Beemaster's International Beekeeping Forum
BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => HONEYBEE REMOVAL => Topic started by: iddee on March 02, 2009, 08:20:43 pm
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This is an intermediate post with a few ideas about trap outs. It will be followed by a post on checking and concluding a trap out sometime later.
Fact....If one worker finds a way back in, she will lead the rest to
that entrance. After that, they will continue to look for other
entrances. It is nearly impossible to seal all entrances if it isn't
done with the initial set up.
Theory....I think the queen reacts as if there is a dearth when the
foragers stop bringing in pollen and nectar. She quits laying.
Therefore, my belief is that the last egg is laid within a week of the
trap being set. That leaves a total of 4 weeks from set up, until the
last worker emerges. As with everything about bees, this can vary.
I have never seen a hive starve to death in the summer. I have seen
them use up all stores in a dearth in the summer and abscond.
Therefore, when a trap out runs out of stores, the queen and the
remaining bees will abscond. The majority of the time she will pass
the catch box and land on a bush in the area. From there, it is like a
swarm. If you find her in time, they can be hived. If not, they follow
the scouts.
A trap on a newly arrived swarm will many times leave within the first
2 or 3 days. They have no brood, no stores, and no reason to stay in
their new home. Many of these queens will take the catch box, many
will not. A colony that has been established for quite some time will
almost always leave the area, leaving only the bees that have taken up
in the catch box prior to the departure.
I have been told by beeks in heavy SHB areas that the SHB will
devastate a colony before the trap out can be completed.If you have a
problem with SHB in your area, you may want to do the trapouts in
early spring before the SHB get strong.
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Interesting. Do you base your theory on what you feel or experience? It makes since to me.
Steve
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I base it on conclusions I have come to after many trap outs. I have never torn into a wall after one week of trapping in order to prove it. The outcome of many trap outs seem to verify it, and I haven't seen anything to dispute it.
It is only theory, tho.
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what if you built a screen type cage and put it on the end of the funnel after most of the worker bees have left, and when the queen and remaining few bees abscond then they too would be caught in the screen cage. Then the funnel could be removed and the robbing could begin. Does that make any sense?? I know it would be a little more time consuming to check on them but you could catch the queen also.
Just thinking out loud.
G3
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This whole trap out thing is still in infancy. I'm sure there will be a lot of improvements as others try different ideas. Give it a try and let us know how it works.
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I have seen references to the cone trap going back at least a generation. And over that time the goal has never been to get the queen.
The main goal is almost always to remove the bees from their current location. The trap is used only because a cutout isn't possible. Almost every effort is with a bait hive with brood and eggs, basically a weak split from another hive, and the hope that the trapped out bees will become the workers for said hive.
Some have placed the cone very near, or even in, the entrance to the bait hive. Some are testing and have tested ways to guide the queen into the bait hive where it is hoped she will halt her effort to abscond.
The trick I think is in designing a simple easy to use setup that will bring about the absconding that is the goal, and yet hold the queen in place until she accepts the new home.
I find it interesting that the time period of 2 weeks is so often mentioned in doing a trap out. When one considers that about 4 weeks is needed to hatch the existing brood.
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Iddee, thanks for the facts. I want to trap out a colony from a tree, but did have the gut to do so because I thought I'll kill all broods and eggs. The people that live near the tree had called the city and many bees experts, but none of them can help. I will do it this weekend and will update you.
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Iddee, when you found out there are more than one queen cell in a trap out box, what do you normally do with them, to prevent that box from swarming?
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That box won't swarm. The first queen out will kill all the rest.
If you get there before the first one comes out and you have 7 or more frames of bees, you can remove that box, cutout a queen cell or two, install it in a second box, and start your second hive with cells instead of eggs.
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Thanks, Iddee. I thought I can do it this weekend, using the box that I built it myself. But I just found a website that sells boxes cheaper than built-it-myself boxes. I don't know if you know this one yet. It calls mannlakeltd.com Hopefully it will arrive soon.
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Iddee, I finally did it. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Trapout1#
As you can see from the pictures, the bees are just hanging on the wall, refusing to go inside the box. After about 3hrs, they finally went inside when I smoked them. I'm little bit concerned about the eggs and broods. How many hrs can they survive without the full attention of nurses? Oh, you said that after I find queen cells, I can cut out one or two and put in the second box. But how do I cut the cell without damaging it? Since I'm using plastic frames and foundation, it's just impossible to cut through. Thanks
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The eggs should be fine. They are much tougher than larva. If the larva was damaged, they will just wait for the eggs to hatch. That's why I stress using eggs.
As for the cell cutting, I have never found plastic in a feral hive, so I have never put plastic in a managed hive. You are on your own there.
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So I'm about to put together my first trap out and I'm unclear about a few things. Do ALL the bees, including the ones in the catch box bail out with her in a swarm if she passes the catch box? Or is it just the bees that remain with her?
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I was speaking of the queen of course in the above post.
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The bees become residents of the catch box and no longer belong to the house colony after 3 days. Any bees that have been in the hive 3 days or more will stay there. The bees leaving the house with the queen will go with her. The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable.
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"The bees that have been out 1 or 2 days is questionable" Iddee, no wonder the bees in my catch box seemed less than the last time I checked, which was 2 days ago. Yes, the bees managed to chew through the hard paperboard. I had to use calking o fill up the hole. I should have used plywood as you suggested.
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Iddee, there was no queen cell after 9 days. This is what the frame looked like . http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Noqueen#5361533862107507602
After that I put in another frame completely filled with eggs and broods. http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Newframe#5361536848685535794
And it has been 3 days since. So today I opened the box to check for queen cell, but still, there is none.
I'm using the Lang frame and foundation on both time. May be the bees had no room to build queen cell on Rite-Cell? Do I need a frame with no plastic foundation for bees to make queen cell? Thanks
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I have never used plastic of any kind in a hive, so I can't help you on that question. Maybe someone else has raised emergency queens on plastic and will step in here.
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Bees will raise emergency queens with plastic foundation. They float the larvae out to the front of the comb when making emergency queens, so foundation type is irrelevant.
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Robo, you're right. I checked again today and the bees did build 7-8 queen cells. Last time I didn't see it, because I was checking the box too soon, only 3 days later after putting in the frame with broods and eggs. Anyway, I have another dilemma. The Iddee cone is clogged because there are so much dead bees and broods inside it. And, strangely, all of them are drones. Should I drill another hole to place another cone or should I cut the hole of the existing cone bigger so that bees can carry out dead bees ? Thanks !
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My cone is made from 1/8 inch hardware and has an opening large enough for two drones to exit together. If that is what you have, just clean out the bodies and leave it as is. If not, change it.
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Ok, it's been about three weeks since I put the eggs and brood frame in the trap out box. Today I took a look inside the box and saw this : http://picasaweb.google.com/Luckyparrot2009/Newqueen#
Can anyone tell from her looks that the queen has mated or still a virgin?
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She looks like she may be mated. Virgins will have a stubby abdomen. The worker bees around her seem to be paying attention to her as well. Where a virgin seems to roam around unnoticed. She is still quite young and I would be optimistic at this point. She should start laying by the end of week 4.
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She looks like she may be mated. Virgins will have a stubby abdomen. The worker bees around her seem to be paying attention to her as well. Where a virgin seems to roam around unnoticed. She is still quite young and I would be optimistic at this point. She should start laying by the end of week 4.
ditto I would look for eggs in about 7-10 days
BEE HAPPY Jim 134 :)
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Thank you guys, I'm planning to leave that box there for another three weeks, before removing the cone. I then will post the pictures. Hopefully by that time all the bees will have exited.
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I have followed the awesome trap out postings and read through almost all the treads. I have an opportunity to do a trap out that has been in a house for about 3 to 4 years. By the activity I have observed it looks to be rather large. I didn't see any one state an optimal time of the year that trap outs are best performed. If I were to start now it could take some time and see myself running into cold weather and an unsuccessful out come. Any advise would be appreciated.
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First of all please update your profile with your location, as it helps answers questions better.
In general, my feelings are wait until spring when the population is low. Or if you want to get the genetics (if they have been feral for 3-4 years, they are obviously excellent survivor stock) I would definitely look heavily into the possibility of doing a cut-out. If the cutout is truly not feasible, you could attempt to catch a spring swarm and then start the trap-out. That way you get the genetics and start the trap-out when the population is reduced. Of course setting swarm traps is no guarantee you will get the swarm.
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Sorry Robo, its updated. Winston Salem NC, Cut out is out of the question. Homeowner doesn't want any demolition going on inside the home due to plaster walls. Bee's have nested in floor joist channel which runs across living room. They have enjoyed some warm winters. :)
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In the floor of the living room or in the ceiling, under the second story room? That will make a big difference.
BTW, I am 35 mile from you.
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In the living room ceiling under a 2nd story bedroom. If pictures would help I can post them?
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You can post the "before" pics, here are the "after" pics... :-D :evil:
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/bees034.jpg)
(http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j226/Iddee/removals/bees033.jpg)
That makes it much harder. I recommend waiting until spring. If they have been there 2 or 3 years, one more winter won't hurt. Removing them now would be disastrous.
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Thanks that one looked like fun mine is probably a similar situation. I will wait until spring. It will probably depend on the weather but when would you plan to start the trap out given our areas climate? You presented at our Forsyth Bee Association, great presentation. It is nice to have beekeepers like you willing to share information to us just starting out. Thanks for your insight.
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Yep, you've got me pegged. I enjoyed the meeting. You have a lot of good people in your club.
I would start the trap with the first sighting of a drone in the spring, on the morning of a day forecast to be sunny and above 60 degrees.
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Great thread iddee!
I have just completed my 1st trapout thanks to your trapout threads and it all went very smoothly due to the very in depth information that you have compiled in here, so thanks for putting in the effort to help so many of us :)
My question is - can I use a queen-right hive as the trapout box?
I'm assuming it will be OK as the returning foragers will have lost the scent (or almost lost the scent) of their queen, and will therefore join the trapout queen-right hive. Is my theory correct or flawed?
Thanks
ML
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I have only tried it once. I had a hive that only had one frame of bees and a queen. When I removed the first box with queen cells, I put it on the trap. It worked fine and the hive prospered. I haven't tried a free ranging queen on the beginning of a trap. If you do, please post how it works. My guess is it will work fine, but only a few live tests will tell for sure.
Thanks for the kudos. I'm glad it worked for you.
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What I found most useful about your trapout guides is WHY to do what you do. Once I understand the theory of what's going on everything makes sense and I can then apply that knowledge to other beekeeping scenarios. The photos were also really good.
Well, I guess I will get back to everyone in the next few weeks on how a trapout goes with a queen-right hive :-\
This is what I have done:
Did my 1st trapout which now has a laying queen.
Started my 2nd trapout using the hive from my 1st trapout.
ML
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I'm a newbie and have a dumb question on trap outs :-D. I found a wild hive in the tank of an old (1929?) ford pickup that is rusting in the woods near my place. I've just started keeping bees this year and was interested in trying to trap the wild hive to add to my current hives. I'm interested in trying to get the queen and was wondering if I had a setup where the bees went though a hive I attach to their entrance with a queen excluder so only the workers could come and go. Would the queen eventually move into my hive when she trys to abscond and finds out she can't get out?
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Try it and report back. No one has made a repeatable success of it that way yet. You may be the first.
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Have you or anyone else you know tried anything like that before? Do you think I have time this year yet to do a trap out or should I wait until next spring to try it? If others have already tried it in vain then I'll pass on the extra time and work. Thanks again for taking the time to respond!
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I know a lot of folks have tried the cone in hive method, with many failures. The workers return to the house entrance, or base of cone, rather than the hive box. I don't know about the excluder.
Whether it would live through the winter has too many variables. Number of bees trapped, fall flow, quality of queen, amount fed, weather, ETC.
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Thanks for your input. At this time, I think I'm going to wait until next spring and see If I can get them then rather than waste time and money trying to feed a weak hive over winter. It's been hot and dry here so don't want to chance it.
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read about trap outs from this post and have set up trap out didn't have any brood at first and bees weren't going in box put in brood 2nd day with division feeder bees started going into box 1 1/2 weeks into trap out lots of bees in box no queen cells put in frame of brood with eggs,larva and attached bees refilled division feeder and added protein patty week later no queen cells no eggs left some uncapped larva (big larva) saw no queen (have to check on ladder) but no fresh eggs or young larva refilled feeder
could the bees just not care they don't care they are queen less should i try to buy queen to give them or try another frame with eggs or will they still not make a queen bees are very docile not loud and aggitated
any help would be appreciated
Thanks David
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Your time line is too vague for me to assess what happened. If it was 1 1/2 weeks from installing eggs til you checked it the first time, you may have a queen. It is 13 days MAX until the queen emerges, after you install the eggs. It can be as few as 10.
I would remove the feeder and install another frame of EGGS. If they didn't raise a queen, or if she didn't survive, they will start queen cells. Check the frame you install EXACTLY 7 days after install. You will know then if they have queen cells.
Otherwise, Give me an exact timeline and I may be able to tell you more explicitly what is happening.
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One very basic rule of thumb " If they won't make a queen they already think they have one".
Scott
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idde thanks for your reply i don't know how long from first frame of brood to the second frame but i though it was about 1 1/2 weeks but i thought it was all capped brood no bees attached but it was raining when i took and put in but know for sure i put in second frame of brood with eggs and tiny larva with attached bees (sprayed lightly with vanilla sugar water but not one eggs ) a week ago sunday and when i put second frame in i checked and there were no queen cells either new or open then checked second frame 7 days latter no queen cells
forgot to mention on tree i am doing trap out saturday 1 week ago (day bf second frame of brood )there was a cluster of bees that didnt go in hive but gathered at bottom of tree about 1 foot from ground (cone at eye level) i brushed them in plastic nuc box and sort of poured in hive
Thanks again
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so they couldn't just be shook up or lazey
Thanks
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I would have searched the group at the base of tree carefully. It likely contained a queen. Humans are lazy, not bees. Give them what they need and they will work.
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iddee and scott thanks for the info
Scott you were right they wont make a queen if they have one
iddee you were right i guess there was a queen in cluster at base of tree checked trap out to day and there is a frame one side caped brood other mixed caped and larva
thanks for your advise also started trap out 06/27/10 but still have bees in tree
Thanks again David
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That box won't swarm. The first queen out will kill all the rest.
If you get there before the first one comes out and you have 7 or more frames of bees, you can remove that box, cutout a queen cell or two, install it in a second box, and start your second hive with cells instead of eggs.
Idee how does one go about cutting out these queen cells w/o damaging them? Then how would they be mounted in new trap out hive on the frame?
Am starting new trap out today in a exterior vent 11 ft up on wall of apartment/ condo complex.
Also when starting trap out where should swarm lures be placed around to possibly catch the absconding swarming queen & workers?
Am not sure dearth is quite here yet but its getting hotter at times & drier, so hope this trap out goes only 6-7wks. A moderate amount of activity seen so hoping not a large hive. This is my 3rd trap out & learn new things everytime.
Cheers, David S
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I use a sharp knife. Cut about an inch to the right of the cell, with the knife angled to the left.
Cut vertically about 2 inches. Then on the left side, make a matching vertical cut with the knife slanted to the right. Cut across the top and bottom, and remove the triangle of comb containing the cell.
Cut a matching triangle from the comb it is to go in and place it in. Press the edges enough to hold it in place.
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is it possible to cut out (and stll use) a queen cell built on plasticell
Thanks Dave
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I never use plastic, so I don't know.
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I use a sharp knife. Cut about an inch to the right of the cell, with the knife angled to the left.
Cut vertically about 2 inches. Then on the left side, make a matching vertical cut with the knife slanted to the right. Cut across the top and bottom, and remove the triangle of comb containing the cell.
Cut a matching triangle from the comb it is to go in and place it in. Press the edges enough to hold it in place.
Great tips Iddee. Hope to try on my next trap out box if I haven't inadvertently placed orig. queen in it & queens are started. Started the trap out this Thursday 7-29-10, so will see how progressing. Heres some of the pics:
Glendale Jackson Arms Vent Hive (http://picasaweb.google.com/torijugaija/BeeHivesAndRescues2010#5500298869634265922)
Cheers, David S
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First, thank you sooooo much Iddee. I started a "triple" trap out (yes, three colonies on three different corners of the same house!) today, and only because of your posts, did I feel confident enough to even give this a try. I've never done this before today, so I read all your threads about 5 times, and hope I do you proud with my attempt. Time will tell.
On to my question - Any "theories" as to why the queen usually absconds instead of following her workers into the trap hive?
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When the bees leave the cone, they go to the field. Upon their return home, they cannot get in, so they go in the trap box. When the queen leaves, she also goes to the "field", or the woods. To a tree as a swarm, or whatever. She never returns, therefore she doesn't take up in the trap box. She absconds with the few bees left, as she doesn't know all the others are just outside. All she knows is she has no food and few bees, so she's getting out of dodge fast.
PS. Pics and follow up posts are highly sought after here. We expect you to keep us up to date on the trapouts.
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Iddee, thanks again. I'll definitely keep you posted and I'll try to get some pictures. Fortunately, this trap out is not far away, so I'll be able to check regularly. I love the way you can make sense with your answers. Keep up the good work for everyone's sake.
Your very appreciative student,
Steve
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Just an update,
Sorry but no pictures. Of the three traps I set up. I ended up with two colonies. I even found new queens in each colony at about 3 weeks after setting them up. Unfortunately, the queens were gone when I collected up both hives last week. I had a better chance to inspect the hives today since it warmed up to 70F. Each has a good 5 frames of bees, plenty of honey and pollen, but no queens or larva found. In fact they both have a lot of cells with 2 or three eggs and the only cells capped are drone cells - I suspect laying workers?
So, seeing how it's so late in the season, any thought about how to handle these hives (if at all)?
Thanks,
Steve
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Sorry for the queen loss. About the only thing you can do now is combine them with another hive and split in the spring.
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Not all bad, the bees are out of the house so the homeowner is real happy. Even if these bees don't make it, I've got some nice drawn comb with honey and pollen, which at my stage is a real plus.
I understand combining a laying worker colony with a queen-rite colony is a little tricky and dangerous for the existing queen. Would it be cruel to just shake out the laying worker frames somewhere else in the yard, remove their hive boxes, and steal their frames of stores for a queen-rite colony that's a little light going into winter? By the 10-day forecast, it looks like today would be the last day to try something like this. It should be in the 60's, but then the temps are going to dive into the 40's for the next week. I'm thinking (hoping) the "shaken" bees will disperse between the other 20 hives in the yard without the force to kill any queens. The yard I dragged these trap-out bees to is my "nursery" with my first batch of queens I raised this year. Kind of overly protective of them like a new parent. Hate to jeopardize the queens with some "goofy" bees. Am I thinking right? Or is there a safe way to combine the colonies.
Thanks, Steve
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Every beek does things differently. When I have a laying worker hive, I shake them out 2 feet in front of my weakest hive. They know it isn't their home, and go into it with caution and humility, not aggressiveness. Therefore, they are accepted.
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Iddee, you have created a most amazing thread, and it sounds like you have helped out so many people, and so many more people to come, good on you!!! Beautiful and most wonderful days, of love, happiness and health. Cindi
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Iddee, just shook them out like you do. I've never had to do it before, and if that works for you, that's all I need to know. Weather is so nice here today. Made getting out of work to go to the bee yard well worth it. Really tough to go back to work though!
As an aside, when I pulled the trap cones off the building, the plywood bases I used splintered off in layers. Obviously, the scraps I grabbed to make them where not exterior plywood. I'll make sure when I refurbish the cones to use exterior plywood or solid boards. I'm still learning.
Thanks ever so much, Steve
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BBee, hopefully you saw them march into the new hive across a welcome mat. Glad the traps worked for you.
Cindi, thanks for the kudos. Seeing your return brightened a lot of people's smiles, mine included.
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Iddee, Sure did and not a dead bee on the landing board or in the grass! I confess I did spray them down with a little sugar syrup with lemon just as insurance. Heck, I like visitors that come with food rather than empty handed, too. Your system worked like a charm and can't wait to use it more often next season. Can't thank you enough.
Steve
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Iddee, thank you for your kind words, and guess what!! These kind words have also brightened up my already bright smile, kudos to you too. Have that most awesomely, beautiful day, of health and love, Cindi
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I know a lot of folks have tried the cone in hive method, with many failures. The workers return to the house entrance, or base of cone, rather than the hive box. I don't know about the excluder.
Whether it would live through the winter has too many variables. Number of bees trapped, fall flow, quality of queen, amount fed, weather, ETC.
Just an idea, what if after most of the field bees have left the cone and settled into the trap box you move the cone inside the trap box. It sounds like there is quite some time between the field bees leaving and the queen and her subjects leaving. I am just thinking this would give the queen a chance to meet her old pals and maybe new home. If the old queen decides to stay then you can remove the cone so the robbing can commence on the old hive.
I have never done a trap out but what I have learned on thread has encouraged me to try one in the spring.
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Trapping is still in the pioneer stage. Try it and report back. We are always open to improvements. I'm sure there are many out there. They just need to be found.
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Trapping is still in the pioneer stage.
Oh I thought it was a standard proven proceedure.
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Proven with one method only. There has to be many other ways that haven't been found, plus many improvements to my way. They just have to be found. It's a whole new method that is still in it's infancy. Everyone is always looking for improvements.
Also, there are different goals looking to be achieved through a trap out. The method for trapping the queen every time still hasn't been found. Maybe you can find it.
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I have two swarms in places that ask for the cone trap out. How does the trap out influence the temprament of the bees? Do they become agitated more so the what could be expected as normal?
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I have never known it to change their temperament. They are confused, rather than angered.
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I agree with Iddee.
The first couple of days there is a lot more activity due to the confusion until they adapt to the hive. While queenless, they can be a little more temperamental, but I usually don't notice it until they have been unsuccessful raising a new queen.
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Thanks