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BEEKEEPING LEARNING CENTER => GENERAL BEEKEEPING - MAIN POSTING FORUM. => Topic started by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 05:16:25 am

Title: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 05:16:25 am
I give up!!!!!


I can't manage to U/L pictures here so if anybody is interested to see my new design from my previous VIC go to my web page at www.beesbatsandbeyond.com (http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com) and then go to "Bee Equipment".  I have redesigned the location of the upper entrance, no vent holes on the front and I included a "front porch" alighting board.  I have attempted to explain it here but I keep loosing everything I type while I am trying to U/L pics to my post.

(http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/images/sbb_5.jpg)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Robo on January 08, 2010, 08:24:26 am
Rich,

I edited your post and added an image.  Go edit the post again and it should be clear how to add the other images.  If you have problems I'll help you out.


Excellent, I might add.  I love it when people think outside the box and design stuff on their own. thanks for sharing.   One thing you might consider is the dado a frame rest in the top.  I looks like the box is deep enough to hold medium frames,  and I often find myself putting a frame or two in the vent box to have the honey cleaned out or even at times letting the remainder of brood hatch in the summer. It is especially handy if your doing a little queen rearing and have extra frames temporarily.

Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 11:21:40 am
Thanks Robo!!!!!!!!! I appreciate it!  The idea of the dado for the frames crossed my mind before but I forgot to include it on my present design.  I will definitely do it with my other boxes for the same reasons that you mentioned.  Thanks again.

I did manage to UL my avatar previously so I guess that it is possible for me to do it :-D  I just forgot how :roll:

gaucho10
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Delmer on January 08, 2010, 01:26:56 pm
Since I don't know any better- and since I'm new at this. :roll:
Is the hole in the center for feeding?
Do you put this on in the summer months only? or is it used year round?
Does your front porch have a 'door' or entrance too?
Do you put frames in there?

Thanks!

Danny
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 02:03:20 pm
Danny,

"Is the hole in the center for feeding?"

The hole in the center is for ventilation, for feeding and for observation.

"Do you put this on in the summer months only? or is it used year round?"

I use it year round in conjunction with my screened bottom board to assist in ventilation.  In the warm weather I can still take a peek through the top if I want, I can still feed them if I want but most important it is for VENTILATION.

"Does your front porch have a 'door' or entrance too?"

The "front porch" only has a swing, a screen door and a cooler full of beer. :-D :evil: :-P
No, I'm just kidding!!!!!!!!
What I call a "front porch" is only a "way of expression".  It was just a joke.  It is really called an "alighting" board.  You have a larger version of an alighting board directly underneath many hive bottom boards.  It looks like a ramp.  Do the bees really need a board to alight themselves prior to flying out???  No.  They can fly in and out of the vent hole just as good as if they were flying into or out of a hole in a tree.  The only reason that I made them (porches) is because I was getting bored with this New England weather and I just needed something to do.  Plus its a conversation piece that you can brag about such as we are doing right now.  My so-called "porch" or alighting board is placed directly over the original upper "vent" hole and the bees can walk out onto it prior to flying off.  That roof over the alighting board also might help during fowl weather such as rain, wind or snow.
  
"Do you put frames in there?"

It just so happens that you can!!!!!  I believe that there was a previous post here somewhere suggesting that idea.  I was planning to cut out a rabbet on the top to accommodate frames but I forgot to do it.  This is my first box that is high enough to allow a frame to fit.  The next couple of Ventilated Inner Covers that I produce will possibly have a place to hang frames.  That idea comes in handy when you want to either hang some frames to feed honey or to hang brood frames that you wish to share with that particular hive.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Delmer on January 08, 2010, 02:35:32 pm
Thanks Gaucho!

I'm trying to figure out a way to observe the hive in the winter months.  Been really cold here- although probably not as cold as ya'll- and I'm real reluctant to take the lid off the hive.  This is my first go 'round and I'm trying to make plans for next winter.  I though about an acrylic hive body, I found where I can buy 3/4" thick plexiglass sheets on the internet-  but I'm not sure how much I'd be able to see, and in the summer it would probabley melt the wax.  There's an IT guy here that thinks Im crazy but I'm looking into a real small camara that I might be able to place in the hive after I close it up for the winter. 

Danny

a cold beer on the porch sounds good-  just might have to wait a few months 8-)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Two Bees on January 08, 2010, 02:56:35 pm
Now, if you could fit a BBQ on that porch somehow, you could have a party!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: annette on January 08, 2010, 06:39:20 pm
Nice looking. So that attached box is the upper entrance with a cover for the rain?? 
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 08, 2010, 08:02:35 pm
How do the bees get to the brood-chamber-cant tell from pics -it looks like every thing is screened off -wonder if you could make multiple feeder holes say may be four so you could feed a gallon at time-i have seen people fill those box type ventilators with shavings and such what do you think about it-similar to warre hive- RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 09:27:51 pm
OK,

The Vented Inner Cover (VIC) is what you see in the picture above.  It sits just like a honey supper directly above the top brood chamber.

Picture this.....take out the regular inner cover and replace it with a VIC.  The VIC has a 4" hole in the center as seen in the picture.  That's how the bees get from the brood chamber into the VIC.  With my new design the bees are able to leave the VIC via the front vent hole which is identical to the vent hole of a regular inner cover (~~~3/8" x 2") ONLY the hole is now ABOVE the floor to the VIC as opposed to UNDER the VIC.  Not only can the bees leave the brood chamber via the VIC but so can the moisture.  The moisture also exits through the various small (1") screened holes on the side of the VIC.  The bees only need to guard the small 3/8" x 2" hole just as before only this time they are WITHIN the VIC as opposed to inside the brood chamber underneath the inner cover.

In other words the bees have to leave the VIC through the "porch screened door", around the swing, by the beer cooler and out into the yard. :-D







Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 09:42:08 pm
Hopefully I can do this video UL.  Here goes...

[img width= height=]http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/7093/beevideo1.mp4.th.jpg[/img] (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=beevideo1.mp4)

This is a short video of one of my hives with a VIC and a 1/2 gal. bottle of honey that I am feeding right now (1/8/10).  As you can see the bees are at the top of the double brood chamber and they MIGHT have other food stores somewhere inside but they won't reach it because of the cold.  The bottle of honey is their food source.  They have not been taking too much the last two weeks so I am assuming that they are in a food area ( possibly frame #2,3,4.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 08, 2010, 09:47:31 pm
  AH yes now i see the vid makes it clear the pic looks like the three inch hole is screened-didnt see that in the vid -if you are feeding wont that block the three inch hole they use for acsess to the exit-RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 08, 2010, 09:56:33 pm
Perhaps you just slide the jar to the side  :lol: seams to me that you are manly venting the cluster -perhaps if you cut a slot across the top bars -in the floor the bees could come and go with ease -and maybe it would help the venting of the hive as a whole -removing moisture from sides and so forth -think im geting the idea of what you are doing -RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 10:07:24 pm
rdy-b,

No.  The hole is slightly larger than the bottle top.  The 4" hole is NOT screened.  That is the area through which I feed the bees.  As you can see in the video I have the 1/2 gal. bottle upside down resting partly over the hole.  That is due to laziness.  Actually I have a metal frame that prevents the bottle from tipping and that I could put on top of the hole and the bottle will fit over the hole.  But I hardly ever use it.  In the other hives I just invert the bottle over the frames.  I could not do it to this hive because the bees were all over the top of the frames and I did not want to squash any bees.  The bottle cap cover is only partly perforated so that the honey flow is minimal.  On another note but same tune...My original VIC's are only 3" deep so that I need to place an empty medium box over the VIC to be able to insert the jar for feeding.  Initially I did make slider screens that go over the 4" hole in order to keep the bees from entering the VIC.  I don't recall which post it was but the question was "can you invert the glass jar over a screen and can the bees still suck the food out of the jar"?.  I believe it was MB who stated that "yes they can".  At that time the Vented Inner Cover was somewhat of a new thing and some folks thought that if the bees got into the VIC they would propolize it.  I found out that this is not the case.  NOT that it could not happen but that it most likely won't.  Before the bees decide to propolize the screened holes inside the box above their brood chamber they will probably start building comb onto the underside of the telescopic cover.  That won't happen if you keep tabs and check your bees on occasion.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 10:20:54 pm
I missed one of your questions.  You asked if the glass botle will block the access inside the VIC.  The answer is no because the diameter of the bottle cover is slightly smaller than the hole opening.  Also...I keep saying 3" hole.  It is approximately 3".  It could be 4" or whatever size you make it.  You can make a 2" hole and place the bottle over the hole but it will block the air flow unless you drill several other holes.  You can screen them or you won't.  That's the neat thing about all this...at least on my part....I like to experiment.  So far my design works for me and if you think you can improve it then DO IT and LET US ALL know.  That is what this forum is all about.  Not to let you down but....just want to mention that some people do not believe in Ventilated Inner Covers OR Screened bottom Boards.  Others don't even use "bottoms"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 08, 2010, 10:29:06 pm
   Always keep a open mind ;) after all its location location location any way you cut it :lol: -so i would also like to know about the floor is it flush or is there bee space- and is the top entance of the vic the only entrance or do they get another-RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 08, 2010, 10:55:36 pm
rdy-b,

"so i would also like to know about the floor is it flush or is there bee space"

good question but hard to answer.  I will tell you why.  I happen to have equipment that I bought from several different suppliers.  I bought some medium boxes that carry the frames level with the top of the box.  I have some that the frames leave a 3/8" space.  And I also have some that were "home made" ( I won them at a raffle) that don't match anything else I have.  So to answer your question...allways buy from the same supplier or buy from a local woodworker/beekeeper or make your own.  If you can't make your own you can always place an order with a woodworker and possibly get a good deal.  Give him/her your measurements and you will keep all your equipment to match-size.  OK... now I will answer your question...Because I couldn't depend on size I just made all my boxes with a 3/8" gap between the bottom of the box and the bottom of the floor.  When I place the VIC over  a box that keeps the frames flush with the top of the box then I get a perfect 3/8" gap between levels.  When I place the VIC over a box whose frames are slightly lower (~1/8") the gap is bigger but so far I have not noticed anything out of whack.  During the winter months you don't have to worry about the bees propolizing  the space.

"is the top entrance of the vic the only entrance or do they get another"

The VIC hole could be considered a sole entrance, a sole exit or you could also have a bottom entrance.  In my case the VIC hole in front of the hive (3/8" x 2") is what I consider a vent/entrance/exit hole.  The bottom of the hive is the main entrance.  During the summer the bees utilize the bottom board as a main fly-by zone.  The top is usually guarded under strict supervision but not as well as our government's.  If you check into Michael Bush's home page you can read about upper entrances.  I believe that they are his favorite.  If you have not gone there yet you have to check it out.  That site will probably answer most of your questions.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 08, 2010, 11:18:40 pm
 At this time of year here in calia my bees set ready to go in to almond pollination -they valley FOG sometimes stays for weeks (it is here now ) and bees are rearing copious amounts of brood -these conditions make for alot of condensation in the hives -so moisture control is always on my mind thank you for the tips  :lol: RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: bassman1977 on January 09, 2010, 10:03:55 am
Gaucho...with jar feeding in the front entrance, it nearly always sets off robbing. Even with top feeders I see this happen often, unless of course I seal it up real well.  Do you notice this at all when feeding using this new VIC?  Not sure how many hives you have but even if I have one neighboring hive, the robbing is almost a 100% certainty.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 09, 2010, 10:21:47 am
bassman1977,

There is no robbing because the jar is totally sealed from the outside of the hive EXEPT for the small upper entrance hole (3/8" x 2").  This is just the same setup as with a regular inner cover only it has a built-in box above it.  The guard bees will defend the entrance.  The other 1" round holes around the two sides and back side have been screened off so there is no access into the hive.  During the summer when the bees are producing honey you get the smell of the hive even if you are standing some distance away.  So if you are concerned that the upper vent holes are going to entice robbing then I don't agree.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 09, 2010, 10:31:42 am
Here is another shot of my New England "bee porch" recently installed on my wintering hives.  Hope it helps block some of the wind.

(http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/4453/beewinter1.jpg) (http://img21.imageshack.us/i/beewinter1.jpg/) (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/beewinter1.jpg/1/w1600.png) (http://g.imageshack.us/img21/beewinter1.jpg/1/)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Bigeddie on January 09, 2010, 12:09:39 pm
That vented deal looks a lot like what Bee Works has to offer. I have one , it works good.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: wouldliketobee on January 09, 2010, 01:30:44 pm
I built a "front porch"  a few months ago I figured it would block some wind and rain , I ended up putting some 1/4 inch screen on mine had a mouse get in I have a 3/4 inch hole in a 1 inch thick inner cover that I made with a deep on top of that with dry sugar, i think I will change to 3/8 x 2 inch slot next year and make a new " front porch"  , great pictures.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2010, 05:45:26 am
I use upper ventilation straight a 20 mm hole in front wall.

Sorry to say but that system will not work.

Too strong ventilation. Bees stuck the mesh with resin.
You cannot control the ventilation, when it is good or too much.

You live quite in North. http://www.wunderground.com/US/MA/Spencer.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/MA/Spencer.html)

Mice love to go throught that kind of upper hole.

********************

"No you may shoot the messenger "
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Delmer on January 10, 2010, 08:53:13 am


Mice love to go throught that kind of upper hole.


the hole on the porch looks pretty small (judging from pic.#6)  http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/Bee_Equipment.html. (http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/Bee_Equipment.html.)  Maybe a mouse can shimmy thru that - they can squeeze into some small spots.   From the way it was described all of the other holes have screen covering them.  Personally, I think its a great idea-  I propped my cover up during the summer to increase the ventilation- this would be at least as much ventilation as propping the lid.

Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 10, 2010, 09:43:25 am
Finski,

I have to disagree with you.

"Too strong ventilation. Bees stuck the mesh with resin."

I have been using this design for two season already (2008-2009).  Initially I built my ventilated inner (VIC) cover with a screen mesh frame that either slides or rests over the 4" hole.  During the winter of 2008-2009 I decided to keep the screen out to see what the results would be.  I found out that the bees did enter the box but did not propolize the screen mesh.  The only thing I did not like was the fact that the bees were trying to fly out through the screen mesh.  I had to actually pry up the telescopic outer cover to let them fly out.  In my new design (2010) I have raised the location of the upper entrance hole to be directly above the floor of the VIC.  The bees now will be doing the same thing they were doing before when I had a regular flat inner cover.  The entrance hole is the same size (3/8" x 2") to defend.

I did not have any problems with mice entering any of my hives, ever.  I use a mouse guard for the entrance down below and they don't appear to use the upper vent hole to get in...so far.

By the way...I guess that I lied....When I built my first ventilated inner cover I made the center hole diameter 3".  The 1/2 gal. bottles would fit directly over the hole and would block the ventilation.  On the rest of my VIC's I enlarged the holes to 4".  The bottles now fit right into the hole and either rest on top of the frames or I can sit them over the hole with a metal frame I built to keep the bottles from tipping over.  SO far the bottles do ok just sitting over the frames.  With the 4" hole there is still enough of a gap to keep the ventilation flowing around the bottle's neck.  I will have to go through my old posts and correct my 3" to 4".  Sorry!!!!!!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: wouldliketobee on January 10, 2010, 01:21:58 pm
I don't think I would have had a mouse get into my hive if I would have went with a 3/8 X 2 slot like Gaucho used , I used a 3/4 x 3/4 dado cut in my thick inner cover , the mice I have problems with are huge, I think they would have trouble getting through a 3/8 x 2 slot , so that is what I am going to switch to next year.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 10, 2010, 02:54:32 pm
Finski,

I have to disagree with you.

I have been using this design for two season already (2008-2009).  Sorry!!!!!!

I have used that mesh hole 45 years.  It is not for ventilation.

When I stopped to make that mesh hole, mice stopped to dig holes into insulation in inner cover. They do not get in, but they piss there the whole winter.

I just told my experiences.

.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 10, 2010, 08:41:43 pm
intrance below floor in this version-   ;) RDY-B                                                                                                             http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/plans/all_season_inner.pdf (http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/plans/all_season_inner.pdf)




 http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/season-inner-cover-p-50.html?osCsid=d70f71c400d606bec0402943b996726c (http://www.honeyrunapiaries.com/store/season-inner-cover-p-50.html?osCsid=d70f71c400d606bec0402943b996726c)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: annette on January 10, 2010, 09:27:56 pm
That's the ones I have - from Honey Run Apiaries. They seem to work really well.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 10, 2010, 09:33:35 pm
was the pink foam include? RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 10, 2010, 11:59:18 pm
rdy-b and annette,

That's where I got my original design and it has worked fine so far.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2010, 01:08:19 am
rdy-b and annette,

That's where I got my original design and it has worked fine so far.

From original pictures I can see that the big hole is for feeding, not ventilation.

In winter position the hive has awfully much holes.
In summer the cover is turned so that there are no ventilation much, only upper entrance.

*********************

My experience is that it is terrible  system .

I have same covers all the year around and I can vent the hive so much that they need. The need is very small.

****************

In Finland , of course we have a big debate, whose inner covers are best and whose are nothing.
But still all hives do well with theirs system.

.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2010, 01:15:52 am
finski-what do you think about the pink foam-I wonder if you can place the foam so it covers some of the hole -or you could have hole totaly open-RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: annette on January 11, 2010, 12:26:08 pm
was the pink foam include? RDY-B

Yes and I use it in the winter
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2010, 12:53:09 pm
finski-what do you think about the pink foam-I wonder if you can place the foam so it covers some of the hole -or you could have hole totaly open-RDY-B

You live in clayton ca just now weather quite good to bees. http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Clayton.html (http://www.wunderground.com/US/CA/Clayton.html)

If you have a mesh floor, you need not upper entrance in winter.

Over all bees need a light air flow so that their respiration air changes.
The moisture moves out, but if it is too cold, moisture condensate indoors.

If the hive has brood, its temp is high and condensation point moves outside of the hive.

But absolutly, one finger size hole in upper part of hive is enough for ventilation.

If the hive is warm, it keeps inside dry.  Think about you homes and ventilation.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: danno on January 11, 2010, 01:30:32 pm
I have honeyrun vented covers on all 30 of my hives.  I built my off the set of plans.  I dont use foam in mine though.  I use bails of straw and break off 3 inch books of it.  It still alows for some venting but insulates and obsorbs.  My upper enterances are cut in the bee space below the inner cover.  They are also only 1" X 3/8" This works very well in my snowy cold Michigan weather
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: annette on January 11, 2010, 01:34:10 pm
I like that your entrances are smaller than mine.  Sometimes I think the entrances are much to big that come with the inner covers.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2010, 03:26:18 pm
What About the diferance in the DEWPOINT -watter in air condensing at diferant temps- :? RDY-B  ;)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2010, 10:40:04 pm
.
My hive set up is the same all year around. Same stuff and same insulations and same covers.

Only difference is that I put a planket of geotextile in front of hives which protect entrance against snow and wind. ( Dec-Feb)

In summer I look from number of ventilated bees, how big main entrance open they need.

Upper cover insulation is important sot that  the cover does not condensate moisture down onto frames.

Very important is to deminish the the hive so that colony fill wintering space with bees.
It keep interrior warm and move DEWPOINT somewhere out of honey stores.  

If the ventilation is too big, it spends winter food and brings the colony nearer starvation.
******
With this system 20 kg sugar per hive is enough to get hives over winter from September to April and I need not worry about they condition. There are perhaps 5 kg honey/hive  with that 20 kg sugar.

************



.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 11, 2010, 10:49:57 pm
.
there is a  big debate, which is the best insulation material in inner cover. They are many. If you find a good, no reason to change it off.

When you put your hand under insulation, you feel how warm the cover is. So without insulation valuable heat escapes. The heat is made from honey. It is an expencive fuel.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 11, 2010, 10:57:23 pm
             With this system 20 kg sugar per hive is enough to get hives over winter from September to April and I need not worry about they condition. There are perhaps 5 kg honey/hive  with that 20 kg sugar

************ how many frames going in -and how many frames coming out-RDY-B

En käytä turvatarkastus alhaalta levyt itse, mitä kerroitte minulle kastepisteen oikein nyt jos pepole käyttö turvatarkastus alhaalta aluksella ne ovat aina kastepisteen mehiläisiä ei korjata tätä paljon kosteutta
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 12, 2010, 01:49:07 am
       

************ how many frames going in -and how many frames coming out-RDY-B


Summer - winter ?? do you mean? - minimizing for winter?

In summer I have 3 langtroths + 4-5 mediums in hive tower.
For  winter I try to get them to be in 2 brood box but normally half of yeard is in one box and half in 2 box. Now I have 30 hives. No nucs.


If hives are weak in summer like 4 box, I join them for main yield : three 4 box hive --->  2 six box hives.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 12, 2010, 01:55:37 am
.
You asked about pink foam?

We have in Finland blue foam.

I have used it as summer cover but bees destroy it soon.
For winter insuation it need to be 5 cm / 2" thick.
Otherwise it forms condensate water with insulated brood box.
Cover must have the best insulation. Then it does not condensate moisture.- Look windows why they become misty...
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 12, 2010, 10:09:52 am
.
Summary  about Gautsho's system:

Gautsho writes:

Is the hole in the center for feeding?"  The hole in the center is for ventilation, for feeding and for observation.

"Do you put this on in the summer months only? or is it used year round?"

I use it year round in conjunction with my screened bottom board to assist in ventilation.  In the warm weather I can still take a peek through the top if I want, I can still feed them if I want but most important it is for VENTILATION.

**********
Here it is said well, how the cover works.

My opinion is that the hives has too much ventilation. A mesh floor and a huge upper hole in summer.

In winter Run Apiaries use 2 inch insulation board.

*********

When I put too early a super over the hive, it takes one week that bees are able to occupie it.
At nights and in rainy days bees make cluster on brood area to keep them warm. They retriet from peripheria of hives to keep the hart warm.

If bad weather continues over 2 weeks, bees are not able to keep brood warm and often some part get a chalkbrood.

Gautzo, you have a little bit missunderstanding how that cover works.

.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 12, 2010, 10:35:31 am
Finski,

"Here it is said well, how the cover works.
My opinion is that the hives has too much ventilation. a mesh floor and a huge upper hole in summer.
In winter Run Apiaries use 2 inch insulation board."

You are right that the hive could have "too much ventilation".  That all depends where you live on the planet.  If you live in a mild climate then I don't think it is a concern.

First of all my (SBB) screened bottom board has a tray that slides underneath to control the air flow.  I usually keep it on through most of the winter.

During the summer months here in New England the ventilated inner cover that I have works great, I think.  If there is bad weather (rain/cold) you could still insulate the VIC with foam.  During the winter you could also insulate the VIC with foam.  I wrap my hives with 1-3/8" (corrected 1/12/10) foam laminated with aluminum paper.  If you look at the picture on page two you can see that the foam is taped over my hives.  Inside the VIC you can cut this same foam and place it around the walls of the VIC, similar to what the Honey-Run-Apiaries design has.  The aluminum wrapped foam does not get destroyed by the bees because it is protected by aluminum.  You can also fill the inside of the VIC with absorbing material as many people do.  With my new design, which has the upper vent hole above and within the VIC, you now have an air flow through the VIC which allows the absorbing material to absorb the moisture.  This is what I am doing with my second VIC I just built.

This new design also includes a rabbet on top so that I can hang frames for the summer.  If I want to hang frames during the winter I can place the frames in the center where I would usually have the honey bottle but I would not use it during the winter for frame feeding because I don't think the bees would come up during cold weather.  In a milder area they might.  I have the honey bottle right now in the center hole and insulation material around without sealing the front vent hole.

Like I mentioned earlier, if you don't like the amount of airflow through the side screened vents you can make "flaps" or covers so that you can regulate the amount of air flow through the VIC sides.  During the winter you can keep the solid laminated foam insulation.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Natalie on January 12, 2010, 10:35:40 am
Hi Rich, I was wondering where you have been, now I know.
The mad inventor has been working in his garage! :-D
Congratulations on your new design, I think its great!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 12, 2010, 10:40:30 am
Hi Natalie,

I have been busy with my pencil in my mouth my glasses hanging off my nose and scratching my messed up hair calculating my design over my work bench.  OK...everything is true except for the messed up hair...I don't have any.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 12, 2010, 11:23:01 am
.
Sounds perfect
It is better to me to concentrate to Canadian mining stocks

:-D
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 12, 2010, 11:42:17 am
Hey Finski,

Sometime around the 1860's here in the USA some guy by the name of William Seward decided to spend $7,000.000 on an icebox.
People thought he was crazy but he was proved right.  He purchased what we now call the State of Alaska.  So if you want to try "Canadian Stocks".......you never  know!?!?!?   :-D :evil:
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 12, 2010, 01:28:45 pm
.
You have still those Stewards there   :shock:

http://www.moonshop.com/ (http://www.moonshop.com/)

You too can be the proud owner of a property on the Moon!
The ultimate novel gift for yourself or a loved one.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 12, 2010, 08:26:07 pm
Wow Finski,

How on earth did you ever come across that web page?  I took a quick look at it but was afraid to catch some type of virus if I went into it.  I can't believe that such a website actually exists. :shock:

Anyways.......I am now in the process of trying to measure temperatures in three different hives.  One hive has my original ventilated inner cover as originally designed.  The second has my new design without insulation and the third has the new design with 1-3/8" of foam insulation backed with aluminum.  I will attempt to take interior temperatures of the upper brood chamber of all three and the inside temperatures of the ventilated inner covers.  The current temperatures at night are 5 to 25 deg. F.  Lets see what kind of results will be obtained.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 12, 2010, 09:16:34 pm
gacho10-what is the strength of these colonies-are they equal- 8-) RDY-B
and also can you give DEWPOINT temp -should be on weather forcast
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: wd on January 12, 2010, 09:41:03 pm
.
You have still those Stewards there   :shock:

http://www.moonshop.com/ (http://www.moonshop.com/)

You too can be the proud owner of a property on the Moon!
The ultimate novel gift for yourself or a loved one.

phew, a few years back, offers for property on the moon arrived in email, haven't seen an actual website ... Amazing! Now it's all about winning lotto's and inheritance funds in that particular email account. I have no idea how they found my address. never gave it out. Good luck on moon property!

Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 12, 2010, 10:20:10 pm
rdy-b,

"gacho10-what is the strength of these colonies-are they equal- cool RDY-B
and also can you give DEWPOINT temp -should be on weather forcast"


All three colonies were very strong going into winter.  Out of three colonies, the two outside ones still appear to be strong.  The one in the center appears to be weaker.  I can't see the cluster on the center one because they are away from the center hole.  They appear to be on frames 1,2,3 and 4.  The other two hives are clustered in the center feeding on the honey bottles.  The one in the center which I can't see I can only judge by looking at the wax capings accumulating on the SBB tray which I check every other day.  They also have a honey bottle but are not feeding from it.  That center colony is the one I placed insulation in the ventilated inner cover.

The following information is what I got from the weather map in my area:  I have a hard time understanding relative humidity and dew point.

Wind chill=10 deg. F
Humidity=52%
Dew Point=1 deg. F

That is today's weather and it has been so for approximately 3 days
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 12, 2010, 10:55:28 pm
OK-keep the data and coralte with the inside temps you are taking-hard data  :brian:
will shed some light on the VIC performance in varying conditions  ;) kep the data coming - :) RDY-B
looking good
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 13, 2010, 01:46:59 am
.
gaucho10 , I hope that you need not to give a report:" surgical operation succeeded but the customer died".

I have speeded up 7 years spring build up electrict heating + pollepatty. Last spring I ahde 2 hives where upper entrance was closed and seemengly hives had concensation moisture in corners and in the gap of cover and box.  BUT the brooding was huge in both hives. Upper boxes were warmer than in other hives and the brood area spreaded much wider than in other hives. I had 25 hives.

But If I keep open the upper entrance in cleansing flight, bees remember teir entranace and I cannot shut it any more. When they make their flyings, in cold weather they have not time to search another entrance if yhe original is closed.

However, my 7 years experience is that during spring bild up the heat is very important to bees and the greatest advantage take the biggest colonies.

+17C is the temp where bees start to ventilate the hive when heating. Under that they take advantage from heating cable.

*************

I look the need of ventilation from the number of ventilating bees,
When warm air rises up, it stays there and bees may control it.
If there is much opening, bees cannot control the air flow.




.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 13, 2010, 02:06:05 am
Finski,

I started this thread for the interest of anyone on this forum who would be interested in following, including myself.  I personally like to experiment with things.  Unless this topic becomes objectionable to anyone, I plan to report on my findings regardless of the outcome. 
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 13, 2010, 02:10:26 am
.
In summer bees  need a huge ventilation if they get a good nectar flow.
If ventilation is not enough, part of bees stop working and  make a beard
on the outer wall of the hive.

So, during main yield season lower main entrance in widely open.
Others have the whole bottom open with mesh floor  - very strange to me, because main opening is enough.

When I live in capital city, I am not setupping entrances all the time. Weather may change all the time and nights are very cool compared to days.

So, be carefull with those upper ventilation holes, if you need honey. If you just keep bees, it is same what you do with them. Many beekeepers love to calculate mites.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 13, 2010, 02:18:14 am
Finski,

I started this thread for the interest of anyone on this forum . 

Yes, I see that you are interested many kind of challenging things in nature.
Your animals tell it to me. I love to make many kindf of experiment just to see, how things are.

New thing is to me how to cultivate button mushrooms. I found huge Agaricus mushrooms in the middle of main road lawn.  I have made some steps forward to understand how they grow in the lawn.
The biggest diameter of the mushroom was the length of A4 paper.  (=button mushroom!). The taste was good.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 13, 2010, 02:42:21 am
Finski,

"In summer bees  need a huge ventilation if they get a good nectar flow.
If ventilation is not enough, part of bees stop working and  make a beard
on the outer wall of the hive."

This is the exact reason why two seasons ago I decided to go with a screen bottom board and a ventilated inner cover.

I started beekeeping back June of 1979.  The most number of hives I ever had was 9.   I kept bees in two locations.  4 of them were in the city on top of a garage roof and 5 of them were kept in the countryside.  They all handled differently due to their location but in all those years I never lost a colony.

One thing that I did follow religiously was to medicate ALL my bees, every season just like it said in "the book".  Back in 2000 I decided that I had enough with beekeeping and medication because I always thought that the chemicals somehow got into the honey and it was a lot of work as opposed to "fun".  I got rid of all my equipment and I decided to call it quits.

In 2008 I started reading about CCD.  Due to curiosity and the attraction to beekeeping I decided to start all over again, only this time I was going to use no chemicals whatsoever to see what would happen.  That is when I started reading on the internet about (IPM) Integrated Pest Management and the various beekeeping devices that beekeepers were using.  This REALLY got me interested in beekeeping and experimenting with equipment.  That is why I do what I do.

"So, during main yield season lower main entrance in widely open.
Others have the whole bottom open with mesh floor  - very strange to me, because main opening is enough."

True!  But that is the fun of this hobby/job.  What works for one person might not work for another.  All these people are using different techniques mainly to reduce bee mortality in one way or another.  The "Old Timer" beekeepers sometimes have a hard time breaking away from what they have been doing for so many years.  The new beekeepers, which is probably the majority in this forum, are trying to follow what they can learn to make this hobby successful.  I consider myself a "new" beekeeper because I am using "new" techniques that I recently discovered.  I agree with you about the size of the bottom openings.  BUT, I also like the idea of a SBB.  I keep the tray closed to maintain heat but I also have the ability to open it up "to prevent bearding" as an example.  I know that the SBB works for me.  Now I am trying to redesign the ventilated inner cover to my likings.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 13, 2010, 03:34:57 am
finski-this pic is from a double walled hive from finland they tell me it is still used today- :)
is this everyday for finland or is it a idea someone had-and do you know what the keeper in the pic is doing -it looks like some kind of bee-brush to gather bees from frames -i have sean motorized bee brushes from Europe-Can you comment on these things- :lol:
RDY-B

     (http://lappi-hunaja.fi/uploads/galleries/mehilaistenhoito/pesat8.jpg)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 13, 2010, 06:44:05 am
finski-this pic is from a double walled hive from finland they tell me it is still used today- :)


It is common structure even now, if you want to do your self the boxes. The lifetime of that structure maybe 30-40 years.
It is thin plywood and some insultaion inside or even emty space.

If you bye that kind of box, the price is 3 fold compared to polyhive box.

In summer we can use sigle wall boxes as supers.

Quote
-it looks like some kind of bee-brush to gather bees from frames -i have sean motorized bee brushes from Europe-Can you comment on these things- :lol:

Nothing lol in this picture eccept the suit which never has used before. It is so clean.

Small scale beekeepers like me use shaking, brush and cleaning board. I have 40 years old "original" beebrush.

Some use twigs of heather.

Professionals use often leaf blower.

This picture is from hobby beekeeper but very normal sight in Finland.

(http://www.elisanet.fi/jmjokine/hunaja/kuvat/sadonkorjuu.jpg)




Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 13, 2010, 07:00:51 am
Can you comment on these things- :lol:
RDY-B

     (http://lappi-hunaja.fi/uploads/galleries/mehilaistenhoito/pesat8.jpg)

However, that lol picture above is from a very famous  professional beekeeper who produce top quality honeys.

One explanation may be that if you produce "ecological" honey, you cannot use plastic hives.

"Lapland -Honey" It exports example honey to germany. Perhaps all must be clean to German markets.

http://www.polar-honey.com/ (http://www.polar-honey.com/)

The most famous honey comes from Lapland. It is cloudberry honey from Arctic Polar area from bogs.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Cloudberry_flowers.JPG (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Cloudberry_flowers.JPG)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: diggity on January 14, 2010, 04:26:02 pm
Very cool - what did you treat the wood with?  It looks so nice and glossy.  I paint my boxes because it's the only thing I know, but I'd prefer an oil or clearcoat of something non-toxic.

Thanks!
-Diggity
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 15, 2010, 08:33:23 am
diggity,

On this particular box I just threw a quick "splash" of whatever I had left over in my mixing can which is probably boiled linseed oil.  It happened to be sitting on my bench since last season but I just wanted to use it up.

Besides painting, there are other ways to protect your bee equipment.  Mind you, this looks good now and it will eventually darken BUT will be PRESERVED!  The actual formula for a good coating, if you are going to use linseed oil is as follows:

1 st. coat---------50% BOILED LINSEED OIL and 50% TURPENTINE with a splash of PENATROL.
2 nd. coat--------2/3 BOILED LINSEED OIL and 1/3 TURPENTINE with a splash of PENATROL.
3 rd. coat---------100% BOILED LINSEED OIL with a splash of PENATROL.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2010, 09:13:25 pm
Finski,

I started this thread for the interest of anyone on this forum who would be interested in following, including myself.  I personally like to experiment with things.  Unless this topic becomes objectionable to anyone, I plan to report on my findings regardless of the outcome. 

Please do !!!! Keep up the posting of any info that you put together no mater how small it may seem on this one. I like the idea of using the vented inner covers and trying different ways to see which ones have favorable outcomes. Now that we are gearing up for spring and putting equipment together it may have to be put on the to, do, list. LOL!!! ;)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 15, 2010, 09:54:56 pm
Sparky,

I did not forget.  I am in the process of taking readings of different variations.  I am only working with 3 hives so I have to make sure I do the right tests.  I'll keep you posted.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 17, 2010, 06:32:36 pm
OK folks...Here are my results...I know that some of you might get boared with this stuff....

To start off let me give you an idea of my INITIAL setup...

Hive #1 original (VIC) ventilated inner cover with no insulation.
This hive has the bees on top of the frames near the center hole around frames #2, #3, #4, #5.  I could just see the cluster on top.  I also found a very small amount of cappings on the bottom tray.  They take some bottled honey, but not much.

Hive #2 new VIC with no insulation.
This hive is my weakest hive...the one that I can't see the bees because they are somewhere on frames #1, #2, #3, #4.  I know that they are alive because I find the cappings accumulating on my (SBB) screened bottom board tray.  They have not touched the bottle honey yet.

Hive #3 original VIC with the side vent holes covered with insulation.  Don't forget...this is may original VIC with the upper entrance/vent hole underneath, within the upper brood chamber.  These bees have been right on top center hole for some time.  I notice no cappings on SBB tray.  They take the most bottle honey.


                Hive #1-Insulated               Hive #2-No insulation                        Hive #3-No insulation

01/13/10    Outside Temp=25 Deg. F
                Brood Box Temp. = 37 Deg. F         Brood Box Temp. = 28 Deg. F                       Brood Box Temp. = 55 Deg. F
                VIC Temp. = 26 Deg. F                 VIC Temp. = 26 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 32 Deg. F

01/14/10    VIC Temp. = 45 Deg. F                 VIC Temp. = 45 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 50 Deg. F

After insulating on all three VIC's...

01/16/10    VIC Temp. = 48 Deg. F                  VIC Temp. = 50 Deg. F                               VIC Temp. = 49 Deg. F

01/17/10    Outside Temp. = 39 Deg. F
                VIC Temp. = 40 Deg. F                  VIC Temp. = 47 Deg. F                                VIC Temp. = 40 Deg. F

Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 17, 2010, 07:31:00 pm
the #s anrt coresponding with the description -are they transposed :) RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 17, 2010, 08:23:39 pm
rdy-b,


I had to take a look at all this again to make sure it matched.  It is confusing BUT it is correct.

Let me explain it this way...


            Hive # 1                                       Hive #2                                    Hive #3

       Old VIC design                               New VIC design                         Old VIC design
        No insulation                                  No insulation                              Insulated
   Bees near center hole                         Bees not visible                 Bees blocking center hole
Some btl. honey consumption          no btl. honey consumption             Strictly on btl. honey
  Some cappings observed              Lots of cappings observed             No cappings observed
       VIC = 26 Deg. F                            VIC = 26 Deg. F                          VIC = 32 Deg. F
       VIC = 45 Deg. F                            VIC = 45 Deg. F                          VIC = 50 Deg. F

All VIC's insulated...

       VIC = 48 Deg. F                            VIC = 50 Deg. F                          VIC = 49 Deg. F
       VIC = 40 Deg. F                            VIC = 47 Deg. F                          VIC = 40 Deg. F

What I read from this is the following:

Hive #1 and #2 initially were not insulated and they lost a lot of heat through the VIC.  Hive #3 had an insulated VIC BUT no air flow because the upper entrance was in the brood box.  These bees still gave off more heat into the VIC because they are located right at the hole. That's why they still showed a higher temp.

AFTER insulating all 3 ventilated inner covers the results changed.  Now hive #2 (new VIC with entrance/vent hole within) had a higher temperature because the heat was flowing UP through the VIC and out the 3/8" x 2" hole.  Hive #1 and #2 had no air circulation because the VIC does not have an entrance/vent hole.  So....now you can say that the NEW VIC is warmer therefore it is loosing more warm air.  Not so...The original holes in my OLD VIC's and in all inner covers have the same size hole (~3/8" x 2").

So my conclusion is that if ANY 3/8" x 2" hole is going to loose the same amount of warm air, I rather have it go out "MY" design of a vented inner cover for several reasons.

First, the VIC acts as a warmer "ceiling".  a normal 3/4" inner cover would not be as warm.  Second, I have the option to TOP feed if I like.  You can't do that with a normal inner cover unless you install an additional box above.  Now you have created the same thing as my original VIC (no ventilation, no warm "ceiling", possibility of moisture/fungus growing in box.  Thirdly, if I wish I can include some type of absorbent INSIDE my VIC which I can remove occasionally after it absorbs moisture coming out of brood box.
And finally, which is my most important point, I can use this same VIC during the summer to create a good ventilation for my bees during HOT weather.


BTW...I have just built another VIC that includes a view window so that I can monitor the VIC temp W/O opening the top.  Just another feature...I am getting really bored I guess..... :-D

Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 18, 2010, 12:37:41 am
.
Sorry gaucho , but you cannot do science with 3 hives.

I wonder what advantage the noninsulated upper cover can give to bees?
You really are a wheel inventor.
I met 45 years ago a beekeeper who said that bees need only sackcloth as inner cover for winter.
Yes, this has been known for long time but it does not work so. We have among beekeepers all kind of life style indians.

Yes, in Alaska they do not use insulated boxes and then it is better to kill colonies at autumn and bye new ones in Spring.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 18, 2010, 04:49:16 am
Finski,

"Sorry gaucho , but you cannot do science with 3 hives."

I did!!!  I am still doing it!!!   How many keys did Benjamin Franklin use to prove his point (think electricity).  How many hives did Mr. Langstroth build to prove his point?  Did Christopher Columbus have to sail the oceans many times to prove that he is going to hit land by going west? Etc., etc., etc.


"I wonder what advantage the noninsulated upper cover can give to bees?"

Why are you wondering?  Can't you see that I got better results by having insulation in the ventilated inner covers?  I don't use insulation in the summer.  My experiment was to take readings between insulated and uninsulated VIC's to compare air flow into and out of new design VIC.  If you don't like ventilated inner covers then "don't buy one and don't build one".

 
"You really are a wheel inventor."

Finski, the wheel had already been invented...several thousand years ago from what I've read.


"I met 45 years ago a beekeeper who said that bees need only sackcloth as inner cover for winter.
Yes, this has been known for long time but it does not work so. We have among beekeepers all kind of life style indians."


I don't understand your point here. :roll:


"Yes, in Alaska they do not use insulated boxes and then it is better to kill colonies at autumn and bye new ones in Spring."

OK........I believe you...I am going to guess that beekeepers in Alaska also do not use ventilated inner covers.  What's your point?

Finski,  correct me if I am wrong but I feel a little aggression coming from your responces.  I am not arguing with you or anybody else for that matter.  As a matter of fact I actually agreed to some of your previous statements.  I just started this post for people who might be interested in reading about my "trials and tribulations" regarding a project I am working on.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: annette on January 18, 2010, 11:31:48 am
SBB and Ventilated Inner Covers for my bees.  It is working here!!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Sparky on January 18, 2010, 08:39:45 pm
Keep up the good work Rich. SBB and VIC here and so far so good. I took two hives and put SBB's that are only closed up in the middle and to the front end facing the entrance, under the slat racks and have notches in the other sides to let ventilate. Only one of the hives has any insulation to speak of in the new, made VIC with screen bottom and a piece of absorbant blanket on top of three, frame wedge strips to keep the girls from chewing on it. The insulation is only 1/2" thick with foil side down and notches cut along sides and near front side of hive. The other VIC of same design, has just frame wedge strips with absorbant blanket. The blanket material is just to divert any moisture to the outer edges because it is the same that I use under the metal hive stand beneath the stone to catch any oil from the moat around the post. It is a oil only absorbant. It will be of great interest to me in the spring to compare notes to see what the results are. Thanks Rich for your contributions !!!
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 18, 2010, 09:34:48 pm
Sparky, keep us posted on the absorbent material.  So far I had no need to use any type of absorbent material because I never had problems with my hives sweating.  Since I am trying a new type of VIC that wicks moisture up through the top I might eventually consider an absorbent.

I was actually thinking of building some very simple cages to fit into my new VIC's that would hold absorbent material.  The cage could be built out of 1/2" x 1/2" galv. wire to hold hay, paper, etc.  It could also be 1/8" galv. mesh to hold other material such as wood shavings, cat litter (if that is acceptable), etc.  The cage could be removed on a routine basis and replaced with new material.  The absorbent cage perhaps could be installed in lew of the side insulation foam.  The cage absorbent could act as a insulation.  Just an idea.

To get back to my VIC discussion...I have attached some pics of what I would call my New KingVIC model! :evil:

***Basically it is the original ventilated inner cover with the following changes:  1-Front entrance/vent hole raised above VIC floor, 2-No front screened vent holes, 3-Rear vent holes replaced by a glass viewing area to keep track of interior temperatures and food quantity, 4-Fully insulated walls and top for northern winters with 1" foam insulation including aluminum backing, 5-Screened vent holes located only on both long sides, 6-Interior mounted thermometer.

(http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3241/img0150ne.jpg) (http://img12.imageshack.us/i/img0150ne.jpg/)
Interior of the VIC showing the interior insulation, the rear glass view window and the wire coil which holds my 1/2 gal. Mason jar.

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/518/img0153b.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/img0153b.jpg/)
This pic shows the insulated top cover and the exterior view window with insulation in place.

(http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/8261/img0155ai.jpg) (http://img697.imageshack.us/i/img0155ai.jpg/)
Front view with top insulation and food jar in place.  Telescopic cover fits on top.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 18, 2010, 10:07:06 pm
YEEP that Be the king  :lol: to review why is the entrance above the floor-other than that are you going to make the observation glass slide looks big enough so your hand would fit in -RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 18, 2010, 10:27:28 pm
rdy-b,

"why is the entrance above the floor"

My theory, after my experiment this week, shows that by having the top entrance/vent hole (3/8" x 2") above the floor the moisture leaves the brood chamber through the VIC as opposed to through the brood chamber.  You may say "well, what's the difference" and the difference is that by leaving through the VIC it warms up the VIC creating an upper chamber of insulation.  Don't forget that this is my reasoning for winter use.  The VIC is great for summer ventilation as well.

 
"other than that are you going to make the observation glass slide looks big enough so your hand would fit in"

No, the view window is glass that has been ciliconed into the wood frame from the inside.  It is flush on the inside and has a foam insulation placed on the outside.  The foam insulation actually is inserted into a wood block for weathering prevention-I just did not include it in the pic.  Previously, when I had no insulation on my screened vents I could actually see the status of my Mason jars through the sides.  Now that it is insulated I just decided to include a view window so I don't have to remove the top covers.  This might be well over the heads of a lot of people but if you have the time as I do I guess you can create just about anything.  If the theory flies, I guess someone can mass-produce these for a profit.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Sparky on January 19, 2010, 07:36:59 pm
The New KingVIC model looks good Rich. I can see where it may definitely create a bit of a dead air space with just minimal air moving out the entrance to help keep a air exchange, to minimize moisture buildup. I think another benefit is that the heat around your feeder jar will keep the liquid warmer to encourage the bees to take it.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 19, 2010, 08:15:52 pm
Good point Sparky.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 21, 2010, 01:11:59 pm
Here are some new readings from this morning...

Outside temperature 19 deg. F @ 6AM
Hive #1---VIC temp. 38 deg. F
Hive #2---VIC temp. 48 deg. F
Hive #3---VIC temp. 32 deg. F

a few points to take into consideration...

Hive #1 has the old VIC with insulation on the walls but not on the top and the exit is within the brood chamber.  Bees are on top off-center and are taking honey feed and there are cappings on SBB slide tray.

Hive #2 has the new VIC with insulation all around (side walls and ceiling) exit is within the VIC.
This is my weak hive and I can't see the bees but I noticed the cappings on the SBB slide tray have moved from the rear-side to the front-center since I placed the heat tapes several days ago.  Does this mean that now there is more heat and the bees were able to shift to a new area in the hive with more food?  I don't know but that is what I am assuming.  They have not touched the bottle feeder yet.

Hive #3 has the old VIC with insulation on the walls but not on the top and the exit is within the brood chamber.  Bees are at top center hole.  They are feeding strictly on bottled honey and there are no cappings on SBB slide tray.

Also...several days ago I installed a heat tape in all three hives.  It produces approximately 3 Watts of heat per foot.
When I took the temperature this morning I stuck a 8" thermometer into the top exit holes on all three hives.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 21, 2010, 04:41:01 pm
I don't remember if I posted this before but here it is anyway.  This is a link to a paper describing an experiment done in Canada using SBB's for the control of Varroa mites.  Read it and you be the judge.  They designed the board so that the bottom tray could slide out as many designs include.  I will be redesigning the ones I have so as to accept another slide to insert and remove my "heat tapes" that I have installed recently.

http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf (http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf)

By-the-way.....if you are interested in formic acid and its use you can go to the main page of the above article at
http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/ (http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/)


You have a choice of English or French for your enjoyment.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 21, 2010, 07:54:07 pm
.
How many watts you hive gets heat in experiment?  How many feet you have the tape per hive?
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: rdy-b on January 21, 2010, 08:23:18 pm
Also...several days ago I installed a heat tape in all three hives.  It produces approximately 3 Watts of heat per foot.
When I took the temperature this morning I stuck a 8" thermometer into the top exit holes on all three hives.

How is this placed in the hive- :)  RDY-B
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Sparky on January 21, 2010, 09:09:11 pm
I don't remember if I posted this before but here it is anyway.  This is a link to a paper describing an experiment done in Canada using SBB's for the control of Varroa mites.  Read it and you be the judge.  They designed the board so that the bottom tray could slide out as many designs include.  I will be redesigning the ones I have so as to accept another slide to insert and remove my "heat tapes" that I have installed recently.

http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf (http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/articles/AV-BOTTOM%20BOARD.pdf)

By-the-way.....if you are interested in formic acid and its use you can go to the main page of the above article at
http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/ (http://www.reineschapleau.wd1.net/)


You have a choice of English or French for your enjoyment.
Thanks !! Rich. That was some pretty interesting reading. It has opened my eyes to other avenues of thinking. I have heard so many different things from different people, (par for most of beekeeps).
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 21, 2010, 09:14:47 pm
Finski,

The controller allows 3 Watts /ft. of tape.

I originally had 10 ft. of tape which I knew was not going to be enough to get all 3 hives hooked up.  This setup was from my "EasyHeat Fuse Plug.  I don't have all the information but I believe it is design to turn on at around 35 deg. F and turn off at 50 deg. F.  I then went and bought 20 more ft. with a new "Frostex" (Tyco) controller.  When I say "tape" it is not a flap piece of tape but a double wire encased in plastic and covered with a braided wire.  It is approximately 1/2" diameter.

Anyway, I took one controller with 10 ft. of tape and coiled it as seen in the following picture.

(http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/9298/heat1resize.jpg) (http://img638.imageshack.us/i/heat1resize.jpg/)

That's all 10 ft. coiled in my center hive (hive #2).  The other setup I pushed probably 5 ft. into the other two hives.  The remainder of the other 10 ft. was lost inside of piping leading to the hives.  Lets see if they are visible in the following pic.

(http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/614/heat5originalf.jpg) (http://img194.imageshack.us/i/heat5originalf.jpg/)

This is an older pic when I had all three hives connected to the same tape but the distance was too long to have enough wire to distribute enough heat to all hives.  The tape is fed through the electrical plastic pipe at the bottom of the hives.

Something to take into consideration...the instructions for spreading the tape on a water pipe calls for either wrapping the tape around the pipe or running straight runs.  The amount of wraps depends on the diameter of the pipe.  Also, the pipe and tape requires to be insulated so that the heat stays in the pipe and does not escape into the atmosphere.  In my case I don't care if the heat escapes, actually I want it to escape INTO the bottom of the hive.

Another thing to take into consideration.....if the heat tape shuts down at 50 deg. F it probably stays only shut down for a short time in this temperature.  There is actually some heat loss going through the plastic pipes.  I took the tape outside and held it in my hands while I had it plugged.  The tape ran continuously and felt warm to the touch but it did not get hot to the touch.

rdy-b,   the above picture should give you an idea of how I got it inside the hive.  I had to finagale the controller so that it would fit INSIDE the hive so as not to get wet.  I managed.


I have more pictures on my website at http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/ (http://www.beesbatsandbeyond.com/)

Go to the Bee Equipment page.  I am still in the process of adding information...so its not finished.
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: Finski on January 22, 2010, 08:46:44 am


Hive temp during winter/Latvia

http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/colony_temperature.htm (http://www.beekeeping.com/articles/us/colony_temperature.htm)
Title: Re: Vented Inner Cover
Post by: gaucho10 on January 22, 2010, 10:12:31 am
Finski,

Interesting paper and experiment.  a couple of points in reference to my three hives:

Hive #1 and #3 happen to be composed of bees and queen from feral colonies.  Not just an individual colony but several merged colonies that I removed during the summer months.  Some of the colonies where initially large and then merged with smaller/weaker colonies.  Some were removed too late in the season and would not have survived the winter therefore they were also merged with either Hive #1 or #3. They went into winter with frames that were "cut out" with minimal brood and pollen/honey.  Those bees moved to the top of the hive very early in the season.  Those are my stronger hives but I have to feed.

Hive #2 is my weak hive and that is the hive that I started last April with a purchased local NUC.  They took off really well and at the end of the season had full brood chamber loaded with bees, brood, pollen and honey.  I thought that they were going to be the once to survive the winter for sure.

According to the paper and I quote "colonies of honeybees start brood rearing because of influence of circumstances".

I do not know what my hives' brood conditions are like at the moment but I agree with the above statement.  As far as those 6 time periods mentioned in the report for brood rearing I think are interesting but probably do not pertain to my hive #1 and hive #3.  These hives have actually been disrupted in their their cycle-including food supply, winter period starting low (no food at bottom must come to the top).  I will definitely keep this information to compare my next-season bees.