this to say,  I don't see a reason to mark them except to make locating one more easily.  Now, to be honest, if you want to be able to find your queens more easily, go ahead, mark em, it's your hive. It doesn't matter what I think or anyone else for that matter.

I think that beginning beekeepers try to look for the queen more frequently because it part of that 'newbee' experience.  They want to do all those things they read about in the books and on forums like these.  Once they are comfortable with the inner workings of the hive and that 'newbee' time frame has subsided, hunting for the queen takes on less excitement and is relegated to it's proper interest level.

enjoy the bees

Big Bear

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: kom on July 09, 2010, 07:15:27 pm
I am a brand new member to this forum, I'd been reading posts as a guest for around the last week then last night decided to register in order to respond to tandemrx question about marking queens.
It seems everyone who posts here are very helpful and everything seems good natured, except bjornbee!!!

In fact his posts are so inflammatory, bizarre, and outright confrontational that I considered not joining here. I'm glad tandemrx and the moderator have confronted him but I doubt it will do any good. Bjorn you attack peoples opinions - which is what a forum is for!!! If people were interested in facts they would just read books. You have got to be the most paranoid and insecure person that I've ever seen post on a forum.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 07:49:27 pm
Why, thank you Kom.  ;)

 :idunno:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: jclark96 on July 09, 2010, 07:59:24 pm
I recently marked my queens for a few reasons; experience, determine age, and supercedure. I forced a swarm from a good hive, and ended up with 4 hives. So with marking my queens, I can keep track of their age, and next year when I don't want swarms I will be able to tell if the swarmed or superceded.

We could do a tag team match, but Bjorn is by himself. ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 09, 2010, 08:02:01 pm
We could do a tag team match, but Bjorn is by himself. ;)

When you got enough lined up on your side for someone to step up and be first, I'll decide if I need one hand or two....  :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 09, 2010, 08:36:41 pm
be nice boys.

kom, you ain't seen nothing yet...but, even the spats can be informative.  some of us, and i am in this category, tend to be combative by nature.   :evil:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: hardwood on July 09, 2010, 10:39:30 pm
Awww, try just taking it with a grain of salt...After all, he's just teething :-D

Confrontational yes...but the info makes Bjorn's posts worth the read for sure!

Scott
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: buzzbee on July 09, 2010, 10:50:13 pm
As far as marking queens.
many of the people on this forum come from Africanized bee areas. Do you doubt the justification for marking queens in these areas? i believe it's the law in Florida if I'm correct. So it would be advocating breaking the law by not having marked queens.there is rhyme and reason for marking queens in some circumstances. I don't think you can  paint every scenario with a broad brush.
And as far as Robo, It's in his signature line, he doesn't start every post with the Quote.Most people don't read every signature line.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 09, 2010, 10:55:13 pm
KOM:

In all fairness, one more post like the one above and you won't have a 4th post in our forum. Not the right attitude to have "walking in the door" anywhere and surely not said as a seasoned member would have expressed him/herself.

Watch it, Bjorn can handle himself fine, it's our job to handle the forum though and your post will not be repeat against any member here in these forums, hope you understand that.

Beemaster
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 10, 2010, 12:08:38 am
As a new guy, that has done more reading than posting, because I am trying to learn, I love Bjorns threads, because it brings out both sides of an issue. Threads like these are great for new guys, everyone is passionate about their position, and as far as I can tell, everyone here behaves themselves, after 20 years on forums, this is a nice place to learn without having to defend your existence. Keep the debates coming, they provoke thought.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 10, 2010, 12:11:32 am
We could do a tag team match, but Bjorn is by himself. ;)

When you got enough lined up on your side for someone to step up and be first, I'll decide if I need one hand or two....  :-D
I will try to be good
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 01:45:35 pm
As far as marking queens.
many of the people on this forum come from Africanized bee areas. Do you doubt the justification for marking queens in these areas? i believe it's the law in Florida if I'm correct. So it would be advocating breaking the law by not having marked queens.there is rhyme and reason for marking queens in some circumstances. I don't think you can  paint every scenario with a broad brush.
And as far as Robo, It's in his signature line, he doesn't start every post with the Quote.Most people don't read every signature line.

Doubt the justification for marking queen in AHB areas?

No one bit. I mentioned this in the first post.

Interesting angle. So lets discuss.

For the record, I attended the conference on AHB at Penn State in 2006. I was also involved in rewriting the current Pa state apiary law, as well as the "Best Beekeeping Practices".

I have no problem with marking queens, and see benefit for especially marking them in AHB areas.

BUT.......

I also have ordered every marking pen on the market today and sold by supply stores. They come with warnings of carcinogenic material and a host of health issues. I have obtained MSDS from products and not one manufacturer will go on record as suggesting their product is approved for bee applications.

I have posted an article previous that I had published on this matter.

Bottom line is this.....Not one product is specifically made for marking bees, where you can fully obtain in writing the testing, application for bees or anything else to warrant justification for marking bees with their product.

And I do not buy into the whole....I mark queens and I do not have a problem. They marketed many products to be used by beekeepers over the years, and they all come back later with devastating impacts on queen health and colony health.

I have seen everything from testor paint, nail polish, to modeling super glue applied to queens backs. I challenge ANYONE to paint an 18 inch disk on your back with these same products and see how long you walk around until some irritating rash develops.

And that old "I use water based nontoxic" products. Means NOTHING!

WD-40.....kills bees. Safe and approved hairspray.....kills bees. My kids "water based nontoxic" hair shampoo....kills bees. Just because a product says safe, only cooresponds to the product application and test as per instructed on the label.

My gripe with marking queens is that over the years, we have been sold this bill of good by the bee industry that marking queens is a good thing. Yet to this day, not one product has ever been fully tested, approved or made for marking queens.

So when the state decided to start talking about mandatory marking queens if AHB ever arrived, I started asking questions about the very products they want me to slap on the back of my queens. And what I found was not reassuring to say the least.

I think many people want to keep chemicals out of their hives. Yet, we as an industry seemingly go along with the idea of marking queens, although no product has been tested safe.

So when someone suggest marking queens, and the products being sold by the supply houses contain such ingredients as cyanide, I am not bashful about attempts in killing the idea that beekeepers should daily, be forced fed the idea that marking queens is a good thing.

If we are to be forced to mark queens, or follow industry leaders and supply companies, who suggest marking queens is good regardless of the reasoning.....we should at least demand tested, safe, and approved products to do so.

Until then, I see no reason good enough to offset the potential damage you cause the queen by using the products we have been sold up till this point.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: buzzbee on July 10, 2010, 04:07:02 pm
With the queen being the member with the colony longest,perhaps we should advocate not smoking the hive for inspections,not using bee quick or honey robber and definitely do not use mite away,as  she would be the most affected as she is there long term. I doubt any of this stuff was intended for repeated use or approved for that matter.How many times would a queen be exposed to all that noxious stuff over a couple year period?
  In making the comparison to painting a persons skin,a tattoo may be just as fair of a comparison.And I have known many painters that have lived to a ripe old age,produced healthy children and been exposed to fresh paint on the skin on a daily basis.And been exposed to the fumes as they were painting everyday.
 And I hope that every time someone eats a hot dog, hamburger or piece of bacon,they are concerned about the Nitrates(read carcinogen known to cause cancer)that was used to process this stuff. Given due credit though,the nitrates will kill you slower than the botulism.
  Just because something is not approved for usage does not necessarily mean it will cause harm. Nor does approval always make it safe.
Just as it has not been proven safe for the queen to mark it,I do not think it has proven detrimental either.
If electricity was invented in a alarmist world of today, it would never be allowed to be marketed to the general public.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: CAHighwind on July 10, 2010, 04:44:19 pm
As a former medical professional, the idea of trying to imply human skin with paint on it as an analog for the keratenous exoskeleton of an insect is profoundly flawed.  The closest thing on the human body to the exoskeleton of an insect would be the fingernail.  Last time I checked, women have been painting those since time in memorium without issue, for years on end.  Besides, who really thinks a little dot of paint on the queen is anymore damning than keeping the entire colony in a hive that is, in most cases, COVERED with paint?  Yeah, sure, there isn't paint in nature, but bees in nature also aren't kept in little boxes, cracked open every so often and rifled through by humans.  If you want to mark your queens, mark them.  If you don't... well, don't.  I have both marked and unmarked queens.  This all starts to seem rather silly.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 04:56:58 pm
Highwind....perhaps you should google about nail and finger damage in the nail salon industry, all from "approved" products. Seems many things left on long enough will eat through the nails, probably as you suggest, on a scale compared to the skin of a bee. (Hint...MMA is one product used for years before the damage caused the usage to be prohibited. So to say women have been using products for hundreds of years with no damage, based on nothing penetrating the nail layer, is also flawed.)

Buzz,
Interesting you use electricity as an example. So from the point taken as compared to bee products, because you can stick a plug in an outlet, you should be able to stick your finger in just the same? Or because I can shoot the baby shampoo in my kids eyes, I could do the same to the bees with no damage.

Your rationale about painters, is a bit off. On average, smokers, and some in certain career fields, have shorter lifespans as compared to other people. Holding up as example as proof that damage ever happened, by that one smoker who lived to a hundred, would be humorous. There is much documentation about certain career Fields having impacts on lifespan. So it may not be about whether something outright kills something. It may be the difference in the overall quality and longevity of the queen. And certainly anyone around long enough in bees, all almost all agree, that queens today are far less quality than in years past. So looking at everything may just be a good thing. And certainly should not be shoved aside as "alarmist" in nature.  

In light of the many products sold to beekeepers over the years that we now know did damage, I may think someone being called an alarmist, might be a good thing.  ;)

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 05:04:03 pm
Stupid cat..... :roll:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 10, 2010, 05:07:57 pm
It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat :-x to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 05:12:36 pm
It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat :-x to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: iddee on July 10, 2010, 06:24:00 pm
>>>>And I hope that every time someone eats a hot dog, hamburger or piece of bacon,they are concerned about the Nitrates(read carcinogen known to cause cancer)<<<<

Yes. pay close attention to the above. It could save your life. When this was first discovered, it was on ALL the news. Then, some smart aleck asked "how much?". It turned out that if you were to eat 250 lb. of bacon daily for 350 years, "or vice-versa, I forget", you would get cancer.

As for queen marking with dirty chemicals, why not just use a soldering iron and brand them? I've never heard of a cow dieing from being branded.

In conclusion, wouldn't it be wonderful if marking or not marking a queen was the worst problem facing beeks today?

BUT, it is something to discuss, to pass the time away, and it helps with the post count.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 10, 2010, 07:03:18 pm
It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat :-x to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  ;)
You keep bring up this thread just to get people to argue under the so called discussion thing.
.Re: how do you unwind?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 03:19:57 AM » Quote 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come here and rub people the wrong way..... 
 
 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: asprince on July 10, 2010, 07:22:13 pm
I have a difficult time finding the queen in a large hive, so I just look for eggs and larvae. That being said, recently, a friend and I were going through four very large hives that we were planning to split. On the first one, we immediately spotted the queen. "Let's mark her so she will be easier to find when we do the split next week." We did and my heart almost stopped when it took her several seconds to start moving again after we marked her. We decided not to mark the others. When we did the split the next week, she was fine and easy to find. That was my first experience with queen marking. I like a marked queen, but I do not know if my nerves will let me mark any more.


Steve
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 07:32:04 pm
It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat :-x to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  ;)
You keep bring up this thread just to get people to argue under the so called discussion thing.
.Re: how do you unwind?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 03:19:57 AM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come here and rub people the wrong way.....  
 
 


This certainly is not the only often repeated subject on this forum.

And to take my words in jest from a post on coffee house forum is also humorous.

Not sure if your jabbing for a reaction, or just playing the role of antagonist. But it seems this is about the fourth time you take a swipe, while complaining about another person.

Who gets to determine what is an argument Irwin. People post their conflicting views, which almost always could be called an "argument". I see nothing but a discussion. One that can be debated, discussed, analyzed, and called many different things. People post on this thread by their own choice. But can we at least quit chiming in and suggesting someone is doing something you do not like.

Sitting back suggesting "Who cares, everyone should do what they want", is not really what a forum is based on. It's a place to exchange ideas, debate on merit, discuss in passion, and allow others to see the motives and ideas of the next person.

Keep jabbing all you want. I'm not biting.  ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Sparky on July 10, 2010, 08:25:19 pm
I enjoy reading some of Mikes post that ask the quesion why just because it sparks the answers that would sometimes never be thought about. Have to admit that when I started to keep bees it was the fascination with looking for the queen and it was easier to find her with the untrained eye. I have had one problem with marking one that the paint marker went ballistic after it was activated and I painted just about every part on her Majesty that was not to be covered. It is nice now to see her quickly as the frames are pulled, so to keep her in a safe area, if you have to do some dirty work to straighten out a condition in the hive. Sometimes we see queens on frames that have great brood and the time just does not make it practical to keep the hive open any longer than necessary so we close it up and move on without marking. The age thing is one of the better reasons that I will continue to mark them even if it takes a year off her life, so that even if she is performing well after two seasons she can be put into a nuc and replaced with a young queen to carry the strong hive through the winter and be less likely to swarm.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: FRAMEshift on July 10, 2010, 08:58:04 pm

I do indeed practice the "WWFD" (What Would Feral Do) and I have yet to see a feral queen emerge marked.  Either from a swarm cell or a supercedure cell.
Big Bear
I agree with WWFD, but if you want to take the bees' perspective, you would have to say that feral queens ARE marked very clearly.... by pheromone.    No, you haven't seen that marking, but the bees see it just fine. 

This matters if you as a beek want to simulate what the feral bees do, which is to swarm with their queen.  If you do a split and want to take the old queen along for the ride, you have to find her.  Is this worth marking the queen with paint?  I don't think so because I usually can find her.  But I can see that someone who wanted to simulate a swarm or pinch a bad queen might like to make that easier.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: CAHighwind on July 10, 2010, 09:16:04 pm
Problem is, you can Google ANYTHING and find that it causes cancer.  Heck, the EPA is trying to tell us that CO2 now is toxic waste, never mind the fact it comes out of our noses every minute of every day.  Does anyone here know a female that has had her fingers fall off or succumb to cancer known for a fact to have been caused from simply wearing fingernail polish these days?  And sure, I'm sure you can find some really fun things in fingernail polishes in some countries, but here?  No, sorry, I'm not going to fall for fear-mongering propaganda against nail polish for Pete's sake.  And again, comparing a manicurist that breathes that in it's liquid, fumigating form for 20 years hardly compares with a bee having a dried dot of paint on her back for 2 to 5 years.  Apples to oranges regardless.  A bee's exoskeleton is nowhere near as porous or reactive to things as human skin. 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: hardwood on July 10, 2010, 09:28:30 pm
I've worn fingernail polish for years without effect :-D

Scott
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: sarafina on July 10, 2010, 09:28:45 pm

So a new beekeeper gets a marked queen. This sets in motion a few actions seen over and over again.

1) The new beekeeper will look for the marked queen upon almost every visit into the hive. See eggs, see larvae, see everything else....does not matter. The inspection is not complete until the queen is found. After all, with a marked queen, it is supposed to be much easier...right?

Ok, so I am from an AHB area so I guess I get a "bye" on my reasons....   :-D

But I found the above statement to be an exaggeration.  Over and over?  Occasionally would be more accurate.  I never once bothered to look for my queen my first year as long as I saw larvae.  Yes, it was exciting to find her if she was on the frame I was inspecting, but to say that "over and over" people believe an inspection is not complete until they found the queen and would dig through 2 boxes to do so is stretching it a bit.  Or maybe I just missed those posts.   ;)

Now the one time I did have to dig though 2 boxes to find the hot momma (and not hot in a good way) I was sure thankful they hadn't superceded her and she was still marked because I have never been in such a cloud of angry bees (they were AHB hybrids).

As to your argument that the chemicals harm the bees - until there is a study showing that to be the case then your argument against it is no stronger than those for it.  Just because the chemicals have not been approved for bees and the MSDS says they are toxic does not mean it harms the queen.  Toxicity is always a function of concentration, duration and method of exposure and only an actual study can determine the effects.  If you want to go for the emotional argument, then I think you have won that one LOL.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 10, 2010, 09:48:46 pm
Problem is, you can Google ANYTHING and find that it causes cancer.  Heck, the EPA is trying to tell us that CO2 now is toxic waste, never mind the fact it comes out of our noses every minute of every day.  Does anyone here know a female that has had her fingers fall off or succumb to cancer known for a fact to have been caused from simply wearing fingernail polish these days?  And sure, I'm sure you can find some really fun things in fingernail polishes in some countries, but here?  No, sorry, I'm not going to fall for fear-mongering propaganda against nail polish for Pete's sake.  And again, comparing a manicurist that breathes that in it's liquid, fumigating form for 20 years hardly compares with a bee having a dried dot of paint on her back for 2 to 5 years.  Apples to oranges regardless.  a bee's exoskeleton is nowhere near as porous or reactive to things as human skin.  

Fear mongering propaganda...dang, I thought we were discussing an issue.

I bet it was fear mongering when the first person suggested that certain past widely used illegal off-lable chemicals not be used in the hives. Of course, now we realize that is was not fear-mongering, it was fact.

Funny thing is I simply ask for someone to show proof or supply a company willing to go on the record that their product be used for bees. I made the phone calls, I asked the question. Not one will state it so.

So I strike up a conversation that perhaps everything from testors paint, nail polish, and modeling super-glue, may be a topic for discussion, and it turns into "fear-mongering propaganda" statements.

10 years ago, I heard the same thing about the massive amounts of illegal off-label chemicals being used in the industry. Today through CCD testing of comb, and actually crawling out of the dark neanderthal position that beekeeper seem to remain, that those chemicals were doing damage.

I also hear the same from farmers after beekeepers try to suggest the damage being done to the bees by everything from pesticides, herbicides, fungicides, etc. And it is classic that the farmers do what some do here...stand behind the label, and make claims of "proof there is damage" and deny that they can not possibly be part of the problem. After all, the label says "bee friendly" in some form. They suggest that since the EPA approved it, it can not possible be doing damage. I wouldn't put too much into approved anything from the EPA.

But we DO know that fungicides in particular, has dire consequences once mixed with other chemicals. Since I do not think the average women wearing nail polish soaks her fingers in acid treatments, or is  exposed to chemicals on the levels we know bees are, the whole "what's good for a women's nails is good for bees" is certainly not equal in any manner.

So we have farmers claiming beekeepers are running around crying wolf and denying their chemicals are part of the problem, and we have beekeepers doing the same.  So slap on that paint, super glue and whatever else. Nobody ever proved damage. And those farmers will claim the same.

My next door neighbor who applies massive amounts of chemicals, also claims that he is doing nothing wrong. He claims every week when that lawn care truck pulls up that if it were bad for the environment, there would be no way that they would allow them to come and spray as they do. Really sad.

Funny thing is....nothing ever gets solved or improved such as chemicals without some well founded fear mongering and someone making it an issue.

I expect these statements. it's good to get them out in the open. Many still today say smoking never effected their health. Afterall, they smoked for so many years, and they have not died yet. But it usually takes  an eye opening experience for some to change. I never said you should not be able to smoke (or mark queens) but please don't try to suggest that it does not harm anything. I can show you many products that this same claim was made, only to be found out later when actually tested, that is was detrimental. And that...is not fear-mongering. That is fact.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: bigbearomaha on July 10, 2010, 09:49:37 pm
Quote
you would have to say that feral queens ARE marked very clearly.... by pheromone.

You are correct.   I know what a queen looks like,  I know what to look for.   I don't feel a pressing urge to find her 'easily'  Maybe  I just like the sport of tracking her down every once in a blue moon just to keep the queen spotting skills in shape.

Quote
But I can see that someone who wanted to simulate a swarm or pinch a bad queen might like to make that easier.

Pretty much as I said, if that's what one wants to do is mark for easy finding, go right ahead.  it's your hive.
 I don't 'need' to mark a queen to find her if I want to do a split or identify her for any other reason.

simply because one doesn't mark queens doesn't automatically mean they don't do splits or otherwise.  It just makes the hunt that more exciting.

 ;)

Big Bear
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: specialkayme on July 11, 2010, 12:04:07 am
I'm not down for marking queens all the time, mainly because I'm lazy, but I do prefer to have them marked. If I buy a queen, I ask for it marked. If I'm going to mark one queen, I mark them all while I'm at it. It's easier to see her so I'm extra careful putting that frame back in (crushing a queen between two frames once and you'll look every time :)). I like to know if they are superseding or swarming, but I don't HAVE to know. All in all, piece of mind is great.

As far as the toxicity argument goes, last I checked beekeepers were marking queens for centuries. We haven't heard anything about decreased life yet. Of course, that doesn't mean that it doesn't decrease life. My point though, is it's great to read all the information, and once someone can show that it is dangerous, I'll consider something else. Until then, the pros outweigh the cons (at least to me).

And yes, I was one of those beginner beeks who didn't stop until they saw the queen, but that's what I learned in beginner classes. That isn't to say that I didn't look for eggs or laying pattern, as that was always more important, but I was taught that you need to find the queen when you open it up. But then I was also taught that you need to find the queen once a week at a minimum durring spring swarm season, just to make sure she didn't fly the coup. It wasn't until my fourth or fifth year that I got too lazy (and tired of getting stung for being inside the hive too long), and decided to only look for eggs and laying pattern. Now, if I find the queen, awesome. If not, whatever. They are doing good and will continue to do good without me (most of the time).
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 11, 2010, 12:14:11 am
It's just some one trying to PUSH their agenda down our throat :-x to mark are not too mark who Care's do what you want it's your bees

Why is a discussion about the pro/con issues, ramifications, consequences or any other opinion, seen as "Pushing" one's agenda.

The bee forum by it's very existence, is a place where people come together and discuss issues, opinions, observations, and experiences.

If it came down to what you label it, John should just close up shop and we should all go home....  ;)
You keep bring up this thread just to get people to argue under the so called discussion thing.
.Re: how do you unwind?
« Reply #13 on: June 29, 2010, 03:19:57 AM » Quote  

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I come here and rub people the wrong way.....  
 
 


This certainly is not the only often repeated subject on this forum.

And to take my words in jest from a post on coffee house forum is also humorous.

Not sure if your jabbing for a reaction, or just playing the role of antagonist. But it seems this is about the fourth time you take a swipe, while complaining about another person.

Who gets to determine what is an argument Irwin. People post their conflicting views, which almost always could be called an "argument". I see nothing but a discussion. One that can be debated, discussed, analyzed, and called many different things. People post on this thread by their own choice. But can we at least quit chiming in and suggesting someone is doing something you do not like.

Sitting back suggesting "Who cares, everyone should do what they want", is not really what a forum is based on. It's a place to exchange ideas, debate on merit, discuss in passion, and allow others to see the motives and ideas of the next person.

Keep jabbing all you want. I'm not biting.  ;)
You did I'm done see ya :evil:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 11, 2010, 12:19:01 am
I've worn fingernail polish for years without effect :-D

Scott
:jawdrop: :lau: :lau:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: buzzbee on July 11, 2010, 12:32:04 am
I guess comparing human skin to the honeybee exoskeleton as highwinds points out is okay as far as painting something.Even though they are not the same thing.
If there is fear mongering,it is stating that because these companies have not proven these items as bee safe or bee approved ,that ultimately it must be unsafe.
  That was my point with the comparison to electricity.
As far as testes,they make model paint,why would they wish to prove it safe for bees.that does not prove it's harmful.I wouldn't spend the money on it either.
 Has any one documented that queens die or are harmed other than by handling for marking?
Powdered sugar hasn't been tested by the sugar company as safe for a mite treatment,but evidently people have had success with it.
Water is a harmful substance if handled improperly.
  Is anyone treating against foulbrood or nosema,even if the bees aren't afflicted? You know,fumagilin in the spring,just in case?Terramycin,just in case? This would bother me much more than marking queens.And i think these items were proven"safe for bees".
  Just for the record,my queens are not marked,but thats because i just don't feel like it.And I surely do not belittle the guy that wants his queen marked. Especially a beginner that would like assistance in learning to spot queens.
 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 11, 2010, 01:05:47 am
I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS

(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5075/queenstamp.jpg) (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/queenstamp.jpg/)

  :brian:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 11, 2010, 08:46:23 am

 Has any one documented that queens die or are harmed other than by handling for marking?
Powdered sugar hasn't been tested by the sugar company as safe for a mite treatment,but evidently people have had success with it.
Water is a harmful substance if handled improperly.
  

Not sure anyone really ever looked into it. We just do not know. The only thing I know for sure is not one manufacturer will go on record and acknowledge that it should be used for bees.

The powdered sugar comparison should be looked at like this. If you powder sugar your bees, at least it is with a product that you probably feel safe also eating. Marking a queen with testors paint (or anything else including super-glue) and doing the same equivalent marking on yourself (an 18 inch disc would be a good comparison) is something I have yet to find any volunteers. I'm betting you enjoy the powdered sugar and no side effects. With the 18 inch paint disk on your back, I bet we have complications after awhile. Of course I don't think the exoskeleton of the bee is as impervious as some may suggest.

For the record, here is a partial list of some of the ingredients in one of the marking pens sold by major suppliers.... The paint product contains such chemicals as VMP naphtha, Ethyl Benzene, Xylene, High Boiling Aliphatic Hydrocarbon, Anti Flooding Agents, Diarylide Yellow pigment, and Copper Phthalocyanide pigment.

Buzz, since I used your quote above, I should state the following is not about your comments.....

I would think that beekeepers would be a group most skeptical of the products being offered for placement into their hives. Especially with the history of the products marketed, and approved, which always come back later to be a detriment to the bees. I would think beekeepers would be cautious and demand products that are absolutely known to be safe, without guessing or rationalization. I was wrong.

By I guess we are no different than what we see with the homeowner who feels the need to kill every clover, dandelion, pest, and insect in his backyard in some attempts to keep his yard "easier" to handle, for that little postage stamp plot, while thinking he is living the Utopian dream. Or that farmer who needs bees because there are no native pollinators due to some reason that he just can't grasp.

I've looked into the products being offered. And until I started "fear-mongering" awhile back, seems nobody gave much though about a product we slap on the backs of our queens. I offered this topic for discussion, but it seems we still have a long way to go for some, who will not even consider the possibility that it COULD be damaging our queens. They will buy the marketing hype, void of any actually testing, and deny from what I think is common sense. That common sense includes the understanding that maybe NOT running around with a 18 inch disc on your back is reasonable, and in line with perhaps not asking the same of your queens. To me, that is common sense.

Funny thing is, I sell lots of queens to people who killed a queen trying to mark her, or had one fly away while handling her. Maybe I should promote marking queens...now that would be an agenda!  :roll:



Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: VolunteerK9 on July 11, 2010, 10:36:52 am
I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS

(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5075/queenstamp.jpg) (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/queenstamp.jpg/)

  :brian:

Would that soy ink be from organically grown soybeans, pollinated by SC, treatment free naturally mite resistant honeybees and stamped by an all natural rubber stamp produced in a free trade country or would Walmart's Equate brand suffice?
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 11, 2010, 10:55:34 am
K9,    :-D



Don't even get me started on the carbon footprint that stamp would create.  :roll: You have shipping of the raw materials from around the world to the point of manufacturing, the shipping of the product to your home, the packaging material and the associated industry to supply package material, the invoice and associated costs of the financial industry to process the credit card, trucking and possibly airline costs and so on. Let alone the soy production costs and processing, from the farmer who produces the soybeans, to the plant making the soy ink. And heaven help us if the unions are involved in any way. ;)

I figure the damage of one stamp probably comes in at 4 penquins, one polar bear, three bats, and half dozen frogs.  :-D

All to mark a queen to see her better.........

:lau:

Best part.....this all from a beekeeper who probably says he is "natural" in his approach, and "thinks" he is helping the environment from his keeping of bees.  :roll: (relax John, I'm not referring to you.  ;)  )

In fact this is humor...right?
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 11, 2010, 10:56:56 am
I think I have the SOLUTION. All you need is SOY INK and THIS

(http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/5075/queenstamp.jpg) (http://img707.imageshack.us/i/queenstamp.jpg/)

  :brian:

That is disturbing, on at least a couple levels... :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: bigbearomaha on July 11, 2010, 11:12:23 am
There are a couple of things  I think relate directly to the practices and materials we use in everything we do, including working with honey bees.

Ideals and practicality.

We all have ideals, of some sort or another.  Something we think would work 'the best if...' a certain material is used, a certain process is used, etc...  We all have things we strive to do or make just a certain way because we think it is the 'best' we can do or get.

This has to be taken in contrast however to practicality.  While using a certain material or product might be 'the best' in our eyes, we have to determine how we use or implement on how accessible is it, how affordable is it, is it really what we think it is or is there something we don't know that may change opinion of it.

sometimes, practicality pushes us to make adjustments or 'settle' for those things we are not what we think of as the 'best' but only second best or next down the line in our perceived quality.

When I see someone say things like in this thread, I see someone expressing an ideal they hold and trying to determine publicly how practical it is.

While one person sees the topic as an ideal, another person may hold a different opinion, not seeing it as an ideal or seeing it in a lesser value instead.

it's ultimately just a theoretical discussion.  No one on this forum can MAKE others do what they think should be done. it's only a matter of expressing ones opinion.

However, being a public forum, we expect communication to happen in a way that is respectful of others and everyone elses ideas as well, so when one person makes a statement of "Everyone should do this thing this way or else"  it comes off as rude and/or insulting to many other people.

bjorn may not express himself in a way that comes off as well as others might like,  I have been accused of the same myself at times, but he isn't demanding that everyone change to doing things the way he sees it, and if he is, so what?  how on earth would he ever enforce it?

Sometimes to have a 'true' comprehensive discussion, unpopular or unpleasant things must be introduced to the discussion as well to keep all things in consideration.

of course, there are always the pot stirrers who like to get folks wound up just because they will fall for it.  That can be fun too. heh heh.


All in all, I think you should handle your bees and your bee yards they way you want to and if you can pick up an idea or tactic from seeing what someone else says or does, more power to you.

I am now through overstating the obvious here and return you to your regularly scheduled thread.

Big Bear


Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: iddee on July 11, 2010, 11:20:43 am
>>>>bjorn may not express himself in a way that comes off as well as others might like,  Ihave been accussed of the same myself at times, but he isn't demanding that everyone change to doing things the way he sees it,<<<<

Thank You, Big Bear....

Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 11, 2010, 11:35:12 am

Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.

Sort of like a bone marrow transplant  :-P
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Irwin on July 11, 2010, 11:37:26 am

Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.

Sort of like a bone marrow transplant  :-P
:lau: :lau:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 11, 2010, 11:55:32 am
That made me laugh..... :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Jim134 on July 11, 2010, 11:57:59 am

Bjorn has a lot of great knowledge to share, and is willing to share it, even if his mode of delivery is questionable at times. I think the resulting rewards are well worth the pain of receiving the info.

Sort of like a bone marrow transplant  :-P


           LOL


     BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 12, 2010, 10:04:41 am
Ok, lets talk about affects of marking queens.  You say that it is bad, but why?

Smoking causes health problems that were obvious but not acknowledged.  But an occasional pipe or cigar doesn't cause any problems. (or I hope not, I inhale a lot of campfire smoke!!)

Excessive pesticide and fertilizer use on lawns causes problems (runoff problems mostly that I'm aware of) even if not acknowledged.  But occasional and responsible use of pesticides has no ill effects, except for the wasps or the earwigs I'm trying to exterminate.

What are some of the side affects of marking queens are you saying that there is from the chemical use? (other than bumbling beeks crushing queens or queens flying off) 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 12, 2010, 10:28:44 am
Scads,
It's not about proof that damage is done. It's about not knowing if damage IS being done.

I listed some of the ingredients in one of the marking pens sold on the market on a previous post in this thread. Look up some of those ingredients, and then tell me how safe it would be just based on the ingredients. I would double-dare you any day to allow these product to come in contact with your skin (or nails...your choice) and be applied for the rest of your life.

I looked at the ingredients, I asked for the MSDS for the products, and discussed this with the manufacturers. Not one will suggest that it should be applied to the backs of queens.

It's not about proof that damage is done. I don't have a million dollar lab to look into this. And to date, these products have not been tested or approved for bee application. So we just do not know what, or if, damage is happening.

But I find it amazing the rationale of some, who think nothing of applying everything from acrylic paint to superglue to the backs of queens. On the surface it seems wrong. Not knowing it to be safe and tested, may suggest caution, or at least a discussion into the possibilities may seem worthy.

We certainly know today, as compared to just a few short years ago, that the beehive is a complete working organism being effected by compounding issues with chemicals. Chemicals build up, possible coming in contact with other chemicals (and some out of our control), making the possibilities endless in what effects bees, with some combinations deadly.

Instead of beekeepers asking "show me proof that damage is being done" we should as beekeepers be demanding from the products we purchase.."Show me proof that NO damage is being done".

We have had studies and clear proof that the use of Coumophos is detrimental to queens. And yet, the product is still being sold to beekeepers. So just because it is on the market, you should not put blind trust in the marketing or previous "manufacturer" testing of products. We are a small sliver of an industry. We lack the resources, funding, and ability to look into some of these issues. So we will continue to be sold known detrimental products, until we either educate ourselves better to what we are placing in our hives, or change the products by simple supply/demand dynamics of the market place.

One of the paint pen manufacturers was very proud of the number of units sold via bee supply houses. Only when I asked about testing and if they openly would go openly on the record about their products being as such, did they get very defensive and the conversation ended abruptly. The last thing I want to do is possibly cause detrimental damage to another beekeepers hives, by being a surrogate salesmen, pushing such products, by the very nature of promoting marking queens. What has happened over the years is the casual promotion of the procedure of marking queens, to boost the sales of products through bee supply companies, which are out to make a buck.

Like I said, show me a product with proof of it's safeness, and I may very well promote marking also. But as it now, beekeepers are left buying a host of various products, and none tested or shown to be safe.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: winginit on July 12, 2010, 01:25:16 pm
When I first read about plasticell foundation, I thought, you gotta be kidding.

I'm a strategic planner in the water industry (municipal potable and wastewater) and my boyfriend is a geneticist working in EPA research. In fact, EPA doesn't begin to do enough (my opinion, not my boyfriend's!). There are an estimated 80,000 chemicals being released into ground water that haven't been tested in any sort of meaningful way. We actually don't even know how many. But the good news is that probably less than 1% are a problem. LOL. It's like the old marketing question, "I know that half my marketing is useless, but I don't know which half."

So to the subject at hand. We have no idea if the ink is a problem. It could be a big problem or none at all. Of course, what about the plastic bags we use to feed? Look up PFOAs and BPAs. Those are probably pretty bad chemicals--human healthwise--and have actually made it to the EPA's chemicals of concern list (after LOTS of studies--the head of the National Science Foundation says she doesn't have enough evidence to declare that BPAs are cancerous, but she doesn't use plastic in HER microwave anymore). Ziploc advertises that they don't have BPAs, but generic brands are questionable. And the resin on the nails I use to assemble hives? I'm adding all kinds of unknown chemicals, most of which I'm sure are harmless. But none of which are likely to be tested. As a country and a species, we are rapidly contaminating our ground water (which can't be remediated except at astronomical cost) so odds aren't good that we're going to spend much money or time studying chemicals we put on bees.

My BF studies insects a bit, so I asked him about safety of the glue I was using to hold in my popsickle sticks. He didn't know. I figured Elmer's was safest--kid glue. But keep in mind that humans are a species that is incredibly resilient to toxins. Frogs are not. And it seems that bees are not, but maybe they are just being exposed to something really bad that we have not yet figured out. Maybe it's in the hive, maybe it's outside the hive, or maybe it's a combination of too many changes in too short a time period?

Still, I'm marking my queens. I'm one of those newbees that takes out every frame and takes pictures. I'll argue that I need to because I don't know what I'm doing, and looking at the pictures later that night is important. And if my queen is bad, I want to know if she's new or not. If the ink is the problem (which seems unlikey), I'll stop. But until then, perhaps I should focus on getting less glue in the hive.

Oh and I now feed with short glass jars (inside the hive). But the caps are either lined tin, with high BPA's,  or metal that rusts and corrodes. Or both. I can't seem to find a safer feeder (e.g. glass only). And my hives are new and one has no honey stores.

So I have chemicals galore. And I got into this to try to have a more organic honey supply. Oh well.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 12, 2010, 01:32:16 pm
Quote
And if my queen is bad, I want to know if she's new or not.

i am curious about this statement.  not for the sake of argument, but because i'd be interested in knowing why the age of the queen would be important to you if she's bad. 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: winginit on July 12, 2010, 02:06:47 pm
Only to find out if a bad queen has already been superseded. That is, am I looking at the bad queen or is this a new queen? A new queen with a world of (possibly misguided) hope attached to her.

I have a problem in one of my hives, I'm about to post on that. I thought the queen wasn't laying much, but after looking at pictures, she is laying like mad. But there may be some other issues.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 12, 2010, 02:28:18 pm
What I would say to that is:

Any damage done to a queen from marking or painting would manifest itself later in the queen's life.

In a hive where it is advocated to keep young queens, to requeen every one or two years (for reasons from laying vigorousness to swarm control), any damage done by marking chemicals would be minimal.  Any contamination in the hive would be negligable, unless you accidentally tip the bottle over into the hive  :roll:.

I don't know if there have been studies done, but based on prevalence of the process, I'd say that there isn't much difference in performance, if any.  If people noticed that the queen was under performing, I'd say it would have been an issue by now.  If she is underperforming by a small factor, then probably the tradeoff is worth it.

My point to this is that we usually have bigger issues facing our hives, from natural (birds, skunks, dearth, AFB, swarming issues) to the unnatural (bumbling beeks, chemicals on surrounding farms, chems we put in the hives), that the issues of a tiny acrylic dot on one of the bees (albeit the most important one) is probably in the category of problems NOT to lose any sleep over.

But if you want to run a trial, I'd be more than happy to sell you a marked queen for $500.... :-P :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 12, 2010, 02:36:03 pm
But if you want to run a trial, I'd be more than happy to sell you a marked queen for $500.... :-P :-D

I'd rather pay you $500 to step up to the plate and allow me to paint you with the same product.  :-D

You mention a "tiny" acrylic dot. On the same equivalent percentage, I'd say an 18 inch disk would be just right for a much larger human compared to the queens dot..

Let me know if you are interested. After all, it just a tiny dot...... :roll:

BTW....I don't have ANY of the problems you mention except one. Seems when you pay attention to the smaller issues, some of the other larger issues seem to go away also.  ;)

All the straws, whether large or small, played a part that broke the camels back.   ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 12, 2010, 02:47:35 pm
Have you ever used paint?  Spray paint, latex, etc?

I don't know about you, but I HAVE had MORE than enough paint, superglue, mineral spirits, pine sap, lighter fluid, gasoline, motor oil, pesticides, fungicides, bactericides  (even some nailpolish) etc on me over time to cover far more than an 18 inch plate!!  One tiny dot and splotch at a time. And that is far less damaging than the other stuff in my life (stress and weight).

There are a lot of beginning beekeepers here, and I was one of them at one point.  I remember wanting to everything just right, try all the stuff, and was worried about everything.  I've read of beginner beekeepers starting out with one hive willing to let them die so they don't have to treat!  It is bad enough to lose a hive, then to be worried about every little thing.  I can even see somebody out there with a knife trying to scrape the dot off the queens back!  That would be far more fatal than the little bit of paint....

It is a good question, but be real about the threat.  The threat of the paint is extremely minor, if not non-existent compared to all of the other things that can go wrong.  The threat in some cases is way overwhelmed by the benefits in other cases.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 12, 2010, 03:22:11 pm
It is a good question, but be real about the threat.  The threat of the paint is extremely minor, if not nonexistent compared to all of the other things that can go wrong.  The threat in some cases is way overwhelmed by the benefits in other cases.

I have stated over and over again, we do not know.

Your statement is "extremely minor or nonexistent". Could be either one, but you do not know either.

That is my point.

Don't get upset. You choose, and it's your option, to not worry about the little things. Good for you!

I do not see anyone trying to scrape off a paint dot. But I may be a little less dramatic. What I see, is many people perhaps questioning the repeated logic of marking queens, with unapproved and untested materials, and perhaps considering the ramifications of many influences playing off each other.

It is easy to dismiss it that is for sure. I heard that about many things in the bee industry. And while I can not control many outside influences placed upon my bees, this is one I can consider, ponder, question, justify, or even dismiss. But it certainly will not be because a conversation such as this is twisted with a justification of beginners scraping off painted queens.

I applaud many new beekeepers who buck the trend of the traditional wisdom on prophylactic treatments, regular strip treatment, and many other tidbits of wisdom handed down and repeated for decades now.

As for your "observation" of beekeepers not treating and losing hives, I actually find the losses of those with IPM procedures in place, and getting off the "treatments" as you say, with lower annual kill than those who seem to treat with everything coming down the road. But maybe that is just me. I certainly hear many stories of perhaps not perfect operations, but beekeepers who are certainly far off better than the old-school crowd of treat, treat...or you will lose your bees!

Forgive me if I promote something more than what has gotten us to this place in the bee industry. I think up till now, it's nothing to hold up as a model moving forward.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 12, 2010, 04:03:50 pm
Your statement is "extremely minor or nonexistent". Could be either one, but you do not know either.

That is my point.

My point too.  But I'm very sure it is one of the two.  Either one don't worry me. I don't mark my queens, but if it helps beginners or those in AHB areas, go for it, the paint won't hurt anything.  Guilt free.

If you can do with out it, go for it.

Be ready to do do something if anything happens to the queen, that can happen easily, she'll be killed in an inspection before she dies from paint toxicity (done that).  She'll leave in a swarm before she dies from paint toxicity (had plenty leave!).  Drone laying (had one), injury, supercedure (several)...they all happen to queens without paint and queens with paint.  And I don't mark my queens.

The worst that will probably happen is that the other bees will chew the paint off and you'll have lost a buck for marking. :roll:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: KD4MOJ on July 12, 2010, 04:35:16 pm

  All I can say is.... what a ride this has been!  :-D

...DOUG
KD4MOJ
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 12, 2010, 05:15:17 pm

The worst that will probably happen is that the other bees will chew the paint off and you'll have lost a buck for marking. :roll:


I think it should read.."The BEST that will probably happen......."   :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: charmd2 on July 12, 2010, 06:39:07 pm
Mike,  I'll take you up on that $500 offer to paint a circle on my back. :)   I'm a printer by occupation and most days I really am up to 50% covered in inks that our supplier "assertates" that are "perfectly safe" to be in contact with human skin  (the same vendors wash off all ink immediatley with soap and water upon contact with "their" skin), along with uch ethel alcohol, ethel acetate, ethel glycol.  Etc..   I'm fairly certain I'll die of liver/kidney/somekind of disease or other, so why not add your ink to the mix. :) 


I also do not paint my queens, mainly because I can spot eggs.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Cascadebee on July 12, 2010, 08:08:22 pm
Fanning the flames :evil:

IMO the toxin argument does not hold water. It is very unlikely that a spot of paint does harm to the queen if it is well placed on the pronotum.  The exoskeleton is made of chitin (not keratin the mammalian equivalent as mentioned above), and when set in a calcium matrix and covered in wax as in an adult insect, it is extremely resistant to water-based compounds.  

The reason toxicology of queen marking it isn't studied is because it would be a waste of taxpayer $. Marking paint is water based, the bug is water proof, end of story.

As mentioned, the act of painting her carries some risk. For that reason I'm with Bjorn! My queens are precious few.  
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 12, 2010, 09:32:01 pm

The reason toxicology of queen marking it isn't studied is because it would be a waste of taxpayer $.

I hope you are joking, unless you have the time to listen to all the taxpayer money that is wasted every day, it is staggering. That is NOT the reason there has been no studies, that argument is a non starter.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: eivindm on July 13, 2010, 03:13:27 am
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2953/queenelizabethmarked.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/queenelizabethmarked.jpg/)

This queen has lived for ages without getting any problems with her health.  She was born in 1926, and has thus got a white dot.  I'm really glad for this dot.  Without it, it would be pretty difficult to find her in the UK I guess.  No swarming so far either.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: luvin honey on July 13, 2010, 11:58:18 am
As far as testes,they make model paint,why would they wish to prove it safe for bees.
Yipes! What IS this thread about, anyway?  :-D

Great thread! I see no problem in bringing up questions related to beekeeping on a beekeeping forum. If it annoys those who disagree or who have already beat this horse, then ignore it.

I am enjoying the thorough debate. I don't mark my queens. I am learning how to find them this 2nd year (before they were killed by a bear). I had a fellow newbie beekeeper friend kill a queen during the marking process. That's all I know about the topic.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: luvin honey on July 13, 2010, 12:00:16 pm
(http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/2953/queenelizabethmarked.jpg) (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/queenelizabethmarked.jpg/)

This queen has lived for ages without getting any problems with her health.  She was born in 1926, and has thus got a white dot.  I'm really glad for this dot.  Without it, it would be pretty difficult to find her in the UK I guess.  No swarming so far either.
Spewing tea!  :lol:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 13, 2010, 12:09:47 pm
 :lau:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 13, 2010, 04:55:46 pm
Here is a real queen in more than one way......
 
http://bohemianeden.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/freddie-mercury2.jpg (http://bohemianeden.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/freddie-mercury2.jpg)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 13, 2010, 08:03:40 pm
Here is a real queen in more than one way......
 
http://bohemianeden.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/freddie-mercury2.jpg (http://bohemianeden.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/freddie-mercury2.jpg)


Didn't know it at the time, but I never liked those guys, must have been a good reading on the gaydar that caused that. There is some justice though, his chosen lifestyle killed him.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 13, 2010, 08:15:39 pm
Quote

Didn't know it at the time, but I never liked those guys, must have been a good reading on the gaydar that caused that. There is some justice though, his chosen lifestyle killed him.


I just have to say, that is some comment from someone named LIVE FREE OR DIE - wow!! I don't agree with a lot in this world, but I don't wish DEATH nor think they have it coming to them with  anyone because of their lifestyle choices, that's a bit twisted to me - I don't think in my God Fearing World that I have the right to judge anyone to that extreme! SAD.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 13, 2010, 08:27:20 pm
Quote

Didn't know it at the time, but I never liked those guys, must have been a good reading on the gaydar that caused that. There is some justice though, his chosen lifestyle killed him.


I just have to say, that is some comment from someone named LIVE FREE OR DIE - wow!! I don't agree with a lot in this world, but I don't wish DEATH nor think they have it coming to them with  anyone because of their lifestyle choices, that's a bit twisted to me - I don't think in my God Fearing World that I have the right to judge anyone to that extreme! SAD.

That is the thing Beemaster, I don't say you have to believe as I do, and you are entitled to the way you think. I didn't wish for his death, but I do feel it fitting because of what I believe to be a disgusting lifestyle choice. I also don't think it is anyones business how they live in their own closets. But I will NOT be told I have to accept something I believe is abhorrent, and will judge according to MY belief's. I believe when people stopped judging behavior it was the start of the decline of our nation. Notice not once did I try to force you to my belief's, the Live Free or Die comes in there, and you can live free, but judgment by me or anyone else is going to be nothing compared to what I believe is coming for them. I am also not a religious fanatic, just steadfast in what I believe, yet I do not try to force my beliefs on anyone else, but speak them just as anyone else has the right to do, from the other side even.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: CountryBee on July 13, 2010, 09:28:54 pm
He did have a great voice, probably the best.  Was he marked?  Probably.  I don't mark my queens.... :-D you never ever know....
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 13, 2010, 09:57:41 pm
don't you know that you can only express your beliefs if you don't offend someone??   :evil:  man, am i in trouble.  oh well.....

to bad we have gotten to the point in this country where we can only express approved beliefs!  the man died because he chose to have unprotected sex with multiple partners when HIV was at it's peak in the gay community. he also probably contributed to spreading the disease in both the gay and straight community.  that was indeed his choice, and a bad one.

loved the music though.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: melliphile on July 13, 2010, 11:03:24 pm
I know many, many people who have died because they would not control their diet. I would say that they died because of their choices. Lifestyle choices. If I said that it was justice served, that would be in very poor taste. Those people's live were much much more than that.
Kind of like how this whole thread started. Not so much about marking queens or Freddy Mercury, but the acerbic tone.  You are free to express beliefs. You are free to reject others. But when you speak of someones death in such a way, you show a lack of decorum. No crime in that , just kind of sad for you...

   I do not mark my queens. That being said, I believe it to be a tool, just like bee escapes and entrance reducers. Used wisely, marking has its time and place.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 13, 2010, 11:26:32 pm
we are the sum total of our choices.  so said my father when i made some bad ones.   ;)  i don't wish those who make bad choices, ill.  unfortunately, when people make bad choices they rarely impact only themselves.  don't see any point in dancing around that.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 14, 2010, 12:11:19 am
When it comes to self destructive behavior, I give no quarter and ask for none as well. My beliefs are just that, my beliefs, and some may think it sad, I consider it reality.

I don't have any queens yet, so marking is still something to consider, at this point I am leaning toward no, and learn to identify what I need to through observation.....just the way I do with everything... ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: CountryBee on July 14, 2010, 07:32:07 am
Aren't they called the 7 deadly sins for a reason?  I got to see one of my queens the other day and she crawled right on top of the frame to say hi and then went back down.  I didn't even have to pull the frames, amazing!  I never had one do that before.  I was adding a medium super on top of my 2 deeps (without an excluder) :)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: winginit on July 14, 2010, 08:12:32 am
Not to fan the fire, but I find that when I am being judgmental, if I spend some time looking inward, it's usually based on an inner insecurity.  :evil:



Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 14, 2010, 08:54:18 am
Not to fan the fire, but I find that when I am being judgmental, if I spend some time looking inward, it's usually based on an inner insecurity.  :evil:





I think that is an oft used piece of psychobabble to get people NOT to judge, doesn't work with me. I am secure and sure of my path, and couldn't care less if anyone else is on it or not. :-*
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 14, 2010, 11:15:19 am
it's not my job or desire to judge the individual.  it is my job and duty to evaluate behavior and decide if it is something that i want to accept or reject.  we can love the person, but reject the behavior.  even if we love the person, if they engage in destructive behavior we may need to distance ourselves from the person....and the behavior.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 14, 2010, 11:53:01 am
We all judge people. We also are prejudice. It is built in to the very fabric of society, from the way we teach our children to view strangers, to the salesman that comes knocking, to the way we scan a club or social for someone to talk too, etc.

I interviewed many people for jobs. I may have their resume, but much of it comes down to a 10 minute discussion, where I need to evaluate everything from how they talk, dress, personality, etc. I need to judge them, and perhaps even use "prejudice", meaning "pre judging" based on many things, most based on stereotypes.

Some call it a "gut feeling" of why you buy from one salesman compared to another, even though the product is the same. Or why you hire one person over another. It certainly can not be because you discussed in detail every possible item to actually know a person. So you go on preconceived notions, stereotypes, experience, etc. I may not know anything about the 18 year old guy walking in with 23 piercing on his face or the complete "sleeves" inked on his arms, wearing shorts and a t-shirt. But I'm not going to hire him regardless of the 10 minutes we spent chatting.  

We judge people all the time. Without knowing anything about the person. We have preconceived notions about three dudes hanging out on the street corner, the very fat slob mother who smacks her child in walmart. The list is endless.

We also are programmed (clan mentality) to group ourselves into groups we ourselves can relate. That mere fact goes a long way in judging others. I see it with everything from biker groups, to unions.

Judging people, usually means not agreeing with something that person has done, perhaps even condemning their actions. I judge my kids actions, my friends (or ex-friend in the case of one who had a problem with young girls) and about anybody else.

Judging others, and being judged, plays into your id, ego, and super ego. It can also play a part of  sympathy, empathy, and many other intertwined emotions.

I think many "think" they do not judge, or hold preconceived notions. But I think, and lets call it my judgement on them, is that they are wrong.

With that said, I think many confuse judging, or prejudice, and confuse that with bigotry, racism, and actions that deny rights or liberties.  

Show me person who claims to be free of prejudices, or has never judged another, and my judgement of them, would be that they are not being truthful with themselves.  :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: iddee on July 14, 2010, 01:49:38 pm
>>>>With that said, I think many confuse judging, or prejudice, and confuse that with bigotry, racism, and actions that deny rights or liberties.<<<<

I agree with the total post EXCEPT the above quote.

Did you not do harm and deny rights to the kid whom you turned down in favor of a possibly less qualified, less honest, lazier person?

Prejudice is a natural trait that may well keep you alive under certain circumstances. Therefore, it is a necessity for survival. Too many people confuse self preservation with racism, bigotry, and other negative connotations.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 14, 2010, 02:36:03 pm


Did you not do harm and deny rights to the kid whom you turned down in favor of a possibly less qualified, less honest, lazier person?



No he did not, that kid had no right to the job, it is the right of the employer to hire who he sees as the best fit for his company. The harm may have come from the kids decision to make a counter culture statement with the ink and piercings. Actions have consequences.

That is why the discussion on marking is so important, what are the consequences or pros and cons of marking? Each has to decide what will work for them, I tend to err on the side of keeping things as natural as possible, therefore, no paint for me, ....when I finally get going here.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Hethen57 on July 14, 2010, 02:48:36 pm
How bout them Bears?....where is a good Jolel or Finski post about their thoughts on marking queens when you need one?  :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: iddee on July 14, 2010, 05:19:51 pm
Yeah, me and you both, Livefreeordie, I'm just pestering BJ a bit.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 14, 2010, 05:42:56 pm
My original comment was about Freddie Mercury.. I think Kathy you need to remember the days of GAY CANCER and the years when men were uncertain what was happening, and to many it was years and years of this behavior, it was just too late before anyone knew what it was. To those already effected, what difference did it really make?  If you do something that you find out too late will kill you, I don't think you deserve anything as harsh as the death penalty.

My point is, so now now that we know cigarettes kill our lungs and brains, fast food and poly-fats clog arteries and kill our hearts, lead to obesity and opens the door for diabetes and so much more. Does LIVE FREE OR DIE think all these people deserve what they get too, should everyone who chooses a less than perfect life style "Deserve" what they get? Should we all eat carrots and 4 ounces of protein at any meal, and not an ounce more. Not sure about anyone here, but if my wife served me a 4 ounce steak, I'd jump in the car and go out to dinner.

Sure, we should be accountable for our actions, does anyone live a perfect life style, aren't there a million additions out there, aren't humans by their very nature addicts to something, from heroin to God, people need crutches.

If I put a gun to my head and pull the trigger, then I deserve to die - but if I choose a BigMac and Fries, I don't think I deserve to executed for the crime.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 14, 2010, 06:00:48 pm
Quote
I think Kathy you need to remember the days of GAY CANCER and the years when men were uncertain what was happening, and to many it was years and years of this behavior, it was just too late before anyone knew what it was. To those already effected, what difference did it really make?  If you do something that you find out too late will kill you, I don't think you deserve anything as harsh as the death penalty.

don't think i said he deserved the death penalty.  if we make bad choices and those choices result in injury to ourselves, it's on us.  if we make bad choices that result in injury to others, that's a different thing.  unprotected sex is risky to many.  unprotected sex in the homosexual community, especially the male homosexual community, has always been risky.  that's not a PC thing to say, but it is a fact.  besides the usual STD's, that community has been riddled with various types of hepatitis, drug use and associated diseases, etc.  so even pre aids, it was a bad choice.

i don't care that he was gay or bisexual.  i do care that he joined a segment of that population that has shown wanton disregard for their own wellbeing and the wellbeing of others.  maybe he didn't deserve to get aids, but his behavior invited the disease. 

still good music  ;)
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Cascadebee on July 14, 2010, 08:13:20 pm
Quote
i do care that he joined a segment of that population that has shown wanton disregard for their own wellbeing and the wellbeing of others. 

What, rock and rollers?  :-D

I question anyone's assumption that being gay is a choice.  Ever seen bonobo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo) sexual behavior?  They are our closest living relatives and share 99% of our DNA.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Hethen57 on July 14, 2010, 08:31:57 pm
I question anyone's assumption that we Humans have a close relative that is a miniature Chimpanzee  :-D, but I guess that is off the topic of queen marking...
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: iddee on July 14, 2010, 08:45:19 pm
You're right, Hethen, our closest is at least a full sized one, not a miniature. 
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 14, 2010, 09:10:37 pm
being gay may or may not be a choice.  risky sexual behavior is.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: bigbearomaha on July 14, 2010, 11:26:39 pm
How this thread went from marking queen bees to the track it's on now is beyond me.

wow.

Big Bear
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 14, 2010, 11:44:47 pm
happens   :-D
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 15, 2010, 12:26:58 am
Quote
i do care that he joined a segment of that population that has shown wanton disregard for their own wellbeing and the wellbeing of others. 

What, rock and rollers?  :-D

I question anyone's assumption that being gay is a choice.  Ever seen bonobo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo) sexual behavior?  They are our closest living relatives and share 99% of our DNA.

So does a dandelion... :roll:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 15, 2010, 12:42:47 am
Does LIVE FREE OR DIE think all these people deserve what they get too, should everyone who chooses a less than perfect life style "Deserve" what they get?

Short answer ...Yes. No one says you have to live a perfect lifestyle, I sure as heck don't, but every decision I have made is on ME. I am not blaming Mcdonalds because I and not a male model, because I will have a couple double cheeseburgers once in a while, even though I know it isn't the greatest thing for me. Anyone that continues a behavior after knowing it's bad effects is gambling, and even before knowing it was bad, YOU still make choices.
I was a smoker for 30 years, got pleurisy a few years ago from an unrelated activity, the pain was incredible. At first thought it was a heart attack, after two days, and still being upright thought...oh no...lung cancer....finally after a diagnosis, the ordeal scared me enough to put them down for good. Been three years, but you know what, they still could kill me, and that would be on ME, not the cigarette companies. I chose to smoke all that time.
I have had co-workers in the past who were gay, ( I worked for Fedex for many years, the company is loaded with gays ) most of the non militant ones were very nice people. I don't wish anything bad for any of them, but if it happens, it is on THEM, THEY chose to continue risky behavior, or engage in it in the first place.
As far as the chimp statement? Our brains enable us to reason and choose, the chimp acts on instinct, and pointing to that is a total apples to oranges comparison. The reason we are at the top of the food chain is because we can REASON and choose, and deny ourselves that which is risky.

I know this went off topic, and I am glad there was a little leeway given by the moderators, sometimes tangents provoke great thought and allow everyone to know each other a little better. I am also happy that everyone can speak their opinion and then agree to disagree without a full out flame war. Mature crowd here, and that is refreshing.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 15, 2010, 01:09:26 am
we have mods who smack us when we get out of hand.  i try to be good.  my  husband hates it when i leave the computer and have a hand print on my face  :evil:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: NasalSponge on July 15, 2010, 02:59:02 am
Quote
I worked for Fedex for many years

Wait...what..Oh yea, I have worked for FedEx the last 13 years....at the ramp... not to many out here!
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: eivindm on July 15, 2010, 04:07:21 am
I've been busy for a day, and I must say I was a little surprised when I checked in again here, that my attempt to lighten up things a little with this silly queen picture ended up with a discussion of gay sex.  I didn't see THAT coming  :shock:

It is summer, folks!  Smell some flowers and watch the bees collect nectar.  Does wonders for your mind :-)

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 15, 2010, 07:46:10 am
I've been busy for a day, and I must say I was a little surprised when I checked in again here, that my attempt to lighten up things a little with this silly queen picture ended up with a discussion of gay sex.  I didn't see THAT coming  :shock:

It is summer, folks!  Smell some flowers and watch the bees collect nectar.  Does wonders for your mind :-)



Personally, I think it was the picture of queen that caused the reaction and discussion. Unless your suggesting the queen mother is gay....  :roll:

But lets face facts. This was a discussion of marking queens. That's pretty "gay" to start with. May be ok for the ladies, but dudes running around with nail polish in their pockets, painting up the "queens" is about as "gay" as it comes.  :-D

After this discussion, we can now forever state "marking queens is gay!"   :lau:  And telling these "weekend"

dudes  :rainbowflower: to smell some flowers just might push them into full flame mode........ ;)

 :lau:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: winginit on July 15, 2010, 09:04:30 am
Thank you Bjorn for a most enjoyable string and your thoughtful posts.
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 15, 2010, 09:46:58 am
Quote
I worked for Fedex for many years

Wait...what..Oh yea, I have worked for FedEx the last 13 years....at the ramp... not to many out here!

The Courier corp is loaded. Out of a 32 person station we had 7, that is a pretty hefty percentage, and over many classes from dangerous goods specialist to International Shipping Specialist, the classes were about 30% or better. Not a problem though, Fedex is a class company and the employees are or at least were, of the highest caliber.
Which ramp?
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Scadsobees on July 15, 2010, 09:56:10 am
Sure, Bjorn, typical, when you feel like you are losing an argument to pull the insults out of the argument bag!!  :-P

 :-D

Funny how you can make comments like that when you like hanging out with girls!!  Me too!  Thousands of them!
 :-D :-D

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: beemaster on July 15, 2010, 03:47:42 pm
To someone's point NO... I do NOT believe being gay is a CHOICE, no more than being straight. Having gay or straight sex IS a choice I would say, but orientation, I don't think we can control. I've always thought there are a lot of Bi people in the world (after all most the gays work for Fed-Ex - well neary 25% do)  :roll: Must be the sashaying from door to door makes them exemplary expedious employees. and no one still thinks much of two women being all touchy-feely with each other.

LiveFree, I hear everything you say, I still think you are a bit strange (coming from the middle rightas I do), but I have tons of issues too and have no room to talk about others.

Kathy, Name the moderators that give you any guff and I'll deal with them myself  :imsorry: Just doing my job.

I thought long and hard about splitting this post, but a year or two from now, someone is going to read it for the first time and it sure will be an interesting read!
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Kathyp on July 15, 2010, 04:04:44 pm
the mods do a great job and i have only been slapped down when i deserved it.  lets see...who did that?  someone named....beemaster!   :evil:  just kidding, dear.....

it is interesting and i think you are probably right for the most part.  we are at least predisposed in our attractions.  however, most of the lesbians i have known have chosen women over men after some trauma with men.  usually some kind of abuse.  can't think of any gay men i know at the moment, but those i have known in the past had usually been married at one time and had kids.  at some point, they realized they were gay.  seems to be a difference in how the men and women get there.

i am not a big fan of evolution, but i do believe there are genetic changes that take place through adaptation.  perhaps if parts of the tribe were excluded from mating, they turned to members of their own sex for gratification.  we are genetically driven to mate for the purpose of procreation.  the mating drive is very strong.

how's that for going out in the weeds?   :evil:
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 15, 2010, 05:39:57 pm
(after all most the gays work for Fed-Ex - well neary 25% do)  :roll: Must be the sashaying from door to door makes them exemplary expedious employees.

Not 25% of the population Beemaster, about 25-30% of the employees there, and it wasn't an issue, people could openly admit it, as Fedex would not have tolerated bias against them, and rightly so, we were all there to do a job, and everyone there pitched in and did it without sexual orientation being an issue. Yes, most of the gay employees were very good couriers. It wasn't an issue because Fedex wouldn't allow it to be an issue, everyone got treated the same.


LiveFree, I hear everything you say, I still think you are a bit strange (coming from the middle rightas I do), but I have tons of issues too and have no room to talk about others.

Thank you Beemaster, and aren't we all..?.... :-D

Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: BjornBee on July 15, 2010, 07:02:26 pm
Thank you Bjorn for a most enjoyable string and your thoughtful posts.

Thank you.

Now to see what wild twist we can add and send it off on a new course....
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: NasalSponge on July 16, 2010, 08:28:07 pm
Quote
Which ramp?

OKCR
Title: Re: Why mark queens?
Post by: Livefreeordie on July 16, 2010, 11:45:28 pm
That was one I did not get to, Memphis was a real eye opener. I was at LCIA.